What would you do and where would you go for help...

[plain jane]

if your child was having difficulties in math that were beyond your ability to diagnose and help them?

 

My 11yo is going into 7th grade this year. I have posted so many times about her difficulties with math and I need to throw in the towel. I simply can't help her. I have a friend who is a PS teacher and I have asked her to come and take a look at her work and we have discussed her issues but she has been unable to offer and sort of support. (she is supportive of hs'ing BTW, if that matters).

 

We did SM math through 5a with dd when she started hitting major road blocks. She just can't handle the mathematical thinking that SM required. So we switched to Saxon 5/4. She did that followed by 6/5 and this year began the year with 7/6. Saxon was much easier for her but the problems continued. Out of the 30-32 questions on each lesson she would get 24-26 correct. Every. Single. Day. They were never the same type of question and it was random, although usually it was towards the end of the lesson. It's like she just gave up trying to work and couldn't care less if she got the last 8 questions correct or not. I always made her go back and do all corrections and checked for understanding but the mistakes continued.

 

Some mistakes were due to her not copying the question properly (writing 1456 instead of 1465). Some were because she tuned out and did the wrong operation (subtracted instead of added). Some were computation because she made dumb mistakes (8+5+1=13). And the minority of them were questions she didn't have a full understanding of. Problem is, these all added up to her getting between 70% and 80% on each lesson. Some lessons were so bad she was getting 60%-70%. I do not find this is acceptable.

 

She did have issues with insomnia and I chalked some of the issues to lack of sleep the night before. I know this was the cause. Problem is, the issues continued for 2 years now. Now it is like she is completely incapable of scoring over 90% on any lesson. Again, most of it was ridiculous mistakes. Or, I would get her to explain to me how to solve a problem, she'd explain, get it right and then proceed to do it wrong in the book.

 

I am at the point with this child where I would like to jump off a cliff.

 

She spouts off things before thinking. All. The. Time. Just 2 min ago I asked her if 125 was smaller or bigger than 90 (we were talking about angles) Her answer: an immediate "smah.... bigger". She is like this all the time. Just spouts whatever is at the top of her head with no thought. Problem is she does this with her math as well. Writes down whatever stinking answer comes to her head and to heck with whether it makes sense or not.

 

Currently we are working on angles and triangles in SM5b. Before she starts I ask her what a right angle equals, what a straight angle equals and what a triangle equals. She knows all this with ease.

 

She can solve for the unknown angle on a line and if there are 2 angles on a triangle she can figure out the 3rd. We're off to a good start, right? Nope.

 

Now we add in triangles with an exterior angle. There is one angle of the triangle given, plus the exterior angle. Dd knows that a straight angle equals 180 and how to solve for the inside angle. But can she do this when it is combined into a triangle. Nope. Not a clue. Not. a. single. clue. Not even when we go over again that she knows all the information she needs to know. Ok. I help her out with that part. Now she has the 2 interior angles and can solve for the third, right? Well, one would think. So she does. She does 180 - (sum of two interior angles) and comes up with the third angle. YAY DD!! Right??? Oh no. Not my dd. Now dd has become confused. Never mind we have talked about how to label angles over and over and over again. Never mind that she has solved the problem. Oh no. Dd things that solving for Angle ABC means the sum of the angles A+B+C. :blink: What the heck????? SHE KNOWS BETTER THAN THIS. But now she is clearly lost. So what does dd do?? She adds up the angle A (which was already given in the problem) and angle B (which was the interior angle with the exterior angle measurement provided. She decides THIS is the answer to the problem. Never mind that she's only giving me a number that is angle A+B together (what happened to C if she thought she had to add all 3??? Never mind that she knows that 3 angles in a triangle equal 180. :banghead:

 

 

It all makes me insane and I have come to realize that this is FAR beyond my abilities to help.

 

We can do a page of problems together (about 6 in SM) She can get them right. WE go on to a slightly more advanced concept (like the ones above with exterior angles) She can muddle through and get them eventually (with my help) THEN she will come back to a page that is like the original problems (just solve for the one inside triangle angle) and she will HAVE NO CLUE HOW TO DO IT. :blink:

 

So where do I go? What do I do? Clearly this is not the fault of a program. She thought her problems with getting so many questions wrong were with Saxon because she never really understood what she was doing. I gave her a placement test she went back to SM and we did 5a. It went gloriously at first. Probably the first 2 months. And then we are back to same old mistakes. Over and over and over.

 

It is the same thing all the time. She can know what the parts are but can't put them together to solve a bigger problem. We are doing triangles with an exterior angle. She knows how to label triangles and angles. We have done example after example after example. Yet, when she gets to a problem with the question at the end that says solve for Angle PQR .... I ask her which angle is PQR, and she points out PQS. :blink: :banghead: Noooooooooooooooooo

 

I have decided that I am out of my realm with her. We have talked about what she perceives is the problem. She can't answer me. I can't tell if she truly can't do a two step problem or if she is just mentally lazy. I do not understand why every time I ask her a question she just spouts off whatever comes first to her mind and to heck with whether it is right or not (for example, 125 being smaller than 90). She is like this all the time. She can't remember directions from one minute to the next. She can't recall math instruction from one day to the next. She's very smart. Her LA skills are off the charts good (high school level, my teacher friend says).

 

I no longer know how to help her with math. I get so frustrated I want to scream. There is no program that is going to save her. Doing math with her is like all the lights are on but there is nobody home.

 

So tell me before I go insane. What do I do with this child?

 

1. Give up and send her to PS to get math. Every other subject goes well except for math but if that's what it takes then so be it.

 

2. Some sort of educational assessment and look for learning disability. What sort of professional do I need? Please be very specific.

