Do homeschooled teens become drug/alcohol addicted?

[delaney]

 

Obesity may have a true medical cause or it may reflect poor lifestyle choices. I leave it up to God to judge whether the individual has treated his/her body as a temple or a garbage dump.

 

Oh boy here we go. So obese people go to hell? I am so confused. Alcohol addiction is a character flaw but food addiction is a religious one?

[Guest inoubliable]

 

They CHOSE to consume drugs or alcohol. You cannot get addicted if you never start drinking or taking drugs.

 

What about people who are prescribed drugs and end up addicted?

[LucyStoner]

I obviously come from a family with a history and perhaps gene for addiction. That said, I can apparently safely drink adult beverages without becoming addicted. This may be because I expressed my addictive tendencies with more socially acceptable process rather than chemical things like work or perhaps because a large part of my identity in high school was being a st8 edge punk rock kinda gal and thus I've never tried drugs and the first time I tried alcohol beyond a sip at communion or dinner was when I was about 20 and was a heck of a lot smarter and developed mentally than I was when I was 13 or so.

[bettyandbob]

 

I prefer to understand the people as broken and needing compassion. We ALL have character flaws, ( otherwise we'd have no need for redemption.)

 

 

Apparently, some people have no character flaws. It appears such people have no compassion either.

[I.Dup.]

I obviously come from a family with a history and perhaps gene for addiction. That said, I can apparently safely drink adult beverages without becoming addicted. This may be because I expressed my addictive tendencies with more socially acceptable process rather than chemical things like work or perhaps because a large part of my identity in high school was being a st8 edge punk rock kinda gal and thus I've never tried drugs and the first time I tried alcohol beyond a sip at communion or dinner was when I was about 20 and was a heck of a lot smarter and developed mentally than I was when I was 13 or so.

 

 

I do think it can make a big difference when someone is exposed. It seems that many addicts start using at a very young age.

[laughing lioness]

_{Is it more insulting than posting unscientific and judgmental comments about an issue that has cost people their children, parents, siblings and dear friends? Do you not see the hurt these sorts of words can have on those whose loved ones have suffered and possibly died from addiction?}

 

_{So many people self medicate with substances and become ill with this devastating disease. Unless you know why they are self medicating or dulling the pain in the first place, you have no basis for evaluating that decision.}

 

_{Clearly you didn't read my previous posts. I was the one who introduced self-medication, point of fact. Joanne is claiming a value statemnt as a fact. My pointing that out does not make me any less compassionate.}

[I.Dup.]

 

 

Apparently, some people have no character flaws. It appears such people have no compassion either.

 

I thought we WEREN'T supposed to use personal attacks in our arguments, and there's already been a couple of those on this thread. Can we all be adults and talk things through without resorting to personal attacks? Pretty please?

[bettyandbob]

 

I thought we WEREN'T supposed to use personal attacks in our arguments, and there's already been a couple of those on this thread. Can we all be adults and talk things through without resorting to personal attacks? Pretty please?

 

 

The post I responded to suggested that every poor choice was a character flaw. I've made lots of poor choices in my life. I'm glad there are forgiving compassionate people in my life. I'm glad most people I deal with are not as judgemental as the tone of some of the posts in this thread.

 

The original question was whether being homeschooled was protection from addiction. I don't believe so. I've known homeschooled as well as public/private/christian schooled kids who made bad choices and got into trouble.

[garddwr]

There was a study done in Korea which tested kids who had gaming addictions for certain genetic markers that related to a dopamine processing deficit. I used to have a copy of the entire paper, which was published in the Journal of Addiction Medicine, but I can't find it. Here is a link to the abstract: http://www.ncbi.nlm....pubmed/21768948

 

The study found that "The Taq1A1 and COMT alleles were significantly more prevalent in the [excessive gaming] group relative to the comparison group." The article noted that this same gene, and the correlated dopamine processing deficit, has been associated with other forms of addiction, including drugs, alcohol, nicotine, and gambling.

 

Jackie

 

 

Drinking alcohol vs. abstaining is a choice.

 

Taking drugs vs. abstaining is a choice.

 

Having s*x vs. abstaining is typically a choice (and when it is not, that's a criminal matter).

