family of 10 starts college at age 12

[Murphy101]

I just don't see it as limiting. I know lots of people who already have degrees and then went back 10+ years later to change careers.

 

I just don't see that as having anything to with what age they were when they got the first degree.

[kiana]

The "limiting" part comes in if they didn't do as well in their first degree. I see nothing wrong with acceleration if the child is really excelling, but if they graduate at 16 with a 2.9 gpa (please note, this is purely hypothetical) I cannot see this as being beneficial. I can see it as being a real issue if they later want to go to graduate school/med school/any other place where the GPA is seriously looked at. Furthermore, many kinds of aid are only available to those doing a first degree.

 

With respect to their plan, the part that I object to is their billing it as something that even very average kids can do. I do not, in any way, think that a very average kid is ready for full-time college that young, even if their parent accompanies them. There are some courses they could take, sure. For example, our 'math for liberal arts' class would be easily accessible to a reasonably prepared middle-school student who had already had a solid pre-algebra course. But these are the non-majors courses -- the courses for students to take to get their general education requirements accomplished. Not the courses for math majors.

[wapiti]

The limits I see have more to do with experience combined with the wisdom that comes from the perspective of time.

 

Different people do want different things out of life, but I think it is crucial to recognize that there are vastly different peers in different types of colleges.

 

Mostly, I think the idea of starting "college" at 12 is so irritating due to the extremeness of the age difference. Cutting a year or two off is not the same as six years. It is patently ridiculous, to me, based on what I know to be college-level work. The advice for sale is not aimed at prodigies, regardless of the subject family's actual intellectual level. Acceleration aside, saying that an average 12 y.o. is capable of real college-level depth is illogical. (FWIW, I have a bright 12 y.o., and she'll need a lot more intellectual development to reach her full pre-college potential)

[Jane in NC]

 

No, I never made the case for it. I'm of the opposite opinion, in fact. I think American culture tends to push children along far too fast when they are youngest (birth--around age 10), and then hold them frustratingly back when they are ready for more meaningful responsibility and a stronger work ethic (age 11 and up).

 

I do think that it's important to see that this family (Hardings) is not "only" educating their children according to the beat of a different drum. They are parenting from a fundamentally different perspective on the endurance of childhood and the emergence of the young adult. I could see it otherwise IF their children were profoundly gifted (because then acceleration would not really be acceleration, but just meeting the needs of the [still perceived as] child. But since they (and the children) all claim to be "average," then what other explanation could there be except that in their view childhood transitions into young adult life, and the preparation for the rest of adult life begins? IOW, their "acceleration" is not based on the precocity of their children, but on their view of the capabilities of "average" 11 or 12 year olds -- a view which is not the norm. ;)

 

I'm skewed a bit, though, I do admit this. I lived in Belize and Malawi, and have done work in other developing nations, as well as in the US. What I have seen of childhood overseas (and here) has impacted my perspective of what childhood is and ought to be, and when it "ends." In Belize, I counseled children as young as eight years old who were Heads of Households. In Malawi, many children were in charge of the family, the parents having succumbed to AIDS. Sadly, these children did have to take on much more responsibility than was healthy, even in those cultures. Their options for schooling were very limited, and the prospects for the girls was especially bleak.

 

Although my own children are still quite young, I have a hard time viewing 15, 16, 17 year olds as "children." When I see a sulky, sullen spoiled American teen, yeah, it bothers me, probably as a result of watching 8 and 9 year olds pick their next meal out of the trash. They were so young, yet in charge of younger siblings, in charge of the fields, in charge of the goats, in charge of the cooking fires, in charge of the laundry, in charge of anyone who was sick. Many young people all around the world are taking on adult-level responsibility every day, with no choice in the matter, and no one blinks an eye at it.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

I fully agree with the bolded.

[wapiti]

I have difficulty editing on my phone so I will add here. The advice would make more sense if the general idea was about the piece of paper that says a person went to college rather than the education itself.

 

I really shouldn't post from the pool - too much to say more carefully than I have done... though it's all been said before anyway.

[Wheres Toto]

The limiting I see is in the specializing at such a young age. A 12 year old could decide they hate math, despite never having taken anything past pre-algebra and choose a major that doesn't require anything past a general math course. That could be very limiting in the future. What's the sense in getting a college degree by 16 if you then have to go back and take all the high school level stuff you skipped? Especially since it would probably need to be taken by paying for remedial level courses at community college.

 

I haven't seen my oldest as a "child" since she turned 15 or 16 years old. She was holding down a job, picking her classes for school (within the requirements of her school), and managing her own time. Often making her own meals, definitely doing her own laundry. She just finished her freshman year in college and is completely done with both math and english courses. If she ever changes her major that could change but at least she has four years of high school math (including calculus) to help keep her from having to start over at the very beginning.

[8filltheheart]

What is the decade between 12 and 22 for? What is the purpose of those years? Are those years part of childhood? Or are they the beginning of adulthood? The Harding family seems to have chosen to "allow" their children to grow up. The case could be made that mainstream American culture does not "allow" most young adults to grow up, when, in fact, many might be ready and willing to do so, if given half a chance.

