Having kids start college at 12??

[regentrude]

-but I have never witnessed university classes being accessible to the avg middle school student. ??? Seriously. Typically, my kids are ready for some university level courses during their jr and sr yrs of high school. The difference between 12, 14, and 16 is HUGE. And the university courses they take are the courses they are strong in.

 

Yes.

The quality of schools varies tremendously. I can imagine classes that would be accessible for an average 12 y/o (Dana's report about her graduate education classes comes to mind, LOL)- but that is not what I would want for a gifted 12 year old. For a gifted student, it would be beneficial to take intellectually challenging courses - isn't that the whole point of college?

 

Second, taking some college classes is very different from being enrolled full time. My DD is currently taking eight hours of college classes, which are time consuming, require on average 2 hours of outside work for every hour in class, and thus demand 24 hours of her time for two subjects alone. It takes good time management to deal with assignments, tests and deadlines. A full load of rigorous coursework puts a student easily at a 50-60 hour week. *I* would not want this for a young high schooler who, I strongly believes, needs free unstructured time to pursue his extracurricular interests.

 

Lastly, in my eleven years of teaching physics at a four year university, I have had occasionally dually enrolled students. Except for my own 13 y/o who, if I may say so myself, is rather exceptional, those were all Juniors or Seniors. I don't see the hordes of middle schoolers beating down the gates demanding to be allowed to take math or science courses.

[*Michelle*]

Looking at the FL link, it states "Pass the appropriate section of the college placement test.

• Meet any additional admissions criteria set by the postsecondary institution." That means scores and admission. Those require "something."

 

In order to receive the dual enrollment credit at the end of the course, they have to pass that section of the college placement test. As for admissions criteria, that's putting in an application and paying the fee, sending in transcripts, and sending in SAT scores. But all of that comes after taking the course, not before.

 

 

What do you mean by "knock out some college courses" and "career development coursework"?

I guess I am having a fundamentally different view of what college means. College, to me is about the education, not about checking boxes.

If a young student needs the intellectual challenge of college coursework to thrive, I am all for it! But if he can't yet do deep thinking, why do low level classwork that is just barely high school level just so you can check off some required credits (for a not-so demanding major at a not-so demanding school)? Isn't that shortchanging the gifted student who has so much potential and could get so much out of his college education if he were taking classes when he can think deeply and get much out of a rigorous, in-depth class?

 

Just because a class is called "college" does not mean it is intellectually stimulating - or that the credit earned will be useful and transferable for this student when he decides to attend a university or choose a major that matches his potential.

 

To me, college is a gateway to a professional degree. If you want to be a doctor or lawyer or nurse or any other licensed profession, you have to go to college. Education is what you do your entire life. Some of that you get during your time in college, but most of it you get through study in your own life. I'm not talking about completely independent study. I'm talking about attending, on your own time, lectures or auditing courses, or working your way through books that are about the book you're reading, or actually taking classes later on in life when you have the time and money for thinking deeply.

 

If you're working or middle-class, you need to get those boxes checked so that you can get a paycheck. Say my kid wants to be a nurse. He can probably get through the courses required to sit the NCLEX by the time he's 19. So, he does and he passes and now he's an RN making a pretty good wage working three 12s a week. That means he has leisure time and isn't leisure what allows people to sit and think deeply about things? Isn't that the reason why classical education was limited to the nobility or leisure class?

[regentrude]

To me, college is a gateway to a professional degree. If you want to be a doctor or lawyer or nurse or any other licensed profession, you have to go to college. Education is what you do your entire life. Some of that you get during your time in college, but most of it you get through study in your own life. I'm not talking about completely independent study. I'm talking about attending, on your own time, lectures or auditing courses, or working your way through books that are about the book you're reading, or actually taking classes later on in life when you have the time and money for thinking deeply.

 

If you're working or middle-class, you need to get those boxes checked so that you can get a paycheck. Say my kid wants to be a nurse. He can probably get through the courses required to sit the NCLEX by the time he's 19. So, he does and he passes and now he's an RN making a pretty good wage working three 12s a week. That means he has leisure time and isn't leisure what allows people to sit and think deeply about things? Isn't that the reason why classical education was limited to the nobility or leisure class?

 

 

OK, I see where you are coming from - it really seems that we see the purpose of college completely differently. You have a utilitarian view of college, as a means to a specific end. I do not see the primary purpose of college to give a student some sort of vocational training.

I see college as the place to be part of a community of learners, guided by professors who are thinking and researching and who can share their subject expertise and deeper insights with the students. The fact that this education qualifies the graduate for a career in his field of interest is great, but not the sole purpose.

It has been my experience that the utilitarian view of college is rather prevalent in the US, while the view of a university education as simply a means to be an educated person is more prevalent in Western Europe, being rooted in the enlightenment and educational movements in the middle/upper class of the 18 and 19th century. So, our different views may have simply cultural roots.

 

So, my goal would not be to rush a young teen through the necessary certification so he can fulfill the requirements for a paying job at an earlier age.

 

ETA: As an aside: I am not seeing many of those people who pursue this kind of self education you describe; they seem to be exceedingly rare. The majority of people spends their leisure time not listening to college lectures, but watching TV ;-) I don't think I ever had a non-degree seeking student take any of my classes just because he wanted to learn.

