Does Winter Promise always have crappy processing time?

[elizabeth rose]

well on their fb page, I have posted about common issues with them under the other thread and now they want to talk to me privately about it. I stated that I think it should be public since many of us have the same issues and my missing, delayed or incorrect deliveries were not unique to me. I just want them to say specifically how they have changed, specifically, not politician feel good talk that really doesn't inspire me. I really want to order the exclusives for AS2, but why do I feel like such a sucker?

[cbollin]

well on their fb page, I have posted about common issues with them under the other thread and now they want to talk to me privately about it. I stated that I think it should be public since many of us have the same issues and my missing, delayed or incorrect deliveries were not unique to me. I just want them to say specifically how they have changed, specifically, not politician feel good talk that really doesn't inspire me. I really want to order the exclusives for AS2, but why do I feel like such a sucker?

 

 

hugs... just a guess here on the feeling like a sucker..... Pretend for a moment, you're on Dr. Phil.. wait... it's my show... Dr. Jazzermom.. is this some of it...? is this why it's hard to just use another program?

 

 

DJ: so Elizabeth.... you think you've been deceived by patterns of poor behaviors, and trust is broken. Is this someone you are married to, related to and need to have a personal relationship with?

 

ER: well.. Dr. J. no.... I was just buying curriculum. you know.. homeschool.. have to teach my children, and I like living books, and ....

 

DJ: so, this isn't the case of woman running back to the same man who cheats on her and always says this time it will be different... trust me...and then a year later, it's the same story, and a year later, same story..... Oh good. I was worried we were on the Springer show.. and a fight was breaking out...when you see he hasn't changed at all..

 

ER: nervous giggle...

 

DJ: Just buying curriculum. you say.... then, find another business... this is not about a friend who needs forgiveness. (stage hand cues audience to cheer on the signature rhyme)

 

Haven't you seen them pull this routine on everyone for the last few years? They say "we're small and overwhelmed".... please give us another chance... They say "we just moved to a new state"... and then move to another state... please.. .we'll change.. we "promise". and then they want to keep it private, so that you hear his smooth voice and pretty promises.... hmmm.. and does it change? no.. just search the hive... you'll know.. it's the same ole same ole....

 

They aren't your friends... they aren't your relatives. You can forgive them for poor business practices and move on to buy another product. You're not a bad religious person if you do that.

 

ER: but but but what will I use instead?

 

DJ: lots of stuff out there... but that would be a mean commercial sign is lit and who knows what happens then?

 

 

***

Elizabeth Rose, I hear you on not wanting to change curriculum. I've used one of WP's competitors for a decade. I would struggle to change. But, that company and most every other homeschool vendor runs better business practices. But I really dont' think WP will change, and you and the others who delight in the product will have to do the same hoop jumping... order months in advance... delays in ebooks..get everything else on your own from amazon...... they aren't going to change unless their business drops off to a place where they can handle it. and even then...

 

are you willing to jump like that, and knowing in advance it is like that? if so.. then don't feel like a sucker if you use their stuff. You know what you're getting into, and accept the conditions of being there.

But if you are thinking it is not worth the bad service and all of that ... then don't go there. Think of it as a restaurant. If you always got bad service, you'd eat somewhere else, and be happier for it.

 

 

((hugs)) and thank you for being on the dr. j show.

[elizabeth rose]

 

 

hugs... just a guess here on the feeling like a sucker..... Pretend for a moment, you're on Dr. Phil.. wait... it's my show... Dr. Jazzermom.. is this some of it...? is this why it's hard to just use another program?

 

 

DJ: so Elizabeth.... you think you've been deceived by patterns of poor behaviors, and trust is broken. Is this someone you are married to, related to and need to have a personal relationship with?

 

ER: well.. Dr. J. no.... I was just buying curriculum. you know.. homeschool.. have to teach my children, and I like living books, and ....

 

DJ: so, this isn't the case of woman running back to the same man who cheats on her and always says this time it will be different... trust me...and then a year later, it's the same story, and a year later, same story..... Oh good. I was worried we were on the Springer show.. and a fight was breaking out...when you see he hasn't changed at all..

 

ER: nervous giggle...

 

DJ: Just buying curriculum. you say.... then, find another business... this is not about a friend who needs forgiveness. (stage hand cues audience to cheer on the signature rhyme)

 

 

You are so funny!!! Thank you for showing me the obvious, and I really mean that!!

 

 

Haven't you seen them pull this routine on everyone for the last few years? They say "we're small and overwhelmed".... please give us another chance... They say "we just moved to a new state"... and then move to another state... please.. .we'll change.. we "promise". and then they want to keep it private, so that you hear his smooth voice and pretty promises.... hmmm.. and does it change? no.. just search the hive... you'll know.. it's the same ole same ole....

 

They aren't your friends... they aren't your relatives. You can forgive them for poor business practices and move on to buy another product. You're not a bad religious person if you do that.

 

ER: but but but what will I use instead?

 

DJ: lots of stuff out there... but that would be a mean commercial sign is lit and who knows what happens then?

 

 

***

Elizabeth Rose, I hear you on not wanting to change curriculum. I've used one of WP's competitors for a decade. I would struggle to change. But, that company and most every other homeschool vendor runs better business practices. But I really dont' think WP will change, and you and the others who delight in the product will have to do the same hoop jumping... order months in advance... delays in ebooks..get everything else on your own from amazon...... they aren't going to change unless their business drops off to a place where they can handle it. and even then...

 

are you willing to jump like that, and knowing in advance it is like that? if so.. then don't feel like a sucker if you use their stuff. You know what you're getting into, and accept the conditions of being there.

But if you are thinking it is not worth the bad service and all of that ... then don't go there. Think of it as a restaurant. If you always got bad service, you'd eat somewhere else, and be happier for it.

 

 

((hugs)) and thank you for being on the dr. j show.

[elizabeth rose]

My quote came out weird, i just wanted to thank you, you are really funny, but speak the truth!!! I so enjoyed being a guest on your show :)

[Scrub Jay]

Very thoughtful response this morning:

 

Mary, the request to talk with you was not intended to reflect a need for privacy, but instead was born out of a desire to reach out to you personally. We have shared specifics both publicly and privately, and with families affected by delays over the past couple of years. It sounds like you may not have been one that we shared with, and that you missed some of the venues in which we've shared publicly. It is not our intent not to acknowledge problems. We really do try to help our families, and have no desire not to acknowledge issues that affect them. In fact, many of our customers have heard directly from us the information below. We're happy to share this information again here.