 

3. Some sort of developmental assessment and look for ADHD (strongly suspect this) and medicate her if so?

 

4. Some sort of tutoring service for math. Kumon? Sylvan? Please be specific which and why or what other options I have.

 

 

I need to get this child doing better than she is. You can give her any 30 math problems and she will get many wrong, without fail. Doesn't matter difficulty or grade level. She just "has" to get something wrong. Careless mistakes abound. Yes, there is some lack of understanding but I can't find it through all the careless mistakes. She is never honest with me (or herself for that matter) and always "claims" to understand. I think she thinks she does but really she doesn't. but I can't help her if she won't say she doesn't understand or what it is she doesn't understand.

 

I'm really starting to freak out here. Is this something I should be able to know what is going on and why? Is this an indication that I am a bad teacher for her and she should be in PS? I'm open to the reality that this is the answer. That a good teacher would know what is going on. But my teacher friend, who has come out several times, doesn't know what to do either. :( THing is, her marks aren't so bad that she would be failing in school but they are definitely sub-par and I want so much more for her. Not because I am pushing for excellence but because I think she is capable of more but I don't understand why she is getting so many things wrong.

 

Does any of this make sense? I think teaching math to this child makes me cry, not her.

[Arcadia]

She did have issues with insomnia and I chalked some of the issues to lack of sleep the night before. I know this was the cause. Problem is, the issues continued for 2 years now.

......

1. Give up and send her to PS to get math. Every other subject goes well except for math but if that's what it takes then so be it.

...

4. Some sort of tutoring service for math. Kumon? Sylvan? Please be specific which and why or what other options I have.

 

 

Has she had insomnia issues for two years now? I'll try to get help to find out the root cause of the insomnia as that would help a lot regardless of subjects.

 

PS won't solve your math problem. The class size is too big for your daughter to get the help/attention she need. PS is more useful for kids that need peer pressure to do better, does not sound like your daughter's case.

 

Tutoring would help but I would look for a tutor who has lots of experience with remedial math. Sylvan does tutoring in groups of three students so if your child gets distracted easily, that might not be a good match. I don't know how Kumon works for middle school so I can't comment.

 

If your daughter likes videos, for a breather she might enjoy the Chapter 10 videos from AoPS prealgebra.

http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Videos/index.php?type=prealgebra

[plain jane]

Has she had insomnia issues for two years now? I'll try to get help to find out the root cause of the insomnia as that would help a lot regardless of subjects.

 

PS won't solve your math problem. The class size is too big for your daughter to get the help/attention she need. PS is more useful for kids that need peer pressure to do better, does not sound like your daughter's case.

 

Tutoring would help but I would look for a tutor who has lots of experience with remedial math. Sylvan does tutoring in groups of three students so if your child gets distracted easily, that might not be a good match. I don't know how Kumon works for middle school so I can't comment.

 

If your daughter likes videos, for a breather she might enjoy the Chapter 10 videos from AoPS prealgebra.

http://www.artofprob...type=prealgebra

 

 

Sorry, no not insomnia for 2 years. Issues with math have continued for 2 years.

 

She is VERY easily distracted. Sounds like Sylvan may not work so well.

 

Thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate you taking the time to read. She doesn't seem to like videos and to be honest, I think she tunes out easily.

[Arcadia]

In that case I would look into evaluations for ADHD and also look into a one to one math tutor at a tuition center or a tutor's home if possible. Some kids are less distracted in a "sterile" tuition center room than at home and she would need a one-to-one so as not to be distracted by other kids.

 

I have no experience with ADHD so found you some old threads that are useful

http://forums.welltr...dhd-evaluation/

http://forums.welltr...ons-re-addadhd/

[Lori D.]

Has she had insomnia issues for two years now? I'll try to get help to find out the root cause of the insomnia as that would help a lot regardless of subjects.

 

PS won't solve your math problem. The class size is too big for your daughter to get the help/attention she need. PS is more useful for kids that need peer pressure to do better, does not sound like your daughter's case.

 

Tutoring would help but I would look for a tutor who has lots of experience with remedial math. Sylvan does tutoring in groups of three students so if your child gets distracted easily, that might not be a good match. I don't know how Kumon works for middle school so I can't comment.

 

If your daughter likes videos, for a breather she might enjoy the Chapter 10 videos from AoPS prealgebra.

http://www.artofprob...type=prealgebra

 

 

:grouphug:

 

Totally agree with Arcadia -- sounds like a tutor who has lots of experience with remedial math AND with flighty students is your best bet. Not only will the tutor have more ideas for how to help your DD connect with math, but it takes you out of the equation and the stress it's putting on you personally and on your relationship with DD.

 

Also, I'd look into some things to help increase focus and concentration:

- no screen time for 1-2 hours before bed time to let the brain calm down (TV, computer, ebook, i-pad, cell phone, etc.)

- regular aerobic exercise/activity (30-45 minutes/session, 4-5 days a week) -- swim team or swimming laps is especially good -- helps throw off stress, improves sleep, helps focus; what about 30 minutes of running or brisk walking every morning before school starts -- maybe do it together for special mom & DD time

- cut out all sugar, sodas, food dyes, and processed foods

- try cutting out dairy and gluten to see if a possible food intolerance is interfering with concentration

- try fish oil and evening primrose oil for sources of essential fatty acids for improving brain function/concentration (Dianne Craft article)

- Dianne Craft's writing 8s and the arm figure 8s helped a bit with increasing left-right brain hemisphere connections for better concentration and memory; you might also start each day with a few minutes of left-right marching in place (as right knee lifts high, swing left arm forward and high, and as right leg goes down, swing left arm back; repeat with left leg/right arm, at a regular, normal speed marching pace)

- a half a cup of coffee often helped my mildly ADD DS settle down and be able to focus -- I just didn't do it very often because I didn't want to encourage a caffeine addiction for him

 

Finally, 11yo is right in that time frame when girls lose their brains as their bodies are maturing and they are getting dumps of hormones that make academics and concentration extremely difficult. A sign of that may be the speaking without thinking you mentioned. And for that, you just have to persevere with patience to get through that stage. Alas.