It is also not my experience that "later in life" people suddenly have more time for study. On the contrary. The time when young people can devote themselves solely to their studies is before they have family obligations; so it makes sens to get the college education then, and not in your 50s. Plus, it is much easier for young people to grasp new ideas, learn new concepts, deal with abstraction. I often have older students who are going back to school, and while they may have a better motivation and more life experience, they are never at the top of the class, because the abstract math and physics is harder for them to learn.

(Now, the added age may be a benefit if they were studying philosophy... but in science, not so much.)

[8filltheheart]

 

 

In order to receive the dual enrollment credit at the end of the course, they have to pass that section of the college placement test. As for admissions criteria, that's putting in an application and paying the fee, sending in transcripts, and sending in SAT scores. But all of that comes after taking the course, not before.

 

 

 

That is illogical. Placement tests enable a student to place into a course. It isn't an exam the confers credit. Again, admissions is in order to be admitted, not granting credit after a course is completed.

 

You don't have your kids ages in your sig. Have you actually had a student enroll and have it done the way you have posted? B/c that just sounds incredibly unusual. Why would they want transcripts and an SAT score after a student has taken the course? If the student made an A and had low SAT scores, does that mean they don't confer credit b/c they wouldn't have admitted the student?

 

I have gone through this process with 4 students in 3 different states (FL not being one of them), but the process has never resembled what you describe. They have had to have X score to be admitted. They have had to take a math placement test at the university for placement into a specific math course (and this is standard for entering freshman as well) unless they had AP cal scores that allowed them to place via that process. They have had to have X score in English in order to take English comp, etc,etc.

 

And assuming your kids are dual-enrolled, have they had any difficulty transitioning to university level work from homeschooling? Did the workload seem equivalent to what they were doing at home? Some students do have difficulty making transitions. Some don't. Mine haven't, but they know plenty of kids that have. These score are permanent and have to reported on all college applications, so kids that do have trouble adjusting it can hurt their future admission opportunities. And the FL page states that dual enrolled credits do not have to be weighed.

[*Michelle*]

Kind of. I see a professional degree as a means to the end of being able to support yourself. I don't see education as a means to an end, though. I also see education as an end itself. I recognize that college can be a "place to be part of a community of learners," but I don't think it's the only place (albeit a major and important one).

 

I'd like my kids to get their lower-level courses out of the way early on. I'd like them (if they want) to be qualified for their chosen professions early on. I want them to get the practical side nailed down so they can focus on the important side, which is education itself.

[*Michelle*]

That is illogical. Placement tests enable a student to place into a course. It isn't an exam the confers credit. Again, admissions is in order to be admitted, not granting credit after a course is completed.

 

You don't have your kids ages in your sig. Have you actually had a student enroll and have it done the way you have posted? B/c that just sounds incredibly unusual. Why would they want transcripts and an SAT score after a student has taken the course? If the student made an A and had low SAT scores, does that mean they don't confer credit b/c they wouldn't have admitted the student?

 

I have gone through this process with 4 students in 3 different states (FL not being one of them), but the process has never resembled what you describe. They have had to have X score to be admitted. They have had to take a math placement test at the university unless they had AP cal scores that allowed them to place via that process. They have had to have X score in English in order to take English comp, etc,etc.

 

And assuming your kids are dual-enrolled, have they had any difficulty transitioning to university level work from homeschooling? Did the workload seem equivalent to what they were doing at home? Some students do have difficulty making transitions. Some don't. Mine haven't, but they know plenty of kids that have. These score are permanent and have to reported on all college applications, so kids that do have trouble adjusting it can hurt their future admission opportunities. And the FL page states that dual enrolled credits do not have to be weighed.

 

At my high school, you did not have to take a test in order to sign up for a dual enrollment course. You signed up for it and completed. At the end, if you passed the test, you got the credit. My point about the admissions criteria was that even if you have credits earned via DE, you still have to go through the normal admission process when you apply to the university. They didn't accept anyone just because they took a DE course.

 

My oldest is 5, LOL, so DE is far off. I'm going by what my high school did. Granted, that was almost 20 years ago, but as far as I can tell from the school site, the process is the same.

 

Also, the Florida requirements are that starting in 9th grade since 2006, dual enrollment courses have to be weighed the same as AP or IB courses.

[regentrude]

At my high school, you did not have to take a test in order to sign up for a dual enrollment course. You signed up for it and completed. At the end, if you passed the test, you got the credit.

 

So, are you taking about dual enrollment organized through the high school?

Because that is different from walking into a university as a high school age student and requesting to be admitted for classes.

In fact, our university specifically mentions that dual enrolled students are admitted on the basis of academic standards that exceed those for students admitted as regular college students out of high school.

[*Michelle*]

So, are you taking about dual enrollment organized through the high school?

Because that is different from walking into a university as a high school age student and requesting to be admitted for classes.

 

Yes. I went to a college prep academy and you took the DE courses there at the school.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

At my high school, you did not have to take a test in order to sign up for a dual enrollment course. You signed up for it and completed. At the end, if you passed the test, you got the credit. My point about the admissions criteria was that even if you have credits earned via DE, you still have to go through the normal admission process when you apply to the university. They didn't accept anyone just because they took a DE course.

