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girl expelled, charged with felony, at local school


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Actually, I would still be saying the same.

I strongly believe minors should be treated as minors.

Adults should be treated as adults.

If we are going to start treating minors as adults then they should have the rights and responsibilities of adults to begin with.

I also think zero tolerance is not only not helpful, but harmful.

 

See Tibbie Dunbar's post above--#84. That's where I stand. Your post assumes that minors are incapable of making decisions. They are not. Especially today's youth.

 

I'm always amazed at the "think of the children" line. And I'm equally amazed at how many people believe other 16 year olds, not homeschooled and thus, not heavily influenced by their parents supervision; can be just the same as 16 year olds who ARE homeschooled and influenced by parental decisions.

 

I don't believe the worlds are the same or even equal.

 

 

eta: And no, don't even try to claim that I'm saying public school kids are bad and homeschoolers are good or vicey versy. I'm simply stating that this common belief of "she's only 16!" is erroneous at best because I'd wager you are assuming this 16 year old is similar to your own 16 year old (or whatever age). And that this cannot be possible because homeschoolers are in a unique situation to help influence things along a different path that public school parents may not be able to (or want to) take with their own.

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what concerns me, as well as everything else stated, is that if the punishment for this, where no one was hurt, no one was trying to hurt anyone, and no one was being malicious, is expulsion and a felony charge, what on earth do we have left for the kids that are actively trying to hurt people?

 

And I agree with the article someone posted, that 20 years ago this would have been a suspension or, more likely, a lecture and detention. Same with the lighter by the burner. But now they are addressed with expulsion and criminal charges. Are we safer now than we were then? Or did the less extreme punishments work just as well?

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I would still feel the same as well.

 

My dad and brother were killed in a car accident due to a 16 year old, inexperienced driver. It was an accident. My family made it clear that we did not want that one mistake to ruin his life. We talked with him and made it clear this wasn't to ruin his life, and fortunately that powers that be took it easy on him as well. He's never been in any other accidents or trouble. He's turned out to be a great young man with a family of his own. I cannot imagine how it might have turned out if we pushed for punishment because of one mistake.

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I would still feel the same as well.

 

My dad and brother were killed in a car accident due to a 16 year old, inexperienced driver. It was an accident. My family made it clear that we did not want that one mistake to ruin his life. We talked with him and made it clear this wasn't to ruin his life, and fortunately that powers that be took it easy on him as well. He's never been in any other accidents or trouble. He's turned out to be a great young man with a family of his own. I cannot imagine how it might have turned out if we pushed for punishment because of one mistake.

 

 

I'm so sorry. ((((Horton))))

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Another point of view (I'm squarely in agreement with those that say the disciplinary actions are appropriate, so no need to further state it)....

 

For those that are saying the punishment is too harsh and she's just a child who did something stupid, let me ask you this.

 

What if she was in the classroom? What if she had done, as was done just very recently, and started to flicker a lighter near an open flammable source in a chemistry classroom? What if it blew up as a result? Would you still be crying that the punishment was too harsh and that she "only did something stupid"?

 

You see, this actually happened in a classroom recently. Student was playing with the ignition source that lights Bunsen burners and heats things by flickering a lighter in front of the gas outlet. BOOM would have been an understatement. The child's parents screamed the same--he did something stupid, he's sorry, it was just curiosity, he's only a child...etc....

 

What if that teacher had not caught him in time (only takes a few seconds for it to actually go boom, guys)? Would you have been screaming the same?

 

That's why her punishment is appropriate. She was not just stupid, she was really stupid and knew full well what would have happened. She deserves her punishment. And so did the kid playing with an open flame source near an open gas source (for full record: the student turned on the gas source without the teacher's instruction and did this while teacher's back was turned. They were not using the burners that day so student had no business touching them).

 

 

"Aslana,"

 

I know you are "new" here so perhaps you don't understand the board's vibe, if you will.

 

None of us are crying or screaming.

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Love the name in quotes thing. Classy.