 

We all make choices in life, and if we make poor choices that reflects on our character. Alcoholism or drug abuse doesn't just strike down some poor innocent soul who has never done anything wrong like illness can. It is the consequence of poor decisions made by that individual just like when a smoker gets lung cancer. They are suffering because of their own chosen behavior.

 

 

Pondering both these quotes. I imagine some day we will have a much clearer understanding of the interactions between genes, environment, behavior, and disease. I suspect we will find that a great many emotional and behavioral "vices" have their root in genetic tendencies, with their expression dependent in large part on environmental and behavioral triggers. And in that we will find they are not in fact different from a great many illnesses that manifest in more obviously physical ways.

 

My dad had a heart attack in his early fifties. He was in good shape, ran marathons, ate better-than-average nutritionally, didn't smoke or drink--but he had a heart attack. My grandfather had a heart attack in his forties--he was a very active farmer who ate mostly produce from his own farm. My great-grandmother (grandpa's mother) died of a heart attack in her fifties. Obviously there is a strong genetic predisposition towards heart disease in my family. If I go through life eating a normal, fairly nutritious diet, exercising, etc., but develop heart disease, am I a poor innocent sufferer? What if I eat at McDonald's every day and develop heart disease? What if I follow the Dean Ornish heart disease reversal diet for the rest of my life and don't develop heart disease (the diet is difficult, but my dad was able to get his health back by following it religiously)? If I take the McDonald's every day route I imagine someone could reasonably point a finger at me for bringing the disease on myself--but then what about my husband's grandfather who ate at McDonald's every day from the time he was widowed in his sixties until age 95, and died peacefully of old age two months short of his 100th birthday? Would he be considered morally superior to me because he didn't get sick and I did?

 

Is the person who drinks socially but doesn't develop alcoholism morally superior to the one who does? If I have a genetic tendency towards addiction but was fortunate enough to be brought up in a family/religion that taught me to abstain and so never triggered that tendency, am I morally superior to the kid who grew up without such safeguards and ended up with a life ruined by substance abuse?

 

It's complicated, isn't it?

[LucyStoner]

 

_{Clearly you didn't read my previous posts. I was the one who introduced self-medication, point of fact. Joanne is claiming a value statemnt as a fact. My pointing that out does not make me any less compassionate.}

 

 

Stating a contrary opinion is an insult towards a belief set? So if I say that humans have landed on the moon, is that an insult to groups who believe it did not happen?

 

I was responding to the whole character flaw thing from a post in response to mine and can't claim to have read all of your posts. I am sorry that I apparently misunderstood the context of your post and misunderstood/was ignorant of your take on the original topic and using pronouns in the royal we sense.

[Corraleno]

They CHOSE to consume drugs or alcohol. You cannot get addicted if you never start drinking or taking drugs.

 

 

Prescription drugs, alcohol, junk food, cigarettes, and videogames are not illegal in this country. In fact, they are BIG business — heavily advertised and (until very recently in the case of cigarettes) strongly encouraged. Most people who get addicted have no idea when they first try something that they will become addicted. With the sole exception of illegal drugs, it's totally unreasonable to expect that all humans should avoid ever having a beer or glass of wine, playing a videogame, or eating junk food, just in case their body reacts to those things in an addictive way.

 

The study I linked upthread found a specific gene that was related to many different types of addiction. So even if a person with that particular dopamine processing deficit never drank a drop of alcohol, he or she could still become addicted to gaming or sugar or gambling or something else, because they have a specific allele that causes a neurotransmitter processing deficit. They did not "choose" to have that gene, and unless someone has been the subject of a study that specifically tests for it, they would have no way of knowing they even had it.

 

Jackie

[justamouse]

 

 

Apparently, some people have no character flaws. It appears such people have no compassion either.

 

 

Some people express themselves in very black and white ways. That is not wrong. Extrapolating that out to her having no compassion is something you have no proof of. You have no idea what she does in her private life. She is a practicing Christian, which means she is very much aware of her own character flaws.

 

Really, keep the personal attacks out of it.

[Halcyon]

Okay, so back on track. I love the book by Neufeld, and just lent it to a friend but will re read it when i get it back. Other books that might help me make sure, or TRY to make sure my kids dont go down that path? I do think keeping your children close is critical. CriticAl.