 

My oldest is 5, LOL, so DE is far off. I'm going by what my high school did. Granted, that was almost 20 years ago, but as far as I can tell from the school site, the process is the same.

 

Also, the Florida requirements are that starting in 9th grade since 2006, dual enrollment courses have to be weighed the same as AP or IB courses.

 

If you are approaching this from the perspective of a ps student, than the school is probably recommending the placement which is not going to be the process for a homeschooled student. (though I am not positive that even ps students aren't required to have test scores. All the unis we have used, we have followed the unis process for dual enrollment, not one set up for homeschoolers.

 

OK, now I understand what you mean by applying after the fact. Yes, that is definitely correct. But, homeschoolers are going to have have some sort of proof for placement and admission into courses prior to being allowed to take a course dual enrolled.

 

FWIW, this quote is directly from the FL website you linked: State universities are not required to weight dual enrollment credit in calculating grade point averages for admission.

 

As a homeschooler, you can do whatever you want with the grade on your transcript, but it does not mean the course will receive weight when they re-calculate GPA and consider for admissions. Also, when applying to grad schools, those courses that are used toward degree requirements are going to have to be reported even if taken in high school. Those grades will matter then as well.

[regentrude]

 

Yes. I went to a college prep academy and you took the DE courses there at the school.

 

That is something completely different.

I believe most of us were talking about being admitted to a college or university as a high school student to enroll for classes there.

[Crimson Wife]

Go Bears! :D

 

Bill

 

The main reason I mentioned Cal rather than Stanford is because the commute would be much easier from my house (20 min without traffic vs. 75 min without traffic). Though I'm not sure Stanford even allows undergrads to live at home and commute.

[*Michelle*]

If you are approaching this from the perspective of a ps student, than the school is probably recommending the placement which is not going to be the process for a homeschooled student. (though I am not positive that even ps students aren't required to have test scores. All the unis we have used, we have followed the unis process for dual enrollment, not one set up for homeschoolers.

 

OK, now I understand what you mean by applying after the fact. Yes, that is definitely correct. But, homeschoolers are going to have have some sort of proof for placement and admission into courses prior to being allowed to take a course dual enrolled.

 

FWIW, this quote is directly from the FL website you linked: State universities are not required to weight dual enrollment credit in calculating grade point averages for admission.

 

As a homeschooler, you can do whatever you want with the grade on your transcript, but it does not mean the course will receive weight when they re-calculate GPA and consider for admissions. Also, when applying to grad schools, those courses that are used toward degree requirements are going to have to be reported even if taken in high school. Those grades will matter then as well.

 

That is something completely different.

I believe most of us were talking about being admitted to a college or university as a high school student to enroll for classes there.

 

That's why I stalk the boards. PS and homeschool are such different beasts. My high school felt like a cattle chute sometimes, just funneling us to a university. :)

 

I think the first link may be outdated. The FLDOE site says:

 

Beginning with students entering grade 9 in the 2006-2007 school year, school districts and community colleges must weigh dual enrollment courses the same as advanced placement, International Baccalaureate, and Advanced International Certificate of Education courses when grade point averages are calculated. Alternative grade calculation or weighting systems that discriminate against dual enrollment courses are prohibited.

In Florida, DE coursework transfers to any public state institution with the same course number and they have to treat it as if the course were taken there.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Homeschooling, for my family, is not about a race to get to and done with college.

 

 

For girls who are interested in pursuing a graduate or professional degree, however, I can see a real advantage to going a bit younger than typical because it means they can start a family when most women are still in grad school. One reason I dropped pre-med halfway through college was because I didn't want to be stuck in school or training until I was 30. If I'd had the chance to start college at 14 or 15 and med school at 18 or 19 this would've been less of a concern.

 

I feel a bit conflicted about this issue regarding my oldest DD because she has indicated an interest in a field that requires at minimum a Master's. She keeps pushing to skip to 9th grade this coming fall rather than doing 6th grade. She's capable of doing the work but as of yet has not shown a willingness to produce the output necessary for me to give her high school credit rather than considering it "honors" middle school coursework. But if she did suddenly get her backside in gear, I'd have a hard time telling her no.

[kiana]

FWIW, I see no issues with a 15 year old who wants to be a nurse aiming their university career at that, and so starting to knock out courses which are often required such as psych 101, speech 101, etc. As a matter of fact, that seems like a GREAT idea.

 

What I see as a lot bigger issue is a 12 year old limiting their future by taking 'lite' versions of courses or by achieving substandard grades because they are in a hurry to get a degree. This would apply especially to having 12 year olds go through programs which give them a bachelor's degree in general studies or something similar. This would also apply to overemphasizing vocational development at a young age. It is much more difficult to get financial for a degree once the first degree has been attained, so a child who does a young degree in (purely for hypothesis) computer information systems, and then decides that they want to be a doctor/engineer when they're 20, has a long and hard road ahead of them, mostly self-paid.

[*Michelle*]

FWIW, I see no issues with a 15 year old who wants to be a nurse aiming their university career at that, and so starting to knock out courses which are often required such as psych 101, speech 101, etc. As a matter of fact, that seems like a GREAT idea.

