Edited

[PachiSusan]

Thank you everyone, for your answers. I'm choosing to edit this and stop asking for more information - I got what I needed out of this. I had no idea this was the big kerfluffle and I do not want to dredge up past hurts and drama of this community. Being comparatively new, I didn't know this was as big as it was.

[SarahW]

There's some old threads where it all played out. Search for "enns ham" and I think they all come up.

 

I was terribly curious too, so I looked them up a while back. It's very popcorn worthy.

[Luckymama]

Ah, the Great Kerfuffle :D

 

If I wasn't in the middle of dinner prep I'd find you some links.

[Mrs Mungo]

At a homeschool conference during a public speech Ken Ham claimed that believing in a literal 7 day creation is a salvation issue, and anyone who disagrees is a fake Christian who is leading people astray. He named Peter Enns, Susan Wise Bauer and others by name. There were plenty of threads about it at the time. There are other blog posts by other big names in the homeschool community speaking up on the issue.

[FairProspects]

At a homeschool conference during a public speech Ken Ham claimed that believing in a literal 7 day creation is a salvation issue, and anyone who disagrees is a fake Christian who is leading people astray. He named Peter Enns, Susan Wise Bauer and others by name. There were plenty of threads about it at the time. There are other blog posts by other big names in the homeschool community speaking up on the issue.

 

 

At a conference where all 3 individuals were featured speakers as well.

[Spy Car]

Ham suggested that Enns (and SWB for publishing him) were like those deserving of having millstones placed around their necks and being tossed into the sea for misleading children and pulling them away from God, because their Christianity differs from his own.

 

He also published a very tacky cartoon (in the wake of the Tsunami) showing a tidal-wave (labeled "Compromisers," which is his term for traitors to Christianity, like SWB) causing ruin. Ham got so much heat for this one, including from his own supporters, that he pulled it down.

 

Bill

[PachiSusan]

OK - looks like I need to fix dinner, do the dishes, pop some popcorn and search the forums for the information. As a Christ lover, I grow so tired of the bickering and back biting that the leaders indulge in because someone isn't their "brand" of Christianity. Makes me ill actually - and gives Christ a black eye. I already have a feeling which side I'll come down on, but I do want to inform myself before discussing it further with this lady.

[PachiSusan]

Ah, the Great Kerfuffle :D

 

If I wasn't in the middle of dinner prep I'd find you some links.

 

 

Is THAT what the Great Kerfluffle was all about ?? I never knew!

[LucyStoner]

SWB= Christian scholar who is pro education.

 

Ken Ham= Christian ideologue who is pro making sh!t up and calling that education.

[PachiSusan]

SWB= Christian scholar who is pro education.

 

Ken Ham= Christian ideologue who is pro making sh!t up and calling that education.

 

 

Oh man, Katie - that just made me laugh so hard I almost spit my Pepsi on my keyboard!!

[Spy Car]

OK - looks like I need to fix dinner, do the dishes, pop some popcorn and search the forums for the information. As a Christ lover, I grow so tired of the bickering and back biting that the leaders indulge in because someone isn't their "brand" of Christianity. Makes me ill actually - and gives Christ a black eye. I already have a feeling which side I'll come down on, but I do want to inform myself before discussing it further with this lady.

 

 

With Ham you are either 100% in line with his brand of literalism (man walked with dinosaurs, have a belief in a 6000 year old earth) or you are a "Compromiser." And a "Compromiser" is an agent of the Antichrist who would be better put to death before they lead children astray.

 

Bill

[PachiSusan]

With Ham you are either 100% in line with his brand of literalism (man walked with dinosaurs, have a belief in a 6000 year old earth) or you are a "Compromiser." And a "Compromiser" is an agent of the Antichrist who would be better put to death before they lead children astray.

 

Bill

 

 

I have seen that sentiment more times than I care to acknowledge about him. I guess this is another one to add to the list.

[Lilaclady]

It was the great kerfuffle alright.

[nmoira]

Can Someone Fill Me In on the 2011 Ham vrs Bauer Disagreement?

 

I don't think it can be called a disagreement, as that makes it sound reasoned and civil. Ham publicly attacked SWB and Enns.

[Element]

SWB= Christian scholar who is pro education.

 

Ken Ham= Christian ideologue who is pro making sh!t up and calling that education.