[Mergath]

Drinking alcohol vs. abstaining is a choice.

 

Taking drugs vs. abstaining is a choice.

 

Having s*x vs. abstaining is typically a choice (and when it is not, that's a criminal matter).

 

We all make choices in life, and if we make poor choices that reflects on our character. Alcoholism or drug abuse doesn't just strike down some poor innocent soul who has never done anything wrong like illness can. It is the consequence of poor decisions made by that individual just like when a smoker gets lung cancer. They are suffering because of their own chosen behavior.

 

 

Oh, sure. It's a choice. Unless someone is born hooked on drugs because their mother used while she was pregnant. Unless someone's parents give them alcohol as a toddler because they want the kid to sleep or they think it's funny. Or unless someone grows up in a culture where drug use is normal and expected, and there was never anyone around to tell them it's a terrible idea.

 

The world isn't a black and white place. Go ahead and think that if it makes you feel better, if it makes you feel like you can control things that way, but the world isn't like that.

[bettyandbob]

 

Some people express themselves in very black and white ways. That is not wrong. Extrapolating that out to her having no compassion is something you have no proof of. You have no idea what she does in her private life. She is a practicing Christian, which means she is very much aware of her own character flaws.

 

Really, keep the personal attacks out of it.

 

 

 

I am a practicing Christian too. I hate to admit it , but some of the most judgemental, noncompassionate people can be found in church and publicly holding themselves out as "practicing Christians". So, saying someone is a "practicing Christian" has very negative connotations for me. You are correct I don't not know anyone here IRL. I have only the tone of what they write to go by. I am responding to the tone, which was extremely judgemental, a person's proclaimed faith has nothing to do with it.

[Mergath]

Obesity may have a true medical cause or it may reflect poor lifestyle choices. I leave it up to God to judge whether the individual has treated his/her body as a temple or a garbage dump.

 

 

People may have a medical condition that predisposes them to obesity- kind of like how one can be predisposed to addiction- but it doesn't make you put the food in your mouth. You say that people on drugs can choose not to use; well, so can obese people, right?

[justamouse]

Prescription drugs, alcohol, junk food, cigarettes, and videogames are not illegal in this country. In fact, they are BIG business — heavily advertised and (until very recently in the case of cigarettes) strongly encouraged. Most people who get addicted have no idea when they first try something that they will become addicted. With the sole exception of illegal drugs, it's totally unreasonable to expect that all humans should avoid ever having a beer or glass of wine, playing a videogame, or eating junk food, just in case their body reacts to those things in an addictive way.

 

The study I linked upthread found a specific gene that was related to many different types of addiction. So even if a person with that particular dopamine processing deficit never drank a drop of alcohol, he or she could still become addicted to gaming or sugar or gambling or something else, because they have a specific allele that causes a neurotransmitter processing deficit. They did not "choose" to have that gene, and unless someone has been the subject of a study that specifically tests for it, they would have no way of knowing they even had it.

 

Jackie

 

 

While I don't doubt the study, what this essentially does is absolve everyone of their bad decisions, which is suspect because if developing new neural pathways can bring an former addict out of his addiction and into a place of healing...Which if you've been though a 12 step program, they're not letting you off the hook for bad genes. Sorry, no excuses. Which is why it works.

 

What if that neurotransmitter was made worse by chosen behaviors? We can alter brain chemistry with a thought, what if we have those genes, but we, ourselves turn them on?

 

We really know nothing. We have ideas, but we're still learning about the brain all the time.

[justamouse]

 

 

I am a practicing Christian too. I hate to admit it , but some of the most judgemental, noncompassionate people can be found in church and publicly holding themselves out as "practicing Christians". So, saying someone is a "practicing Christian" has very negative connotations for me. You are correct I don't not know anyone here IRL. I have only the tone of what they write to go by. I am responding to the tone, which was extremely judgemental, a person's proclaimed faith has nothing to do with it.

 

 

Well, them perhaps you can just comment that you thought that her tone was judgmental, and leave it at that. And we all have baggage. No one needs to be the dumping ground for our baggage.

