Heavy sigh ... Update on my "sticky situation"

[dirty ethel rackham]

So, dd had two sessions of private rock climbing coaching with my friend who agreed to take her on. Those went fairly well but they are feeling each other out. But, we had a competition on Saturday and it was a disaster ... dd climbed well, but their relationship is teetering on the brink. At these local competitions ... they have 3 hours to climb and they get in line to get on routes, talking with other climbers while waiting. They are loud and chaotic. Her coach kept talking about being "focused." Well, apparently, her coach's expectations of what "focused" looks like are different than dd's. He wants her to ignore her friends and always be watching other climbers on the wall and discuss things with him. She was expecting to spend some time with her friends ... not just socializing, but discussing routes and working together to solve them. This is what she sees elite climbers do at comps. Very few of these elite competitors are "focused" like her coach expects her to be.

 

After the comp, her coach expressed to me that he was disappointed in her and didn't think she was taking things seriously. Dd expressed her frustration with his hovering and not getting what makes her tick. She doesn't climb just to excel ... she climbs because she loves it. Part of what she loves is the communal aspect (and that is part of what I love.) She is not willing to give this up - partially because it makes her love the sport and partially because she sees other climbers succeed without becoming "machines." After thinking about this, I remembered his old proteges ... his best climber walked away from the sport at the tender age of 12 and never looked back. I don't want that for dd, nor does she. So ... we will have an uncomfortable conversation today at her coaching session. I am hoping that we can come to a happy medium, but dd and I are prepared to walk away from this if we cannot come to a meeting of the minds.

 

If I can ask for prayers, please pray for the conversation to go well and that we can stay on good terms, even if we have to part ways.

[StaceyinLA]

That stinks! I'll be praying for resolution.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This is the new coach who wants her to be "focused"?

[dirty ethel rackham]

This is the new coach who wants her to be "focused"?

 

Yep. I really think his idea of focused and hers are two different things. I don't think he is necessarily wrong, but neither is she.

[Candid]

First, I think discussing this with the coach is a good thing to do. If possible all three of you together.

 

In baseball, a coach wants his team focused on the game even when they are on the bench during their part of the inning to bat. In particular they should be watching the pitcher, seeing what he is doing and how batters are responding to him. You might quickly learn that the pitcher only has two pitches and one of them is almost always thrown at a certain time. I expect this is why the coach wants your dd looking at the other climbers. PLUS if she has never climbed before I suspect he thinks she can learn more from watching than talking with others even if that talk is climb focused.

 

However, he needs to hear from her that the teamwork part is important to her.

 

I don't know enough about rock climbing to know all the details. So some questions that might make a difference:

Is she on a team of a set number of climbers? And does this guy coach that team? If so she might have to put up with him and learn what she can from him while still getting the team part down.

 

BUT she should follow up with him about the planning aspects. Maybe he doesn't think she has anything to add just yet and in another few months she'll be able to talk more. It would be good to learn that. If he is an experienced coach he maybe aware of details about the team work and how a team is built that your dd isn't aware of. Maybe she is talking over the one team member who is best at doing the planning (I know she would not be doing that intentionally but it does happen). Or maybe he has learned that it is best for new members of a team to be quiet for their first few events to help them learn the team dynamic.

 

Or does he coach and then she finds a team on her own OR is assigned to one by the event? In this case, it might be the case that he is not a good coach for her to take with her to events.

[Unicorn.]

Oh, that's too bad. I hope that if you explain to him about talking w/ other climbers about determining the best routes, and point out that the elite climbers do it, that he'll listen. Good luck today!

[dirty ethel rackham]

First, I think discussing this with the coach is a good thing to do. If possible all three of you together.

 

In baseball, a coach wants his team focused on the game even when they are on the bench during their part of the inning to bat. In particular they should be watching the pitcher, seeing what he is doing and how batters are responding to him. You might quickly learn that the pitcher only has two pitches and one of them is almost always thrown at a certain time. I expect this is why the coach wants your dd looking at the other climbers. PLUS if she has never climbed before I suspect he thinks she can learn more from watching than talking with others even if that talk is climb focused.

 

However, he needs to hear from her that the teamwork part is important to her.

 

I don't know enough about rock climbing to know all the details. So some questions that might make a difference:

Is she on a team of a set number of climbers? And does this guy coach that team? If so she might have to put up with him and learn what she can from him while still getting the team part down.