 

 

I had to log in just to "like" your post! :lol:

[PachiSusan]

I don't think it can be called a disagreement, as that makes it sound reasoned and civil. Ham publicly attacked SWB and Enns.

 

I didn't want to characterize something I knew literally nothing about, so I used a neutral word.

[NotSoObvious]

Ham hates SWB?? One more reason to use her stuff!

[Luckymama]

SWB= Christian scholar who is pro education.

 

Ken Ham= Christian ideologue who is pro making sh!t up and calling that education.

 

Dang. I love you.

[kristinannie]

I was at that conference and totally missed it. I heard about it on the message board when I got home. The next year, neither one was at the conference and Ken Ham and his followers had their own conference one weekend apart from that conference in a neighboring town. It was just weird. As a Catholic, I am sure I am one of the "compromisers." I know that SWB handled herself very graciously and I respect that.

[PeterPan]

Susan, if you do a search, you'll find that these topics were VERY controversial at the time. I happen to have a different opinion from many people, but we can *get along*. I suggest you not debate with her. Thank her for the tip, read about it yourself by reviewing those old threads (which SWB left up), decide what you think about those issues in your family, end of discussion. After all, what they do in their family is their business, and what you do in your family is yours. Thank her for the tip and move on.

[PachiSusan]

Susan, if you do a search, you'll find that these topics were VERY controversial at the time. I happen to have a different opinion from many people, but we can *get along*. I suggest you not debate with her. Thank her for the tip, read about it yourself by reviewing those old threads (which SWB left up), decide what you think about those issues in your family, end of discussion. After all, what they do in their family is their business, and what you do in your family is yours. Thank her for the tip and move on.

 

Yeah, I've pretty much decided that would be my answer. The discussion moved on to common core which is likely to be even worse. I bowed out. LOL

 

After researching, I can see this was a BIG DEAL in the community, which still has fingers and ramifications in today's conferences and home school communities. WOW.

[PeterPan]

Yes it was a big deal and also a very *nuanced* deal. And it OFFENDED a lot of people, a LOT of people.

 

Happily, at the Cincy convention it felt like things had settled down and gotten back to normal.

 

Apparently what's going on with the Common Core thing is that some vendors or information sources are using the idea of Common Core to scare low information users AWAY from other vendors without acknowledging that Common Core merely *raises* the gov't's standards to where some publishers already were. ;)

 

Oh yeah, drive by education... Some publishers are releasing their Common Core statements, so you can read from your preferred publishers and decide for yourself.

[PachiSusan]

Yes it was a big deal and also a very *nuanced* deal. And it OFFENDED a lot of people, a LOT of people.

 

Happily, at the Cincy convention it felt like things had settled down and gotten back to normal.

 

Apparently what's going on with the Common Core thing is that some vendors or information sources are using the idea of Common Core to scare low information users AWAY from other vendors without acknowledging that Common Core merely *raises* the gov't's standards to where some publishers already were. ;)

 

Oh yeah, drive by education... Some publishers are releasing their Common Core statements, so you can read from your preferred publishers and decide for yourself.

 

I'm learning my lessons to research the issue, ask for opinions of those you admire, and then keep your decision private. LOL

[*Lulu*]

Edited because post did not add to the conversation.

[TN Mama]

.

[Kathryn]

I was at that conference and totally missed it. I heard about it on the message board when I got home. The next year, neither one was at the conference and Ken Ham and his followers had their own conference one weekend apart from that conference in a neighboring town. It was just weird. As a Catholic, I am sure I am one of the "compromisers." I know that SWB handled herself very graciously and I respect that.

 

Me too! Of course, I missed it because there was no way I was going to go listen to Ken Ham speak in the first place... But, yeah, it was quite the conversation in the support groups around here for a while (obviously, those conversations were much different in the secular and Christian groups). I had to keep my mouth shut on quite a few field trips with the Christian group for over a year.

[mom31257]

I was at the convention and, unfortunately, witnessed some of it. I didn't agree with the way he handled it at all, but I also don't want to be just like him in being critical and name calling right back. I think people who are passionate about something such as a literal creation end up reacting in fear when they see others not buying into it. Ken Ham had just completed a study of Christian college science professors who don't believe in it, and the numbers were disturbing to him. I think he was reacting in fear that losing ground on the number of people who believe in creation will somehow affect Christianity overall. It was sad to watch because I don't like to think of Christians as being so divided by fear and criticism. It's not what God would want for us.