[Corraleno]

Pondering both these quotes. I imagine some day we will have a much clearer understanding of the interactions between genes, environment, behavior, and disease. I suspect we will find that a great many emotional and behavioral "vices" have their root in genetic tendencies, with their expression dependent in large part on environmental and behavioral triggers. And in that we will find they are not in fact different from a great many illnesses that manifest in more obviously physical ways.

 

Exactly! People used to believe that kids with ADHD just "chose" not to sit still or focus, or that people with depression just "chose" to feel sorry for themselves. Thankfully, most people now understand the biochemical underpinnings of those issues, and no longer consider them "moral flaws." Yet, in spite of the research and medical evidence, some people still believe that addicts choose to be addicted.

 

Is the person who drinks socially but doesn't develop alcoholism morally superior to the one who does? If I have a genetic tendency towards addiction but was fortunate enough to be brought up in a family/religion that taught me to abstain and so never triggered that tendency, am I morally superior to the kid who grew up without such safeguards and ended up with a life ruined by substance abuse?

 

It's complicated, isn't it?

 

 

:iagree:

 

Jackie

[Catwoman]

As often happens when this topic is discussed, things are getting personal, and it seems to be focused on the way each of us defines the term, "character flaw." One person's idea of a "flaw" is another person's idea of "innocent experimentation" and another's idea of "something that will get you a window seat on the bus to H*ll," and many others feel that it's somewhere in between the two extremes.

 

I can see a lot of possibilities for hurt feelings on this thread, and I would bet that in many cases, we disagree with each other less than we think we do.

 

I hope we are able to move past the "character flaw" issue and back to what I think the OP wanted to discuss, which was whether or not homeschool teens tend to become addicted to drugs or alcohol.

 

I'm not trying to be the Forum Police here, but there are people I like a lot on both sides of this argument, and I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding going on -- and a lot more emotion than may be necessary, probably because people are thinking of their own personal (and familial) experiences with addiction, and that can dredge up some pretty strong emotions. I don't know if people are bringing in feelings from past threads, or if the animosity is truly just about this one issue, but I really hope this doesn't turn into one of those name-calling trainwrecks where the only result is hurt feelings on both sides.

 

I may be mistaken, but I don't think anyone here was saying that every single person who becomes addicted to a substance is necessarily a weak or terrible person, but I do think some people here are interpreting some of the comments that way.

[elegantlion]

Addiction is complicated as well because even if you get clean and stay clean, it can take just a few triggers to create a relapse. There is really no "cured" from addiction. It's a daily process of abstaining from temptation, unfortunately life doesn't always hand us those easy paths where abstaining as is as easy as it sounds.

 

Life is very grey indeed.

[Crimson Wife]

Oh boy here we go. So obese people go to hell? I am so confused. Alcohol addiction is a character flaw but food addiction is a religious one?

 

Abusing one's body is sinful, whether it's excessive consumption of alcohol or junk food.

 

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

 

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 10:31

 

We are all sinners and must accept responsibility for the mistakes we make, not going around looking for excuses for our own personal failings. It makes me angry when people try to deflect responsibility by claiming to be victims of "illness" when they are suffering the consequences of their own poor lifestyle decisions.

[Guest inoubliable]

 

Abusing one's body is sinful, whether it's excessive consumption of alcohol or junk food.

 

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

 

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 10:31

 

We are all sinners and must accept responsibility for the mistakes we make, not going around looking for excuses for our own personal failings. It makes me angry when people try to deflect responsibility by claiming to be victims of "illness" when they are suffering the consequences of their own poor lifestyle decisions.

 

Wow

[Corraleno]

While I don't doubt the study, what this essentially does is absolve everyone of their bad decisions, which is suspect because if developing new neural pathways can bring an former addict out of his addiction and into a place of healing...Which if you've been though a 12 step program, they're not letting you off the hook for bad genes. Sorry, no excuses. Which is why it works.

 

Of course it doesn't absolve people of all responsibility, but it does explain why some people are much more prone to addiction than others — and it's not because all addicts are just inherently morally inferior to nonaddicts. Yes addictions can be overcome, but I don't think that most people who haven't dealt with it, either personally or in a loved one, realize just how freaking hard it is. It's not as simple as just "choosing not to drink" — for many addicts, it's more like "choosing to feel like wish you were dead," and for quite a long time. It takes a huge amount of strength and willpower to go through that and not give up. And for people who don't have a really strong support system, and a reason to want to quit (for my uncle it was the birth of his son), it's far harder than anything most of us have ever had to do.