 

As to specifics of shipping issues, the problem traces back to how WP started and how we grew. WP was at a critical point in our growth, growing almost too fast thanks to the internet, when the economy took a turn, and the credit crunch affected many small businesses. This critical point couldn't have happened at a worse time for WP, a company in need of capital to keep pace with too-fast overgrowth. At the same time, the economy also created an environment where many of our book suppliers reduced credit lines to smaller companies or quit offering them entirely. Many book companies also stopped publishing educational titles they saw as bringing in less revenue. This created delays in getting books out to families for both reasons -- shipment turnaround and out-of-print books. This affected us as a smaller company in different ways than it would affect larger, established homeschool curriculum providers, that can demand a 5,000-book print run on out-of-print books.

 

Additionally, when a business does most of its business inside four months of the year, slow shipment turnaround is a problem that compounds itself. In the climate of the credit crunch, capital simply wasn't available for unproven "dot-com" businesses. We've always been the first ones to admit that we had a lot to learn as to how to remedy a problem that was not as simple as it appeared on the surface. At this point it may be helpful to know how our business started.

 

We never intended to start a business -- people just started asking us for the curriculum Kaeryn wrote. The next year they all insisted on next year's curriculum, and we went crazy online! Without a business background, without capital behind us, and without foreknowledge of a crisis in the economy, we agreed. We had no idea how our fast growth would impact WinterPromise when the economy soured. We just wanted to help people who wanted our curriculum. That's all. That may help families understand the quandry of our small business.

 

Left without avenues to get the capital that would have quickly solved the problem once and for all, we had to make decisions to do the things we could do. We had to attack the problem on a number of fronts, and remember, without a business background -- we had to learn as we went. Some things worked, others didn't. One thing we look back on and wished we could change was that we wished we hadn't expanded how many programs we offered in those first few years, even though our families were begging for them. But hindsight is always 20/20, right?

 

Over the last several years, we have done everything we could to change our families' experiences. We have installed processes to order from vendors with a faster turnaround, and, whenever possible, deal with vendors who work better with our small business. We began publishing more of our own titles to protect against the unavailability of key titles that would affect a program the most. We now publish well over 130 of our own exclusive resources, resources we strive to make better than any title we might otherwise use. We have restructured our programs and sets so that we deal less (or not at allt) with vendors that are unstable or don't keep books in print. We have also changed how we sell adventure reading, and readers to streamline the turnaround and shipping process in-house for our customers and give them more options. And, we've also begun selling ebooks, which are delivered same day or within 24-48 hours of ordering to give parents a "right away" option in getting started with guides and other exclusives. Plus, we are offering smaller package options for parents who'd prefer to get some books elsewhere, borrow them, or utilize the library.

 

We began to see the fruits of all of those efforts coming together last year. We had fewer problems than ever before, and we are in a place now with WinterPromise that we have never been before. If you didn't order last year, you may not have seen that improvement first hand, and the times a company does well just don't make it as often to the internet, unfortunately. Some WP families may not even be aware that there were problems in the past as they have not encountered them first-hand themselves.

 

To answer the specific issues you brought up, no -- we do not print our exclusives on demand. As to ordering from Amazon, we have utilized Amazon in very minor ways, not to ship to us and then to you, but to fulfill orders that presented specific issues. For instance, when publishers run low on a title that is going out of print, Amazon typically has a backstock of those books that we can purchase to meet the needs of our families. There have been times when a vendor is shipping slowly, or shuts down their facility for holidays, etc., that we have shipped to a customer from Amazon because it was in the customer's best interest to do so. They would have the book faster if we went that route. Sometimes it is more cost-effective for us to send a book or two along with the original book because of how their shipping is structured. And the package is always shipped directly to our families from Amazon for the sake of speed -- it is never sent to WP and then sent on. It was never in WinterPromise's best interest to buy from Amazon. It was always to help our families. Because of the work we've done to eliminate problem titles, very few titles come from Amazon.

 

This year our parents should see a marked improvement again. Success (and our own hard-won experience in the trenches) does build on itself, and we hope that this explanation helps people understand both the complexity of the problem, and how diligently we have worked to make changes that would make a difference to our families.

 

Above all, we have sought to offer superior customer service so that every time you speak to us, we treat your concerns as very important to us. We truly care about our families, and it is our desire to continue to improve our service for you.

[LittleIzumi]

I may have asked this up thread, I can't remember (newborn in the house = not the best memory).

 

Does WP sell their products through other place, such as RR or Amazon? Namely, their equine science.

 

Not their exclusives (hence "WP exclusives") but they usually also utilize some books you can find on Amazon. From what others have posted, apparently some of those come straight from Amazon when you order from WP? I bought mine used so I can't say on that one.

[cbollin]

Agreeing that it interesting reading their business history. I remember in 2009 TOG went through the same economic conditions. HOD is a small business too. It's good to hear they are getting better even if they aren't there yet. kwim? it's not getting worse.

 

I’m laughing a little at WP indirectly talking about MFW’s purchase abilities. MFW isn’t that much older than WP, and only in a last couple of years have they been able to increase staff numbers. They weren’t from a business background either. They had to learn. I remember in 2007 attending the retreat that MFW does (WP has done similar things). MFW had about 7 full time employees then. I got to hear some stories of early convention “business failures†of MFW. And how they learned and how God grew it all. Then….the business manager came in with news that supplier wouldn’t give MFW something going out of print that was part of RTR. It was the first day of the retreat and they told us customers about it. We prayed. And the next day, the business manager came in “we got our miracle. They’ll do a final print run of 5000 copiesâ€. David said “buy it. And that should buy us some time to find a way to replace it in a few years. Don’t know where we’ll put them,.“ that was the year MFW was still in a rented warehouse, and still running the office from the garage of the author's house.

 

Just saying, all of the business issues that WP faces… the other companies face it too. And that it is interesting to read it from any of them. Hod, tog, wp, etc….. I find it interesting to read all of it. Helps me to see if the company is thinking and responding and trying to learn.

 

My heart goes out to WP as they grow. I’ve seen over the years how this stuff affected companies in homeschool that didn’t make it. I’ve seen how TOG changed a little here and there. And I see how HOD is growing. I value the variety in options for homeschoolers and don’t wish to see any of them fail.