 

Some are wailing on and on about this ruining her life, the punishment is too harsh, etc... see what I did there? Wailing... Crying..Screaming... pleading... emoting... it's all the same.

 

And I still do not get that "think of the children" mentality. She could have killed someone. She knew it was a bomb in the making just as the kid knew what fire does to gas in that classroom. It's not just stupidity and I'm not going to chalk it up to an accident either.

 

Again, Tibbie's post about sums it up.

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Love the name in quotes thing. Classy.

 

Some are wailing on and on about this ruining her life, the punishment is too harsh, etc... see what I did there? Wailing... Crying..Screaming... pleading... emoting... it's all the same.

 

And I still do not get that "think of the children" mentality. She could have killed someone. She knew it was a bomb in the making just as the kid knew what fire does to gas in that classroom. It's not just stupidity and I'm not going to chalk it up to an accident either.

 

Again, Tibbie's post about sums it up.

 

 

I just used the quotes because Aslana's not your name.

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See Tibbie Dunbar's post above--#84. That's where I stand. Your post assumes that minors are incapable of making decisions. They are not. Especially today's youth.

 

I was editing my post when you responded, so not sure if you'd read it differently or not.

 

However, I did not say minors are incapable of making decisions. That varies from child to child. (Scientifically we have quite a bit of information on brain chemistry during puberty that implies they are more inclined to make rash decisions and take unnecessary risks.)

 

A 16 year old is still a minor in our legal system...until they do something we deem horrific and awful, then suddenly they are an adult and should be held accountable in the same way. That same teen cannot enjoy the privileges of independence that an adult is afforded. Pretty unfair if you ask me.

 

We consider them children still in the legal system because often they are not ready for that independence and responsibility an adult is expected to have.

 

If we expect them to behave as adults, and plan to punish them as adults, then they need and deserve all the rights, responsibilities and privileges adults are given...including voting, joining the military, drinking and more.

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My grandfather blew up his school's chemistry lab when he was a student. He was very, very, smart. And extremely stupid to do what he did! He did not hurt anyone and he did not intend to hurt anyone. I heard he thought it would be a small boom but it was a big boom. Had he been expelled, arrested, and given a felony, my family would not exist. My grandfather's life would have been ruined, my grandmother would never have met him, and he would not have been able to have his successful business that employed many in the small town that my mother grew up in. I think it is really sad that there is no discretion being used or perhaps allowed in this case. She is a good kid with no record and now she has a felony for trying a science experiment? She would be better off if she'd been caught smoking pot.

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She is a good kid with no record and now she has a felony for trying a science experiment? She would be better off if she'd been caught smoking pot.

 

You just reminded me how just this week I read an adult woman with over 20 citations had her felony charge dropped to a misdemeanor even though she killed someone while driving with a suspended license. This was also in Florida, so you would think this young girl's actions will not result in a felony conviction. At least, I hope not.

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True story here folks, from the files of "This is so nuts I could not make it up!"

 

Dh's high school (sophomore year) chemistry professor had two bottle of household cleaners on the lab table. He showed the kids the labels and implored them to never mix these because one contained ammonia and another bleach. He explained the consequences and then went about his lecture.

 

At some point, absentmindedly, he spilled some of each.

 

Yeah, kids jumped out the windows and their school had to be evacuated while it was contained and aired out.

 

He was not fired nor charged.

 

Faith

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If we expect them to behave as adults, and plan to punish them as adults, then they need and deserve all the rights, responsibilities and privileges adults are given...including voting, joining the military, drinking and more.

 

So, never try them as adults? Ever? What if she had brought a bomb intending to blow up a room full of people?

 

 

Actually, now that I think of it, she clearly DID bring a bomb and intend to detonate it, she just says she didn't think anyone would get hurt. The only difference is intent, but, that matters in judging and sentencing. The crime is still the same.

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Remember, two districts west of me, a 4th grader did end up expelled for the year - yes, that was the final outcome - for the cupcakes with the green, plastic, army men toys on top. The school decided to make an example of him.

 

 

Unbelievable. And sad.