 

What I see as a lot bigger issue is a 12 year old limiting their future by taking 'lite' versions of courses or by achieving substandard grades because they are in a hurry to get a degree. This would apply especially to having 12 year olds go through programs which give them a bachelor's degree in general studies or something similar. This would also apply to overemphasizing vocational development at a young age. It is much more difficult to get financial for a degree once the first degree has been attained, so a child who does a young degree in (purely for hypothesis) computer information systems, and then decides that they want to be a doctor/engineer when they're 20, has a long and hard road ahead of them, mostly self-paid.

 

 

I agree. I don't see the point in getting a random degree at 15 just because one can.

[justamouse]

I think if "college level" work is so easy breezy for most kids, this suggests at least one of the following is true:

* high school is too easy

* college is too easy

 

It is entirely possible for high school level classes to be challenging and demanding.

 

 

Exactly. And we already know the system is broken.

[*Michelle*]

(Now, the added age may be a benefit if they were studying philosophy... but in science, not so much.)

 

 

Ah. And I see philosophy as the ultimate education, so studying it for the rest of my life is what I have to and plan to do. Science and math, yes you need to get in there when your mind still has all its synapses firing. :laugh:

[stripe]

What I see as a lot bigger issue is a 12 year old limiting their future by taking 'lite' versions of courses or by achieving substandard grades because they are in a hurry to get a degree.

 

I worry that there is just so much emphasis on being unusual and different, that people who would (or should) just stick with the usual and traditional are doing something for the emotional boost of bragging about it (possibly mostly for the parents). Like now being normal is a disease.

 

I remember reading a work of fiction involving a girl whose father wanted her to be the youngest admitted to Oxford or something, and she ended up doing horribly, being overwhelmed by the social aspect, and it ruined her relationship with her parents.,.. Gifted by Nikita Lalwani... It was likely inspired by a real girl, Sufiah Yusof, who was admitted to Oxford at thirteen and eventually had a breakdown and became a prostitute.

[Mom0012]

 

 

 

If you don't want to send your kids to university at 14 it probably wouldn't work for your family. :D

 

We moved to the town we are in specifically so we can send our kids to the university at 14 and they can continue to live at home. However, they are dual enrolled, so they will have more options at age 17-18 than students that choose to graduate homeschool early. But our kids would be able to graduate university at age 17 or 18 if that is what they chose to do.

 

 

Melissa-Just curious what you mean when you say they will have more options? What is the benefit of dual enrollment over earning a degree?

 

Thanks!

[Mnemosyne]

 

How would I find this out about my state (WA)? Running start is supposed to be entered in 11th grade. That's all I can find out.

 

 

I took RS in WA.

 

I started winter quarter in 11th grade, part time the first year, full time the second. Didn't quite graduate with a degree. I could take any classes I wanted, up to 18 credits for free. Transferred to a 4 year when I graduated college.

 

My younger brother did two years also, and is now in his freshman year at his 4 year. By the time he went through, he wasn't allowed to take more than 15 credits due to funding cuts.

 

We both applied through our high school to our local community college. The college had a special application form for RS students that the high school councilor and principal had to sign. I believe I also had to submit my high school transcript to them. Not sure about homeschoolers, but I took classes with one and I don't think she had any issues getting in. We had to take the COMPASS test (to get placed into the right reading/writing/math classes if we chose to take them), but no ACT/SAT.

 

As far as the college was concerned, we were regular students. We were assigned councilors, had to get classes signed off on, had to pay for additional classes and books. When we transferred, we submitted both high school and college transcripts, but were accepted as college freshmen (though the transferable credits counted towards college, so I was able to graduate in 3 years and my brother will likely be able to graduate in 2 or 3 years as well). I think credit-wise, I was a sophomore but freshman policies (such as living in the dorms my first year) still applied.

[kiana]

Melissa-Just curious what you mean when you say they will have more options? What is the benefit of dual enrollment over earning a degree?

 

Thanks!

 

 

If you have already earned an associate's degree, many universities will force you to transfer in as a junior.

If you have already earned a bachelor's degree, you will be ineligible for a lot of financial aid should you decide to continue undergraduate education in a different field.

[I.Dup.]

In order to receive the dual enrollment credit at the end of the course, they have to pass that section of the college placement test. As for admissions criteria, that's putting in an application and paying the fee, sending in transcripts, and sending in SAT scores. But all of that comes after taking the course, not before.

 

To me, college is a gateway to a professional degree. If you want to be a doctor or lawyer or nurse or any other licensed profession, you have to go to college. Education is what you do your entire life. Some of that you get during your time in college, but most of it you get through study in your own life. I'm not talking about completely independent study. I'm talking about attending, on your own time, lectures or auditing courses, or working your way through books that are about the book you're reading, or actually taking classes later on in life when you have the time and money for thinking deeply.

 

If you're working or middle-class, you need to get those boxes checked so that you can get a paycheck. Say my kid wants to be a nurse. He can probably get through the courses required to sit the NCLEX by the time he's 19. So, he does and he passes and now he's an RN making a pretty good wage working three 12s a week. That means he has leisure time and isn't leisure what allows people to sit and think deeply about things? Isn't that the reason why classical education was limited to the nobility or leisure class?

 

:iagree:

 

Tens of thousands per year is a pretty steep price to pay for just being a part of "a community of learners." But I definitely see college as a means to an end. I'm thinking of things like engineering, nursing, possibly med school if certain children are more motivated. That kind of thing.