 

but as I said on the Dr. J show earlier today…. Knowing that there are delays in the system, you can adjust. If you like the product that much, be ready for possible delays, and order early and know that you’re not the only one. If you just can’t do that, it’s ok to use other stuff. Just don’t harbor anything against them because they aren’t trying to be bad and you’re just buying books. Yes, there are common frustrations Yes everyone wishes it wasn't like that. if you're a super fan... pray for them or whatever you do (vibes, wishes, etc)... maybe they'll get their 5000 miracle as well.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I think it is unkind beyond measure to call them con artists. This is a small family business, not a well oiled machine. I find the continued need to bash the people behind this company rude and unpleasant.

 

The problem in a small business is inventory- storing ordering and keeping track of it is hard. and expensive.

 

con artist

1.a person adept at lying, cajolery [def. deception with soothing words or false promises], or glib self-serving talk.

2.a person adept at swindling by means of confidence games; swindler.

 

Well, I think it is unkind beyond measure to take people's money without delivering product as promised. Yes, the term con artist isn't pretty, but when a company exhibits these behaviors to the customer, I think it is deserved. They have made false promises even as they know their challenges will get in the way of fulfilling those promises, charged people for things well before they sent them out (if ever), refused returns because of missing a return window established by date of order even though all products were not yet even received (!!??)...

 

They have had the problems of a small business, yes. And then they acted like con artists in an attempt to keep their business from going under. I get the motivation there, but the behavior is still reprehensible. I find their continued need to mislead their customers rude and unpleasant. I do hope their changes will improve customer service and increase their company's stability and reputation.

 

I dont think 2 weeks is that long to wait ordering from a small family business. I think in this day and age where we become accustomed to buying from amazon and it being on our porch within hours we can get accustomed to that but you can not and should not expect a small business to duplicate amazon.

 

Of course two weeks is not too long to wait. And if the only drawback to their customer service was that you knew you were going to wait a couple of weeks, people wouldn't be so negative about them. LOL People would just say, "Oh, they take a long time to ship but it's worth it. We just love WP."

 

I’m laughing a little at WP indirectly talking about MFW’s purchase abilities.

 

Hmm. I wondered if they weren't talking about Sonlight, which seems to be the big powerhouse.

[cbollin]

 

Hmm. I wondered if they weren't talking about Sonlight, which seems to be the big powerhouse.

 

 

good point. that could been true as well. and would probably make more sense... since they are older, more established and all of that... probably who they meant.. good point. I don't know.

 

I just remember the time I witnessed it happen with mfw so it was something I knew about and remembered, and have heard they have been able to do with some books. or buy printing rights and things.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Accusing them of acting like a con artist is gross hyperbolizing and just plain mean spirited.

 

LOL Yeah, you pegged me. I'm a big ol' hyperbolic meanie. There is nothing in that dictionary definition to back up the use of the term. Nuh-uh.

[teeniebeenie6]

Accusing them of acting like a con artist is gross hyperbolizing and just plain mean spirited.

My husband said to me when we were discussing this issue, "If you take money knowing you won't be able to deliver in a timely matter then you are being dishonest." I think that is the point most people are bothered by. It is sad to be a small business but you can't use that as an excuse to take people's money and then not deliver what they ordered for months and months. They should have halted their business until they could order what they needed.

[Alte Veste Academy]

My husband said to me when we were discussing this issue, "If you take money knowing you won't be able to deliver in a timely matter then you are being dishonest." I think that is the point most people are bothered by. It is sad to be a small business but you can't use that as an excuse to take people's money and then not deliver what they ordered for months and months. They should have halted their business until they could order what they needed.

 

Exactly! That was why I included the sub-definition for cajolery. Apparently, they excel at soothing words and false promises.

[Mom0012]

I think it is unkind beyond measure to call them con artists. This is a small family business, not a well oiled machine. I find the continued need to bash the people behind this company rude and unpleasant.

 

The problem in a small business is inventory- storing ordering and keeping track of it is hard. and expensive.

 

I am guessing the decision has been made not to carry books at all and to only offer exclusives.

 

I dont think 2 weeks is that long to wait ordering from a small family business. I think in this day and age where we become accustomed to buying from amazon and it being on our porch within hours we can get accustomed to that but you can not and should not expect a small business to duplicate amazon.

 

 

I have ordered from WP since 2005 and never had significant issues with shipping. I have never ordered a complete package. I have generally ONLY ordered exclusives and guides.

 

 

I can understand having problems with shipping, but when I hear they only have a six-week return policy from the date of the order and that people often do not receive their order in that time period, something isn't right. Since they know they have problems in this area, that seems pretty inexcusable.

[Scrub Jay]

 

 

I can understand having problems with shipping, but when I hear they only have a six-week return policy from the date of the order and that people often do not receive their order in that time period, something isn't right. Since they know they have problems in this area, that seems pretty inexcusable.

 

 

Have people actually run up against this issue or just assume it is an issue because of the stated return policy? Does WP actually say too bad, no returns even though you received half your order post 6 weeks?

 

I agree, in practice it is BS and poor customer service if they are actually doing this.

[Alessandra]

 

We never intended to start a business -- people just started asking us for the curriculum Kaeryn wrote. The next year they all insisted on next year's curriculum, and we went crazy online! Without a business background, without capital behind us, and without foreknowledge of a crisis in the economy, we agreed. We had no idea how our fast growth would impact WinterPromise when the economy soured. We just wanted to help people who wanted our curriculum. That's all. That may help families understand the quandry of our small business.

 

 

 

This sounds disingenuous to me. Perhaps someone who is on Facebook could post this link for them.

 

http://www.sba.gov

 

It's for the Small Business Administration. It has a video on how to make a business plan. It has a link that will help you get free local assistance. Someone might hint to them that a business plan which involves providing all (or most) of the books for multiple programs might not be a good idea for an undercapitalized business.

[AKshanmar]

I have spent no time comparing the two programs, but I remembered that Beautiful Feet carries: http://bfbooks.com/History-of-the-Horse-Study-Guide?sc=21&category=-121 , which is probably very different, but might fill some nice "horse niche".

 

From having owned a bookstore, I can kind of picture what they are going through. They don't seem to have a very good supplier, because I have heard things often ship from Amazon. They might order different books from lots of individual publishers, which give you a cheaper price than a distibutor (we used Ingram), but it is really a PAIN! Sometimes it WAS cheaper to order from Amazon than my distributor, but still....! Obviously they don't have the cash flow to stock what they need. I feel bad for them.