 

But most of all, I would get a tutor who is a good match for DD to work with her one-on-one each week. BEST of luck in quickly finding the successful path for your DD's math journey! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[plain jane]

How does one find a good math tutor? Ack. :(

[Lori D.]

How does one find a good math tutor? Ack. :(

 

 

 

- Ask friends for recommendations.

- Can you ask home schoolers or parents of public school students who have students similar to DD for recommendations?

- Are you part of a homeschool group, or can you access your state homeschool group, that has a website with resources, or a forum for asking for recommendations? -- Sometimes another homeschooling parent is or was a math teacher and could be a perfect match for your DD.

- A local tutoring center -- ask for recommendations.

- Online search for a local tutor; these appear to specialize in elementary-aged students: Care.com; Tutor Select

 

 

You'll want to prepare information in advance for the tutor:

- define your goals clearly/specifically in advance so the tutor can gauge price, # of sessions, etc.

- write out a "background" of your DD's math history/abilities/weaknesses to help the tutor see if they are going to fit well with DD -- what math programs you've used and what has worked/not worked for DD and why; what her learning style appears to be; etc. (like your initial post in this thread)

 

 

You'd also want to have a list of questions:

- cost/time of session

- does the tutor come to you or do you go to the tutor (and which would help DD focus better)

- does the tutor work with your curriculum (and do you want to stick with this program, or do you want to switch)

- what is the tutor's background in math? in tutoring? in education? with children (i.e., what age do they work best with)?

- how much experience does the tutor have in tutoring math with students this age?

- is the tutor enthusiastic? appear to enjoy tutoring? approachable and friendly in attitude toward DD?

- does the tutor do assessments to determine weak areas in the student

- does the tutor allow several sessions to see if this is going to be a good match before making a long-term commitment

 

While this is geared for older students, this article may help: How to Find a Good Tutor

[plain jane]

Have you looked into dyscalculia?

 

Not much but it is something I am wondering about with her. How would I go about figuring out if this is the issue? Do I need some sort of educational assessment done?

[Caroline]

How does one find a good math tutor? Ack. :(

 

 

Many public schools have these kind of resources on their websites under the counseling information. It is a place to start. I would do extensive interviewing with and without your daughter present. You will want the tutor to be someone she will trust and work well with.

[WishboneDawn]

I would be looking at LDs and ADD. I'm in the process of getting my son diagnosed with Inattentive ADD and boy, she sure sounds like him. After all you've done to address the math issue you may need to consider a wider view.

[TarynB]

You've received terrific advice specific to math already. One more idea I'll throw out there, consider looking at the book I've linked below and see if any of what it talks about resonates with you regarding your DD. If it does, this book gives tons of practical advice. I'm definitely not saying your DD has ADHD, but kids (and adults) with ADHD often need help tuning up their "executive skills" - not executive as in CEO, but as in executing and succeeding at certain tasks, i.e., staying focused, resisting impulses to act or speak immediately, learning from mistakes, etc. (I've also learned that others besides those with ADHD also have concerns with "executive skills", BTW.) Anyway, this book was very helpful for my niece (who is close to your DD's age and has similar concerns) and her parents.

 

Smart But Scattered: The Revolutionary "Executive Skills" Approach to Helping Kids Reach Their Potential

 

:grouphug:

[Lori D.]

You've received terrific advice specific to math already. One more idea I'll throw out there, consider looking at the book I've linked below and see if any of what it talks about resonates with you regarding your DD. If it does, this book gives tons of practical advice. I'm definitely not saying your DD has ADHD, but kids (and adults) with ADHD often need help tuning up their "executive skills" - not executive as in CEO, but as in executing and succeeding at certain tasks, i.e., staying focused, resisting impulses to act or speak immediately, learning from mistakes, etc. (I've also learned that others besides those with ADHD also have concerns with "executive skills", BTW.) Anyway, this book was very helpful for my niece (who is close to your DD's age and has similar concerns) and her parents.

 

Smart But Scattered: The Revolutionary "Executive Skills" Approach to Helping Kids Reach Their Potential

 

:grouphug:

 

Wow, I wish I'd known about this book for our DS years ago!

 

 

Also, I just wanted to add, Plain Jane, that medication for focus can be a godsend for many students! And, it does not have to be for life -- sometimes, just a few years in those middle school/early high school years while the student is having to jump up in level of difficulty of work, before their brains manage to develop those executive skills taryn referred to. I know several students for whom ADD meds really helped them bridge that gap for just a few years. It really was a huge boost to their confidence and self-esteem, as well, finally being able to concentrate and succeed and so they stopped feeling "stupid" and either being angry or depressed/giving up.

 

We were able to use some of those helps I listed above with our DS, as he absolutely refused to go for testing, get tutoring, or consider meds... sigh... However, coupled with maturing, some of those things I listed to help with focus/concentration DID help.

 

BEST of luck in quickly getting to the root of the problem and how best to address it! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[thebacabunch]

When does dd turn 12? 11 is a young 7th grader. Also, my add daughter takes caffeine pills to help her focus. Works like a charm.