 

According to the interview, these children do seem ready to work and aim at their interests. I don't think that any of us are in a position to judge whether or not they have the maturity to "understand great literature and history" -- whatever that means -- but they seemed mature enough to interview well on CNN. Not sure I'd do as well, LOL. Also, they do engage in "childhood pursuits" when they are considered to be children (e.g., soccer). However, their definition of "childhood" seems to vary vastly from the mainstream view of when childhood is and when it ends.

 

 

 

Again, perhaps the parents see their 11 or 12 year olds as young adults, capable of pursuing interests with passion, commitment, and discipline. IOW, they don't perceive this trajectory as "rushing" anything, but rather as not hindering the natural progression of learning and becoming a young adult.

 

 

You would have to preface this with "most twelve year olds," because apparently, some do know. FWIW, I know some adults in their 40s and 50s who don't know what they want to "be when they grow up." I also know some perfectly balanced, adjusted teens who do know, and they will pursue their goals with commitment, discipline, and a good work ethic.

 

The Harding parents don't necessarily misunderstand childhood, they are simply free to define it for their own family members. Perhaps the rest of us misunderstand childhood, Penelope. :tongue_smilie:

 

First, my ONLY problem with the entire issue is presenting it as if it is a perfectly reasonable approach for the avg 12 yr old. Obviously their children have succeeded. But.....it is simply not a realistic educational approach for the avg 12 yr old......regardless of how they are raised or educated. I'm sorry, but no one can convince me otherwise.

 

Second, I do not view 16 &17 yr olds as children. I do view them as young adults. I knew when I was 16 that I was going to marry my dh. I did between my soph and jr yrs in college. And we have been married for 27 very happy yrs. Our oldest was engaged when he was 17. He got married while still in college and is now the proud daddy of 2 at age 23. So......my pt is that I don't see the ages between 12 and 22 as a no man's land and 22 being some magical age of "reason" and adulthood. (ETA: But.....I should add that while we see them as mature and responsible, we are also not willing to just "let them loose" in the world unsupervised until they graduate from high school. We do a lot of parenting those last couple of yrs that they live at home.)

 

That said......between the ages of 12 and 16 children do undergo radical changes. They do start to change from children to young adults.

 

If this conversation was about the avg 16 yr old.....it would be a different conversation. The courses that my kids have taken dual enrolled at the local CCs have been way below the level of coursework they have completed at home. But, whether or not that route is a "good" is again completely different conversation. ;)

 

Just wanted to clarify my POV which is probably considered radical by most modern Americans. But.....my kids are raised to be self-reliant and responsible. Regardless.....they are too immature at 12 to be anywhere close to being considered young adults.

[shawthorne44]

I thought high school was largely a waste of time, and college was where I truly learned. So, I think it is a great idea. It isn't that the family skipped college, they basically skipped high school. That is something I would love for my daughter.

[lewelma]

First, my ONLY problem with the entire issue is presenting it as if it is a perfectly reasonable approach for the avg 12 yr old. Obviously their children have succeeded. But.....it is simply not a realistic educational approach for the avg 12 yr old......regardless of how they are raised or educated. I'm sorry, but no one can convince me otherwise.

 

I completely agree with this. Every. single. sentence.

[8filltheheart]

I thought high school was largely a waste of time, and college was where I truly learned. So, I think it is a great idea. It isn't that the family skipped college, they basically skipped high school. That is something I would love for my daughter.

 

 

And skipped middle school. They basically sent their kids after elementary school.

[Pen]

Once I realized that this plan was apparently about, by and large, sending children to a nearby college for a not too difficult program, I think it may be feasible, and preferable to what a lot of teens in the area where I live (which is probably typical for a lot of America) are doing--which is hanging out, getting into various forms of trouble (drinking, drugs, vandalism...), or even if not getting into trouble wasting a good bit of time. And at the point of realizing that, I came to think, yes it probably does fit for many average kids. Not for kids who are homeschooling Greek and Latin or Calculus and Advanced Physics, not for ones going to elite prep schools or special magnet schools--nor on the other hand for ones who are "behind", but for the ones who are ready for a Basic College Math program that is remedial for college or on grade level for grade 6 and could be done at a college at 12 as easily as in a homeschool at 11 or 12. Basically this is to say that much high school here is not very effective, or that much college is glorified high school, but that is probably the reality in many cases. And we also expect college degrees nowadays for many fields that did not used to require more than a high school diploma.

 

I just started picturing a bunch of the teens in this area and thinking if we were not so rural, and if there were an easy college in biking distance where they could start their way to solid technical/vocational degrees might that not be better than what I see happening? And do I think many would be able to manage it? And the answer is, I think probably yes.

[phathui5]

But is that bc of our educational system? Maybe if they didn't spend so much time doing so many other things, they'd have the time to find their interests.

 

Good point!

[shawthorne44]

And skipped middle school. They basically sent their kids after elementary school.

 

Haven't I read that your average homeschooled kid is working two years ahead at the end of 6th grade? I think that is where the middle school went.