 

BUT she should follow up with him about the planning aspects. Maybe he doesn't think she has anything to add just yet and in another few months she'll be able to talk more. It would be good to learn that. If he is an experienced coach he maybe aware of details about the team work and how a team is built that your dd isn't aware of. Maybe she is talking over the one team member who is best at doing the planning (I know she would not be doing that intentionally but it does happen). Or maybe he has learned that it is best for new members of a team to be quiet for their first few events to help them learn the team dynamic.

 

Or does he coach and then she finds a team on her own OR is assigned to one by the event? In this case, it might be the case that he is not a good coach for her to take with her to events.

 

 

My daughter has been climbing competitively for 3 years on a team at our local gym. However, the gym treats team as a profit center and is not very invested in their success in competition. While she gets some good climbing instruction on team, her successes thus far in competition have been on her own - they rarely send a coach to competition, not that they'd do much good because most of them don't have competition experience - they are more like guides and instructors. She narrowly missed qualifying for Nationals last year and a good coach could have helped her prevent the mistake that cost her. She has some great friends on team and has made many friends from other gyms and other states on the competition circuit. She tries to climb with them outside of team whenever she gets the chance. Due to the fact that our gym is not very interested in how climbers do in competition, I was thrilled when this private coaching situation came up. He is only coaching her right now ... he basically came out of coaching "retirement" to work with her.

 

Dd does watch other climbers on the wall and she talks with her fellow climbers on how best to attack the routes, learning from both. This serves both social and competitive purposes. His style of coaching at this competition completely removed the social comraderie that she has grown accustomed to (and sees in the older, elite climbers.) I think if he were coaching an entire team, there would have been more teamwork, but he is her coach. I am paying him and he is not interested in other clients at this time.

 

I think I have what I want to say to him worked out in my head. I just hope he can understand where we are coming from and either decide that he can work with who she is to bring out the best in her or agree that it won't work out and leave on friendly terms.

[Tap]

I hope your meeting goes well. I know you have it worked out in your mind, but I will still offer a few 'cents' of BTDT advice.

Ds18 was a competitive swimmer for several years. He also climbed recreationally for a bit, so while I haven't been to competitions, I have a basic understanding.

Ds had a swim coach who was very well regarded in the sport. He was known for being hardnosed and VERY detail oriented. He would push kids hard (goals were set that were almost unattainable), be aggressive in calling kids out on lack of focus, called names and was very slow to give complements. Ds didn't like the way he coached him, but he got results and ds was a much better swimmer due to the coaching he recieved.DS had him as a team coach and a private coach as well 2x per week. Despite DS not loving his coaching style, when he his coach left his team and switched to a new team, ds wanted to follow. That meant a 45 minute drive each way ontop of practices. Ds was willing to make the commitment, because of the results this coach got out of him. Love - hate, didn't matter. It was about results. He continued to swim under him for another year until ds left the sport.

DS did respect this coach, immensely! He loved him and hated him at the same time. LOL He strived for his rare accolades and he knew when he got a complement...the coach meant it through and through. DS did burn out on the sport and possibly the coach had something to do with it, I don't know. I think it was just time for ds to move on to other things in his life. This is common in teens as interests change and the time commitment to individual sports starts to overtake a life. I do know that it was some of the best coaching DS ever had, and his swimming paid off from his coaching. Ds knows this, and has no hard feelings towards him. Sitting on the side of the pool, people always commented on ds's strokes and how beautiful of a swimmer he was. It was obvious what the coaching brought to DS's stroke.

I did call the coach on a few comments, and he apologized and never made the comment again to ds or any other swimmer. He understood that he had crossed the line (he was a university coach, before returning to coach younger teens).

When you talk to the coach today do consider what you are paying for. Yes, your daughter needs to get along with her coach, but do understand that while your daughter want the camaraderie of her peers, this coach isn't there to babysit your daughter and let her hang out. He is there for one purpose and one only…To improve her climbing, above and beyond (maybe even despite of) what she gets out of her social climbing club. He is trying to teach her, what makes him great and how to get results. The methods he uses are what he is teaching her. What is the point of the coach being there, if she is just going to continue to do things the way she has already been doing them? Maybe this is why the other coaches are not attending the competitions. The kids are in their kid zone of chatting about the wall, so they may feel ineffective.