[unsinkable]

who was the psychologist who tested your 3rd grader and labeled her as gifted?

 

You could go back to that person.

 

Or you could go to a neuropsychologist and have testing done.

 

I know you've been struggling with your DD for years and in some threads you've mentioned using programs that you didn't mention using in others.

 

But my gut instinct is you are jumping all over in with too many different programs. The programs are not at an appropriate level for your DD's ability. Two years ago, you wrote she was in Saxon 65 at 9 years old and she wasn't handling it.

 

I don't know how or when she has the time to get through all the programs you've said she's done in a throrough manner. If she has a LD, it can't be helping to whip through program after program. Then you mentioned in another thread planning on doing Singapore 6a and 6 b over summer and fall. Those are meant to be done over a year.

[AimeeM]

If your daughter is 11, she (like my daughter) is going to be a young 7th grader - please take that into account. It isn't uncommon for maturity to take a bit when they're on the younger end of the "class".

With that said, what you've described is my daughter to a tee. She's actually very good at math, but she is also dyslexic and has pretty significant working memory problems.

Oh, and she's lazy. She's bright and lazy (yes, I know "lazy" is a bad word here, but I've come to terms with it, lol!).

 

In your situation, I would have an eval done for learning differences.

[AimeeM]

 

Yes. I'm not sure who would be doing the assessment in the US, but I guess your school district or insurance company could help? I have dyscalculia, and what you are describing sounds a lot like it.

 

Unless she's a lucky duck with stellar insurance (and even then it may not be), she may be on her own for an eval.

OP - ask your ped for a referral to a neuropsych or educational psychologist who can do the eval.

Here, the public schools do not evaluate for LDs (at least not homeschoolers; not sure about public schoolers) and insurance doesn't cover any of the evals.

[AimeeM]

 

That just shows how ignorant I am about how stuff works in the US. Here, dyscalculia, dyslexia and other learning differences are diagnosed by an "ortho-pedagogue", usually through the public school system. Regardless of who does the eval, knowing about dyscalculia can be extremely liberating to both children and parents. A correct diagnosis not only finally explains "what is wrong" and possibly stops math torture :), it also prevents misdiagnosis of ADHD and other LDs.

I completely agree about having a dx. Unfortunately they are so pricey here (around $1800 here for a full educational/neuropsych eval) that it's out of reach for many. Our schools (in our state) do not even recognize "dyslexia" as a learning disability.

[unsinkable]

 

 

That just shows how ignorant I am about how stuff works in the US. Here, dyscalculia, dyslexia and other learning differences are diagnosed by an "ortho-pedagogue", usually through the public school system. Regardless of who does the eval, knowing about dyscalculia can be extremely liberating to both children and parents. A correct diagnosis not only finally explains "what is wrong" and possibly stops math torture :), it also prevents misdiagnosis of ADHD and other LDs.

 

Or Jane's DD could have ADD and a math education that was inappropriate for her age and ability.

[plain jane]

who was the psychologist who tested your 3rd grader and labeled her as gifted?

 

You could go back to that person.

 

Or you could go to a neuropsychologist and have testing done.

 

I know you've been struggling with your DD for years and in some threads you've mentioned using programs that you didn't mention using in others.

 

But my gut instinct is you are jumping all over in with too many different programs. The programs are not at an appropriate level for your DD's ability. Two years ago, you wrote she was in Saxon 65 at 9 years old and she wasn't handling it.

 

I don't know how or when she has the time to get through all the programs you've said she's done in a throrough manner. If she has a LD, it can't be helping to whip through program after program. Then you mentioned in another thread planning on doing Singapore 6a and 6 b over summer and fall. Those are meant to be done over a year.

 

 

I do appreciate your help. I think things are getting lost between posts and perhaps I am not being clear.

 

I could be wrong but I don't feel I am jumping all over the place with too many different programs. We have used SM since 1st grade and I did supplement with Horizons to cover a few extra topics. She did SM in its entirety and only the questions in Horizons I wanted to cover.

 

In grade 5 we started with SM5a but found it difficult so we switched to Saxon. She tested into 7/6 according to their placement test but I didn't feel that was appropriate for her so we did 6/5. Yes, she was 9 but she was in 5th and turned 10 shortly after (fall birthday, I must have posted before her birthday). We did Saxon 6/5 for the year. Then we started with Saxon 7/6 this year in 6th. In January she asked to go back to SM so I went back with her SM5a. She was half way through the 7/6 book, not anywhere near done it. She took the placement test and tested over 85% (passing) for 5a but I decided to do it with her at a slightly higher pace because she passed out of it I figured she knew the concepts but SM does things quite different from Saxon and I wanted to make sure things were solid. We did one hour of math in the morning and a half hour as "homework" in the evening. She didn't like the idea of being in a 5a book so was agreeable to this. We finished the entire textbook, the workbook and about 3/4 of the tests in the test book doing the hour of math in the morning and 1/2 hour homework. In a PS situation she would have about that much work and neither of us felt she was being "pushed" She tested out of the level, meaning, I would think, that she knew the material, so I don't think it's outlandish to think she would get through it at a slightly faster pace. We are currently in 5b.

 

I have 4 other kids so yes, I have used other math programs but not with this dd. We did try MM for a month but she didn't like it so we went back and started at the beginning of the same year with SM. I believe that was 4th so she did several chapters of the MM4a (instead of SM4a) and when she didn't like it we went back and did SM4a from the beginning. I could be remembering wrong. It may have been 3rd.

 

I don't see how we are whipping through programs? She does math every single day without fail and so we do get lessons done. :confused1: I realize 6a and 6b are meant for an entire year. My plan with dd was to work for 60 min each day this summer (weekends included) and I figured she could get done by the end of fall. Perhaps that was ambitious of me. She was a bit disappointed to be "behind" in math and asked if we could try to "catch" up.

