Advice on how to deal with a dc who behaves inappropriately.

[5LittleMonkeys]

There is a child that I teach that I am having a hard time dealing with. I don't know how to describe what it is that I find inappropriate so I will just give examples.

 

During art when I'm trying to discuss a particular artist this child, while looking through a book of his art, makes the comment, "I don't agree with this picture. It's dumb." Another time when we were comparing a painting of Jesus on the cross by one artist to a different artist..."I highly doubt that Jesus had abs." and "I think he would have been more covered in blood." Another time when we were doing sculptures to depict movement he sculpted vomit. When I told him to pick a different topic he sculpted a dead bird.

 

In writing we are working on re-writing fables. While I give them licence to change minor details I ask that they keep the story line the same and to not deviate too far from characters and events since everyone in class participates in re-writing the fable on the whiteboard. I asked him to give me a sentence based on the key words. The original sentence was "When the boy peered into the pot he saw it was half filled with honeyed dates." His response was, "When Bob looked into the pot he saw a deadly viper that jumped out and bit him in the face and then he died." Other sentences he has come up with... The boat smashed to pieces and then the man drowned in a painful death. The swan realized that it was all a dream and woke up thinking that the whole story was stupid. .... His sentences are all similar; very negative and don't follow the story line.

 

When he tries to make small talk with my co- teacher or I it's always as if he is trying to go for the shock factor. Making comments about how this or that passage in the Bible is stupid, about how he watched a tv show and it had tons of killing in it. He is a huge fan of wrestling, of which I know absolutely nothing so am not sure of what he is talking about, but it's all pretty violent.

 

I've talked to him on numerous occasions about his comments. I've tried to explain that if his comments are negative or violent that he needs to keep them to himself. I've tried to explain that not everyone appreciates vomit and dead birds, and that he needs to consider how many of his comments might be offensive to others. He says that he understands what I'm saying and always apologizes and says he will try better to correct his behavior, but nothing changes. It's the same every single time. It's to the point that I cringe every time he opens his mouth because there are younger dc in the class and other dc who find him annoying already and I hate for him continue to confirm their dislike of him. I never know what is going to come out of his mouth or spring forth from his active imagination.

 

I'm not sure what home life is like, whether he is schooled traditionally, eclectically, or not at all. He is very fidgety, has to be re-directed often, CAN NOT follow directions the first time they are given, nor the second time, nor the third. I think he is very, very smart; possibly 2XE. I don't want to get his mom involved yet...I'd rather try to get through to him, but I'm not sure how to explain my expectations clearly. What I call inappropriate, callous, rude behavior and comments seems to be the norm for him. Any insight at all?

[Halcyon]

I'm sorry. I know I shouldn't laugh, but this post made me laugh.

 

"I highly doubt that Jesus had abs." :lol:

 

 

I know you are looking for help, and trust me, I have a difficult kid in my coop class ("This is stooopid." etc) but I guess I just was looking for something to smile at tonight. The "stupid" comments would, however, REALLY bother me. For some reason, it's my pet peeve.

[Katydid]

Well, vomit certainly does show movement. LOL I think as long as he is actually answering your questions and doing the assignments, I wouldn't try to censor his content unless it was truly profane. The comments he made about the art and such are at least honest opinions and observations, even if they are negative and not what you want to hear.

 

Maybe ask him to explain more? Ask him questions like why does he think Jesus wouldn't have abs? He was a carpenter, after all. Try to engage him where he's at instead of expecting the answers you want to hear. :)

[klmama]

He sounds a lot like several 9-10 yo boys I used to teach. Smart, creative, impulsive, and with inappropriate topics of conversation. They all ended up being diagnosed with ADHD, and they were all moderately to highly gifted. Great kids, every one, but they were a handful at that age.

 

Frankly, I do think you need to bring this to the mother's attention, not in a "why won't your ds behave" type of way, but in a "I'm concerned about ___" way. It's quite possible she has no idea he behaves this way elsewhere and thinks he only does it at home. Or, perhaps he doesn't do it at home at all. Many kids do behave very differently around other children than they do around their parents. It may be worth finding out if she has any suggestions for how to redirect him or to help him remember what he should do.

 

ETA: My concern is less with the comments he comes up with - that really is a boy thing - and more with his inability to follow directions the first or second time and with the way he annoys his peers.

[Paige]

I think it sounds like normal boy behavior. How old is he? If he's over 14, then it might be cause for concern. But, my DS is only 11. I'm hoping he'll outgrow it by then. I'm finding that boys his age (him and his friends) are trying to figure out how to be cool and smart, how to be creative, all the little boy potty talk is still funny but they have to ramp it up with a little more darker themes (dying, blood, etc.). I would not react. I would not let him see he is bothering you. Just redirect, uh huh...that's nice... and change the subject. Some boys are really good at playing the please the teacher game. Other boys want to please, but haven't figured out how to play the game yet. I know my DS wrote some terribly inappropriate spelling work sentences because he thought he was being cool and funny. He thought he was hilarious! He had no idea it was inappropriate until I pointed it out. Still, boys that age (I'm guessing 8-13) are fragile.. So, so very fragile. I would hesitate to tell another person's child that he was being inappropriate in that way. I would hesitate to even tell the mother and make a big deal out of it. I think I would just encourage parents to look at their children's work and then the parents can see for themselves what he is writing. Also annoying and inappropriate are not the same thing. Most of what you described is just annoying boy behavior and not truly inappropriate, IMO.

[misidawnrn]

If I was that boys mother, I would want to be involved. I realize that not all parents will side with the teacher, but I would at least want to be aware of it. One of my biggest fear is my children being naughty at someone else's house.

[weederberries]

My own son behaves in similar ways. It's SOOOO frustrating. When he's made crass comments about God, I put on my sternest face and tone and tell him that I will not allow him to dishonor the Lord in any way and it usually humbles him for a short time. I'm not sure the abs comment would have set me off, but perhaps a reminder about tone when discussing such matters.

 

I'd like to say that I have a perfect solution for you, but I agree that the annoying tween/preteen boy stage is somewhat normal and will continue while they have an audience. In my case, he's got a little brother to giggle and in a few years, mimic him.