 

 

What if that neurotransmitter was made worse by chosen behaviors? We can alter brain chemistry with a thought, what if we have those genes, but we, ourselves turn them on?

 

I'm not sure what you mean — are you saying that you think people can change the genes they're born with, with a "thought"? :confused1:

 

Jackie

[Crimson Wife]

People may have a medical condition that predisposes them to obesity- kind of like how one can be predisposed to addiction- but it doesn't make you put the food in your mouth. You say that people on drugs can choose not to use; well, so can obese people, right?

 

 

Someone can make healthy diet and lifestyle choices but still suffer from obesity (just like people who have never smoked or been exposed to secondhand smoke can still wind up with lung cancer). There is nothing they could do differently to prevent their condition.

 

Someone who has never touched a drop of alcohol will never become an alcoholic. Someone who has never taken drugs will never become a drug addict. Willpower is 100% effective in preventing the condition.

[Lady Florida.]

 

Abusing one's body is sinful, whether it's excessive consumption of alcohol or junk food.

 

Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Corinthians 6:19-20

 

So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 1 Corinthians 10:31

 

We are all sinners and must accept responsibility for the mistakes we make, not going around looking for excuses for our own personal failings. It makes me angry when people try to deflect responsibility by claiming to be victims of "illness" when they are suffering the consequences of their own poor lifestyle decisions.

 

 

:eek:

[laughing lioness]

Stating a contrary opinion is an insult towards a belief set? So if I say that humans have landed on the moon, is that an insult to groups who believe it did not happen?

 

I was responding to the whole character flaw thing from a post in response to mine and can't claim to have read all of your posts. I am sorry that I apparently misunderstood the context of your post and misunderstood/was ignorant of your take on the original topic and using pronouns in the royal we sense.

 

 

Joanne made a declarative statement. There was no indication that she was stating an opinion.

If you had read my earlier posts you would have seen that I was talking about addiction as self medication, as you were, in response to my post, as if this was something I had never considered. I have been an addict. I struggle wtih addictive tendencies. I have lots of carpie pre-dispositions. I have family members that are addicts. My mother died from an addiction. I have lots of compassion for addiction. That doesn't assume that I buy into a certain belief system ABOUT addiction. .

In discussions like this I make a serious attempt to use non-personal pronouns because of the intensity of the topic. There's nothing "royal" about it.

 

Peace.

[Corraleno]

We are all sinners and must accept responsibility for the mistakes we make, not going around looking for excuses for our own personal failings. It makes me angry when people try to deflect responsibility by claiming to be victims of "illness" when they are suffering the consequences of their own poor lifestyle decisions.

 

 

And it makes me angry when neurochemical deficits are judged as moral failings.

 

I have a whole shoebox of DH's school reports, with comments from his teachers about him being lazy, sloppy, careless, not paying attention, not putting forth his best effort, etc. In fact, he was working about 10 times harder than the other kids, just to keep his head above water. He wasn't diagnosed with dyslexia until his late teens, and was only diagnosed with ADD as an adult. ADD is also associated with dopamine processing deficits and he was astonished at how differently he felt on Ritalin — he asked me if this is how "normal" people think and feel and see the world.

 

Did you know that, at one time, psychologists thought that autism was caused by cold, uncaring mothers? I have an autistic niece and nephew, and even just 20 years ago my SIL was subjected to some of that kind of judgment. Aren't you glad that, thanks to modern genetic, biochemical, and neurological research, autism is no longer blamed on the "poor choices" of mothers?

 

Jackie

[Lilaclady]

I don't know what area of goergia the OP's cousin is. But here just north of Atlanta, drug use and alcohol use is rampant among the teens. There has been numerous reports of parents buying their teens alcohol at their parties etc. it is really bad.

I have heard of homeschool kids smoking and the parents not being aware of it. Homeschooling or not does shelter kids from influences. Unfortunately, even vigilant attentive parents sometimes miss the clues so it is really hard. I just pray my kids don't fall prey to it. I can't chain them to myside 24/7.