 

If I had been able to complete my nursing degree by the time I was 19, it would have changed my entire life. It would have given me SO many more options.

 

 

I took RS in WA.

 

I started winter quarter in 11th grade, part time the first year, full time the second. Didn't quite graduate with a degree. I could take any classes I wanted, up to 18 credits for free. Transferred to a 4 year when I graduated college.

 

My younger brother did two years also, and is now in his freshman year at his 4 year.

 

So it sounds like your RS credits didn't really advance you and your brother in a 4-year, is that right?

 

Maybe we will move to FL after all :thumbup1:

[justamouse]

FWIW, I see no issues with a 15 year old who wants to be a nurse aiming their university career at that, and so starting to knock out courses which are often required such as psych 101, speech 101, etc. As a matter of fact, that seems like a GREAT idea.

 

What I see as a lot bigger issue is a 12 year old limiting their future by taking 'lite' versions of courses or by achieving substandard grades because they are in a hurry to get a degree. This would apply especially to having 12 year olds go through programs which give them a bachelor's degree in general studies or something similar. This would also apply to overemphasizing vocational development at a young age. It is much more difficult to get financial for a degree once the first degree has been attained, so a child who does a young degree in (purely for hypothesis) computer information systems, and then decides that they want to be a doctor/engineer when they're 20, has a long and hard road ahead of them, mostly self-paid.

 

My Vo Tech has nursing courses that you can take as a part of your nursing degree, and there are APs available to 10th and up, then you can enter County College and finish up the nursing degree. That is a far cry from going to college at 12, though.

[Dmmetler]

I don't think it's something that you choose/set goals for. It's more likely to work if it's something that just happens. FWIW, my DD sort of did her first college class this year (I say sort off because she wasn't even officially auditing-rather, the professor opened his files and class videos and the like to her, and discussed the week's topics with her via Skype or e-mail. It was a zoology class that would have normally had extensive field work/observation, and she couldn't do that component except at the local zoo), and it happened because she was talking to the professor and he offered her the opportunity.

 

I cannot imagine looking at her now and calling her a high school Freshman this next year-she's so patently NOT-but at the same time, I can easily see that in 4 years she's likely to need most of her input at a college level, simply because of where she is now and her past history (of moving steadily awhile, then jumping ahead conceptually, then slowing down once she's at a good level for her, until she jumps again)-but I admit I'm trying not to think of the mechanism by which that college content might be obtained.

[LucyStoner]

 

So it sounds like your RS credits didn't really advance you and your brother in a 4-year, is that right?

 

Maybe we will move to FL after all :thumbup1:

 

I know a family where all 4 kids graduated high school with an AA via RS and then transferred to UW and all graduated in 2 years. UW allows 18 yo students to live with their local parents so with all of them living at home (near the UW campus), they paid less than 1/2 of what they would have. The parents income precluded need based aid but wasn't enough to pay for 4 four year degrees. Graduating without debt is nice. That said, 2 of them ended up with degrees that they didn't end up wanting to use and returning to college in their mid-late 20s, at their own expense. There are ups and downs of this route. Mostly I agree it means the first two years of college are too easy at many community colleges.

 

ETA: all of Washigton's state universities are legally required to accept the state's community college 100 level and up non voc-ed coursework for credit provided a passing grade was earned. So provided a RS student aligns their classes with the degree reqs of their intended major, they should finish their BA or BS one or more quarters early. How many 16 year olds have that foresight? Some. Not all. So some do 2 years of RS and then do 4-5 years at the university.

[regentrude]

Tens of thousands per year is a pretty steep price to pay for just being a part of "a community of learners." But I definitely see college as a means to an end. I'm thinking of things like engineering, nursing, possibly med school if certain children are more motivated. That kind of thing.

 

 

Of course getting a marketable skill through college is also important to me; but I still think the student should be old enough to fully benefit from all a college education has to offer (I am not talking about "college experience", but about the intellectually stimulating atmosphere, the "deep thinking".)

I don't get the rush to get any arbitrary college degree, as early as possible. Most young teens do not know what they want to do with their lives.

 

Since you mention engineering: even most advanced 12 year olds will not be able to take any classwork that would give credit towards an engineering degree.

[vonfirmath]

 

Of course getting a marketable skill through college is also important to me; but I still think the student should be old enough to fully benefit from all a college education has to offer (I am not talking about "college experience", but about the intellectually stimulating atmosphere, the "deep thinking".)

I don't get the rush to get any arbitrary college degree, as early as possible. Most young teens do not know what they want to do with their lives.

 

Since you mention engineering: even most advanced 12 year olds will not be able to take any classwork that would give credit towards an engineering degree.

 

 

Well... The first child in the linked post started college at 12 and now has Masters in both math and Mechanical Engineering. I dunno when she did what classes. But she did something at age 12 that eventually ended up as part of an engineering degree. (And my husband has a Masters in math so I know how much work that is by itself)

[MistyMountain]

These kids have pretty advanced degrees in math and science fields. I don't think they were taking courses that were like high school classes but at a college. they did get good grades. To go to grad school in that field they were not taking simple classes at a college. They would have needed SAT scores and the ability to prove they could handle the courses.They could have advanced skills in reasoning that they could handle deep thinking books as well as more advanced math and science courses too. It sounds like they liked their classes and did really well in them and they are happy in there careers. I would have loved the opportunity to go to college earlier It sounds like a good combo of nurture and nature. They were not forced but they were provided a quality education probably from a really early age and they allowed them to move through things fast since they were home schooled.