 

As Paige suggested, meeting him where he is, acknowledge the creativity of his remarks and redirect. Clever, Matthew, vomit is definitely in motion. I'm not sure many people will appreciate the theme; lets find a more cheerful subject.

[Incognito]

When some boys in a children's program I volunteer for do things like that, it is usually an attempt to gain status among peers and/or shock the adults. Generally, I find that treating them as if they have misunderstood the discussion/issue, but giving it very little attention, seems to help. It is a matter of pride to not appear to not understand (if that makes any sense - I am sure there is a better way to explain that, but I must need to head to bed soon!).

 

Some of the examples you give really aren't a big deal and while annoying, aren't disruptive. Some are a bit disruptive. I think that banning certain words and expecting them to rephrase their opinion with more appropriate words (like no using the word "stupid", but you feed him a more appropriate way to say he doesn't enjoy something) could be helpful. Since he sounds like he is apologetic and trying to behave in general, gentle correction or clear rules like that might help.

[stripe]

SWB has an anecdote about her own son's response to prompts in that vintage LA book by Mary Hyde (English for the Thoughtful Child) that were about grisly ends to the sweet little bunny rabbit, doesn't she?

 

Personally I found some of the comments hilarious, but I am a bit of a sarcastic commentator. I suspect some of it is for the shock factor, so stop being shocked. Maybe he needs to be directed towards horror / mystery. Edward Allen Poe and Patricia Cornwall have authored books about grisly things, and there are perfectly legitimate careers dealing with death or danger (from member of the military to firefighting to criminalist to undertaker to medical examiner to homicide detective), and most such people are known for their dark humor. It doesn't make them creepy, necessarily.

[Forgiven]

I actually think his comments are pretty interesting. My kids and I were watching The Bible on The History Channel on Sunday night and John the Baptist--or was it Jesus?--had a 6-pack. Oh, no, it was Daniel. Right. Daniel. He had a six-pack and my daughter--I would expect it from my boys--made a comment about how could he have had a six-pack and it wasn't realistic (DD is 10, btw). I looked at her and said, "People in those times didn't have junk food to eat, and they also did a lot of manual labor. I don't doubt for a second that he could've had a six-pack."

 

My boys make odd observations during our history and science. I had been embarrassed by some of their sayings until we spent some time with other boys their age and I realized that they're normal. I think the difference with a homeschooled boy and a PSed boy is that the homeschooled boy is free to express himself throughout the day and is not afraid of being told he's wrong in his opinions, or that he "can't" say certain things. Whereas a PSed boy will be reprimanded. Imagine bringing up killing and death in a PS in today's day and age. I mentioned to my DH the other day that if my DS, who is in K this year, had drawn a picture of his in PS, we would've been called into counseling. It was a picture of Steve from Minecraft with a sword and a dead sheep, with the word, "kill," written on the page. He couldn't figure out how to write the other words he wanted to write, so only "kill" made it on the page. *shrug* Steve did kill the sheep. In PS, I'm sure it would've been a big deal. In our house, it was cute. LOL

 

For some odd reason, boys are infatuated with potty words and death. I'm hoping my boys grow out of it soon, and from what I hear from moms with older boys, they will grow out of it some day. Everyone tells me it's "normal"

 

In your situation, I'd do what a PPer has said. Let him be creative in his own way. If he wants to sculpt vomit--let him. It's his work that he has to show his parents. Maybe he thinks he's being funny or cool, but maybe it's just his creative genius trying to break out. ;)

[Alice]

My 9 yr old and his friends have similar kinds of conversations, so I wouldn’t be worried about the comments. I think they are fairly normal for some boys that age.

 

I’d focus on two things

*He is obviously trying to shock you, probably to get attention. I’d try and take away that shock value and the attention he is getting for it. I like the idea of making him engage on his comments “Hmm...why wouldn’t Jesus have abs like that?†Make him think and not just be the class clown/bad boy. If he writes a sentence that is shocking to you comment on the assignment instead of the idea. So “Interesting, but you didn’t really do the assigment as asked, did you? You left out the words....†Or “Good job summarizing the story.â€

 

*I wouldn’t allow rude comments. By that I would mean saying that something is stupid or dumb. It’s rude to the teacher, regardless of if he’s talking about the Bible or not. I’d be firm in saying “you can not say something is stupid.†With my own son I’ve told him that just calling something stupid just makes him look stupid, he needs to be able to criticize it in an intelligent way. I’m not sure I’d say that to someone else’s child in a class setting though. :) But if he says “this artist is dumb.†I’d say “What do you mean by dumb?†Try and engage in a conversation with him. And try to model the difference between saying “This is dumb†and “I don’t like this painting because I think it’s too simple. Or I don’t like the subject.†That’s hard for a 9 year old, but something that can be taught.

 

And if he continues to make comments that things you are doing are stupid or dumb I’d talk to a parent. That kind of behavior would be reason to not have him leave the class, especially if it’s disrupting the other students.

[Greta Lea]

Honestly, he doesn't sound like a huge problem to me. You just don't like his comments. He is showing an interest. He is obviously extremely creative. You just don't like the content of his comments.

 

So long as he isn't being totally disruptive I'd just let it go. If you think he is trying to just go for the shock and awe factor, then try a little reverse psychology. Act like you are totally excited about his idea. "WOW yeah I wonder if Jesus had abs!"

 

 

I totally agree. This sounds like something my boys would have said in a classwhen they were younger. Now that they are teens, they would for sure make the comment about Jesus and the abs (in fact, I would too!) in class, but not the vomit pix, but probably would still not choose a typical pix to draw. They are both creative and extremely out of the box kids.

 

Now, as the mom I would want to know the teachers concerns. Mom can help her son to know what is "socially acceptable" to say in class, especially with younger kids. Also, he can learn that some of his teachers in life are a little more sensitive than others and that it's polite for him to be sensitive to that. I've had these conversations with my sons many times.