 

With a bit more acceleration than normal, and a stress on important skills like writing papers, I can see this do-able for the top ... 15% of kids. Maybe more. Any kid taking honors and AP classes in high school, could have probably gone this route. I remember AP as being more difficult than the corresponding college class.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

Haven't I read that your average homeschooled kid is working two years ahead at the end of 6th grade? I think that is where the middle school went.

 

With a bit more acceleration than normal, and a stress on important skills like writing papers, I can see this do-able for the top ... 15% of kids. Maybe more. Any kid taking honors and AP classes in high school, could have probably gone this route. I remember AP as being more difficult than the corresponding college class.

 

 

No. My avg kids are working on grade level. At 12, they are working through Horizons 6, and mastering multi-paragraph reports (not essays and not mla/apa format), etc. My kids that are advanced,**I** didn't "accelerate" them. It's simply who they are. That is actually my main pt. I couldn't create an environment where my avg kids were taught to function at the same level as my advanced kids bc it is not as if their level of achievement was based solely on education. It is really innate ability.

 

A child that by age six that has taught themselves multiplication and the fundamentals of fractions simply through observation while playing (not during school, not instructed in any shape or form, but completely unprompted discoveries by themselves) is not at the same level as a child that is using manipulatives to regroup for basic addition and subtraction. The former is what my 11th grader did. He was doing alg by 10. By contrast, his 7 yr old sister still counts on her fingers for some basic math facts.

 

There is no "formula" that will turn his sister into him.

 

As far as advanced kids and high school.....that is NOT what is being marketed or promoted. It is by age 12 for avg kids. To all of a sudden shift it to the top 15% is not the same conversation.

[Nan in Mass]

This morning I was thinking that you and "8" could do a dog and pony show that would have great appeal to the TWMers. I fear though that all you might get out of it though would be a night in someone's spare room on a rollaway or futon, a free meal and undying love.

 

I guess you can't fund your kids' college educations on that!

 

 

Getting to know 8 would probably make it worth it. : )

[Nan in Mass]

...The Harding parents don't necessarily misunderstand childhood, they are simply free to define it for their own family members...

 

They sound like the unschooling families I know in how they approach adulthood and childhood. Those families seem to think more in terms of autonomy than in terms of maturity? Maybe?

 

Nan

[*Michelle*]

I remember AP as being more difficult than the corresponding college class.

 

Same here. My AP Physics class was two periods long, so almost two hours. Two hours a day Monday through Friday, plus at least one hour of studying/homework every night, plus the class was for the full year. It was intense.

[Nan in Mass]

And my contribution to the at-what-age-are-children-full-adults bit of this thread:

 

My oldest is 26. At 7 he was capable of taking his three-yeear old brother kayak camping. He could have done it for an extended period of time, if need be, as Sahamamama (might have too many ma's in there?) noticed. If something had gone wrong, he would not have been as able to deal with it as he would be now, at 26. It would have been very limiting to ask him to do that "from now on" just because he was capable of doing it for one night. At 7, he wsa capable of making a campfire and cooking supper. At 7, he was able to catch a fish and I totally trusted him to pick edible greens and berries and not eat nightshade by mistake. At 7, he could kayak across the lake, tie up his boat, and walk half a mile to go visit his cousin, and then get himself back home again before dark (when the risk of being hit by a less responsible adult in a motor boat was too great for any of us to be out in our little boats). At 11, he began doing really stupid things, things I had previously trusted him not to do. I'd rather forget the years between 13 and 15. At 16, his brain began recovering and he began to make decisions that were going to affect him more permenantly, like whether to drop out of high school. He managed to chart a sensible course and managed (barely) to follow his plan. Shortly after turning 18, he had a dog, a truck, a super-scary commute, and was being trusted not to burn down apartment buildings or kill himself or his partner with a welder. He was working a man's job. He still was most definately NOT grownup about many things. We helped. At 21, he matured some more and went to college. We helped. He still was most definately NOT grownup about many things but less things than when he was 18. We watched him grow between 21 and 25. Something seemed to solidify at about 25. He still needs parenting. *I* still need parenting sometimes. But it is definately more the I-need-to-add-oil-to-my-gas-can-how-many-ounces-in-a-gallon and can-you-drive-me-to-the-airport and can-you-help-me-figure-out-how-to-set-it-up-a-way-to-pay-my-school-loans type of parenting. And some of the normal stabilizing and comforting that clan members give other clan members no matter what their age.

 

The magic that happened at 25 might be our culture. I would guess that it had to do with graduating from college, except that his friends who didn't go to college, who banged around or hung around between high school graduation and 25, also seem to be more fully adult than they did a year or two ago. That isn't to say that they don't still need help, but it is is the type of help that I described above. That help is very important, very necessary. It just is a bit different than the sort of help we were offering earlier. He (and my extras) need less help making decisions. They just need help carrying out those decisions.