 

I've tried two programs with her, doing math for at least an hour per day. I don't think that's overly outrageous. :confused1:

 

ETA: Whoops. I did forget something. She did do the entire Keys to Fractions booklets. That took two months last year. We did math through the summer and she finished off 6/5 prior to beginning 7/6 this year. I don't rush through math but we do it daily, even through the summer although we do miss summer days here and there if we meet with friends first thing in the morning. I don't see the Keys to Fractions book as jumping around though. I saw it as a supplement because she was having a harder time staying on top of all the fractions concepts. When she finished the Key to Fractions book we picked back up where we were in 6/5 and finished it off.

[Meriwether]

 

 

Or Jane's DD could have ADD and a math education that was inappropriate for her age and ability.

 

I can't speak to Jane's Dd's ability, but I'm not sure why you think Saxon 6/5 is inappropriate for a 9yo. Many people use Saxon 1 in K and would consequently have a 9yo using 6/5. I had one child complete it as an 8yo and two on track to do it as 9yos.

[unsinkable]

 

 

I can't speak to Jane's Dd's ability, but I'm not sure why you think Saxon 6/5 is inappropriate for a 9yo. Many people use Saxon 1 in K and would consequently have a 9yo using 6/5. I had one child complete it as an 8yo and two on track to do it as 9yos.

 

Because of the post Jane wrote back then. Her DD was struggling in it.

 

It sounds like it worked for your children.

[unsinkable]

 

 

 

I do appreciate your help. I think things are getting lost between posts and perhaps I am not being clear.

 

I could be wrong but I don't feel I am jumping all over the place with too many different programs. We have used SM since 1st grade and I did supplement with Horizons to cover a few extra topics. She did SM in its entirety and only the questions in Horizons I wanted to cover.

 

In grade 5 we started with SM5a but found it difficult so we switched to Saxon. She tested into 7/6 according to their placement test but I didn't feel that was appropriate for her so we did 6/5. Yes, she was 9 but she was in 5th and turned 10 shortly after (fall birthday, I must have posted before her birthday). We did Saxon 6/5 for the year. Then we started with Saxon 7/6 this year in 6th. In January she asked to go back to SM so I went back with her SM5a. She was half way through the 7/6 book, not anywhere near done it. She took the placement test and tested over 85% (passing) for 5a but I decided to do it with her at a slightly higher pace. We did one hour of math in the morning and a half hour as "homework" in the evening. She didn't like the idea of being in a 5a book so was agreeable to this. We finished the entire textbook, the workbook and about 3/4 of the tests in the test book doing the hour of math in the morning and 1/2 hour homework. In a PS situation she would have about that much work and neither of us felt she was being "pushed" We are currently in 5b.

 

I have 4 other kids so yes, I have used other math programs but not with this dd. We did try MM for a month but she didn't like it so we went back and started at the beginning of the same year with SM. I believe that was 4th so she did several chapters of the MM4a (instead of SM4a) and when she didn't like it we went back and did SM4a from the beginning.

 

I don't see how we are whipping through programs? She does math every single day without fail and so we do get lessons done. :confused1: I realize 6a and 6b are meant for an entire year. My plan with dd was to work for 60 min each day this summer (weekends included) and I figured she could get done by the end of fall. Perhaps that was ambitious of me. She was a bit disappointed to be "behind" in math and asked if we could try to "catch" up.

 

I've tried two programs with her, doing math for at least an hour per day. I don't think that's overly outrageous. :confused1:

 

I must be confused because the first post in this thread you said she did Saxon 54. And I swear in other threads you said you also did the Key to...books.

 

I might have misunderstood how many switches there have been. But IME, kids need down time too, to absorb what they've learned. And in our family, at 11 years old kids didn't think/know/discussed being behind. I know that is a personal situation but I can't see how that pressure would help a very young girl already struggling in math.

 

[plain jane]

I must be confused because the first post in this thread you said she did Saxon 54. And I swear in other threads you said you also did the Key to...books.

 

I might have misunderstood how many switches there have been. But IME, kids need down time too, to absorb what they've learned. And in our family, at 11 years old kids didn't think/know/discussed being behind. I know that is a personal situation but I can't see how that pressure would help a very young girl already struggling in math.

 

 

 

Sorry. That was my typo. I was kind of upset when I posted.

 

I know I've failed her somehow but I have tried so dang hard to not switch from curriculum to curriculum with her. I made that promise to myself when we started homeschooling (that we wouldn't jump around in math) and I did everything I could to stick to it. I did go back and edit that she did do Keys to Fractions but that was as a supplement. A two month "break" from Saxon if you will. But once she was done we picked up where we left on and kept ploughing through.

[AK_Mom4]

At this point, I would absolutely look for a one-on-one tutor for math. I know that they have them here thru Sylvan or Kumon or by calling the Education department at the university. Even Craigslist has ads for tutors. Shop around for one that has experience working with dyslexic and/or ADD students - even if your kiddo doesn't have either of those diagnoses because the tutor should have some tricks in their tool bag that can be useful here. There are verbal tricks she can learn to help with the math problems - especially since her language skills are strong. Mnemonics, estimation and approximation, and self-check are all tricks she can use to break thru that "bad answer" routine.

 

Does she self-check her work? I usually incent DD12 with an m&m for each error she finds on her own before I correct her work. We also do the problems one-at-a-time when silly mistakes start creeping in - she works the problem, she checks the problem, then she tells me the answer and I look it up. It is more time consuming, but it prevents "dumb mistakes" from taking over our day. We also turn the notebook sideways so the numbers stay in line when she writes out the problems.