 

[5LittleMonkeys]

Thank you for all the replies. They've given me an insight I hadn't had before. I only have one boy and he is only 6 and while he enjoys a good picture of Steve killing sheep just as much as the next boy, he never makes comments about killing things, dead things, dying, poop, pee, guts, or puke in public or in a class room situation. I'm hyper sensitive to my kids offending or annoying other people so I've tried to be clear in explaining the difference between comments that are okay at home but need to be kept in reserve when out and about around others. I don't tell him he has to be silent...there are just certain topics he knows not to bring up outside the house. But...I guess that's just me.

 

The other boys in the class, and those I've taught in the past don't act like this particular one to this degree so I just didn't have anything to gauge it against I suppose.

 

I will try to be more understanding and about his outspoken behavior, his style of creativity, and his comments. There are certain things I won't tolerate like talking over the top of me, distracting other children when they are supposed to be paying attention, getting up and leaving the classroom without asking, and using inappropriate language (he uses crap, freakin', dangit...while these are mild and not considered by most to by cussing I have several younger students to consider). There are also certain times that he just needs to be quite...I simply can not engage him in discussion of his comments every time...I would get NO teaching done.

 

I will admit that he is exhausting. I have the utmost respect for anyone that deals with a child like this every single day.

[Mom2TheTeam]

Thank you for all the replies. They've given me an insight I hadn't had before. I only have one boy and he is only 6 and while he enjoys a good picture of Steve killing sheep just as much as the next boy, he never makes comments about killing things, dead things, dying, poop, pee, guts, or puke in public or in a class room situation. I'm hyper sensitive to my kids offending or annoying other people so I've tried to be clear in explaining the difference between comments that are okay at home but need to be kept in reserve when out and about around others. I don't tell him he has to be silent...there are just certain topics he knows not to bring up outside the house. But...I guess that's just me.

 

The other boys in the class, and those I've taught in the past don't act like this particular one to this degree so I just didn't have anything to gauge it against I suppose.

 

I will try to be more understanding and about his outspoken behavior, his style of creativity, and his comments. There are certain things I won't tolerate like talking over the top of me, distracting other children when they are supposed to be paying attention, getting up and leaving the classroom without asking, and using inappropriate language (he uses crap, freakin', dangit...while these are mild and not considered by most to by cussing I have several younger students to consider). There are also certain times that he just needs to be quite...I simply can not engage him in discussion of his comments every time...I would get NO teaching done.

 

I will admit that he is exhausting. I have the utmost respect for anyone that deals with a child like this every single day.

 

 

I am the same way. However, I have 5 boys. ;) My oldest is only 7 still. So, my experience is limited. But, already my 7 year old would never discuss those things in public (or joke like that at home either). In fact, he would tell me about it and how inappropriate it is (and would correct his siblings about it too...oldest and all. :D) However, reading your post, I was sharing your post with my husband because it was like looking into the future with my 5 year old. He likes to talk about blood and guts and the like and is often negative. I really dislike it! I find it embarrassing too. And...he knows it, but he does it anyway. I don't "let" him do it ad I correct him when he does. It is just him. I also have twin boys who are 2 and a 5 month old. I hope they follow my 7 year olds lead. LOL!

 

Anyway, you've gotten some good advice. Don't allow the disruptions, but ignore the other. Hang in there...he won't be in your class forever and at least you don't have to take him home. ;)

[talk2ham.1]

A few things pop out at me based on what you have said. You said he seems to be doing it for the shock factor. Can we say, looking for attention through negativity? Also, the obsession with the grotesque and violent. That may be simple boyish love of gross and gore due to over exposure to violent TV and video games, or it can be a window into a mind that has been violated by the violence of others and this is how he tries to work it out. It can sometimes be an angry cry for help. It might be nothing and normal. I can't say based on just the little that you have mentioned. Have you considered recommending a professional psychologist to evaluate the artwork and look for signs that could help make a fair diagnosis? I haven't read what everyone else is saying, but I was a jr. high teacher for a time. This sort of activity and expression is not common since it continues even after it has been addressed and may be a sign of problems that run deep. I had one student that used art and writing to express herself similarly. I became concerned and pursued it by recommending professional evaluation. She was found to be very depressed and in 7th grade had already contemplated suicide on multiple occasions. I want to say it's nothing and don't worry about it, but I'm not equipped to make that call. If you are concerned, please consider the child with compassion and consider asking for professional advice for his sake.

[Another Lynn]

I'm surprised at the number of replies defending his behavior. There is no reason why children can not learn a little self-control. I would not tolerate this in my own dc. I'm actually surprised at the number of people who think his behavior is normal for any gender, any age.

 

Sorry, I cannot offer advice about how to deal with this is a classroom situation, but I see no problem with setting a higher standard and expecting it to be met.

[Wheres Toto]

 

I will admit that he is exhausting. I have the utmost respect for anyone that deals with a child like this every single day.

 

My son is like this and it's the reason why he doesn't do any classes except Sunday School and ones I run (4-H). I'm hoping constant correction and age will eventually improve things.

 

My son isn't crazy into the blood and guts but he did write a story involving a tornado that killed everyone that refused to listen to the warnings of the main character....

[Mom2TheTeam]

I'm surprised at the number of replies defending his behavior. There is no reason why children can not learn a little self-control. I would not tolerate this in my own dc. I'm actually surprised at the number of people who think his behavior is normal for any gender, any age.

 

Sorry, I cannot offer advice about how to deal with this is a classroom situation, but I see no problem with setting a higher standard and expecting it to be met.

 

I hope it didn't sound like I was defending it. I'm not. I don't think it's okay, but I do have a child like this. As I said in my post, we correct him when he does it. Sometimes, we just tell him we don't talk like that, but sometimes if what he says warrants it or it continues after being told to stop, he gets sent to his room or whatever is appropriate for the setting and offense. We are definitely trying to teach him this is inappropriate, but he still does it from time to time. He has also been told that if we can't trust him to behave appropriately, he will not be allowed to attend things outside of our house. So far, we've never had a big on-going issue anywhere other than home. I am hoping to nip this quickly, but he's always had a negative attitude. I do expect him to learn self-control though and he is working on it.