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I'm not sure what an appropriate punishment is, but I think expulsion and prosecution are too much. She was really stupid to a) do this on school grounds, do it on the say-so of someone else without knowing what would happen, c) ignore obvious, old, common school rules about such things. I know plenty of teens who did stupid stuff like this (with full knowledge of possible danger), but they knew better than to do it at school. When you spend all day in a situation where you have to ask permission to go the the bathroom or call your mom and can't even carry your own Tylenol for personal use, it's pretty obvious that making a bomb with toilet cleaner (or even a Diet Coke/Mentos one!) would be a no-no. Suspension, some sort of safety lesson, etc. seem appropriate.

 

I went to a tiny private school. While we technically had a no knife rule, it ended up being changed to "no knives visible unless the teacher asks you to use it" because we had several boys who carried knives for their daily farm/ranch chores and the teachers decided it was unreasonable to expect them to remember to remove them every day. They didn't want to have to suspend anyone for reasonable forgetfulness. This common sense approach was much-appreciated by the students.

 

I had a 14-year-old classmate who intentionally put a paper plate on an electric burner in the kitchen as an "experiment" based on a conversation with another teen. Fortunately the other teen quickly smothered it with a pan lid when it burst into flames. He was flabbergasted that it caught fire, believing that it would require an open flame to ignite the paper. This prompted much mirth from his classmates who couldn't believe he didn't know this. He was lectured and suspended for one day as a reminder to not be stupid and "experiment" with dangerous things like hot stoves without knowing what will happen. And his class got a bonus science lesson when he returned :)

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I will say it's not surprising at all that she is being tried as an adult. This is Florida. It seems to be what we do. I feel like I hear too often of children being tried as adults here while they let adults off the hook too easily.

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But you are the only one who specifically told me that is not your real name.

 

I guess I'm confused? What is your name?

 

 

 

Aslandria. I have stated that before. So yes, Aslana is my name--it's a nickname. And I don't ever recall telling YOU specifically it was not my name. I said to the board that it wasn't my FULL name.

 

Post #92, in this thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/467199-north-korea-how-concerned-should-we-be/page__st__50__hl__+aslandria#entry4881675

 

You did this to me then. Knock it off and leave me alone as the Mod told you then as well.

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Aslandria. I have stated that before. So yes, Aslana is my name--it's a nickname. And I don't ever recall telling YOU specifically it was not my name. I said to the board that it wasn't my FULL name.

 

Post #92, in this thread: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/467199-north-korea-how-concerned-should-we-be/page__st__50__hl__+aslandria#entry4881675

 

You did this to me then. Knock it off and leave me alone as the Mod told you then as well.

 

 

I'm so confused. Why am I supposed to leave you alone?

 

I made a joke that in that thread that obviously no one thought was funny. LOL.

 

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I would still feel the same as well.

 

My dad and brother were killed in a car accident due to a 16 year old, inexperienced driver. It was an accident. My family made it clear that we did not want that one mistake to ruin his life. We talked with him and made it clear this wasn't to ruin his life, and fortunately that powers that be took it easy on him as well. He's never been in any other accidents or trouble. He's turned out to be a great young man with a family of his own. I cannot imagine how it might have turned out if we pushed for punishment because of one mistake.

 

 

(((Horton)))

 

Your family's ability to meet such a tragedy with forgiveness and grace speaks volumes.

Thank you for sharing with us.

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No it isn't.

 

Lab safety is basicly to wear goggles and not mess with stuff in the lab unless directed to and exactly as directed to.

 

Toilet cleaner is common and it has chemicals in it. But no one views it as a chemical. Just like the mentos and coke bottle thing is chemical, but if anyone asked a kid or adult what chemical mentos are they would probably stare blankly at the questioner.

 

Most kids know baking soda and vinigar is good for volcanos and small bottle rockets. And that's often the extent of their labs with common chemicals. Neat. When huge maybe a mess and theoretically dangerous, but not often. And certainly not to a teen who is invisible.