[LittleIzumi]

Have people actually run up against this issue or just assume it is an issue because of the stated return policy? Does WP actually say too bad, no returns even though you received half your order post 6 weeks?

 

I agree, in practice it is BS and poor customer service if they are actually doing this.

 

I have certainly seen people complain on these boards about getting no refund when they didn't have the entire program after 6 weeks since it was after the time period, even though they didn't have the program to decide about yet. I don't have personal experience with that, though.

[Scrub Jay]

I have spent no time comparing the two programs, but I remembered that Beautiful Feet carries: http://bfbooks.com/History-of-the-Horse-Study-Guide?sc=21&category=-121 , which is probably very different, but might fill some nice "horse niche".

 

 

My plan is to get that as well. :)

[Alyeska]

Have people actually run up against this issue or just assume it is an issue because of the stated return policy? Does WP actually say too bad, no returns even though you received half your order post 6 weeks?

 

I agree, in practice it is BS and poor customer service if they are actually doing this.

 

Yes, I ran into this issue personally. I mentioned it upthread. I do believe when I ordered that the return policy was 30 days, but it could have been six weeks. In the end it didn't really matter. It took five weeks to ship a small part of my order AFTER my credit card had already been charged. Four months and an incomplete order later, I had to argue for a refund. To their credit, they did refund me minus the shipping.

 

I honestly hope the best for them. But at this point, I think that marketing to new customers would be their best option. Trying to win over old customers who had bad experiences would be a really tough sell.

[teeniebeenie6]

Oh! A video! I am sure that would have fixed everything! Gee, why didnt they google!?!

I don't understand the snarkiness?? She was trying to help.

 

I want Winter Promise to succeed, I think most people here do. There is nothing wrong with wanting and requesting improvements.

[mama27]

I'm sorry, if you are going to run a business and sell something to the public, you NEED to be prepared to do things like have timely shipments, FULL shipments, etc. If you went into a restaurant and paid for a buffet and they only had peas, butter, and uncooked shrimp, after advertising they had over 300 items, wouldn't you want your money back? Yes! And of course you would want it back THAT DAY, not months later. AND if this happened more than once this restaurant would no longer be in business, be sued, etc. but because this is a homeschool Christian company somehow they are exempt from following basic rules of business?

If they have so many problems, stop running the business and fix them! Since they don't do that and they do, in fact, have quite a bad rep for slow shipments, not shipping everything, returning refunds months (years?) later, AFTER the customer harrassed them for it, how is it mean-spitited to call them con artists? what else could you say about them/ This has been going on for YEARS. And they always have some sort of excuse instead of fixing the problem.This is the reason I never ordered from them till they had ebooks. When I did order it, I didn't get all of it and when I emailed was told they had health issues which delayed them getting the product finished. Apparently they have said this before? So, why not say that on the web sitelike Sonlight did when they came out with new IG's that were not ready when they thought they'd be?

Why do these issues only occur with WP and NOT with all the other homeschool, family-run, businesses?

Why are they always behind with shipping, refunds, etc?

And why is it that when people call them for it, that is wrong? How is it wrong to expect them to run their BUSINESS like a BUSINESS?

 

 

 

ETA: When I asked about the rest of my EBOOK (that did not have to be shipped) I was told it would be finished in about 2 weeks. 2 MONTHS later I emailed again asking for it. They did send it, but why did I have to email them and ask for something I'd already paid for? Do they keep hand-written records on their fridge or something?? Don't thhey have computers?

[elizabeth rose]

wait, I thought if you bought an e-book it was an instant download. How can they sell an instant download that isn't there???? I'm confused. That is just nuts.

[teeniebeenie6]

Tammy your experience scares me. We are doing a hybrid of A+W and CATW soon. I have everything I need except the Habitats, Hollows and Homes Journal. I wanted to get the ebook version but they said on facebook that you have to pay a $5 service fee if you want it on more then two devices and to have it protected. That makes it more expensive then the print addition. We are also upgrading our old laptop, so if I order before getting it that'll mess up my two allowed downloads. Maybe I should just skip the journal and use generic notebooking pages?

[mama27]

wait, I thought if you bought an e-book it was an instant download. How can they sell an instant download that isn't there???? I'm confused. That is just nuts.

 

I bought it and thought the same, didn't get it by the next day so I emailed and asked them and they said they send them within 2 business days. But I only got part of it because they said it wasn't completed due to health issues.

[mama27]

Tammy your experience scares me. We are doing a hybrid of A+W and CATW soon. I have everything I need except the Habitats, Hollows and Homes Journal. I wanted to get the ebook version but they said on facebook that you have to pay a $5 service fee if you want it on more then two devices and to have it protected. That makes it more expensive then the print addition. We are also upgrading our old laptop, so if I order before getting it that'll mess up my two allowed downloads. Maybe I should just skip the journal and use generic notebooking pages?

 

 

Have it protected??

Well, I sure wouldn't wait till I needed it to get it, kwim? It's a shame because I LOVE their notebooking pages and really, their lack of professionalism is what keeps me from buying from them again. Or at least it has.

 

 

ETA: I really like the looks of their language arts but I'm leery of not getting what I pay for when I pay for it so...

[elizabeth rose]

I bought it and thought the same, didn't get it by the next day so I emailed and asked them and they said they send them within 2 business days. But I only got part of it because they said it wasn't completed due to health issues.

 

 

 

well, that seems very unethical, to sell an ebook that has not been written!

[Mimm]

Oh! A video! I am sure that would have fixed everything! Gee, why didnt they google!?!

 

 

I know you're being sarcastic, but honestly, why didn't they google? Or read a book? Or take a class? Or attempt to educate themselves in some way about how to run a small business. It's not like the information and ideas they needed were hidden secrets that they couldn't possibly have accessed. I'm sorry but "We're small, we don't have money" doesn't really work these days. There are plenty of small businesses that manage to serve their customers in a timely manner. I don't know if I would call WP con artists but I see where the poster who did is coming from. Honestly, I'm glad to be in touch with so many homeschool moms so that I can avoid companies like WP.

[mama27]

 

 

well, that seems very unethical, to sell an ebook that has not been written!