 

Maybe my post came off too flippant about it since I found myself giggling at the boy. We do take it seriously and I'm definitely not okay with this type of behavior. But, I don't necessarily think it is uncommon in boys either. If my son was causing issues (especially the disrupting) in class, I'd definitely want to know.

 

My son is like this and it's the reason why he doesn't do any classes except Sunday School and ones I run (4-H). I'm hoping constant correction and age will eventually improve things.

 

My son isn't crazy into the blood and guts but he did write a story involving a tornado that killed everyone that refused to listen to the warnings of the main character....

 

We have told my son the exact same thing. He's only 5 still (and a young 5 too). But, he knows that if we have an issue outside the house, he won't be allowed to attend things anymore. We had an issue at AWANA a couple months ago. He was told in very clearly that if it ever happened again, he would be dropping AWANA. (By us, not the leaders. ;))

[carriewillard]

Lol Jesus certainly did have abs. He was a carpenter, led an active lifestyle, walking everywhere... Teehee.

 

I HATE when artists depict Jesus as some emaciated greasy wimp paleface. He was Jewish and likely had dark coloring and a tan too.

[5LittleMonkeys]

Lol Jesus certainly did have abs. He was a carpenter, led an active lifestyle, walking everywhere... Teehee.

 

 

I did tell him at the time that he was very likely to have lots of well defined muscles. His reply was that he thought I was wrong and then that's when he added that the artist should have depicted him with more blood on him. :glare:

[5LittleMonkeys]

I'm surprised at the number of replies defending his behavior. There is no reason why children can not learn a little self-control. I would not tolerate this in my own dc. I'm actually surprised at the number of people who think his behavior is normal for any gender, any age.

 

Sorry, I cannot offer advice about how to deal with this is a classroom situation, but I see no problem with setting a higher standard and expecting it to be met.

 

 

You know, I've been thinking of this a lot today and I do think there are going to be lots of things he says that I am going to deem as not appropriate for the classroom. My reasoning is that It isn't fair to the other children to have to sit and listen to me try to get him to expand or clarify his comments. I'm not teaching a debate class or a logic class. I also re-read my second post here...the one in which I talked about my own son, who is only 6, being able to have enough self-control to refrain from certain topics in public. There's no reason a 5th grader can't. I will try to be more patient with his artistic expressions...the vomit did show motion, I just found it disgusting especially when he demonstrated how the vomiting might occur. Certain topics, especially those revolving around death, killing and blood\guts is going to be off limits.

 

I still really appreciate everyone's input.

[5LittleMonkeys]

A few things pop out at me based on what you have said. You said he seems to be doing it for the shock factor. Can we say, looking for attention through negativity? Also, the obsession with the grotesque and violent. That may be simple boyish love of gross and gore due to over exposure to violent TV and video games, or it can be a window into a mind that has been violated by the violence of others and this is how he tries to work it out. It can sometimes be an angry cry for help. It might be nothing and normal. I can't say based on just the little that you have mentioned. Have you considered recommending a professional psychologist to evaluate the artwork and look for signs that could help make a fair diagnosis? I haven't read what everyone else is saying, but I was a jr. high teacher for a time. This sort of activity and expression is not common since it continues even after it has been addressed and may be a sign of problems that run deep. I had one student that used art and writing to express herself similarly. I became concerned and pursued it by recommending professional evaluation. She was found to be very depressed and in 7th grade had already contemplated suicide on multiple occasions. I want to say it's nothing and don't worry about it, but I'm not equipped to make that call. If you are concerned, please consider the child with compassion and consider asking for professional advice for his sake.

 

I did want to address this. We don't have time for free art in the art class, and the projects we do are specific...so he can use some creativity but they are more "project" type art. What I've seen from these doesn't raise any flags as far as any type of abuse going on. I think he does play a lot of violent video games, a lot of tv, wrestling. I'm not with this child enough to determine much more. I only teach him for about 2 hours once a week. I will, however, keep what you've mentioned in mind when dealing with him from this point on.

[Tracy]

I am not sure it would be appropriate to deal with this without his family. I am doubtful that you could make a change on your own. This is the kind of thing that needs constant attention and gentle reminders throughout the day, and perhaps incentives, as well. You can't just expect to help this child clean up his act for the time that he is in this class. He talks like that because that is how he always talks. It is a habit. You didn't mention how long or how often this class meets, but unless it is everyday, I would not think you would have enough time with him to make a difference. And even if it is a daily class, it will be a lot more successful if the parents are on board and working with him at home.

[Incognito]

I'm surprised at the number of replies defending his behavior. There is no reason why children can not learn a little self-control. I would not tolerate this in my own dc. I'm actually surprised at the number of people who think his behavior is normal for any gender, any age.

 

Sorry, I cannot offer advice about how to deal with this is a classroom situation, but I see no problem with setting a higher standard and expecting it to be met.

I don't know if you thought I was defending the behavior by saying I run into it and how I handle it, but I hope not.

 

It is totally different dealing with a child a couple of hours a week vs. your own. You can't change their character in a couple of hours a week.

 

I re-read the OP (and the subsequent posts by OP) and realize he's even more of a handful than I was picturing. Is it possible to have the assistant teacher be mostly one-on-one handling him and re-directing him before he causes problems? We've ended up doing that with a couple of kids who are especially hard to handle in our program and that has helped. The leader builds relationship with them, keeps them constantly busy (helping the teacher with special projects can be really good), and they get a LOT of positive reinforcement for positive things.

[TechWife]

I also re-read my second post here...the one in which I talked about my own son, who is only 6, being able to have enough self-control to refrain from certain topics in public. There's no reason a 5th grader can't.

 

 

I read your question & all of the responses & I keep coming back to Aspergers Syndrome. A 5th grader with Aspergers Syndrome would have a great deal of difficulty in determining what is appropriate and what is not.

 

Another thought I had was it may be your preference that he refrain from certain topics in public, but is that a valid reason? Nothing bothers me more than when a teacher tells me my son made an "inappropriate" comment & it turned out to be personal preference, not something that was truly disruptive. Why do these comments bother you so much? Are they really inappropriate or do they simply reflect that you have a student who thinks outside the box? Do these things really impact the quality of instruction in the classroom? What is more disruptive to the classroom - his statements or your response? It's just something to think about.