 

My son is 11. I asked him, "If someone suggested to you to mix aluminum foil and toilet cleaner in a bottle, would you do it?" He said, "No." I asked him why. He said, "Because you told me never to play with household chemicals."

 

He doesn't need to know it will explode. He knows that household chemicals are dangerous when used improperly.

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Difference is that boy:

 

Knew exactly what he was doing

 

And

 

Maliciously and purposely put it in another kids face!

 

This girl by all accounts was just being stupid. And at worst only expected a pop noise outside without others around.

 

If she had taken her bottle inside and tossed it at the principals desk as he sat at it? Of heck yeah - lock her up.

 

Intent or damage IS a requirement of crime. (Most of the time!)

 

Absent of both - there's not a crime.

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Difference is that boy:

 

Knew exactly what he was doing

 

And

 

Maliciously and purposely put it in another kids face!

 

This girl by all accounts was just being stupid. And at worst only expected a pop noise outside without others around.

 

If she had taken her bottle inside and tossed it at the principals desk as he sat at it? Of heck yeah - lock her up.

 

Intent or damage IS a requirement of crime. (Most of the time!)

 

Absent of both - there's not a crime.

 

I agree. I just posted it based faith's story

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So fireworks are bombs? But not illegal? Not felonies for sure. But these things are. How many people here on this list knew that before this thread? I think there were a few people, but the majority of ADULTS on this thread did NOT realize that this combo was considered a bomb and would result in a felony charge if we made one. So if we, as adults, didn't know this, why do you keep insisting that all 16 year olds would know this?

 

Actually, in many states, it is illegal to purchase or detonate fireworks.

 

And seriously, a 16yo girl doesn't know that setting off any kind of bomb is a bad thing? :confused:

 

It's not like she didn't know it would explode. It's not like it was some sort of accident.

 

Again, I don't think she should be thrown in jail, but I do think it's ridiculous to think that she didn't know that the thing she made was going to blow up. What other possible reason would she have had to have combined those ingredients and then go way out into the schoolyard with it?

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There is making stuff that is expected to pop, bang, boom and there is an expectation of BOOM!!

 

I think she probably thought it would be more like a mentos & coke type explosion.

 

Sure she should be in trouble. 3 days detention and cleanup duty and a lecture of how bad it could havd been.

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If she knew she was making a BOMB and knew it was dangerous, why was she anywhere near it? I really don't think she knew how dangerous it could be.

 

These bottle bombs have been in our news recently because someone is leaving them in neighborhoods. They heat up and explode. The people leaving them obviously know they are dangerous because they're nowhere near them when they go off.

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Actually, in many states, it is illegal to purchase or detonate fireworks.

 

And seriously, a 16yo girl doesn't know that setting off any kind of bomb is a bad thing? :confused:

 

It's not like she didn't know it would explode. It's not like it was some sort of accident.

 

Again, I don't think she should be thrown in jail, but I do think it's ridiculous to think that she didn't know that the thing she made was going to blow up. What other possible reason would she have had to have combined those ingredients and then go way out into the schoolyard with it?

 

 

There is explosion and there is EXPLOSION. When my son's school showed him how to put alka seltzer tabs in a film canister, with water, and watch the top blow off, that was an explosion. And honestly, other than the caustic chemical issue, it sounds like this was similar...the cap was blown off. With more force I suppose, but heck, if she thought the cap would just blow off that's not really any different than opening a bottle of champagne! She may have had no idea that the entire bottle could burst (and it didn't, from the reports I've read, the cap just popped off). Heck, half the science experiments we do we aren't sure exactly what will happen. Today my son imploded/crushed a soda can by heating it with water in it to make steam, then putting it into a container of cold water. We knew it would contract/expand, but we both jumped when it did so so forcefully that there was a loud BANG. So yeah, we knew kind of what would happen, but not the extent to which it would happen, if that makes sense.

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So I asked my 16 yo. She looked at me as if I was crazy. She said that no one should play with cleaners and she thinks the cleaner could react with either the aluminum foil or the plastic bottle or both.