 

I think it is easy to look back and think, "But my great grandmother was married at 16 and had a few kids by 20. Why aren't all 16yo's more like that?" Well, I think they probably are. Or would be if they'd had the previous practice Great Grandmother had. But that is sort of like the difference between my 7yo taking his little brother camping, and my 7yo driving a truck in city traffic and repairing the heating system in an apartment building (and having his boss inspect it) and my 7yo doing the job he is doing now at 25 (far more complex and responsible than the truck/heating system). My son, at 7, was capable of managing a camping trip with his little brother. My son at 18 was capable of managing the repair job. My son at 25 was capable of managing his current job. He probalby would have botched the complex job if he'd tried it at 18, even if he'd had the know-how. At 16, my son definately would have been able to manage a household and a few small children. If he'd had to. Would he do a good job all the time? Probably not. I don't see why he couldn't have done it. I know from my own experience that managing a household and raising children "grows you up" the same way that going to work every day does. (My husband and I have grown up together at more or less the same rate.) He would have grown up and matured but as Sahamama pointed out, it would have severely limited his options. I consider it my job, as a parent, to keep options open.

 

So the points I want to make in this post (in case they were obscured by the details about my oldest) are:

 

--My children could manage many things at an early age, but they would have managed them in such a way that they restricted their future options. This is one of my concerns about unschooling and a major reason why we did not go that route. It is also why we chose not to TRY (don't know if we could have managed it) to have our children graduate from high school with an associate's degree.

 

--There is managing and then there is taking full advantage of. My youngest might have been able to manage his community college classes a few years earlier (if I'd figured out how to teach writing a few years earlier) but he wouldn't necessarily have taken full advantage of them. In community college, the difference between a C and an A is enormous, when it comes to comprehension, because the same class doesn't come in differnt tracks the way high school classes do. I could make the same exact arguement for raising children. I know I could have done it at 16. I am positive I did a better job at 25. And I enjoyed it at 25 in a way I am quite sure I wouldn't have at 16. And I had community support in a way that I wouldn't have if I'd done it at 16. (I'm really lucky - I would have had family support if I'd done it at 16. It wouldn't have been so wholeheartedly joyful, though.)

 

--I can see how if you had a BRIGHT child, you could guide him through college in his teens, BUT that child would still need lots of parenting. This can be done. We parented ours and some extras through college. Having done that, though, I can say that I would only do it if I had to. College is structured to be done at a certain age. If you sent a 12yo, you would have to keep saying, "That doesn't apply to you because you aren't 19." I can see how that could cause a lot of pully-hauly between the child and the parents.

 

Nan

 

 

[Dmmetler]

 

 

So the points I want to make in this post (in case they were obscured by the details about my oldest) are:

 

--My children could manage many things at an early age, but they would have managed them in such a way that they restricted their future options. This is one of my concerns about unschooling and a major reason why we did not go that route. It is also why we chose not to TRY (don't know if we could have managed it) to have our children graduate from high school with an associate's degree.

 

--There is managing and then there is taking full advantage of. My youngest might have been able to manage his community college classes a few years earlier (if I'd figured out how to teach writing a few years earlier) but he wouldn't necessarily have taken full advantage of them. In community college, the difference between a C and an A is enormous, when it comes to comprehension, because the same class doesn't come in differnt tracks the way high school classes do. I could make the same exact arguement for raising children. I know I could have done it at 16. I am positive I did a better job at 25. And I enjoyed it at 25 in a way I am quite sure I wouldn't have at 16. And I had community support in a way that I wouldn't have if I'd done it at 16. (I'm really lucky - I would have had family support if I'd done it at 16. It wouldn't have been so wholeheartedly joyful, though.)

 

--I can see how if you had a BRIGHT child, you could guide him through college in his teens, BUT that child would still need lots of parenting. This can be done. We parented ours and some extras through college. Having done that, though, I can say that I would only do it if I had to. College is structured to be done at a certain age. If you sent a 12yo, you would have to keep saying, "That doesn't apply to you because you aren't 19." I can see how that could cause a lot of pully-hauly between the child and the parents.

 

Nan

 

That's something that concerns me as well.

 

I have a DD who will almost certainly be ready for full-time college content early. She's 8, audited her first college class (not doing the field work/writing, but doing the rest of it) this past year, and is largely doing a upper middle/high school level schedule this year in most areas-the exceptions are two online classes designed specifically for young gifted kids working at a high level. She did her first MLA format paper this year, and while I wouldn't call it college level, I've seen worse from college students. She does academics for fun and academic competitions for fun, and regularly scores in the top handful of kids, often in the USA, in the competitions she does, and for those, she's the one who sets the study schedule, practices, and prepares. She's mature beyond her years in those settings.

 

 

But she's NOT a kid I'd trust to make more than a sandwich or a bowl of cereal without supervision-because while she can cook simple things, she's the kid who will get distracted by a book or start figuring math problems on the whiteboard, and totally miss that something is burning until the smoke detector goes off-at which time, she'll burst into tears and stand there, in the middle of the kitchen, while things burn instead of actually solving the problem. Sometimes I wonder if she'll be able to leave home and live on her own by the time she's 18...or 22, because she's THAT spacey and that "head in the clouds". At her age, I was regularly babysitting for babies and toddlers. I wouldn't trust her without a babysitter.

 

She's definitely not a grown up yet. And I cannot imagine her managing college at age 12 unless it's a highly sheltered situation. The classes don't concern me. But I could easily see her forgetting to do laundry for weeks at a time, not managing to make it to the cafeteria during the hours it's opened, and getting locked in the library overnight because she missed the announcement that they were closing.