 

I can also think of a dozen things that might have happened in the course of a normal life for a fifth grader to make those types of associations - an older brother or parent who lifts weights, having some type of injury that bled significantly (like a head wound - my son's chin bled a lot when he split it open), the death of a family member, friend or pet.

 

So, if you decide that you want to approach the mom, do it very carefully. Also, be prepared for the fact that, like many of the people who responded to this post, she may see this as being entirely appropriate. If that is the case, what will your response to her be? Is this a hill you want to die on where this child is concerned?

 

It's to the point that I cringe every time he opens his mouth because there are younger dc in the class and other dc who find him annoying already and I hate for him continue to confirm their dislike of him. I never know what is going to come out of his mouth or spring forth from his active imagination.

Are you confirming their dislike of him? Do the other students realize how he is affecting you? Are you calling him down publicly? Are you encouraging the other students to include him in their conversations? Are you complementing what is good and right that this child does?

[happypamama]

To some degree, I think that part of that is normal. I had an adorable little "peanut gallery" in my history class last fall, consisting of several 9-10yos. Honestly, I played to them. They were interested and engaged in the material, and I totally ran with it -- I pointed out the gross things and everything. I knew that I had two choices with these bright, curious kids: either gear things toward them and channel their energy and comments in productive ways, or lose them completely (and have them disrupt class). In all fairness, my own child was part of that group, and I was teaching at her request, so I did gear things toward them. When channeled properly, that little group was GREAT! They groaned and cheered appropriately, asked questions, etc. I loved it! I think in your case, I would have asked the kid why he thought Jesus wouldn't have had abs, asked him how he came up with his fable, etc. He certainly sounds creative!

 

Some of that sounds like a bit much, though. I could see some of the kids in my class asking about Jesus's abs, but this kid does sound like he's a bit more than that. I really think I would discuss it with his parent(s). Sometimes there's only so much channeling you, as the teacher, can do, and the parent needs to lay down the law and insist that the child not be rude, disrespectful, or disruptive. I think I would share with the parent(s) how creative the child is but state that he's requiring too a disproportionate amount of attention from the adults, and also that you're concerned about the negative outlook.

[stripe]

I'm surprised at the number of replies defending his behavior. There is no reason why children can not learn a little self-control.

I wasn't defending his behavior. I was saying that his interest in gore didn't make him a freak, which was suggested by several others on here. I do think his behavior sounds like it could be annoying, especially after attending my first ever homeschooling activity and seeing a kid like this who just wouldn't shut up.

 

Eta: I think it could be equally annoying to have a whiny girl saying, "But I want to look at horses and flowers!" all day long. The issue is, I think, the interruption. There is art that has been exhibited in museums and produced throughout uman history that involve dead bodies, death, and bodily fluids. I went to a Catholic school that contained a tortured human form, in every classroom. That model of Jesus on the cross was seen as a form of religious expression, not as a sign of mental disturbance.

[jujsky]

He sounds a lot like my son, who is 9. Many little boys do this -- it's a boy thing. My brother's third grade teacher confirmed it when my mom brought up a similar concern and that was years and years ago. I think the more attention you bring to it, the worse it is. I agree with another poster who said to use his answers to draw more information out of him. "Why do you think that Jesus had no abs?" "Why did you choose vomit and then a dead bird. Vomit doesn't really depict movement. Maybe you can sculpt a person vomiting instead." "A dead cobra couldn't bite someone in the face because it's dead. Please come up with a different sentence." Focus on a good part of his sentence. If he uses a strong verb or adjective, praise him for that while ignoring the part of the sentence you find objectionable. If he's doing it for shock value you've been giving him exactly what he wants, which is only going to make things worse.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

What is the big deal if he does his art standing up?

 

I completely get kids who do this kind of thing and in fact he is one of them. He stands up to do his art...in fact one day he wanted to do his art while standing at my desk...I didn't have a problem with that at all. He's also allowed to lay on the floor during writing class.

 

I think what isn't coming across in my posts is the reason some are wondering what the big deal is and thinking I want him to conform just because of my own personal aversion to his few, often humorous comments. That's not totally the case.

 

There is a lot I haven't included in my examples of things he talks about: boogers, snot, poop, pee, bo*bs, butts, decapitation, heads on spikes...I could go on. Is this typical fodder for things boys like to talk about? Apparently so. Is it appropriate in all circumstances? No. I have younger dc in this class that I don't want exposed to decapitations and blood and guts, and I don't have TIME to address every comment that comes out of this kids mouth...he literally talks non-stop if allowed.

 

Which leads me to this posted by jujsky:

 

I think the more attention you bring to it, the worse it is. I agree with another poster who said to use his answers to draw more information out of him. "Why do you think that Jesus had no abs?" "Why did you choose vomit and then a dead bird. Vomit doesn't really depict movement. Maybe you can sculpt a person vomiting instead." "A dead cobra couldn't bite someone in the face because it's dead. Please come up with a different sentence." Focus on a good part of his sentence. If he uses a strong verb or adjective, praise him for that while ignoring the part of the sentence you find objectionable.

 

The bolded is mine. You suggest not drawing attention to it but then go on to explain a method for dealing with him...that draws more attention to it. At the beginning of co-op I tried to do this kind of thing with him and it was like it made it worse. He would end up monopolizing way too much time with his comment after comment. In your example of telling him the cobra couldn't bite someone if it was dead ... if I said that to him he would have come up with something like it was a zombie cobra, or Jesus resurrected it ... and of coarse those comments get the whole rest of the class stirred up. So, by the time we get back to the task at hand it's been 5 minutes of our precious class time, which means someone else might not get a turn at participation. If I had a class room of just a few students it might be different but I have 12 in one class and 10 in the other.

 

I completely get what you (jujsky) and others are saying, and I agree that that might be the ideal way to deal with this child in a one on one situation, but I just don't know how to make it work in this environment.