[laughing lioness]

 

Did you know that, at one time, psychologists thought that autism was caused by cold, uncaring mothers? I have an autistic niece and nephew, and even just 20 years ago my SIL was subjected to some of that kind of judgment. Aren't you glad that, thanks to modern genetic, biochemical, and neurological research, autism is no longer blamed on the "poor choices" of mothers?

 

Jackie

 

 

The whole field of Marriage and Family therapy was started because of a wrong hypothesis (now disproven) about schizophrenia. That is how science and the field of mental health develops. 20 years ago we didn't have the information that we have now, which includes a host of information about both nature and nurture.

[Corraleno]

Someone who has never touched a drop of alcohol will never become an alcoholic. Someone who has never taken drugs will never become a drug addict. Willpower is 100% effective in preventing the condition.

 

Do you really believe that no human being on earth should ever touch alcohol? Or take pain killers prescribed by their doctor? Seriously??? :confused1:

 

Jackie

[LucyStoner]

I am a huge believer in personal responsibility but that isn't mutually exclusive of seeing the nuances and tragedies that often lead to addiction and understanding how perfectly decent people get into addiction.

 

I can list a long number of examples from my years of working with homeless and low income people, including children, where it would be disgusting to say that having a flawed character led to their addiction. But it would be a he!! of a long book.

[Joanne]

Pondering both these quotes. I imagine some day we will have a much clearer understanding of the interactions between genes, environment, behavior, and disease. I suspect we will find that a great many emotional and behavioral "vices" have their root in genetic tendencies, with their expression dependent in large part on environmental and behavioral triggers. And in that we will find they are not in fact different from a great many illnesses that manifest in more obviously physical ways.

 

 

 

We already have the bold.

 

Researched, evidenced based, hard core science.

[Joanne]

 

Someone who has never touched a drop of alcohol will never become an alcoholic. Someone who has never taken drugs will never become a drug addict. Willpower is 100% effective in preventing the condition.

 

 

This is absolutely accurate.

 

It doesn't change the fact that addiction is a disease.

[LibraryLover]

Do you really believe that no human being on earth should ever touch alcohol? Or take pain killers prescribed by their doctor? Seriously??? :confused1:

 

Jackie

 

 

I am really trying to imagine certain surgeries sans some sort of (even temporary) strong pain relief. Yikes.

 

And I am **trying** not to think of the story Lot's daughters getting their father plastered. (Where was DSS then?)

[Joanne]

That really depends on your world view and faith. Stating this as fact, without defining content, is insulting to those who don't share your values.

 

INSULTING?

 

No, it's not insulting to state that trying alcohol or other drugs is not a character flaw.

 

It would be insulting to denigrate a faith tradition that is against all alcohol or other drugs. It would be insulting to discuss the relative intelligence of being against alcohol or other drugs.

 

It would be insulting to say a lot of things in this context.

 

But, no, it's not insulting to assert that it is not a character defect to try alcohol or other drugs. It might, however, be insulting to assert that the disease of addiction is due to a character flaw.

[Joanne]

I am really trying to imagine certain surgeries sans some sort of (even temporary) strong pain relief. Yikes.

 

I was nearly 4 years clean and sober when I gave birth to my oldest. I was doing everything necessary to stay sober, and at that time, embraced a traditional, Christian faith.

 

The anethesiologist was not on site, and they gave me something narcotic to take the edge off. I could FEEL my body reacting to it, and my thoughts immediately went to "give me more of that."

 

It was a *chemical* reaction, a *physiological* reality that my body reacts with a need for more than a moderate or infrequent user does not have.

 

It wasn't a moral flaw, a character flaw, relapse thinking/behavior or anything else. It was pure chemical reaction in the diseased body of an addict.

[LibraryLover]

I was over 4 years clean and sober when I gave birth to my oldest. I was doing everything necessary to stay sober, and at that time, embraced a traditional, Christian faith.

 

The anethesiologist was not on site, and they gave me something narcotic to take the edge off. I could FEEL my body reacting to it, and my thoughts immediately went to "give me more of that."

 

It was a *chemical* reaction, a *physiological* reality that my body reacts with a need for more than a moderate or infrequent user does not have.

 

It wasn't a moral flaw, a character flaw, relapse thinking/behavior or anything else. It was pure chemical reaction in the diseased body of an addict.