 

I did get it. 2 months later, after I emailed again and asked for it. But they should have said something on the web site about it not being completed.

[Scrub Jay]

 

 

I did get it. 2 months later, after I emailed again and asked for it. But they should have said something on the web site about it not being completed.

 

Definitely.

[Alte Veste Academy]

I did get it. 2 months later, after I emailed again and asked for it. But they should have said something on the web site about it not being completed.

 

Not to mention that you should not have had to e-mail again to ask about it! Sheesh! When they finally completed it, you would think they would have gotten it to you ASAP with profuse apologies. I wouldn't expect it, but many companies with excellent customer service would even throw in a credit or freebie.

[kardamom]

Oh gracious.. trigger issue for me. Seriously what are you supposed to do with it? Burn it??

 

Someone explain to me how writing .."Do not resell" on the front of it is within their right if they are selling you the book?? Can you imagine if you wrote a novel or a cookbook or anything (which would be your own hard work and intellectual property) and then wrote in the front, "Do not resell". Used bookstores would laugh at you! Once you sell a book, it's the property of the person who purchased it and you do not have the right to tell them what they can or can't do with it. (Edited to add.. beyond not making copy of it to sell etc.. Obviously, but that is covered already by copyright law and not what I am talking about!)

 

Now, if you were purchasing a subscription to it, or renting it.... different story. But that's not the case here. Seriously, I don't get it.

 

Because you aren't buying a book that you are free to do with as you choose. You are buying the license to use the curriculum as long as you choose within your immediate family.

 

Are you familiar with Rosetta Stone? I haven't used it, but I understand they sell a license to use their software -- if you try to sell it to someone else when you're done with it, they can't register it and use it on their computer.

 

Have you ever purchased materials from The Calvert School? I purchased a couple enrichment courses from them, and their limitations for reuse of instructor guides is more limited than WinterPromise's. Inside the Lesson Manual it states "As set forth in the Enrollment Agreement, this lesson manual is the property of Calvert School and is leased for use only with the student enrolled." Note that I am not in their programs that provide full curriculum, or grading, or teacher oversight or monitoring in any way -- I simply purchased one of their history enrichment courses to use on my own time and schedule with one child. I certainly can't resell this course to anyone else, and supposedly they offer discounts for repurchase if you choose to teach their curriculum to younger siblings later on (!!) I don't remember the exact wording in the *enrollment agreement*, but I believe it saves me the trouble and expense of returning the guide to them after a year, by allowing me to destroy it myself.

 

It's legal to sell a license to use curriculum produced by the seller, rather than selling it as a book that can be resold.

 

As for customer service, I have purchased three complete themed programs from WinterPromise starting in 2010. Delivery was in parts and slow. I sent e-mails every couple weeks or so updating what was newly received and what was still outstanding. I eventually got everything. Some items came directly from Amazon or other book vendors.

 

Why am I still ordering from them? Because I am an advance planner, and if keeping records and sending periodic e-mails gets me my whole order -- I've been able to deal with it, even if I have a business degree and have worked in very small and very large businesses and sometimes am left scratching my head. But the main reason -- my son has loved the programs, mostly as written, although we haven't done everything on the buffet of suggested activities -- the choice of books, activities, the themes have been right up his alley. I've used another curriculum, as well as supplementary materials, that have arrived in a flash, with tremendous customer service -- but they haven't fit nearly as well.

 

My last order, I took the hint and bought the exclusives and just a few other items and got the rest from Amazon. We'll see how things go in the future. I'm hopeful that the 48-hour downloads for most of the exclusives is a step in the right direction. Since their programs work well for us, I hope they get things figured out!

[cbollin]

Because you aren't buying a book that you are free to do with as you choose. You are buying the license to use the curriculum as long as you choose within your immediate family.

 

 

 

that's the case with their digital items. and yes.. with digital, that's common thing and no one is too upset on that.. but is not exactly what people are talking about with all of this. not talking about the digital license. not talking about selling photocopies either.

 

talking about print books that were sold, not leased.

 

in their business history, WP first began requesting people not resell guides that were purchased, not leased, not license. And it was a physical book that met "first sale doctrine". They were not renting product like Calvert. and that is what upset people. Then, WP realized they weren't legal to stop that with physical books that were not being rented. so they "requested" people not do that.

 

Are you saying they have gone to Calvert style and the Print Books are now rental/lease? or are you just referring to digital issues, which are licensed? do they even have print book exclusives anymore? (gave up trying to read their website for samples. so I'm not sure either. need more coffee)

 

things do change.. but in this thread those who were upset about resell policy were talking about print books and how it was handled/mishandled back in the day when digital books at wp weren't around. if they've changed to no print version of exclusives.. then that issue is resolved for better or worse depending on random person's point of view.

 

however, some people don't want to deal with rentals either. :)

[elegantlion]

I know you're being sarcastic, but honestly, why didn't they google? Or read a book? Or take a class? Or attempt to educate themselves in some way about how to run a small business. It's not like the information and ideas they needed were hidden secrets that they couldn't possibly have accessed. I'm sorry but "We're small, we don't have money" doesn't really work these days. There are plenty of small businesses that manage to serve their customers in a timely manner. I don't know if I would call WP con artists but I see where the poster who did is coming from. Honestly, I'm glad to be in touch with so many homeschool moms so that I can avoid companies like WP.

 

 

Part of the problem is that simply being a small business doesn't mean you can acquire loans, I'm sure qualifying is harder than it was a few years ago. I've drooled over their catalog a number of times and never ordered, partially because I've heard the horror shipping stories.

 

I didn't read all of their reply, but most of the stories I've heard over the years seem to stem from lack of operating capital and poor communication.

 

I hope they get it together as people seem to like their products.

[elegantlion]

dp

[teeniebeenie6]

Because you aren't buying a book that you are free to do with as you choose. You are buying the license to use the curriculum as long as you choose within your immediate family.

 

Are you familiar with Rosetta Stone? I haven't used it, but I understand they sell a license to use their software -- if you try to sell it to someone else when you're done with it, they can't register it and use it on their computer.