 

 

I originally wanted advice on what language (what selection of words) to use with him to get him to understand exactly what is fine in the classroom and what isn't. When I say to him, "I'd like you to start thinking about your choice of words and the content of your comments before you make them" he has no clue what I'm talking about. When I say, "Try to only comment when it's something really important that you want to share so that you don't monopolize our time" it doesn't work because he thinks everything he says is really important including letting everyone know that he farted. When I say, "Keep your comments relative to the topic we are on" it doesn't work because he is clever enough to make all of his comments about what we are discussing or doing. When I say, "No more gross, negative talk..blah, blah, blah" he says okay but then is right back to it 10 minutes later. And let me clarify here...I don't THINK he is being defiant, I just think he doesn't associate gross and negative to what he is doing. Of coarse then there is the possibility that he is doing this for the shock value and the attention, in which case I definitely don't want to draw attention to it by engaging in a discussion about every comment.

 

I asked advice because I don't just want to ban him from talking altogether (which would be the easiest thing to do ;) ). I don't spend enough time with this child every week to change him so my only option for the sake of the WHOLE class is to make certain topics completely off limits. I also don't mind occasionally asking him to clarify a comment or getting him to think harder about choice of words, but, as I said, I have lots of other dc in the classroom that need and deserve attention to...I have one tiny, painfully shy little one that I'm trying to GET to share her opinions and say more than two words...I will at some point, several times during class just have to ask him to stop commenting and let the others have their turns.

 

Thanks again for the conversation about this. I think it will help me be more patient and understanding with him.

[Mandy in TN]

Yeah, co-op groups are difficult to organize. It is difficult to teach to a broad age group. Some kids are very advanced by ps standards and some kids' parents expect so little in the way of output that the kids don't have a clue how to produce what is asked.

 

Honestly, with the artwork I fall into the group that would be excited to have an interested student who responds to what is being presented. I may would give this older interested child sticky note suggestions on things to research further at home. Don't stop teaching or following the path that you had planned for the lesson. Say something along the lines of, "That is an interesting thought on this subject but not what we will be exploring today. Why don't you research that some more at home?" While saying this, write it on a sticky note and put it on his folder, paper, or whatever.

 

As far as the artwork created, I try just to be supportive of whatever is produced and encouraging in general. If a child produces something/ anything, then I am excited. When showing student's work to the group, I do not use words like good and bad and instead focus on discussing how the art produced follows the given directions or in what ways it mimics the original piece of art that was explored. If a piece in no way follows directions or mimics the original piece, I may not show it as an example. If I have time, I may ask the student in what way their art mimics the original or if they can explain how their work follows directions xyz. If they can give an explanation that makes sense to them even if not to me, I say great and move on. If they can not, then I carefully suggest that next time they pay closer attention to the original or the directions. Either way, if they produce something/ anything rather than bothering their classmates or doing something not class related (like reading for another class or texting), then I try to encourage them to interact with what I present instead of going to the parent.

 

As far as retelling stories, I would impress upon the whole class the importance of following directions. (I would be more shocked if you had a group of homeschoolers from k-5 who are all able and willing to write in complete sentences and follow directions!) I would not single him out, but I would explain that they all need to follow directions so that the story makes sense when each person contributes. Tell the class that if they offer a sentence that does not follow/ changes the story line then their sentence will not be used. Then, if he gives you a sentence that will not work, tell him so and move on to the next person. Do not comment, show shock or frustration, or waste class time engaging in conversation about it. Move on.

 

I once taught grammar to a group of middle school- jrhigh age boys. Every week we would build a sentence where I asked for each part of the sentence from the students adding in the the new topic covered and reviewing the old topics. Every week Bob was causing explosions, death, and/ or general mayhem. I do think that this line of thinking is typical for boys this age.

Mandy

[Paige]

How old are these children- youngest-oldest and age of boy? What I would do, is make the kids raise their hand to talk and then you could choose who to call on. Give him a chance a couple times but not always. If raising hands doesn't work, ask the kids by name for answers to questions instead of opening it to everyone. If kid blurts in, remind him that it is someone else's turn.

 

I still think you should engage him on his comments as little as possible, "That looks like vomit." "Okay..., and Sarah, what do you think?" If you must engage, and I have to engage my own DS, you can say, "Tell me something positive or beautiful about this instead of something negative or ugly." If he has no clue, give him examples.

 

I would not allow words like poop, boobs, and butt. If he persists, that is a discipline problem. Tell his mother that he continues to use inappropriate language. Or take him to his mother and eject him from class. That's our co-op's discipline rule.

 

The main thing, however, is that I think you need to recognize your bias, recognize that you don't like him, and be proactive to avoid letting him see it. Force yourself to praise something he does every time you see him.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

 

Honestly, with the artwork I fall into the group that would be excited to have an interested student who responds to what is being presented. I may would give this older interested child sticky note suggestions on things to research further at home. Don't stop teaching or following the path that you had planned for the lesson. Say something along the lines of, "That is an interesting thought on this subject but not what we will be exploring today. Why don't you research that some more at home?" While saying this, write it on a sticky note and put it on his folder, paper, or whatever.

 

Thank you... acknowledging that he has an opinion but being firm that we won't discuss it further right now.

 

As far as the artwork created, I try just to be supportive of whatever is produced and encouraging in general. If a child produces something/ anything, then I am excited. When showing student's work to the group, I do not use words like good and bad and instead focus on discussing how the art produced follows the given directions or in what ways it mimics the original piece of art that was explored. If a piece in no way follows directions or mimics the original piece, I may not show it as an example. If I have time, I may ask the student in what way their art mimics the original or if they can explain how their work follows directions xyz. If they can give an explanation that makes sense to them even if not to me, I say great and move on. If they can not, then I carefully suggest that next time they pay closer attention to the original or the directions. Either way, if they produce something/ anything rather than bothering their classmates or doing something not class related (like reading for another class or texting), then I try to encourage them to interact with what I present instead of going to the parent.

 

In retrospect I should have allowed the vomit. I think it was more his display of fake vomiting (and getting the other dc riled up) that irritated me.