[regentrude]

These kids have pretty advanced degrees in math and science fields. I don't think they were taking courses that were like high school classes but at a college. they did get good grades. To go to grad school in that field they were not taking simple classes at a college. They would have needed SAT scores and the ability to prove they could handle the courses.They could have advanced skills in reasoning that they could handle deep thinking books as well as more advanced math and science courses too. It sounds like they liked their classes and did really well in them and they are happy in there careers. I would have loved the opportunity to go to college earlier It sounds like a good combo of nurture and nature. They were not forced but they were provided a quality education probably from a really early age and they allowed them to move through things fast since they were home schooled.

 

 

And their path clearly shows that these are exceptionally gifted children. The education they received was what they needed.

So, most definitely, for a child who is ready for this kind of education, this is wonderful!

 

The reason I am concerned is that I have noticed the trend to do this with "average" kids. On the Accelerated board, we have post on a regular basis from parents who are aiming to send their kids to college very young and who are planning for this from early elementary age by accelerating them through easiest coursework that constitutes the bare minimum for high school. THAT is why I am arguing that early college is a path for the exceptional student who needs this challenge, but not a general one just so the student can get a degree in anything fast and start to work - those kids will be short changed. Previous posters talked about kids who are not ready for deep thinking going to college just to "knock out courses"; the kids in the article obviously were ready for rigorous work. That is the crucial difference.

And even though the mother claims her children are not brilliant - yes, they are.

Suggesting that this can work with all children just through homeschooling is what I am trying to argue against. I have nothing against early college for gifted kids who are at a level of maturity on par with the other students.

[athena1277]

I didn't read all the replies, but I want to say that the school those kids in the video are attending is the university I attended and graduated from. I also worked in the admissions office for a year before dd was born. It is a 4 year school, so yes, they could get a 4 year degree there. There are Master's programs as well as a very good law school there. They are very homeschool friendly, including to those who are not of traditional college age.

[*Michelle*]

Previous posters talked about kids who are not ready for deep thinking going to college just to "knock out courses"; the kids in the article obviously were ready for rigorous work. That is the crucial difference.

 

I wouldn't suggest that any child enroll in college if he's not ready for it. My comments in this thread all assume that the child in question can handle the coursework. I realize that's not the case for every child and I am certainly not in the camp of "accelerating" a child through easy materials in order to have a piece of paper hanging on the wall.

 

The mother says her kids aren't brilliant. Is she being modest? Or is this a reflection of what the human mind is capable of if developed in a certain setting?

[kiana]

The mother says her kids aren't brilliant. Is she being modest? Or is this a reflection of what the human mind is capable of if developed in a certain setting?

 

 

Honestly I would suspect that this is because she spends so much of her time with her own children that they seem very normal to her. It is a very normal attitude to develop -- you compare yourself to the people you see regularly. There are similar studies showing that when people have primarily overweight/primarily underweight friends their sense of a normal body image also skews.

[8filltheheart]

 

 

I wouldn't suggest that any child enroll in college if he's not ready for it. My comments in this thread all assume that the child in question can handle the coursework. I realize that's not the case for every child and I am certainly not in the camp of "accelerating" a child through easy materials in order to have a piece of paper hanging on the wall.

 

The mother says her kids aren't brilliant. Is she being modest? Or is this a reflection of what the human mind is capable of if developed in a certain setting?

 

 

To the latter question, I would suggest that answer is no. Much of it has to do with innate abilities.

[kiana]

The reason I am concerned is that I have noticed the trend to do this with "average" kids. On the Accelerated board, we have post on a regular basis from parents who are aiming to send their kids to college very young and who are planning for this from early elementary age by accelerating them through easiest coursework that constitutes the bare minimum for high school.

 

I see this as well. Furthermore, a lot of said posters have no real idea about how higher education works, and will cavalierly say things like "Oh we are going to do an online high school diploma (with no post-algebra courses) and then do an online college degree in general studies and we are going to be all done by the time they're 16 and after that they can do med school or law school if they want" and blissfully ignore the reality that this is not an education that will get you into anything other than a job which requires "any degree".

 

Pfui.

[*Michelle*]

I can understand that, but we're also making a lot of assumptions that go beyond the information shared in the article.

[8filltheheart]

I can understand that, but we're also making a lot of assumptions that go beyond the information shared in the article.

 

 

Not really. I am basing my replies on teaching K-12 for almost 2 decades and seeing what level of mental development is required for high school/college level work. My kids are not all equal in ability. I have very avg kids intermixed with a few very advanced kids. They think differently. They learn differently. And my avg kids could not be "made" into my advanced kids by simply changing what they are exposed to.

[Dmmetler]

 

And their path clearly shows that these are exceptionally gifted children. The education they received was what they needed.

So, most definitely, for a child who is ready for this kind of education, this is wonderful!