 

Have you ever purchased materials from The Calvert School? I purchased a couple enrichment courses from them, and their limitations for reuse of instructor guides is more limited than WinterPromise's. Inside the Lesson Manual it states "As set forth in the Enrollment Agreement, this lesson manual is the property of Calvert School and is leased for use only with the student enrolled." Note that I am not in their programs that provide full curriculum, or grading, or teacher oversight or monitoring in any way -- I simply purchased one of their history enrichment courses to use on my own time and schedule with one child. I certainly can't resell this course to anyone else, and supposedly they offer discounts for repurchase if you choose to teach their curriculum to younger siblings later on (!!) I don't remember the exact wording in the *enrollment agreement*, but I believe it saves me the trouble and expense of returning the guide to them after a year, by allowing me to destroy it myself.

 

It's legal to sell a license to use curriculum produced by the seller, rather than selling it as a book that can be resold.

 

I'm sorry but you are simply wrong when it comes to printed material. Now with digital products you cannot resell but with printed materials you legally can. They actually state as much in their resale policy link: http://www.winterpro...le_policy.html .Here is the quote: "This is a good question. In one sense, yes, of course you own what you purchase from WinterPromise, and that ultimately gives you the technical right to resell it"

 

Edited to fix link.

[kardamom]

that's the case with their digital items. and yes.. with digital, that's common thing and no one is too upset on that.. but is not exactly what people are talking about with all of this. not talking about the digital license. not talking about selling photocopies either.

 

talking about print books that were sold, not leased.

 

in their business history, WP first began requesting people not resell guides that were purchased, not leased, not license. And it was a physical book that met "first sale doctrine". They were not renting product like Calvert. and that is what upset people. Then, WP realized they weren't legal to stop that with physical books that were not being rented. so they "requested" people not do that.

 

Are you saying they have gone to Calvert style and the Print Books are now rental/lease? or are you just referring to digital issues, which are licensed? do they even have print book exclusives anymore? (gave up trying to read their website for samples. so I'm not sure either. need more coffee)

 

things do change.. but in this thread those who were upset about resell policy were talking about print books and how it was handled/mishandled back in the day when digital books at wp weren't around. if they've changed to no print version of exclusives.. then that issue is resolved for better or worse depending on random person's point of view.

 

however, some people don't want to deal with rentals either. :)

 

I haven't purchased anything in digital format. The exclusives can still be purchased in the print form, for use for as long as you like within your family, with associated shipping charges based on size of order, and without some of the additional rights that come along with the digital forms (I believe I have also seen reference to *unless you have purchased a license for use in a homeschool co-op* -- not sure if that was in reference to print or digital).

 

But it wouldn't surprise me if WP failed to obtain legal guidance in how to structure the sale terms before they started selling their products (or use of their products as it may be).

 

I have noted that in the three print catalogs I have (starting with 2010-2011), it is stated up front what their resale policy is on exclusives, with additional information available on their website. I don't see why buying it in print negates the right to sell a product (or right to use a product) they have produced themselves with resale limitations. Would people be happier if they called it a *rental* and removed the right to continue to use the guide as long as you like or with younger family members in the future? The items I *purchased* from Calvert were simply a student workbook and an instructor guide, to go along with CHOW (the text I had already purchased from another vendor), and a similar instructor guide and spiral bound combo small text/workbook for *A Child's Study of Famous Americans*.

 

I decided not to try Calvert's full program based on the terms of their enrichment courses. I continue with WinterPromise because their products work well for us, and I had no desire to resell the exclusives. I keep records in the guides, we write in the workbooks, parts get cut up and glued in other pages or projects -- not much left to sell anyway.

 

It seems to me if the sale (or rental) terms are provided up front, people have the choice to accept them or buy elsewhere.

[kardamom]

I'm sorry but you are simply wrong when it comes to printed material. Now with digital products you cannot resell but with printed materials you legally can. They actually state as much in their resale policy link: http://www.winterpro...le_policy.html. Here is the quote: "This is a good question. In one sense, yes, of course you own what you purchase from WinterPromise, and that ultimately gives you the technical right to resell it"

 

That link didn't work for me, but a quick search took me to their website resale policy -- I noticed that it mentions that any exclusive that is *like a book* rather than a guide or workbook with reproducible pages is free to be resold.

 

It is interesting that their policy says that you are technically able to resell their exclusives, even though they may have been included *free* as part of a full package -- I guess it isn't worth the trouble to them to go through the legal terms to restrict usage by making it a *lease*?

 

So okay, if it is *legal* to resell for those who really want to sell it because they haven't structured the sale as a lease like Calvert does -- what is the gripe?

[cbollin]

 

So okay, if it is *legal* to resell for those who really want to sell it because they haven't structured the sale as a lease like Calvert does -- what is the gripe?

 

to get teeniebeanie's link to work, remove the final dot at the end that she didn't intend to hyperlink.

 

The gripe was that WP used to say the policy was you couldn't resell and made it sound like it was illegal if you did.

 

They were asking people to not resell so it wouldn't hurt their new sales. it wasn't that they "respectfully requested" it when they originally did it. But they received so much backlash for being requested to forfeit a legal right, that they rewrote the policy. They made it so that it sounded like it was illegal to resell. Then realized they couldn't say that. So they went for the "please please please.... don't do this approach"

 

I have little problem with companies pointing out that it is new sales that keep them in business. or that there shouldn't be an expectation of full service if you don't buy directly. But to use that to say you're wrong to buy or sell used? that is what I think makes most people's heads tilt. Other homeschool companies stay in business with used market.

 

and the one part of it all that I didn't like with WP's resale issues was that they understood how used market negatively impacted their business, yet on their company paid forum, they permitted people to resell any other company's "exclusives". I say either..... allow your stuff to be resold too on there... . or get rid of any used sales on your forum. If it is wrong and harmful to WP to do the used sales..... why does WP actively provide a venue to do this to other hard working, homeschool companies with their exclusives?

 

It's the history behind the current policy that is the left over bad feelings with gripes. and the uhmm.. hypocrisy of the situation with used materials on their forum. somehow it's ok for them to enable people to buy used products of other homeschool companies, but they recognize the negatives used sales has on their stuff.. hmmm...

 

does that help to understand the feelings with it all?

 

I feel like i just put myself on my own Dr J show on that part with the forum used sales thing....

[kardamom]

 

to get teeniebeanie's link to work, remove the final dot at the end that she didn't intend to hyperlink.

 

The gripe was that WP used to say the policy was you couldn't resell and made it sound like it was illegal if you did.