 

As far as retelling stories, I would impress upon the whole class the importance of following directions. (I would be more shocked if you had a group of homeschoolers from k-5 who are all able and willing to write in complete sentences and follow directions!) I would not single him out, but I would explain that they all need to follow directions so that the story makes sense when each person contributes. Tell the class that if they offer a sentence that does not follow/ changes the story line then their sentence will not be used. Then, if he gives you a sentence that will not work, tell him so and move on to the next person. Do not comment, show shock or frustration, or waste class time engaging in conversation about it. Move on.

 

You know, I don't think I have ever explained to the class like this...most of the dc just seem to understand that the main guy can't die halfway through the story otherwise we will never get to the moral.

 

 

 

 

Thank you Mandy. :)

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

The main thing, however, is that I think you need to recognize your bias, recognize that you don't like him, and be proactive to avoid letting him see it. Force yourself to praise something he does every time you see him.

 

 

I don't know if I don't like him because I can't get far enough past his behavior to really get to know him. I think he does have a very unique view of things, he's creative, thinks outside the box, and is very smart ... I want to like him. I will be more aware of making sure not to make him think I don't like him though. Thank you.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

At this point he can do no right. You only see it as all wrong.

 

 

I came here asking for help with this because I care about how I deal with him. I don't just want to dismiss him, tell him to shut up or kick him out of my class. I could have done that without the advice from the this forum. I want him to be in the class and participate, and I want him to be able to learn.

 

I don't see it as all wrong...there are many admirable qualities he has that I mentioned above. I thought I made it clear that I was trying to deal with him in a way that was fair to him but at the same time fair to the rest of the class as well.

 

If you'd like to give advice as to how you would deal with it I'd be happy to hear it but don't start assuming you know me, or what is in my head. Your comment is rude, inaccurate, and not helpful at all.

[Paige]

 

Yeah and this is incredibly negative on the part of the teacher. The teacher is saying very clearly, "I don't like what you have chosen to do, your taste, your humor, or your point of view. Now please just tell me what I want to hear."

 

Art is not just pretty and positive. Vomit is part of life. Vomit CAN be art. He followed the instructions.

 

I see it as avoiding an argument. She's already told him that he should not be using negative/gross speech so he is not following the directions. I don't necessarily agree that it is inappropriate to use those descriptions, but she has made it clear that in her class he has been told repeatedly that it is inappropriate. My DS would say the exact same things and he would know that he was engaging in negative/gross talk. It's probably an impulse issue. Maybe he feels bad after he blurts it but then it's too late. I suggest not engaging him and arguing about it each time. Let it go.

 

I also think kids do need to learn that some of their ideas and humor are not appropriate in every situation. Sometimes they do need to just tell the teacher something he or she wants to hear. It will serve him well in college. ;) If it were me, I wouldn't mind the gross talk as much, but I don't know the class or the culture of the group. There's 2 issues here- 1- he's not following the teacher's guidelines that have been clearly laid out. 2- are the guidelines fair?

[5LittleMonkeys]

But I do want to know, is he being disruptive? Or is it just the content of what he says?

 

It's hard to give advice if I don't know what the exact problem is.

 

He is being disruptive in the sense that his comments are frequent, his comments and actions keep the other dc stirred up, he monopolizes discussions, and my attempts to re-direct him take up a huge amount of time in a very short class period.

 

I don't know if you've ever taught in a classroom setting, but something as simple as a boy farting and then saying, "Who stepped on a duck?" can turn into quiet a disruption. Aside from the fact that he interrupted me mid sentence while I'm at the board teaching...by the time I settle all the laughing dc back down they've totally forgotten about the adverb clause I was showing them and I have to back up and re-explain what I was talking about. Multiply that by the 3 or 4 times during class that something like this happens, plus the times I have to re-direct him to stay on topic, plus the times I have to re-explain to him 3 times what an adverb phrase is because he wasn't listening the second time I explained it. If he farted and made that comment in a home situation it would be funny and we would move on...it isn't that simple in a class of 12 other dc.

 

I'm sure if others have dc like this they see it as me being too hard on him. I'm trying not to be but I have a lot of other dc to consider.

[TechWife]

I originally wanted advice on what language (what selection of words) to use with him to get him to understand exactly what is fine in the classroom and what isn't. When I say to him, "I'd like you to start thinking about your choice of words and the content of your comments before you make them" he has no clue what I'm talking about. When I say, "Try to only comment when it's something really important that you want to share so that you don't monopolize our time" it doesn't work because he thinks everything he says is really important including letting everyone know that he farted. When I say, "Keep your comments relative to the topic we are on" it doesn't work because he is clever enough to make all of his comments about what we are discussing or doing. When I say, "No more gross, negative talk..blah, blah, blah" he says okay but then is right back to it 10 minutes later. And let me clarify here...I don't THINK he is being defiant, I just think he doesn't associate gross and negative to what he is doing. Of coarse then there is the possibility that he is doing this for the shock value and the attention, in which case I definitely don't want to draw attention to it by engaging in a discussion about every comment.

 

It's entirely possible he isn't making the associations between his behavior and what is socially acceptable in the classroom environment. Since you don't think he's being defiant & explaining what the idea behind what you want him to say hasn't worked so far, consider taking a very direct approach.

 

I'm not sure how much time you have left in the school year, so you may have to adjust this some, but here's an idea:

 

Give his mom a call or have a face to face meeting with her - let her know that, while he can be very funny, the things he says aren't always appropriate to the situation in the classroom. Be prepared to give her one or two examples, but don't unload them all, it would overwhelm her. Ask her if she has any ideas for you & then listen carefully to what she says. You can then run with what she says, or say something like, "I have an idea that I'm going to put in place that I think will help all of us." Then explain the following:

 

"I will give him a small card each time he comes into the classroom. The card will have words on it that he can't say during the class time. If he makes it through the class without using them, he will get a peppermint (or whatever, but make it inexpensive). Please explain this to him ahead of time and let him know it's going to be our special game, no one else will even know we're playing it.

 

You can choose which words to put on the card, but start with only two words. You might want to pick one that is most important to you and one that he only occasionally uses; alternatively, you could pick the frequently used words. In any case, it's important that you choose the words. Put them on a small card (like maybe 1/2 of a 3x5 card) so that it fits into the palm of his hand. Hand it to him as discreetly as possible.