 

In the longer term, I would probably look for some testing for her if you strongly suspect ADHD or something else. IMO there is freedom in knowing what you are dealing with.

[FairProspects]

I'd be headed to a neuropsych also. All of what you described are not what I would call lazy errors but can be explained by procedural processing issues. If this has been going on for awhile, she may have hit the wall with what she can compensate for and you are going to need to make some adjustments to work with her processing.

 

It is time to go get evals. It doesn't sound like it is anything you did or didn't do, it is just who she is and with the evals you can learn to work with her instead of against her so you both don't keep hitting these walls.

[unsinkable]

 

 

 

Sorry. That was my typo. I was kind of upset when I posted.

 

I know I've failed her somehow but I have tried so dang hard to not switch from curriculum to curriculum with her. I made that promise to myself when we started homeschooling (that we wouldn't jump around in math) and I did everything I could to stick to it. I did go back and edit that she did do Keys to Fractions but that was as a supplement. A two month "break" from Saxon if you will. But once she was done we picked up where we left on and kept ploughing through.

 

 

I don't think you've failed her. I just am of the mindset that if something isn't working, I would slow down, back up, repeat, review and let it soak. I would do less, you chose to do more.

 

She might have a Nonverbal Learning Disorder (which is not dyslexia). Especially since you said she excels in Language Arts. Verbal stuff is a strength for people with Nonverbal LDs.

 

She might just be shouting out the first thing that comes to her head bc she processes better by talking. Or because she is impulsive. Or because she just wants to get through the lesson or problem or whatever.

[Corraleno]

We have talked about what she perceives is the problem. She can't answer me.

 

Of course she can't — how many 11 year olds are capable of diagnosing their own LDs? :confused1:

 

This child clearly has LDs, and she needs to be professionally evaluated. If you cannot afford a neuropsych, see if you can find an "educational testing" professional; they can administer many of the same tests (WISC, Woodcock-Johnson, etc.) and they are often considerably less expensive. In my city, the neuropsych was about $2000 and had a 9-month waiting list; the educational testing service was under $600 and I was able to get an appointment in less than a month. It is not as thorough, but if you find someone with experience with 2E kids, it's a start. You may want to particularly look at auditory, sequential processing, and working memory issues.

 

Without knowing exactly what the issues are, you cannot solve these problems by switching math programs, sending her to PS, hiring a tutor, or punishing her. Your posts about her here are a litany of how her issues: drive you insane ... make you want to scream ... annoy the heck out of you ... make you want to jump off a cliff ... etc. I understand the frustration, because I have a son with very similar issues, but jeez, how do you think she feels? If you think it's frustrating to be her teacher, imagine how much more frustrating it is to BE her — and to have her mother/teacher basically sending the message, over and over, of "What the heck is wrong with you? Why can't you do this simple thing? You're making me insane!"

 

In a thread back in February, a couple of people recommended that you read The Mislabeled Child. I'm guessing, based on the current thread, that you haven't read it yet. Please do — it specifically addresses many of the issues your DD has, including the unique issues of 2E kids, and it will give you the background you need in order to get the most out of your DD's evaluation. Many 2E kids go undiagnosed because their giftedness compensates just enough for the LDs that they are never properly evaluated, and many others are misdiagnosed with ADD when the real issues are more subtle and complex.

 

Jackie

[unsinkable]

I agree, Jackie, that an eval is in order.

 

Jane's DD has to be just as frustrated and concerned as Jane, but more so because she is only 12 and doesn't have the perspective of an adult.

 

I know it is not easy. I have my own issues and behavior with my DS that I am not proud of since he started high school and was diagnosed with NLD. But it is nothing compared to his stress. And I've got to keep him as the focus.

[LucyStoner]

When does dd turn 12? 11 is a young 7th grader. Also, my add daughter takes caffeine pills to help her focus. Works like a charm.

 

Caffeine commonly used for those who are unknowingly self medicating ADD or ADHD. My husband used to mainline coffee until he was diagnosed as an adult with ADD and started taking a stimulant. Suddenly, his need for it was erased. I am sure the lining of his stomach was grateful for the break from drowning in coffee acid.

 

To the OP, yes I would see someone about a learning disability evaluation ASAP. The longer you wait, the longer she struggles and if she does have a LD or ADHD, she will do so much better with the proper treatment. My husband is truly brilliant and well educated. Yet his first go at college, he flunked out. Had his parents realized his need for medical help earlier, he would have had a much more productive time of it in school from the get go.

[plain jane]

I just wanted to add that I appreciate everyone's input. I know I have had a lot of threads here. Y'all are my sounding board when I need a friend. I walk away, give dd a break and post here when I can't cope. I don't want to freak on her and so I guess I freak on y'all. Sometimes I just need an ear to talk to. It hurts me deeply to see dd struggle so much and I feel so helpless at times. It's months to get into an eval here and lots of money, as you all know. This is all new to me.

 

I do try to have good discussions with her about how to notice careless mistakes and what causes her to make them. I never expected her to diagnose herself. I just talk with her to try to get her perspective. We discuss why math is important and what can be done to help her with things. I also try to understand why the mistakes are happening. Is she tired? Bored? Ambivalent?

 

This is my first experience with something like this and it wasnt obvious to me that we are dealing with an LD. I'd have to go back and re read but a lot of the responses I got didn't lead me to immediately get worked up about an LD. Maybe it should have been. I have talked to the lady who did my other child's eval and she did say nothing was jumping out at her.