I can't imagine DS would have lasted long at swim meets if he had to sit there and analyze other swimmers for 3 hours so I do get that, but I think your daughter and coach can come to a compromise on the situation also. Maybe he shows up late and she has the first bit of time with her friends, with a commitment to talk to him one-on-one for the last 45 minutes or so before her climb. Maybe if she takes some notes when she is talking to her friends and then discusses those points with the coach to show she is strategizing not just chatting, would go a little ways with him.

I agree that a common ground may be found and it is worth working toward, but your daughter may just need to come around to the fact that this is how he coaches, and this is what he expects from someone he is working with. She can take it or leave it, but she may be leaving a gold mine of information behind over a few missed conversations with friends.

[happi duck]

Oh my! From your previous post it never seemed like the 'stickiness' would be on this side of the equation! Hope all goes well!

[gardenmom5]

So, dd had two sessions of private rock climbing coaching with my friend who agreed to take her on. Those went fairly well but they are feeling each other out. But, we had a competition on Saturday and it was a disaster ... dd climbed well, but their relationship is teetering on the brink. At these local competitions ... they have 3 hours to climb and they get in line to get on routes, talking with other climbers while waiting. Her coach kept talking about being "focused." He wants her to ignore her friends and always be watching other climbers on the wall and discuss things with him. She was expecting to spend some time with her friends ... not just socializing, but discussing routes and working together to solve them. This is what she sees elite climbers do at comps. Very few of these elite competitors are "focused" like her coach expects her to be.

 

She doesn't climb just to excel ... she climbs because she loves it.

you and your daughter, and this new coach - have very different ideas. the new coach is looking at making her an elite climber. does she want to be in that catagory? do you want her to reach that catagory?

 

her friends do not know as much about climbing as this coach - his guidance in climbing and routes will be worth much more than her friends.

 

you said she climbs because she loves it - well, just how far does she want to go?

[Jan in SC]

I would try to take her to a different competition without the rest of her team and see how they mesh. She might see more value in his way, and he might see what she loves about the sport, but then you can get together and try to mesh the two ideas. It's obviously important for your dd to be happy in her sport, yet at the same time you are paying an expert to improve her, which usually means changing the athlete in some way.

[dirty ethel rackham]

Well, the meeting went as about as I thought it would. It was uncomfortable, there were tears, but dd and her coach decided to part ways. He has his way of coaching and she was intimidated by it. She is not a shrinking violet by any means, nor is she a terribly stubborn person, so I am somewhat surprised that we couldn't make it work. She is a totally different person with this coach than she is with anyone else she has worked with (on anything!) She has a ton of potential, but I guess she doesn't want it badly enough to give up what makes this fun. This coach is not willing to work with someone who is not 100% committed to his way of doing things. She knows that there are other ways since she competes against elite climbers who train differently. I know that there are coaches that would be a better fit, but those gyms are just too far away for us to commit to working with them on a regular basis.

 

BTW, these warm-up comps don't really mean anything as far as standings go. They are just required to do them. What really matters is the championship series. Dd was not willing to completely give up the fun part of these warm-up comps. I have seen her turn into the Terminator at the championship series. This coach wants all Terminator, all the time. It wasn't fair to him and not fair to my daughter to try to continue. We parted friends.

 

Since most of the good coaches are at gyms a little too far for us to make happen on a regular basis, we are looking to perhaps train with them over the summer.

[Jean in Newcastle]

As uncomfortable as the meeting was, I think it was good that you all noticed the disparity in style and expectations right away and sat down to discuss it. And I'm glad that you parted amicably.

[Plink]

Oh, too bad.

 

For what it is worth, one of the best pieces of advice I ever received re: working with new instructors came on the first breath of mentorship from a very wise woman:

 

"I don't care if your last instructor told you a different way, showed you a great tip, or did things completely opposite of my method. You a paying me to teach you. I am great at what I do, and I will teach you what I know, but you need to be willing to put aside all of your preconceived notions. I can only teach you what I know to be true for me. If you find a different way to be true for you later, well then great, but for now, try my way. It is the best of what I have to offer. If you think you know a better way, then you don't need me."

 

She taught me a lot that I didn't think I needed to learn.

[Lilaclady]

Glad you parted friends. All the best with your dd.

[Desert Rat]

I'm sorry to hear this!

[Melissa in Australia]

:grouphug:

[Tammyla]

Oh my. I'm sorry, I know you both wanted this to work out. It's likely better to know this stuff sooner rather than later, but it's too bad it didn't work out.