 

They were asking people to not resell so it wouldn't hurt their new sales. it wasn't that they "respectfully requested" it when they originally did it. But they received so much backlash for being requested to forfeit a legal right, that they rewrote the policy. They made it so that it sounded like it was illegal to resell. Then realized they couldn't say that. So they went for the "please please please.... don't do this approach"

 

I have little problem with companies pointing out that it is new sales that keep them in business. or that there shouldn't be an expectation of full service if you don't buy directly. But to use that to say you're wrong to buy or sell used? that is what I think makes most people's heads tilt. Other homeschool companies stay in business with used market.

 

and the one part of it all that I didn't like with WP's resale issues was that they understood how used market negatively impacted their business, yet on their company paid forum, they permitted people to resell any other company's "exclusives". I say either..... allow your stuff to be resold too on there... . or get rid of any used sales on your forum. If it is wrong and harmful to WP to do the used sales..... why does WP actively provide a venue to do this to other hard working, homeschool companies with their exclusives?

 

It's the history behind the current policy that is the left over bad feelings with gripes. and the uhmm.. hypocrisy of the situation with used materials on their forum. somehow it's ok for them to enable people to buy used products of other homeschool companies, but they recognize the negatives used sales has on their stuff.. hmmm...

 

does that help to understand the feelings with it all?

 

I feel like i just put myself on my own Dr J show on that part with the forum used sales thing....

 

The link took me to the same page I found by searching.

 

That history (before my time as a customer) does explain a few things -- although I believe they could have structured their no-resale policy legally, I can see they didn't do their legal homework beforehand, and the horse was already out of the barn -- structuring it legally (a la Calvert style "lease") would probably have gone over like a lead balloon after they'd already raised hackles.

 

I wonder how much that weighed in with the recent choice to go digital -- there are other *good* reasons to go digital, like solving some of their shipping hassles, cutting down on the amount of inventory they *should* carry, and some people liking e-readers and wanting customizable and fillable schedule pages -- but it also gives them a more palatable way to reintroduce legal resale limitations.

 

I don't know anything about what people resold or tried to sell on their used forum -- their forum is extremely slow, and has been most of the time I've used their products.

 

*How to do business* obviously isn't their strong point. I like the format of their curriculum packages that I have purchased though, and have spent a lot of money on other companies' products that didn't work so well for us that required a lot of tweaking, pre-reading, substitutions, and supplementing, that I would like to avoid in the future -- so I hope they get things figured out.

[LittleIzumi]

 

to get teeniebeanie's link to work, remove the final dot at the end that she didn't intend to hyperlink.

 

The gripe was that WP used to say the policy was you couldn't resell and made it sound like it was illegal if you did.

 

They were asking people to not resell so it wouldn't hurt their new sales. it wasn't that they "respectfully requested" it when they originally did it. But they received so much backlash for being requested to forfeit a legal right, that they rewrote the policy. They made it so that it sounded like it was illegal to resell. Then realized they couldn't say that. So they went for the "please please please.... don't do this approach"

 

I have little problem with companies pointing out that it is new sales that keep them in business. or that there shouldn't be an expectation of full service if you don't buy directly. But to use that to say you're wrong to buy or sell used? that is what I think makes most people's heads tilt. Other homeschool companies stay in business with used market.

 

and the one part of it all that I didn't like with WP's resale issues was that they understood how used market negatively impacted their business, yet on their company paid forum, they permitted people to resell any other company's "exclusives". I say either..... allow your stuff to be resold too on there... . or get rid of any used sales on your forum. If it is wrong and harmful to WP to do the used sales..... why does WP actively provide a venue to do this to other hard working, homeschool companies with their exclusives?

 

It's the history behind the current policy that is the left over bad feelings with gripes. and the uhmm.. hypocrisy of the situation with used materials on their forum. somehow it's ok for them to enable people to buy used products of other homeschool companies, but they recognize the negatives used sales has on their stuff.. hmmm...

 

does that help to understand the feelings with it all?

 

I feel like i just put myself on my own Dr J show on that part with the forum used sales thing....

 

 

Plus how they would say you could not even give it to someone else. If you bought it and were done, your own only option with their non-legal policy was basically to shred it. Not cool.

[Mimm]

 

 

Plus how they would say you could not even give it to someone else. If you bought it and were done, your own only option with their non-legal policy was basically to shred it. Not cool.

 

 

Especially considering what a chore they are to work with. Someone interested in trying out one of their programs then has no choice but to deal with their horrendous customer service. This seems a little at odds with their claim that they never intended to start a business and they were only wanting to help people. You know what people find helpful? The ability to save money on used curriculum. :p

[tomandlorih]

 

to get teeniebeanie's link to work, remove the final dot at the end that she didn't intend to hyperlink.

 

The gripe was that WP used to say the policy was you couldn't resell and made it sound like it was illegal if you did.

 

They were asking people to not resell so it wouldn't hurt their new sales. it wasn't that they "respectfully requested" it when they originally did it. But they received so much backlash for being requested to forfeit a legal right, that they rewrote the policy. They made it so that it sounded like it was illegal to resell. Then realized they couldn't say that. So they went for the "please please please.... don't do this approach"

 

I have little problem with companies pointing out that it is new sales that keep them in business. or that there shouldn't be an expectation of full service if you don't buy directly. But to use that to say you're wrong to buy or sell used? that is what I think makes most people's heads tilt. Other homeschool companies stay in business with used market.

 

and the one part of it all that I didn't like with WP's resale issues was that they understood how used market negatively impacted their business, yet on their company paid forum, they permitted people to resell any other company's "exclusives". I say either..... allow your stuff to be resold too on there... . or get rid of any used sales on your forum. If it is wrong and harmful to WP to do the used sales..... why does WP actively provide a venue to do this to other hard working, homeschool companies with their exclusives?

 

It's the history behind the current policy that is the left over bad feelings with gripes. and the uhmm.. hypocrisy of the situation with used materials on their forum. somehow it's ok for them to enable people to buy used products of other homeschool companies, but they recognize the negatives used sales has on their stuff.. hmmm...

 

does that help to understand the feelings with it all?

 

I feel like i just put myself on my own Dr J show on that part with the forum used sales thing....

 

 

 

Plus how they would say you could not even give it to someone else. If you bought it and were done, your own only option with their non-legal policy was basically to shred it. Not cool.

 

 

AND.. according to the policy at the time, you couldn't even make copies for use within your own family! Oops, 3 kids?? Sorry, buy 3 of them then. They have dropped that policy.