 

Dd does seem to cope well enough to get passing grades and yes, sometimes things clear up and she does great for months at a time. She's not consistent with her struggles.

 

Anyways thanks to all. I appreciate your taking the time. I got a couple books recommended here but only got to reading one. I will read the one Jackie mentioned next, hopefully not wait forever for an eval and go from there.

[wapiti]

I haven't read the whole thread. Do read the Eides' book. Also, when you're ready to make an appointment for evals, if you can afford to, try to find a psych who specializes in 2e, twice-exceptional (in my town, that includes ed psychs who often do admissions testing for the local gifted schools as well as LD testing; here, I believe the ed psych evals are less expensive than a neuropsych eval out at Children's Hospital). Try not to use a run-of-the-mill psych who has little experience with gifted kids. It can make a big difference when it comes to the analysis and the observations during testing. Just my two cents. Also, when you're interested, there have been discussions on the Learning Challenges board about what to ask the psych/neuropsych.

[plain jane]

I haven't read the whole thread. Do read the Eide's book. Also, when you're ready to make an appointment for evals, if you can afford to, try to find a psych who specializes in 2e (in my town, that includes ed psychs who often do admissions testing for the local gifted schools as well as LD testing; here, I believe the ed psych evals are less expensive than a neuropsych eval out at Children's Hospital). Try not to use a run-of-the-mill psych who has little experience with gifted kids. It can make a big difference when it comes to the analysis and the observations during testing. Just my two cents. Also, when you're interested, there have been discussions on the Learning Challenges board about what to ask the psych/neuropsych.

 

 

I do have an appointment but it'll be a bit of a wait. I am very interested in finding the discussions WRT to what to ask. Any tips on what key words to use to find these threads? I'm scared to end up on a wild goose chase and reading 10billion threads. I've already done that trying to plan science for next year. :willy_nilly: And I had been doing so good about staying off the computer for quite a while now. :001_smile:

[wapiti]

I do have an appointment but it'll be a bit of a wait. I am very interested in finding the discussions WRT to what to ask. Any tips on what key words to use to find these threads? I'm scared to end up on a wild goose chase and reading 10billion threads. I've already done that trying to plan science for next year. :willy_nilly: And I had been doing so good about staying off the computer for quite a while now. :001_smile:

 

My searching is not turning up one I was thinking of - something's not quite right with the search feature. Try these:

http://forums.welltr...-i-prepare-ask/

 

http://forums.welltr...the-neuropsych/

 

Maybe this was the one - not sure.. .http://forums.welltr...the-neuropsych/ or this http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/351464-any-last-minute-neuropsych-advice/

 

Also, read a lot ahead of time - books, threads on topics of possible LDs, etc. The more info you have to connect the results to during your conference, the better. When you're ready to make a list of questions, feel free to ask on the Learning Challenges board too for more ideas that may be tailored to your specific situation. If you have your own long threads here on these issues, you might read back through them again later - with the perspective of a little time - to see if anything you've described on here or any ideas someone had jump out at you or ring any bells as far as possible questions.

[Arcadia]

Spam by barhdean and Whiten5arc reported.

 

Hope you manage to get an appointment with someone experienced with 2E. Best of luck with the evaluations.

[ondreeuh]

Your description rings all the warning bells for ADD and low working memory. I betcha some caffeine does help. Before you get upset at her for something she can't control, please get her evaluated.

 

In the meantime - it sounds like she is fatiguing by the end of the math lesson. I would break it up and do the teaching & example problems first, and coming back to the practice problems later in the day. Also - when she blurts stuff out, calmly ask her to slow down and think. I deal with this every single day and I just ignore anything he blurts out.

[PeterPan]

I'll just jump in here with a few things, largely echoing what others have said. One, you've used a lot of code words for ADHD, so it's time to get evals. Two, as wapiti said, (trying to put this politely) the quality of psychs really varies. The symptom lists for giftedness and adhd are almost identical, and in fact studies the Eides have done have found a totally different EF (executive function) curve for the *profoundly* gifted. Doesn't apply to moderately gifted or bright, only profoundly gifted. So at that point they seriously look like they have adhd but are in fact profoundly gifted.

 

I wouldn't hire a tutor right now. Seriously. I would take a BIG FAT LONG BREAK. Right now she is EXTREMELY young for her grade, has what are probably a lot of negative emotions building up, and has hit her developmental limit. So STOP THE INSANITY. Stop math. It's summer. Do no math till fall. I give you righteous advice here. The world will NOT fall apart. She will continue to develop, and she will come back to it with more facility. In the meantime, you need to get evals and start doing some things to get your lives more positive.

 

In the evals they may find low processing speed, working memory deficits, etc. You can get a vision eval (with a COVD doc) just to check for vision problems. If she has working memory problems, etc., that's something you can work on this summer during that BREAK I strongly advised you to consider. There are actually a lot more important things you can be doing than math right now, and you're not doing them because you're stressing over math. Play games, do puzzles, work on her working memory, go run stretch and play and grow, listen to read alouds. Play Ticket to Ride. Get all the variations of it and play every single day. Get more games that require math.

 

Yes, hormones in a girl at this age steal their brains. My dd would often tell me 2+5 was 8. It was UNREAL. And around 13 I got my child back.

 

Uh, no, 60 min. a day of math for a child with attention issues is INSANE. That's probably why you're having problems. Do 20 minutes a day of math. Try something idiotically easy that people say shouldn't work, like TT. :D Look at my sig, 20 min. a day of TT plus 10-15 min. of a high end program like BJU, done consistently, gets really great results with alternative students. I'm not opposed to tutors in general, but right now you've got kind of this OCD thing going on about math. You are describing a dc who is young for her grade, in the throes of hormones, who is having some fog, still performing at grade level, and who is actually placed a grade level ahead. You put her in tutoring, and you just said she's defective, I'm sorry. You do a grade adjustment, CHILL OUT on the stupid math, give her a break, give her sensible length lessons that fit her developmentally, and she's probably FINE.