 

Once he makes it through a class w/out using the words on the card, add one new word to the list the following week. Now he has three words not to use. Keep rewarding and adding words as appropriate. If you do this for say, three weeks, and it doesn't work or it totally backfires, then it's time for another talk with mom. Perhaps he needs a one on one shadow to remind him of when he can and can't speak.

 

I'm not sure how the Q & A flow is in your class, so these next ideas might not work, but maybe they will: :

When you ask a question, make it as specific as possible. Since there are younger children in the classroom, this will be helpful to them as well. This means no "What do you think.. or what do you like... general questions. Instead they would be "What do you think about the colors the artist used in this picture?" or "What was the artist doing by using both lights and dark shades of blue in the window?" The purpose of this is twofold: one, you are making sure the question is very concrete and understandable and two, you are giving him as little wiggle room as possible to make off the wall comments.

 

Do you have a "raise the hand" policy? If not, try to get one going. This next idea would be helpful in times when you are checking with the class to see if they have any questions. It worked very well in a class I taught once. So imagine this dialogue:

Teacher: "Do you have any questions about the assignment?"

three kids raise their hands, including this young man.

Teacher: "Remember, we're asking questions, not telling stories." - say this before you call on anyone

Young man puts his hand down (ideally) OR

Teacher: "Yes, young man, what is your question about the assignment?" - again, this is very specific

Young man: "I saw a purple platypus..."

Teacher: interrupts young man "This is question time, not story time. Let me know if you have a question later."

Teacher: "Yes, Janie, what's your question about the assignment?" - again being very specific, hoping he realizes you aren't singling him out.

 

OK, another idea:

 

Explain to him that the questions he asks and the answers he gives in class should be like popcorn - they go up quickly and settle right back down so the other corn has space to pop. His questions should be quick so that everyone who has a question gets to ask it. Alternatively, you could explain this to the class as a whole, then it might help your quieter children as well by letting them know you aren't expecting them to have a huge long statement or question. After you've introduced the idea, anytime after that, you could say "Does anyone have questions about the assignment, remember, we're doing popcorn questions so you have time to get your work done." If you decide to ask a general question, it would go something like this:

"We're going to talk about art you have seen during the week. I can take four popcorn answers. Did any of you see a photograph this week that you want to tell us about?" If an answer gets too long, no matter who says it, say "pop" and move to the next one.

 

Some of the popcorn stuff might be silly to the older kids, but it might not. I know one of the groups I'm in says "popcorn prayers."

 

 

Are any of these ideas helpful?

[5LittleMonkeys]

I don't think he could totally help himself though.

 

I suspect this may be part of the problem with this child which is why I'm trying to be as sensitive to it as possible. If I really thought he was just being an unruly brat I would exercise my rights according to our co-op rules and remove him from the class.

 

I will try some of the suggestions I've been given here and, along with seeing him through a different lens, see how the next class goes before I contact the mom.

 

Thank you all again for the conversation.

[5LittleMonkeys]

 

 

 

Are any of these ideas helpful?

 

Yes, very much so...even for future classes. Thank you.

[butterflymommy]

Constant, inappropriate comments can be a symptom of tourettes. How old is this child?

 

We have a friend whose DS has tourettes and the things he says are very, very shocking and inappropriate. I don't think he can control it. Very offensive, often x-rated things come out of this otherwise normal kid's mouth.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I don't have any advice to have, but have you ever followed the comic strip, Frazz? Me thinks you'd relate to it :tongue_smilie: .

ANd here is one. And this one. And I could do this all day.

[Forgiven]

I must apologize if my comment from days ago came across wrong. I focused on parts of this boy that I found to be funny and very common amongst the boys I know, including my own "killing"-drawing boy. I did not comment on the rudeness of the boy, and for that I apologize. I think half of the stuff I read fizzles out of my brain before I finish typing my posts.

 

Anyway, this boy does sound very disruptive. I wish I had advice for you and this situation. I know with my little boy, we have a list of words that are unacceptable for him to say. He knows he's not supposed to say them, so he comes up with other words to use in place of them. Yes, my 6-year-old has come up with a new language. He has taught it to my other two kids and they use this language whenever they want to talk about something that has to do with one or more of the banned words. Poop, pee, butt, penis, vagina (penis and vagina are only on the list for when they say them out of context or in bad taste. In other words, if they aren't using them in an appropriate way), die, stupid, idiot, jerk, etc... I didn't think the list was that long until I wrote them all out. He has gotten better.

 

We have had a couple of incidents with my 6 year old drawing pictures of naked people at church. Now, when I first heard about this--before seeing the pictures--I was livid, embarrassed, and just wanted to yell at him. But then I saw the pictures. They weren't obscene. He used circles where a woman's breasts would be to depict the difference between the boy and the girl. I believe it was a picture of two people getting married. He even drew an arch of flowers over their heads. I couldn't believe the teacher made a fuss about it. He was just using the only way he could think of to differentiate between the boy and girl. I wasn't mad after seeing it. The second picture was something similar and I didn't freak out as much because I knew it wouldn't be obscene, and it wasn't. But he did get in trouble because we had already told him that he should use different ways to show the difference between the genders, like a dress for the girl, instead of breasts. He hasn't done it again since. *knock on wood*

 

Anyway, having a kid like this is challenging, and I can see why you're frustrated with this boy in your class. The getting up and walking out, talking over you, using inappropriate language, it's rude and disrespectful--not only to you, but also to the other children in the class. Again, I wish I had advice. As a mom of a child who has the potential to be just as poorly behaved as this boy you're dealing with, I'd want to know about it so that I could discuss it with him. I'm not sure if his mom is easy to talk to or not. I know that we have some moms in our HS group that don't think their kids can do anything wrong and when confronted by other adults about their kids' behavior, they blame the adults and insist their kids could never do "that". *roll eyes*. I hope his mom is not like that. :(

 

Best of luck to you! Oh, and I still laugh over the vomit sculpture. Seriously, it's funny...I hope that some day--maybe in a few years--you can look back and remember the vomit with a smile on your face...some day...