 

The reason I am concerned is that I have noticed the trend to do this with "average" kids. On the Accelerated board, we have post on a regular basis from parents who are aiming to send their kids to college very young and who are planning for this from early elementary age by accelerating them through easiest coursework that constitutes the bare minimum for high school. THAT is why I am arguing that early college is a path for the exceptional student who needs this challenge, but not a general one just so the student can get a degree in anything fast and start to work - those kids will be short changed. Previous posters talked about kids who are not ready for deep thinking going to college just to "knock out courses"; the kids in the article obviously were ready for rigorous work. That is the crucial difference.

And even though the mother claims her children are not brilliant - yes, they are.

Suggesting that this can work with all children just through homeschooling is what I am trying to argue against. I have nothing against early college for gifted kids who are at a level of maturity on par with the other students.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

And it's the maturity that's the kicker. I was talking with DD's lab science teacher yesterday, and we both decided that, while DD is MORE than ready for the middle school science classes content-wise, she's simply not ready to be in a classroom of 6th-8th graders. She's 8. If anything, she's an immature 8. She's just an 8 yr old who loves science and is good at math to the degree that she can handle middle school and higher science content at this point. She's the kid who does detailed field notes and a good, solid research article, similar to what you see in journals-on a STUFFED animal.

 

A 12 yr old who acts 12 isn't going to do well in college classes. There's just a lot expected on the executive functioning side that most 12 yr olds don't have. As a college faculty member, I can attest that many 18-19 yr olds don't have them yet, either. And even in the gifted world, kids who are both cognitively and emotionally mature, with advanced social and executive functioning skills are rare. They do exist. But it's not something that even the "typical" Ruf Level 5 kid who is capable of finishing high school by age 12 kid can do. Because there is a BIG difference between being able to handle college content and being able to handle college classes.

[Arcadia]

The mother says her kids aren't brilliant. Is she being modest? Or is this a reflection of what the human mind is capable of if developed in a certain setting?

 

 

Brilliant can be a subjective word. On one hand she is probably humble, on the other hand I don't know how she benchmark brillance.

Than there is the big nature vs nurture debate. I have a cousin with down syndrome. I see first hand with down syndrome children what nurture can do. On the other hand I have cousins on academic scholarships that coast through school are scholars and make Deans list with no nurturing from school or parents academic wise.

[Mom0012]

To the latter question, I would suggest that answer is no. Much of it has to do with innate abilities.

 

I have found this to be the case with my own children. I have worked extremely hard with each of them, and while I am seeing the fruits of that labor, they are each still very different children with completely different academic potential. I think each child has his or her own innate potential and you can do everything possible to maximize that, but you still will not make an neurosurgeon out of a child with average abilities.

[Crimson Wife]

 

Honestly I would suspect that this is because she spends so much of her time with her own children that they seem very normal to her. It is a very normal attitude to develop -- you compare yourself to the people you see regularly. There are similar studies showing that when people have primarily overweight/primarily underweight friends their sense of a normal body image also skews.

 

 

There is also the whole "clustering" issue. I remember reading a statistic when my oldest was little that only 3% of entering kindergarteners could sound out words and only 1% were fluent readers. This really surprised me because at the elementary school in my hometown, it was about 50% entering as fluent readers. So if that is your peer group, then having a child who is reading before kindergarten is normal rather than unusual.

[kiana]

 

There is also the whole "clustering" issue. I remember reading a statistic when my oldest was little that only 3% of entering kindergarteners could sound out words and only 1% were fluent readers. This really surprised me because at the elementary school in my hometown, it was about 50% entering as fluent readers. So if that is your peer group, then having a child who is reading before kindergarten is normal rather than unusual.

 

 

Yes, absolutely, and this exacerbates the issue. Not only are all your kids clever (and they ARE at the very least clever to be able to do this) but most of the people you know has clever kids who are at least a few grades accelerated -- it's very easy to jump from that to 'everyone else is just like me'.

 

("you", btw, is in general here and not in specific)

[Dmmetler]

And I think clustering is even more common among homeschoolers. My homeschool group is mostly parents who pulled kids for academic reasons. Lots of GT kids, lots of LD kids, little in the middle. It wasn't until I googled writing samples and rubrics that I realized that, almost every kid in DD's 1st-3rd grade World studies class this year is advanced in writing, especially since if there's one complaint parents give most it's "He HATES to write" or "How am I ever going to teach her to write?".

[Mandy in TN]

Hmmm STEM snobs lol

 

Most college degrees outside of STEM fields do not require calculus and a number of college degrees in STEM fields do not require calculus. Also, there are numerous parents that do not feel comfortable teaching high school level maths and dual enrollment is often cheaper than a tutorial and certainly cheaper than a private tutor. So, to say that you need to be taking calculus in order to be taking a real college course or for dual enrollment to be worth it is simply not true. lol

 

Just wanted to throw this out there, so that those parents looking at this who have kids who will never take calculus know that dual enrollment is still a viable option. ;)

Mandy

[8filltheheart]

Hmmm STEM snobs lol

 

Most college degrees outside of STEM fields do not require calculus and a number of college degrees in STEM fields do not require calculus. Also, there are numerous parents that do not feel comfortable teaching high school level maths and dual enrollment is often cheaper than a tutorial and certainly cheaper than a private tutor. So, to say that you need to be taking calculus in order to be taking a real college course or for dual enrollment to be worth it is simply not true. lol

 

Just wanted to throw this out there, so that those parents looking at this who have kids who will never take calculus know that dual enrollment is still a viable option. ;)

Mandy

 

The kids in the article were not dual enrolled. They were enrolled, bachelor degree earning students. Dual enrolling for a few classes is pretty normal.