 

 

I am sorry. That is not fair.

 

And since alcohol is a biblical standard, I am not sure why folks are so secure on their high horses.

[Lisbeth]

I have addiction in my family, so I worry about this too. From what I have seen, in addition to the genetics, alot of it has to do with association. If parents are guarding the association (mind you, not just sheltering, but also providing the right kinds of association) I think that's a huge factor.

 

They say the genetics is also usually "triggered" by certain other factors (family environment, peer group, etc). I may not be able to do anything about the genetics, but I can do the best I can to keep anything from being triggered.

 

I agree. I will never be the "well, my child is now a teen, I can't tell them who to be friends with at that age" parent.

 

Who they are surrounded by really matters. What music they listen to matters. What movies they watch matters. How they present themselves matters.

[Lisbeth]

 

Do you really believe that no human being on earth should ever touch alcohol? Or take pain killers prescribed by their doctor? Seriously??? :confused1:

 

Jackie

 

Interesting. I'm not part of this original conversation, but, in my faith tradition, absolutely, yes, we believe no one should drink alcohol. We also believe no one should use drugs as recreation. Pain killers from the doc is another thing, at a person's discretion. (I am LDS. We believe you need your full faculties to make good choices over the long haul. This means not clouding it with things like alcohol (or for that matter, debt, but that's a whole other topic). Pain meds as a temporary thing would be one of those exceptions.)

[JumpyTheFrog]

I'm not trying to be the Forum Police here, but there are people I like a lot on both sides of this argument, and I'm seeing a lot of misunderstanding going on -- and a lot more emotion than may be necessary, probably because people are thinking of their own personal (and familial) experiences with addiction, and that can dredge up some pretty strong emotions.

 

I think Catwoman is correct. Many people posting in this thread probably have family baggage related to addiction.

 

I'd like to point out something. Perhaps the reason some of you so strongly disagree is based on what types of people you've known have been addicts. For example, one of my uncles is an alcoholic. He's in his 50s and is still trying to live the high school/college party boy lifestyle. He makes terrible choices, especially financially, because life is all about partying and having fun to him. (He also makes almost zero effort to control his diabetes. He takes insulin and checks his glucose only once per day, despite it being in the 400s several times.) If a poster only knows a few alcoholics and they are like him, then yes, the addiction will probably seem like it's the result of a character flaw.

 

If, on the other hand, a poster knows several addicts and they all sort of "stumbled into it" while trying to self-medicate after some horrible life event, then that poster will probably be more likely to see it as unlucky genetics and not a character defect.

 

In high school, one of my friends from when I was younger was put on Prozac. At the time, my thought was, "Of course you think you're depressed. Your grades are slipping because of your drug use and poor choice of friends." I thought the depression was the result of a messed up life from the drug use. Now I wonder if the depression led him to attempt to self-medicate with drugs. Perhaps I had the order wrong. (I'll likely never know.)

[garddwr]

You know the PKU test done on newborns? If a baby tests positive, they are put on a special diet that prevents them from developing a terribly destructive disease. Maybe someday we will have genetic tests on newborns that can tell us specifically what diseases, including addictions and mental illnesses, the child is prone to developing. Better yet, we will know what needs to be done in terms of diet, possible gene therapy, medication, supplementation, etc. to prevent those diseases from developing.

 

From a personal religious perspective, there is a verse in the Book of Mormon that says: "I [God] give unto men weakness that they may be humble"--my understanding has always been that this life is meant to be challenging, every one of us faces weaknesses and trials because that is how life is meant to be. God is a perfect judge because he knows exactly what our weaknesses are and what challenges and burdens we are carrying. In the end, His grace is sufficient and will make up for whatever portion of our failures in life were due to elements beyond our control. That is not saying that personal accountability is irrelevant, only that we cannot judge to what degree someone is accountable or not for particular choices/circumstances/events/failures.

[LibraryLover]

I don't have any family baggage wrt to alcohol or addiction.

 

 

'And the elder said to the younger Our father is old, and there is no man left on the earth, to come in unto us after the manner of the whole earth. Come, let us make him drunk with wine, and let us lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.'