[TracyP]

After researching, I can see this was a BIG DEAL in the community, which still has fingers and ramifications in today's conferences and home school communities. WOW.

 

Yeah, recently I saw someone on another hs board trying to decide whether or not to continue using HOD because she realized that HOD uses one of SWB's books in a future guide. WHAT?!?!?

[FO4UR]

Kerfluffles like this is why I have my dc memorize, "Even a child is known by his actions..."

 

 

 

SWB leaves the issue of Creation/Evolution up to the parents in her history books. SOTW is a favorite in our homeschool.

[teeniebeenie6]

Is there any proof of this? Video, quotes? I am not disbelieving but was taught not to take word of mouth as fact. My husband follows Hams blog and said he has stated on there that not believing in a literal 7 days is not a salvation issue. There is a video somewhere of him stating it is not as well.

[Kathryn]

Is there any proof of this? Video, quotes? I am not disbelieving but was taught not to take word of mouth as fact. My husband follows Hams blog and said he has stated on there that not believing in a literal 7 days is not a salvation issue. There is a video somewhere of him stating it is not as well.

 

He was posting about everything as it happened two years ago. I know he was doing so on FB, don't know about anywhere else.

[teeniebeenie6]

In the following blog post, in paragraph 5 he says it is "of course" not "essential for salvation." http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2012/07/28/beware-of-those-who-want-the-church-to-compromise/

[*Lulu*]

Okay, mind changed.

 

The Great Kerfluffle was not about YE vs OE; that topic may have been the battle ground and there may have been some side skirmishes that were about it, but the real battle was about something much more important. In the Evangelical church how should Christians who do not agree be treated.

 

Not all Christians are Protestant. Not all Protestants are Evangelicals. Not all Evangelicals share identical, Biblically based beliefs. Who gets to define which are and are not worthy to bear the name of Christian? Is it sometimes appropriate or Biblical to publicly chastise those who are professing to be your brothers and sisters in Christ?

 

These were at the heart of the real fight and I do not believe that the Church (big c, all believers) in America has reached even an uneasy truce in this conflict.

 

I do know for myself reading, praying, and discussing with my own spiritual advisors about the issues that were raised that summer changed me and my opinions on several things. I believe the changes were for the better and pray I am doing better by my children and their instruction in the faith.

 

As for those who continue to be upset when it turns into fodder for humorous discussions, sometimes you've gotta laugh to keep from crying.

[SarahW]

Is there any proof of this? Video, quotes? I am not disbelieving but was taught not to take word of mouth as fact. My husband follows Hams blog and said he has stated on there that not believing in a literal 7 days is not a salvation issue. There is a video somewhere of him stating it is not as well.

 

For an objective account, with links: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/marchweb-only/kenhamhomeschool.html

[Spy Car]

Here is Ken Ham's/AiG's original cartoon:

 

EDIT: Sorry, I can seem to upload images :(

 

To save people time, here is the text of Luke 17:1-2 (NIV) referenced in the cartoon:

 

Jesus said to his disciples: Things that cause people to stumble are bound to come, but woe to anyone through whom they come. It would be better for them to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around their neck than to cause one of these little ones to stumble.

[teeniebeenie6]

For an objective account, with links: http://www.christian...homeschool.html

Thanks! This article doesn't mention anything about questioning someones salvation but rather criticizing someone for their view that there wasn't a world wide flood.

[Spy Car]

I don't know why my copy would not upload, but here is a link to a blog that has it.

 

Disclaimer: I know nothing about the linked blog, other than they have the original AiG cartoon.

 

http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/profiles/blogs/bad-taste

 

Bill

[Kathryn]

 

This was posted right before he found out that he was disinvited. The problem was that he was breaking convention rules that he agreed to by criticizing by name other participants and the convention itself.

 

https://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=186020768110064

 

And Ham has many blog posts about Enns, like this one http://blogs.answersingenesis.org/blogs/ken-ham/2012/12/14/peter-enns-mutilating-gods-word/ where he calls him a heretic, says he doesn't understand what Enns means by the word "Christian," says he mutilates God's word, and can't possibly understand the Gospels if he doesn't believe in a literal Fall.