[Murphy101]

Curious.

 

What would you be telling them doesn't apply to them bc they aren't 19?

 

I'm thinking sex, driving... But that's not about college.

[DavidArchuletaFan]

I have their e-book.

 

At one point they do refer to the time when Jesus was in the temple conversing as an adult and because it was a few days before Mary and Joseph noticed he was missing, they surmise that Jesus was therefore treated something like an adult at the age of 12. They liken that to their children as something of a goal to aim for. However, I think the 'college by 12' was more of something they fell into when they began to see it was possible with their eldest.

 

They speak of how their 2 eldest started out going to school and didn't particularly stand out accademically amongst their peers. This leads me to think that maybe they really are telling the truth when they say their kids are not 'geniuses'. Probably naturally bright I would think but probably nothing that would have indicated they would have achieved the things they have.

 

What they DO do is homeschool year round and do academics every day without fail it seems. Even when they have to be out of the house, the children do their work in the car or when they are sick, they do work in bed etc. They also mentor and strongly encourage their children to work very hard so that they too can follow in their older siblings footsteps and go to college at 12. I get the impression it's kind of a challenge that is continuously laid down before them as a strong enticement. The kids are also encouraged to discover their passion early and once they do, they specialize and work towards preparing them to study that in college. The children study their passion when reading for leisure.

 

I appreciated the glimpse I got into how they did things but I decided their accademic goals for their children were not the same as my academic goals for my children. I felt that they focused on ticking off the 'essential subjects' to accelerate through the grades as quickly as possible. I am more interested in a broad, rigorous education for my children so that they have a very deep and broad base from which to launch themselves, even if that means we are not zooming through the grades and graduating early.

 

Each to his own. :-)

[Arcadia]

She's definitely not a grown up yet. And I cannot imagine her managing college at age 12 unless it's a highly sheltered situation. The classes don't concern me. But I could easily see her forgetting to do laundry for weeks at a time, not managing to make it to the cafeteria during the hours it's opened, and getting locked in the library overnight because she missed the announcement that they were closing.

 

Laundry was easy, my hostel/dorm guys had more than 30 t-shirts each and does laundry only when desperate. Food, there is always instant cup noodles as backup. The librarians do check for people that have fallen asleep in the library as well as the toilets before security locks up.

What I could see at more problematic at 12 is the "booze party" after the end of exams at the hostels. Almost everyone is legal drinking age so even the house master/mistress are not going to interfere with drinking parties in the hostel/dorm rooms. Adult content magazines can be easily "found" in classmates room and also circulated. Cohabiting does happen regardless of hostel/dorm rules. R movies and NC-17 movies were watched at the communal tv lounge during movie nights since the assumption is everyone is of age.

[TXMary2]

This kind of thing doesn't appeal to me at all. I don't want my 12 year old learning college material. That's just me though. To each his own.

[DavidArchuletaFan]

They mostly lived at home while attending college. The parents drove them to and from classes or the next door neigbour who also attended the college would take them. Things like that. One daughter did stay on campus for a few months at one stage and they readily admit they were very nervous and worried about that but it worked out ok. So things like laundry and meals and parties were not such an issue.

They mostly lived at home while attending college. The parents drove them to and from classes or the next door neigbour who also attended the college would take them. Things like that. One daughter did stay on campus for a few months at one stage and they readily admit they were very nervous and worried about that but it worked out ok. So things like laundry and meals and parties were not such an issue.

 

 

Interesting. Can you tell us what kind of curriculum the "high school senior" 12 year olds followed? Had they studied four years of foreign language? Calculus? Reading lists?

They speak of how their 2 eldest started out going to school and didn't particularly stand out accademically amongst their peers. This leads me to think that maybe they really are telling the truth when they say their kids are not 'geniuses'. Probably naturally bright I would think but probably nothing that would have indicated they would have achieved the things they have.

 

 

So, if they weren't academic standouts at their third-tier schools, how did they get accepted into graduate and professional schools? Or has academic inflation reached to that level now?

[Dmmetler]

This kind of thing doesn't appeal to me at all. I don't want my 12 year old learning college material. That's just me though. To each his own.

 

 

This kind of depends on the subject. I've chosen to look for advanced classes/materials designed for kids at DD's age level for Literature and History for exactly that reason-she's not mature enough emotionally to handle high school level material in those areas yet. It's not a problem at all in Math/Science, and it hasn't been in foreign language, although I could see that it might be if DD gets to the level of reading primary source texts before she's ready for them. It would be a concern if she decides to go to college full-time, though.

[Nan in Mass]

Curious.

 

What would you be telling them doesn't apply to them bc they aren't 19?

 

I'm thinking sex, driving... But that's not about college.