 

I am not saying the girl should have a felony record. The circumstances like where she did it on the school property and how she did it should be taken account. She did not do it in the school building, like the kid in the story above who was expelled for making chlorine gas and hurting people. She did it before school and not around others. Furthermore, she used a small water bottle versus a soda liter bottle. Much less chance for bad effects with the smaller container (and hence less aluminum and less cleaner). But I am not at all convinced that she is telling the truth. I don't think this was any type of scientific experiment.

 

I think she probably needs to go to another school. In terms of a judicial punishment, I think something like a deferred sentence where it goes off her record if she doesn't get into any more trouble in the next year (or I think better, two years- that is, while she is still a student in high school) would be appropriate. But all we have is the parent;s saying she was a good kid with no problems. I heard similar things with Trayvon Martin but they turned out not to be true.

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But all we have is the parent;s saying she was a good kid with no problems.

 

 

No, her teachers and other school administrators have also said she is a good student, doesn't get into trouble, and they don't think she meant any harm.

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Love the name in quotes thing. Classy.

 

Some are wailing on and on about this ruining her life, the punishment is too harsh, etc... see what I did there? Wailing... Crying..Screaming... pleading... emoting... it's all the same.

 

And I still do not get that "think of the children" mentality. She could have killed someone. She knew it was a bomb in the making just as the kid knew what fire does to gas in that classroom. It's not just stupidity and I'm not going to chalk it up to an accident either.

 

Again, Tibbie's post about sums it up.

 

Hi, Aslana!

 

I am on the "punishment is too harsh" bench.

 

I think it is an example of zero tolerance gone overboard.

 

But I agree that taking the bomb components onto school grounds was a known, stupid, dangerous, and needing-of-consequences act. Serious consequences.

 

But not a felony.

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I hope this girl doesn't get a jury of home educating mothers.

 

I heard she eats her pop tarts into gun shapes, too.

 

Not one person here has suggested this girl go to jail. Just expressing a belief that she comprehends the meaning of the word "bomb".

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This whole thread demonstrates why I get so up tight about parenting teens. They DO do stupid risky stuff, home schooled or not. They do not have the fully developed brain to understand final consequences and they do not have the mental flexibility to think many scenarios through as quickly as an adult might. They need to be shown responsibility for their actions, but they need grace for mistakes. The wisdom of Solomon is required. Why can't kids stay little and cute?

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Not one person here has suggested this girl go to jail. Just expressing a belief that she comprehends the meaning of the word "bomb".

 

 

Actually, prosecuting it as a felony (which many in this thread are in support of) is in support of jail.

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Would you feel differently if these bombs were in your neighborhood or school?

 

Some teenagers in my neighborhood are actually driving by and throwing them at women walking babies in strollers and kids walking home from school.

 

It is terrorism. We are afraid to take walks in our own neighborhood.

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Would you feel differently if these bombs were in your neighborhood or school?

 

Some teenagers in my neighborhood are actually driving by and throwing them at women walking babies in strollers and kids walking home from school.

 

It is terrorism. We are afraid to take walks in our own neighborhood.

 

 

No, I wouldn't feel differently if this girl did it in my area.

 

And I think some teen throwing what they KNOW is dangerous aimed at people, BABIES, shoukd go to jail for a very long time. Because I agree that is terrorizing a neighborhood and nothing at all like a teen causing a bottle cap to blow off in an empty gazebo.

 

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No, I wouldn't feel differently if this girl did it in my area.

 

And I think some teen throwing what they KNOW is dangerous aimed at people, BABIES, shoukd go to jail for a very long time. Because I agree that is terrorizing a neighborhood and nothing at all like a teen causing a bottle cap to blow off in an empty gazebo.

 

The consequences for terrorizing a neighborhood and for one act of foolishness should not be the same.

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Not one person here has suggested this girl go to jail. Just expressing a belief that she comprehends the meaning of the word "bomb".

 

I think several people did say they agreed with the consequences she was facing.

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Culturally speaking, it seems that we are ever striving to a place where we can feel, feel, feel more safe. As a society we are making loads of decisions and setting up systems to make us feel more safe.