 

I mean, is that conversation alone icky? Since Lot was totally drunk he didn't realize he was having sex with his kids? Right?

 

Without alcohol, would we even exist? That is one tough god.

[garddwr]

 

Without alcohol, would we even exist? That is one tough god.

 

 

Scratching my head...what in the world does the story of Lot's daughters have to do with this discussion? Or with God? The Bible tells the stories of many people and their actions, both good and bad. There is no indication that God either commanded or condoned what these particular people did. And what does it have to do with us existing? There were plenty of other people around and having children in the days of Abraham and Lot... :huh:

 

Just seems like a weird thing to insert into this particular discussion.

[LucyStoner]

If, on the other hand, a poster knows several addicts and they all sort of "stumbled into it" while trying to self-medicate after some horrible life event, then that poster will probably be more likely to see it as unlucky genetics and not a character defect.

 

 

 

 

I don't know several substance addicts. Personally, a couple dozen (mostly not related to me). Through working at non-profits with homeless people and families in poverty? Hundreds. I have also read extensively on this topic as well as taking classes and attending lectures, including one with Gabor Mate who we hosted at my (then) work. I presently sit on a board which is creating an organization for education opportunities mostly (though not exclusively) for those coming out of addiction. Someone can have a personal connection without only having their conclusions and opinions informed by personal experiences. What some call "baggage", other people call a catalyst to work for positive change after personal healing. I am skeptical that "character defects" is a valid way to describe most of the bad decisions that people make. To say nothing of the fact that addictions can not be traced to a single bad decision made without any influences or traced to any decision at all.

[mommymilkies]

Of course some people with character flaws become addicts. Some don't. Some just insult groups of people with genetic dispositions. I don't know a single person who goes to the bar and says, "Why heck, I'm genetically predisposed, I might as well take that excuse and drink myself to death!" Nonsense. Insulting nonsense.

 

I tell you what, I consider myself fairly immune to addiction. But when I had my ear surgery two years ago, they put me on some hardcore painkillers. I hate even taking Tylenol and asked for something lighter, but they told me no flat out. I didn't want painkillers that were sddicitive-I was breastfeeding and knew the risks from being a former med/surg assistant. Turns out what they gave me was an opioid with highly addictive tendencies. They popped it in my mouth when i could barely open my eyes post-surgery. I never even had a choice even though i told them no flat out before surgery. I hated it but man my body NEEDED IT when it ran low. The pain was so bad I would dry heave and then be in worse pain from the pressure. I knew what my body was doing and luckily my husband (a chemist) did, too. He cut my pills down to wean me off and it was nasty business. I never even got my last refill and I'm still grateful I got out of it as easily as I did. I will never, ever take one again. It had nothing to do with the school I went to or the crappy childhood I had. It was purely chemical.

[LibraryLover]

Scratching my head...what in the world does the story of Lot's daughters have to do with this discussion? Or with God? The Bible tells the stories of many people and their actions, both good and bad. There is no indication that God either commanded or condoned what these particular people did. And what does it have to do with us existing? There were plenty of other people around and having children in the days of Abraham and Lot... :huh:

 

Just seems like a weird thing to insert into this particular discussion.

 

 

 

What? Why? Without Lot's daughters getting dad drunk to the point he put 'his seed in the them', the passage says there would be no life. Call it rape, call it incest, call it a message from gd. No matter, it took a lot of alcohol.

 

Are you arguing with the bible?

 

If so, come on and join us in a certain social thread.

[garddwr]

 

 

Why?

 

 

Just seems random and irrelevant to me. Would you like to explain how it relates?

[LibraryLover]

Just seems random and irrelevant to me. Would you like to explain how it relates?

 

 

 

See above. It's not at all random. Religious people in this thread are forgetting all the biblical vino. Even Jesus made & passed the fermented grape.

[garddwr]

 

 

See above. It's not at all random. Religious people in this thread are forgetting all the biblical vino. Even Jesus made & passed wine.

 

 

 

Your point is just that the use of wine occurs in the Bible then? I'm not trying to argue with you or anything, I just couldn't make heads or tails of your post. You used an obscure story without particular doctrinal content and seemed to be interpreting it strangely (we wouldn't be here if not for Lot's inebriation???)

 

Thanks for clarifying.