 

Mostly issues of autonomy. There is a very strong cultural message of "you are in college so you are grown up and can decide for yourself". When you send a younger child to college, you probably still want to have final say in which classes they sign up for because you, having been to college, have a better idea of what each class involves. You want to be able to say, "No. You can't go study at so-and-so's apartment." You want to be able to say, "No. You can't drop that class just because you don't like the prof." You want to be able to say, "No. I will drive you to that field trip myself." You might want to be able to say (depending on location), "When I drop you off, I expect you to stay on campus until I come get you, not go off with friends to the pizza shop for lunch." You want to be able to say, "No that is not an appropriate paper topic." You want to be able to say, "You need to go to the prof and request a different lab partner. This one is not working out." You need to be able to say, "No. You can't skip the lab because it coincides with your friend's birthday party." You want to be able to say, "No. That is not an appropriate outfit. It sends the wrong message and will lead to trouble." You want to be able to say, "Did you remember to take your pocket knife out of your pocket?" And "Did you remember your calculator?" And "Did you remember your phone?" And "Are you sure you have enough money to take the train home?" And "Don't forget to start studying for finals now even though it seems like they are far off." And "Did you write down your assignments? You HAVE to write them down; you can't just rely on your memory." You want to be able to say things like that even though the course load is light enough that relying on one's memory works fine, under these circumstances, because YOU, having done this before, know that while it looks like your child is taking a full load on paper, he most certainly is not. Believe me - you want to say these things when your child is 19 also, but it is a lot easier at 19 to assume that he will muddle through without your help than it is at 16 when it is their first ever experience with schools and classrooms and teachers. If your child has had the full public high school experience, then it is fairly simple to assume that he knows what he is doing, no matter what his age. If your child is 19 and never has had any classroom experience, it is probably (haven't done this) easier to assume that they have the maturity to look ahead and stay out of trouble. That is much harder at 16. And even harder at 12, I would imagine. High school is semi-set up to deal with teens making mistakes. What you do there will definately affect your chances of getting into college, etc., but it doesn't go on your permanent record and there is a lot more oversight by the teachers and administration. College records are more permenant.

 

Anyway, that is what I meant by pully-hauly. Society and the college administration says one thing and you as the parent have to go against that. It can be done. Obviously. I'm just saying that you have to have to have a good grip on your teens in order to pull it off. Either that, or you have to leave them to sink or swim on their own, not something that I think promotes college success. It is much easier to flunk out of college than to flunk out of high school. It might be that 12 is so obviously to young that some of the pully-hauly doesn't happen?

 

By now it is probably fairly obvious that I have no idea how to spell permanent lol.

Did that answer your question?

 

Nan

[8filltheheart]

 

Interesting. Can you tell us what kind of curriculum the "high school senior" 12 year olds followed? Had they studied four years of foreign language? Calculus? Reading lists?

 

I would be interested in knowing this as well. Based on the courses that were in the article linked in the original thread a while back, I suspect its more similar to the American School's college prep approach.

[DavidArchuletaFan]

 

 

Interesting. Can you tell us what kind of curriculum the "high school senior" 12 year olds followed? Had they studied four years of foreign language? Calculus? Reading lists?

 

I don't think they explicitly say. I do know they focused on textbooks and I doubt things like 'living books' or historical fiction or classics were a big part of their education, just because as I said earlier, they seemed to put all their emphasis on ticking off the essentials rather than adding in anything that wasn't 100% necessary. Also like I mentioned, it seems that any time used for 'leisure reading' was geared towards them studying something necessary.

 

I will go back and see if there are more specifics but it is very late/early here and tomorrow is our day out of the house, so I won't be able to answer straight away sorry. In the meantime, if someone else knows, feel free to chime in. :-)

[Dmmetler]

Or simply studying heavily for ACT/SATs and counting on those scores to get you through. I know several homeschool families with high school students where that's their main approach, especially for math-focus on the test prep, more than actual classes. If you're going into a non-math intensive field where you only have to have 2 college level math classes to graduate, it might be enough. Most of the kids who do Talent search would probably qualify to get into college somewhere based on test scores.

[DavidArchuletaFan]

 

 

So, if they weren't academic standouts at their third-tier schools, how did they get accepted into graduate and professional schools? Or has academic inflation reached to that level now?

 

They weren't academic standouts in their elementary grades when they attended PUBLIC SCHOOL in the beginning.

One son had to sit the SAT (or whatever acronym he sat - I'm not American and get a little confused about your various tests) twice before he passed.

Another thing that struck me was that, in the e-book each of the children wrote a section about their experiences and I was a little surprised at the low standard of composition they displayed in their writing. I guess you shouldn't be too hard on a 12yo...but hey! this was a 12yo at college! lol

One of the children mentioned that it was a huge academic jump going into college but that they simply worked hard and managed to prove themselves to the doubting professor, so I presume they got the marks to get into graduate school.

[Murphy101]

I guess I just don't consider those things to be about college, nan. I know I graduated with lots of high schools who couldn't hack that stuff. Goodness knows the lack of completion rates at most colleges doesn't seem to suggest age makes them more mature in those areas.

 

Hmmm. It's really not an issue for me. Do no dog in the fight do to speak. Just contemplating these things.

[boscopup]

What I could see at more problematic at 12 is the "booze party" after the end of exams at the hostels. Almost everyone is legal drinking age so even the house master/mistress are not going to interfere with drinking parties in the hostel/dorm rooms.

 

In the US, most are not drinking age, as the drinking age is 21. So you have a lot of 18, 19, and 20 year olds that aren't legally supposed to drink.