[teeniebeenie6]

This was posted right before he found out that he was disinvited. The problem was that he was breaking convention rules that he agreed to by criticizing by name other participants and the convention itself.

 

https://www.facebook...186020768110064

 

And Ham has many blog posts about Enns, like this one http://blogs.answers...ting-gods-word/ where he calls him a heretic, says he doesn't understand what Enns means by the word "Christian," says he mutilates God's word, and can't possibly understand the Gospels if he doesn't believe in a literal Fall.

 

Thank you again I do not see any quote of him saying someone is or isn't saved. I agree with him being kicked out of the convention if he broke the rule of criticizing another participant. He should have debated his viewpoint rather then calling out a specific person.

 

I found an old thread from when this first happened: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/260315-ham-strikes-againthis-time-he-goes-after-swb-in-earnest/

[TracyP]

Thank you again I do not see any quote of him saying someone is or isn't saved. I agree with him being kicked out of the convention if he broke the rule of criticizing another participant. He should have debated his viewpoint rather then calling out a specific person.

 

I found an old thread from when this first happened: http://forums.welltr...swb-in-earnest/

 

No, he says that they are not a Christian. For most Christians those two go hand in hand. Perhaps you have a wider understanding of salvation, but I think you could see why many would see it as Ham questioning their salvation.

[Hunter]

Susan :grouphug:

 

I have no comments because I don't keep up with this stuff. I'm still very Mennonite in the way I approach this stuff, even of I don't have enough faith to believe in a deity anymore.

 

It all goes right over my head and I'm content to leave it that way. I just study the science topics that I deal with in my daily life. Then I let science and religion each do what they do best in their own realm, instead of trying to use one to prove or disprove the other.

 

Again :grouphug: :lol:

[Hunter]

Susan, as of this moment this thread has 1,149 views. :lol:

[PachiSusan]

Susan :grouphug:

 

I have no comments because I don't keep up with this stuff. I'm still very Mennonite in the way I approach this stuff, even of I don't have enough faith to believe in a deity anymore.

 

It all goes right over my head and I'm content to leave it that way. I just study the science topics that I deal with in my daily life. Then I let science and religion each do what they do best in their own realm, instead of trying to use one to prove or disprove the other.

 

Again :grouphug: :lol:

 

Thank you for the hugs. I'm good. I was just honestly shocked when I realized that I inadvertently dumped myself right in the middle of the Great Kerfluffle of 2011! I just didn't want to resurrect bad juju!!

[PachiSusan]

Susan, as of this moment this thread has 1,149 views. :lol:

 

Is that a lot for here?

[*Lulu*]

 

 

Thank you for the hugs. I'm good. I was just honestly shocked when I realized that I inadvertently dumped myself right in the middle of the Great Kerfluffle of 2011! I just didn't want to resurrect bad juju!!

 

Don't worry about it too much. I hadn't been here long when that happened and I remember walking away in wide-eyed amazement more than once.

 

Few things around here can make cupcakes and crockpots look like tame discussions! :p

[Hunter]

 

Is that a lot for here?

 

Most don't go over 500, and those that go over 500 usually take more than 24 hours to do that. :lol:

 

Over 1000 people reading a post ANYWHERE is a lot. :lol:

[MissKNG]

SWB= Christian scholar who is pro education.

 

Ken Ham= Christian ideologue who is pro making sh!t up and calling that education.

 

 

 

Oh boy. I'm probably one of the very few that completely disagrees with this. But I also know this board isn't "pro Ken Ham". Oh well, we all have a right to our own thoughts and beliefs.

[SilverMoon]

For another view I suggest searching with "ken ham" (use the quote marks) on Jay Wile's blog and going back to the dates of the Great Kerfuffle. Mr. Wile had a smaller role in the Kerfuffle, though he stayed a gentleman through the whole ordeal. (Wile is the author of the original Exploring Creation with ________ series and founder of Apologia.)

[kiwik]

It is completely unreasonable but I couldn't take someone called Ken Ham seriously.

[PachiSusan]

 

 

Oh boy. I'm probably one of the very few that completely disagrees with this. But I also know this board isn't "pro Ken Ham". Oh well, we all have a right to our own thoughts and beliefs.

 

I'm not pro OR con Ken Ham...through what I've seen, he behaved very badly in this situation.