 

Zero tolerance policy = feel more safe

 

Put labels on things that could be bad (bomb, IED) = feel more safe

 

Tell parents that children should never, ever be out of their sight or the sight of an authority = feel more safe

 

Give kids a bazillion rules and warning labels = feel more safe

 

But here's the deal--the emotional feeling of safety is no replacement for critical thinking skills.

 

Kids need critical thinking skills. So do school administrators. Critical thinking takes practice, though, doesn't it?

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This thread has almost 2800 views. More than a few people said that they had NO IDEA putting toilet cleaner in a water bottle as an experiment would be a serious problem, and these are adults. So, now we all know. Surely however many hundred kids in the school she's in, and a few thousand in whatever news district she's in, know too. So it's not just that we "feel" safer. Knowledge is power. We know these bombs are dangerous. Kids know there are very serious consequences to engaging in monumentally risky behavior.

 

 

I think several people did say they agreed with the consequences she was facing.

 

I've said I felt the expulsion and charges were appropriate. I do not think she should go to jail, and I haven't heard anyone say that.

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Would you feel differently if these bombs were in your neighborhood or school?

 

Some teenagers in my neighborhood are actually driving by and throwing them at women walking babies in strollers and kids walking home from school.

 

It is terrorism. We are afraid to take walks in our own neighborhood.

 

That IS terrorism. Throwing an explosive weapon at people is attempted murder and I'd support the full extent of the law, trying anyone over the age of 16 as an adult.

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This thread has almost 2800 views. More than a few people said that they had NO IDEA putting toilet cleaner in a water bottle as an experiment would be a serious problem, and these are adults. So, now we all know. Surely however many hundred kids in the school she's in, and a few thousand in whatever news district she's in, know too. So it's not just that we "feel" safer. Knowledge is power. We know these bombs are dangerous. Kids know there are very serious consequences to engaging in monumentally risky behavior.

 

 

 

 

I've said I felt the expulsion and charges were appropriate. I do not think she should go to jail, and I haven't heard anyone say that.

 

You think she should be tried for a felony, but don't think she should go to jail?

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I've said I felt the expulsion and charges were appropriate. I do not think she should go to jail, and I haven't heard anyone say that.

 

 

Don't most people associate felonies with jail or a juvenile detention center? Or are you assuming that the people who think the charges were appropriate are in favor of the most serious charge possible but leniant sentencing that would be more in line with a lesser charge?

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Don't most people associate felonies with jail or a juvenile detention center? Or are you assuming that the people who think the charges were appropriate are in favor of the most serious charge possible but leniant sentencing that would be more in line with a lesser charge?

 

Good kid, no bad intention, no history of problems, very very sorry, she should get very lenient sentencing or a lesser charge. But yes I think bringing a weapon classified as a bomb to school should be a police issue, not exclusively a school affair. Serious crimes that happen on school grounds should be handled in partnership with the police. It's a lesson I've taken to heart after seeing the slap on the wrist typically given to men who rape women on university campuses -- as though it were an internal discipline issue instead of a felony assault.

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Court cases cost a lot of money- especially felony ones. We should not be prosecuting people for felonies for which we hope they are not convicted just to prove a point and to show people it is serious. I have no problem with the girl having consequences, but I don't think it should be criminal consequences.

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Good kid, no bad intention, no history of problems, very very sorry, she should get very lenient sentencing or a lesser charge. But yes I think bringing a weapon classified as a bomb to school should be a police issue, not exclusively a school affair. Serious crimes that happen on school grounds should be handled in partnership with the police. It's a lesson I've taken to heart after seeing the slap on the wrist typically given to men who rape women on university campuses -- as though it were an internal discipline issue instead of a felony assault.

 

 

She did not bring a weapon to school.

 

IF she brought the items...IF...then she brought aluminum foil, toilet bowl cleaner and a plastic bottle. All harmless household items until combined.

 

As for bringing up rape...inappropriate. That's all I'll say.

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