 

On the other hand, they still drink. :p You go to an off campus frat party and there is plenty of booze. I went to a school that was a "dry campus", and the frats would put beer into coolers, then mix it with Koolaid so it was red. :lol:

 

Drinking didn't happen in the dorms as much (it still happened, but wasn't as obvious), but at parties... it was absolutely going on, and kids 18-20 were definitely involved, heavily aided by the 21 year olds who did the purchasing.

[Nan in Mass]

I guess I just don't consider those things to be about college, nan. I know I graduated with lots of high schools who couldn't hack that stuff. Goodness knows the lack of completion rates at most colleges doesn't seem to suggest age makes them more mature in those areas.

 

Hmmm. It's really not an issue for me. Do no dog in the fight do to speak. Just contemplating these things.

 

Just curious... If you don't consider dealing with prof's and lab partners and scheduling studying for finals and choosing which classes to take to be about college, what do you consider to be about college?

 

(I can't figure out how to make my question less abrupt so as to sound more friendly, so you will just have to believe me when I tell you that I truly am just curious, not trying to argue with you. I don't have any 12yo's in college either grin.)

 

Nan

[I.Dup.]

How would a 12 year old get into college? Don't they need transcripts of high school courses? This still fascinates me, but I still don't understand it. Can we give our children an SAT at any age and that's all they need, as long as they get a good score on it? I don't get it.

They mostly lived at home while attending college. The parents drove them to and from classes or the next door neigbour who also attended the college would take them. Things like that. One daughter did stay on campus for a few months at one stage and they readily admit they were very nervous and worried about that but it worked out ok. So things like laundry and meals and parties were not such an issue.

 

Nan keeps correctly reminding us that we all might make different choices if we had ten children. I think if I had ten children, my focus wouldn't be getting them to college quickly, it would getting them to an inexpensive public college/CC, or getting the most scholarships and grants, or into ROTC or something like that. If Bama offers free tuition for high SAT scores, I'd seriously consider the opposite strategy, and red-shirt my kids to try to improve their scores. Does the book mention financing college at all?

[Arcadia]

In the US, most are not drinking age, as the drinking age is 21. So you have a lot of 18, 19, and 20 year olds that aren't legally supposed to drink.

 

:lol: Seeing many people drinking beer on UCB campus makes me forget that the legal drinking age is older here compared to elsewhere.

US expats in Asia or Canada would be able to buy alcohol at 18 though. Something that I have not thought about as my kids are still small.

[Murphy101]

 

Just curious... If you don't consider dealing with prof's and lab partners and scheduling studying for finals and choosing which classes to take to be about college, what do you consider to be about college?

 

I guess I don't consider college to be anything more than a place to learn stuff.

 

Dealing with teachers, classmates, making study time and choosing courses is just... Idk...life? Don't they do that in high school and even middle school and such already? It's just more of the same?

[Murphy101]

I think it's easy to blame this on having 10 kids but there are plenty of people who do this when they only have a couple kids. I guess it's just not news worthy when done on a smaller scale?

[regentrude]

I guess I don't consider college to be anything more than a place to learn stuff.

 

Dealing with teachers, classmates, making study time and choosing courses is just... Idk...life? Don't they do that in high school and even middle school and such already? It's just more of the same?

 

 

No.

Many issues (teachers, classmates, lab partners) would not come up if they are homeschooled.

 

Time management and course selection? Definitely a college issue. The amount of work and the time management skills required to accommodate 18 credit hours and pull a 60 hour study week by far exceed what most students know from high school. Lack of work ethic and time management is the major cause of failure, not lack of raw ability.

Course selection is not an issue in high school, since students are guided and very limited in their choices. At college, it is an issue that requires planning and research and long term foresight: is this course offered every semester? Only every fall? only every other year? What is it a prerequisite for? How will not taking this course now impact my chances to graduate in four years? College students have advisors to help them navigate these very college specific issues, because even the 18-20 year olds are expected to need guidance.

 

My DD started taking university courses at age 13. With every added class hour, the requirements for time management, independence, study skills increased. In the beginning I was very glad that, while she figured it out on her own, I was available in the background and could have stepped in if need be. I did proof read the first email communication she sent to a professor. I do advise her on course selection. I did make suggestions for study techniques. And I do reassure her that ten practice tests are sufficient to prepare her for a monthly exam.

[Murphy101]

Okay. I've done all that you mention, regentrude.

 

Points to consider.

 

I don't think they put the 12 year olds into 18 credits. Maybe. Idk. But *I* would do the same as I've done for my 15/16 year olds. One maybe two classes tops to get their feet wet. I wouldn't add classes until they were confident of their current workload. And I'm here in the wings ready to step in and advise or guide as needed. Personally, I do more than their almost useless college advisors. With one exception. And THAT advisor is awesome and extremely helpful.

 

I think the kids who are serious and get proper encouragement need all that you mention regardless of age.

 

I'm a hard worker and went to ps k - 12. But there was a lot of learning curve that I could have used guiding through that would have made it easier for me. Most of it the same stuff you and I are doing with our kids.

[Nan in Mass]

 

 

I guess I don't consider college to be anything more than a place to learn stuff.