[Trish]

This is the RockClimbing version of Goldilocks. First there was the local group that wasn't serious enough. Now there is the coach who is TOO serious. Somewhere out there, will be the situation that's "just right." Hope you and DD find it!

[ktgrok]

Well, the meeting went as about as I thought it would. It was uncomfortable, there were tears, but dd and her coach decided to part ways. He has his way of coaching and she was intimidated by it. She is not a shrinking violet by any means, nor is she a terribly stubborn person, so I am somewhat surprised that we couldn't make it work. She is a totally different person with this coach than she is with anyone else she has worked with (on anything!) She has a ton of potential, but I guess she doesn't want it badly enough to give up what makes this fun. This coach is not willing to work with someone who is not 100% committed to his way of doing things. She knows that there are other ways since she competes against elite climbers who train differently. I know that there are coaches that would be a better fit, but those gyms are just too far away for us to commit to working with them on a regular basis.

 

BTW, these warm-up comps don't really mean anything as far as standings go. They are just required to do them. What really matters is the championship series. Dd was not willing to completely give up the fun part of these warm-up comps. I have seen her turn into the Terminator at the championship series. This coach wants all Terminator, all the time. It wasn't fair to him and not fair to my daughter to try to continue. We parted friends.

 

Since most of the good coaches are at gyms a little too far for us to make happen on a regular basis, we are looking to perhaps train with them over the summer.

 

I totally get this. I am your daughter. I mean, I'm a terrible climber, lol, but I have the same personality. And you know what, I HAVE seen it in elite athletes as well, and I think you are right to let her take her own path. Also, did this coach start off in a different sport maybe? Just wondering as I have heard that different sports have different styles...for instance anecdotally cyclists have a more intense persona than runners, etc. Or maybe your daughter is just an old soul and knows that this is all in fun, at the end of the day.

 

Good for you for sticking up for her!

[dirty ethel rackham]

I totally get this. I am your daughter. I mean, I'm a terrible climber, lol, but I have the same personality. And you know what, I HAVE seen it in elite athletes as well, and I think you are right to let her take her own path. Also, did this coach start off in a different sport maybe? Just wondering as I have heard that different sports have different styles...for instance anecdotally cyclists have a more intense persona than runners, etc. Or maybe your daughter is just an old soul and knows that this is all in fun, at the end of the day.

 

Good for you for sticking up for her!

 

Thanks.

 

Funny you should mention the coach's previous sport. He was a gymnast in a former life... now it all makes sense. Rock climbing tends to be a laid back sport. Most people who climb love the outdoors and like having balance in their life. Lots of climbers do yoga, if that tells you anything. The comaraderie is a very important part of the climbing culture. At competitions, it is not uncommon for competitors to cheer for each other. At our first Regional championship, I was totally shocked to hear other parents I had never met before cheering my daughter on when she got to a crux move on the wall. There are a few pockets in the competitive climbing world that are more like elite gymnastics, but they are often scoffed at by the rest of the climbing world as being just a little insane :laugh: . I have a feeling this is going to change now that climbing is on the short list for the 2020 Olympic games.

 

ETA: And yes, dd is more of an old soul. I think she gets the big picture, sometimes more than I do.

[Candid]

Sounds like it worked out for the best.

[ktgrok]

Thanks.

 

Funny you should mention the coach's previous sport. He was a gymnast in a former life... now it all makes sense. Rock climbing tends to be a laid back sport. Most people who climb love the outdoors and like having balance in their life. Lots of climbers do yoga, if that tells you anything. The comaraderie is a very important part of the climbing culture. At competitions, it is not uncommon for competitors to cheer for each other. At our first Regional championship, I was totally shocked to hear other parents I had never met before cheering my daughter on when she got to a crux move on the wall. There are a few pockets in the competitive climbing world that are more like elite gymnastics, but they are often scoffed at by the rest of the climbing world as being just a little insane :laugh: . I have a feeling this is going to change now that climbing is on the short list for the 2020 Olympic games.

 

ETA: And yes, dd is more of an old soul. I think she gets the big picture, sometimes more than I do.

 

 

Lol, I knew it! He just didn't sound like a climber to me. In the animal world there are similar things...people that do Agility are much more competitive and intense than people that do tracking, for instance. I ended up doing tracking after figuring out the different vibes.