 

You as the mom are about to define whether she has a PROBLEM or a DIFFERENCE. Please think through this very carefully. You're very insecure right now, but she's ok. She's going to be ok. She is OK. Do a grade adjustment. Think about what things you would have to rethink to get her to a place where what she does is making her feel NORMAL and SUCCESSFUL. Get her work back to a place where when she does it she's SUCCESSFUL. If that means an easy program with spiral that everyone disses as too light for your kid's IQ, DO IT ANYWAY.

 

I had to do this at spelling with my dd at one point, where somehow all my efforts to work hard with her (because spelling was a problem for her) turned into her thinking she was DUMB. My dd never spelled below grade level, but doing it the way I did somehow communicated to her that she was dumb at it and defective. YES it's always been a weakness for her. I had to stop and give her something really EASY so it finally clicked in her mind that she was GOOD at it. Then we could move forward.

 

So when I tell you to stop the math, I've btdt. Once you've got a bright kid in a nasty spiral, you have to stop and recalibrate. You have to get them back into their positive work zone where they know that they can sit down and be successful. And whatever that takes (backing up a lot, going with something really easy, whatever) is what you do. They need that positive work zone. With what you're describing, she's not likely defective, just different. That geometry ability you're seeing is VSL, and that's typical of right-brained kids (adhd, dyslexia, etc.). Think through that. You've got someone with a gifted IQ and incredible VSL strength who spends an hour a day slogging and feeling defective. That's not necessary.

 

Well that's enough. :)

[almondbutterandjelly]

Is your daughter a big picture thinker? That would explain the careless mistakes. Details are less important to them. An incentive chart helped me train my dd to not make careless mistakes. She only got a box filled in if she didn't make careless errors (if she didn't understand something, that didn't count against her for the chart). Also, kudos that your kid can even complete 24 problems. Why not make her assignments shorter? My kid can't do more than 5-10, and she's age 12 going on 13. ... I have more to say, but for some reason, my enter key won't move this down to another paragraph, so I'm going to do another post.

[wapiti]

They need that positive work zone. With what you're describing, she's not likely defective, just different. That geometry ability you're seeing is VSL, and that's typical of right-brained kids (adhd, dyslexia, etc.). Think through that. You've got someone with a gifted IQ and incredible VSL strength who spends an hour a day slogging and feeling defective. That's not necessary.

 

Just quoting for emphasis... as you notice these VSL strengths, find ways to use them to help her learn more effectively. When you get back to doing schoolwork eventually, avoid teaching through weaknesses.

[almondbutterandjelly]

Does your daughter fit a right brain learner or visual spatial learner profile at all? Color, pictures, stories, and humor can be really helpful for retention. Maybe that's why Singapore worked so much better for so long? Have you tried using manipulatives for the geometry stuff she's not getting? Or doing in color on the white board? I really do sympathize, but I have a daughter who sounds similar, and I just had her tested by the PS, and unless they score 2 grade levels below, they don't consider then LD'd. I distinctly was concerned about dyscalculia. They said no. So I just relax. That is my advice to you. It actually sounds like your daughter is doing pretty well. My dd would totally do the "smah.... bigger" thing. Not a big deal. We use a lot of manipulatives for geometry (Lakeshore Learning Center has much fun stuff in that regard), I color code EVERYTHING, and I don't overwhelm her with tons of problems. For some perspective, my dd will be 13 in September, in the 7th grade, and our math this year is consisting of Zaccaro's Real World Algebra, Key to Algebra (heavily color coded by me with colored pencils), and Key to Decimals, Percents and finishing up Fractions (all heavily color coded by me). Plus we will be doing Life of Fred Honey, Ice Cream, and Jellybeans. (Not all at the same time for any of this. We do two different math things a day right now, about 15 minutes each with a different subject between. We will add one chapter of LOF a day in the fall to this.) I'm putting off Geometry until next year where I will buy many fun manipulatives. And no, we didn't complete all the SM books or the Saxon books to say we belonged here. I had been ignoring Mama-instinct for awhile that said "she needs to start algebra. It's big picture." until I finally just did. It's going well.

[TravelingChris]

SHe really sounds like my dd who was diagnosed this year with inattentive ADHD and dyslexia (I don't know how much since I haven't gotten the written report yet :glare: ). SHe is now on a ADHD medication and doing much better. I still accomodate for dyslexia. That means for her (she is older) doing Algebra problems in cursive, not requiring long math sessions (she does up to 30 minute session two times a day), WHat she needs too is hands on teaching- not leaving her with a textbook. I use Life of Fred because it has less of repetitive problems but helps with understanding. My dd always scores very highly on math concepts but used to score very poorly on computation. I think the concepts is much more important and she has ended up using calculators in a very specific manner- like is she is doing a division problem, she doesn't just type it into the calculator. She writes out the problem like 1483/6/ So she would think 6 goes into 14 twice and 2 is left over and bring down the 8 and you have 28. Well she hasn't memorized the 6s so she would enter into the calculator, how many times does 6 go into 28 and get 4 with 4 left over. THat sort of thing,

[unsinkable]

I think 60 minutes of any subject at a sitting is 10-15 minutes too long. After 45-50 minutes, take break, get up stretch, walk around, drink some water. If more works needs to be done, go back after 5-10 minutes. The brain needs a break and works better afterwards.