 

Dealing with teachers, classmates, making study time and choosing courses is just... Idk...life? Don't they do that in high school and even middle school and such already? It's just more of the same?

 

Regentrude explained it. I'll just chime in to agree that if they are homeschooled, no. And even if they are public schooled, college is probably going to be different. You have much more freedom and much less oversight. For example, in my son's calculus class, nobody checked whether you had done the homework problems or not. My nephew is taking a philosophy course that just has one exam at the end. One. And probably nobody will notice if you don't show up for class. My son had to sit on the floor in front of his prof's office for half a day in order to get a chance to ask her a question. She was very helpful once he got to her, but getting to her took much more persistance than it would have in high school. We didn't need to help much at all with course content in college, but we helped quite a lot in the beginning with everything else. And ours were older than Regentrude's when they began. The whole thing can be very intimidating if you haven't had experience in similar situations. I think it is probably fair to say that many of us were scared stiff when we were dropped off for college. Mine didn't even know that the hundred's digit represents which floor a class is on, how to take a tray through a cafeteria line, or how work the milk dispensers (the cows lol). Of course, they could have figured such small things out, but pile too many of that sort of things together and you get a very much overwhelmed student who fails to manage. And college classes move quickly. You need to hit the ground running in order to keep up.

 

Nan

[stripe]

I think it's easy to blame this on having 10 kids but there are plenty of people who do this when they only have a couple kids. I guess it's just not news worthy when done on a smaller scale?

 

Yes, when I saw the 60 Minutes piece about Jake Barnett,

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=7395214n

I thought he ended up in college with his parents' blessing because of his particular gifts.

 

That is entirely different than suggesting that college is the natural destination for 12 year olds. If that's the case, I think an overhaul of k-12 education is in order.

[Nan in Mass]

Okay. I've done all that you mention, regentrude.

 

Points to consider.

 

I don't think they put the 12 year olds into 18 credits. Maybe. Idk. But *I* would do the same as I've done for my 15/16 year olds. One maybe two classes tops to get their feet wet. I wouldn't add classes until they were confident of their current workload. And I'm here in the wings ready to step in and advise or guide as needed. Personally, I do more than their almost useless college advisors. With one exception. And THAT advisor is awesome and extremely helpful.

 

I think the kids who are serious and get proper encouragement need all that you mention regardless of age.

 

I'm a hard worker and went to ps k - 12. But there was a lot of learning curve that I could have used guiding through that would have made it easier for me. Most of it the same stuff you and I are doing with our kids.

 

 

Right. Of course. As any sensible person would. : ) But the reason we got into all this was because I mentioned that it might be harder to persuade a younger student to accept the extra help that a younger student would need. Our culture assumes that college students are adults and can do this on their own, and when we send our young ones to college, we are telling them (in a way) that they are adult now. They may then object when we want to have a say in which classes they choose. All I was saying was that one issue with sending a younger student to college was that it might create some pully-hauly between the parents and the student over things like that. Or it might not. We didn't have much trouble. There are ways around that problem. Like many parenting issues, though, "ways around" may not be as easy as it sounds.

 

: )

 

Nan

[beth83]

Back in the old days, kids would start working on the family farm as early as 4 years old and go off to war at the age of 10 or 12. I just don't understand how we got to a point in our culture where our children have to be "children" until they hit 18, and if you push them too early to finish "child" things (like school) we are doing them some disservice. I'm not going to chase after wordly standards or listen to what society today says has to be the right progression.

 

I think everybody's goal is for their child to be a functioning part of society. That is exactly what this family has done. I really could care less if my child had the perfect college experience at the age of 18-22. Unfortunately, that doesn't define a successful life, which also goes for the how competitive the college is that one is attending. Their are many kids who are wrapped up in getting into the best college and then blow off their life and not amounting to anything. Props to them to actually educating kids who are now hard working, contributing members of the world.

[beth83]

hmmm... double post.

[Nan in Mass]

Beth83 -

Few, if any, of us are upset because one family of ten has found a way to educate their children. The discussion is just about whether we ourselves would want to do it the same way, and whether it would be possible for most families to send their children to college at 12 if they wanted to. Some of us (I, for one) only have a few children and have been saying that we suspect that if we had ten children, we might very well change our minds about how we chose to educate them. There was also a bit of discussion about where the line between childhood and adulthood lies in our culture and how that might be different in a different time or place. The way the thread is structured, it might be a bit hard to see that.

Nan

[regentrude]

I don't think they put the 12 year olds into 18 credits. Maybe. Idk. But *I* would do the same as I've done for my 15/16 year olds. One maybe two classes tops to get their feet wet. I wouldn't add classes until they were confident of their current workload.

 

In that case, calling it "starting college at age 12" would be a misrepresentation.

I do not doubt that many 12 year olds may be able to take carefully selected, single college classes. But I would not sell this as "my 12 year old has started college". He may have started taking college courses - BIG difference! I was under the impression that the people we are discussing refer to actual college, not supplementing a home education with individual college classes.

And "real" college would involve a 16-18 credit workload.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

Back in the old days, kids would start working on the family farm as early as 4 years old and go off to war at the age of 10 or 12.

 

Where? Sparta?