 

Taking college alg or precal dual enrolled is not a sign of being an academically radically accelerated student. Those are typical high school classes. No one is suggesting that you shouldn't dual enroll your students for those classes. The pt is that they are not the equivalent of standard level university classes being taken at incredibly young ages (like a 12 yr old.)

 

College comp is not the equivalent of college literature, etc. If a student is enrolled in a college literature class, they should expect college level reading and output. If it isn't, it is as Stripe suggests.......then the college work isn't college level work. No one is saying that they shouldn't take the classes if they are ready. But again, that is not the same as being a degree seeking student at 12 or even 14.

[Mnemosyne]

So it sounds like your RS credits didn't really advance you and your brother in a 4-year, is that right?

 

Maybe we will move to FL after all :thumbup1:

 

It advanced us a lot. I wasn't too smart about what classes I was taking, though, and took a lot of fun law enforcement classes that didn't transfer. My brother took a lot of pre-reqs and has already knocked out almost all his breath classes (and is only in his second quarter at his university, now).

 

Also, if you did get your Associates during RS, all breath classes (the curriculum outside of the major) are waived at most universities (at least in WA).

[Mandy in TN]

Dual Enrollment for a few classes is not normal. The vast majority of high school graduates in the US graduate without any dual enrollment, CLEP, or AP credits.

 

A semester of college algebra or precalculus should cover more information with more application in one semester than a full year of algebra 2 or precalculus at a high school level. Even if college algebra or college precalculus is taught in high school, it is still all that is required of most college degrees and a 12yo doing this level math is definitely accelerated as by definition he is ahead of his age level peers. He may even be radically accelerated, but not interested in math beyond taking what he needs or those may be his first courses and the college he attends may require he take those due to age as a hoop to jump through prior to a calculus sequence.

 

Literature is the same thing. Most 4 year institutions require 2 semesters of composition, but most degrees only require 1 semester of literature and this requirement can often be filled with a course on children's literature (this may even be the required lit course if you are an elementary ed major) or fantasy literature or some other course that doesn't require Milton.

 

I do understand that the children in the article were degree seeking. Whether dual enrolled or degree seeking, I didn't want another homeschooler to read this thread and be discouraged that their 16yo was only taking college algebra- that somehow only taking general college requirements was to be looked down upon. Everyone who attends college will not go into a STEM field. Most other degrees do not require calculus. Many college degrees only require one semester of literature and often this can be course that isn't designed for literature majors.

 

Just wanted to encourage other homeschoolers who have kids who are a little ahead, who are not going into STEM fields, who will never take an advanced literature course, or who will not be attending tier 1 schools. A lot of kids fall into at least one of these categories. ;)

Mandy

[Mandy in TN]

Just wanted to encourage other homeschoolers who have kids who are a little ahead, who are not going into STEM fields, who will never take an advanced literature course, or who will not be attending tier 1 schools. A lot of kids fall into at least one of these categories. ;)

Mandy

 

I would even guess that a lot of kids who graduate from college while still in their teens fall into one or more of these categories and that forcing them to stay in high school would not always or even often have been in their best interest. :)

Mandy

[shawthorne44]

I wish I could have done this. My High School's parking lots were adjacent to the large State University I ended up attending, so it would have been easy. My mother was very into the social aspect of school i.e. Prom (I wasn't).

 

I think I can understand the mom's comment about her kids being average. I've always thought I have average intelligence (still do). Yet, I am Mensa. I am just really good at taking tests. Most people I know in the group think the same.

 

I think a lot of college is checking boxes. At least half of the classes I took were like that. Geology, Art Appreciation, Russian, Pysch and Racquetball come to mind immediately. My "atmosphere of learning" mainly came from studying in the room set aside for my major and the interesting discussions over beer at the local pub. This is coming from someone that liked taking classes and would totally do it again if I didn't have to work.

[momto2Cs]

A 12 yr old who acts 12 isn't going to do well in college classes. There's just a lot expected on the executive functioning side that most 12 yr olds don't have. As a college faculty member, I can attest that many 18-19 yr olds don't have them yet, either. And even in the gifted world, kids who are both cognitively and emotionally mature, with advanced social and executive functioning skills are rare. They do exist. But it's not something that even the "typical" Ruf Level 5 kid who is capable of finishing high school by age 12 kid can do. Because there is a BIG difference between being able to handle college content and being able to handle college classes.

 

 

EXACTLY what I was trying to say. There is a world of difference between being academically ready for higher level classes, and the maturity level of the average 12 year old versus the 18-19 year olds that make up the bulk of the classes.

[Melissa B]

Melissa-Just curious what you mean when you say they will have more options? What is the benefit of dual enrollment over earning a degree?

 

Thanks!

 

 

Sorry, running like crazy this week. Dual enrolled students can wait until near graduation time to decide whether or not to accept the college credits and take an upper level standing at university or basically deny them and enter as a freshman. If one wanted to go to an ivy league school that doesn't accept dual enrollment, he/she can decide to use any college credit as advanced high school credit only and begin again as a freshman.