[Shellydon]

Very thoughtful response this morning:

 

Mary, the request to talk with you was not intended to reflect a need for privacy, but instead was born out of a desire to reach out to you personally. We have shared specifics both publicly and privately, and with families affected by delays over the past couple of years. It sounds like you may not have been one that we shared with, and that you missed some of the venues in which we've shared publicly. It is not our intent not to acknowledge problems. We really do try to help our families, and have no desire not to acknowledge issues that affect them. In fact, many of our customers have heard directly from us the information below. We're happy to share this information again here.

 

As to specifics of shipping issues, the problem traces back to how WP started and how we grew. WP was at a critical point in our growth, growing almost too fast thanks to the internet, when the economy took a turn, and the credit crunch affected many small businesses. This critical point couldn't have happened at a worse time for WP, a company in need of capital to keep pace with too-fast overgrowth. At the same time, the economy also created an environment where many of our book suppliers reduced credit lines to smaller companies or quit offering them entirely. Many book companies also stopped publishing educational titles they saw as bringing in less revenue. This created delays in getting books out to families for both reasons -- shipment turnaround and out-of-print books. This affected us as a smaller company in different ways than it would affect larger, established homeschool curriculum providers, that can demand a 5,000-book print run on out-of-print books.

 

Additionally, when a business does most of its business inside four months of the year, slow shipment turnaround is a problem that compounds itself. In the climate of the credit crunch, capital simply wasn't available for unproven "dot-com" businesses. We've always been the first ones to admit that we had a lot to learn as to how to remedy a problem that was not as simple as it appeared on the surface. At this point it may be helpful to know how our business started.

 

We never intended to start a business -- people just started asking us for the curriculum Kaeryn wrote. The next year they all insisted on next year's curriculum, and we went crazy online! Without a business background, without capital behind us, and without foreknowledge of a crisis in the economy, we agreed. We had no idea how our fast growth would impact WinterPromise when the economy soured. We just wanted to help people who wanted our curriculum. That's all. That may help families understand the quandry of our small business.

 

Left without avenues to get the capital that would have quickly solved the problem once and for all, we had to make decisions to do the things we could do. We had to attack the problem on a number of fronts, and remember, without a business background -- we had to learn as we went. Some things worked, others didn't. One thing we look back on and wished we could change was that we wished we hadn't expanded how many programs we offered in those first few years, even though our families were begging for them. But hindsight is always 20/20, right?

 

Over the last several years, we have done everything we could to change our families' experiences. We have installed processes to order from vendors with a faster turnaround, and, whenever possible, deal with vendors who work better with our small business. We began publishing more of our own titles to protect against the unavailability of key titles that would affect a program the most. We now publish well over 130 of our own exclusive resources, resources we strive to make better than any title we might otherwise use. We have restructured our programs and sets so that we deal less (or not at allt) with vendors that are unstable or don't keep books in print. We have also changed how we sell adventure reading, and readers to streamline the turnaround and shipping process in-house for our customers and give them more options. And, we've also begun selling ebooks, which are delivered same day or within 24-48 hours of ordering to give parents a "right away" option in getting started with guides and other exclusives. Plus, we are offering smaller package options for parents who'd prefer to get some books elsewhere, borrow them, or utilize the library.

 

We began to see the fruits of all of those efforts coming together last year. We had fewer problems than ever before, and we are in a place now with WinterPromise that we have never been before. If you didn't order last year, you may not have seen that improvement first hand, and the times a company does well just don't make it as often to the internet, unfortunately. Some WP families may not even be aware that there were problems in the past as they have not encountered them first-hand themselves.

 

To answer the specific issues you brought up, no -- we do not print our exclusives on demand. As to ordering from Amazon, we have utilized Amazon in very minor ways, not to ship to us and then to you, but to fulfill orders that presented specific issues. For instance, when publishers run low on a title that is going out of print, Amazon typically has a backstock of those books that we can purchase to meet the needs of our families. There have been times when a vendor is shipping slowly, or shuts down their facility for holidays, etc., that we have shipped to a customer from Amazon because it was in the customer's best interest to do so. They would have the book faster if we went that route. Sometimes it is more cost-effective for us to send a book or two along with the original book because of how their shipping is structured. And the package is always shipped directly to our families from Amazon for the sake of speed -- it is never sent to WP and then sent on. It was never in WinterPromise's best interest to buy from Amazon. It was always to help our families. Because of the work we've done to eliminate problem titles, very few titles come from Amazon.

 

This year our parents should see a marked improvement again. Success (and our own hard-won experience in the trenches) does build on itself, and we hope that this explanation helps people understand both the complexity of the problem, and how diligently we have worked to make changes that would make a difference to our families.

 

Above all, we have sought to offer superior customer service so that every time you speak to us, we treat your concerns as very important to us. We truly care about our families, and it is our desire to continue to improve our service for you.

 

 

 

I very nearly this exact letter from them 2 years ago when another of my orders was late and had many missing items. I ordered from them for 3 years before I gave up. Things were very late and I often would leave 10 or more messages before someone got back to me. I have ordered from countless other companies and never had issues like I did with WP. They always blame growth, but I think the owners are just scattered and don't know that they are doing. I choose not to order from them at all any more.

[Sahamamama]

It just occurred to me that it is a common theme in WP threads that they are always so nice. There are almost always problems, but when people call they are soooo nice. And today, reading that for the gazillionth time, a thought dawned on me. Know who else is always so nice? Con artists. Seriously, I am starting to wonder, because there is no way they don't know what their reputation is in 2013. And yet...

 

I think it is an act. I bet they have read the negative threads, here and elsewhere. Even if they haven't, they have certainly received enough irate phone calls and e-mails that they couldn't possibly be unaware of their problems with order fulfillment. I think they feign ignorance. Really, I do. And their behavior is completely inexcusable. It is a wonder that they are still on business!

 

I personally think feigning ignorance about abysmal customer service while continuing to take people's hard-earned money for products that are not on hand for shipment is absolutely a con. Telling people repeatedly that their product or missing parts of their product will be shipped out shortly and then not shipping them out is a con. Nice folks or not.

 

Part of the problem with the slow shipping is that it totally ruins their return policy. By the time I received all the materials and could make a good judgement over whether the program would work for us, the return period had run out. We did not order at crunch time. We ordered in early spring (though that may be busy too, with people using their tax returns).

 

 

Putting this together, perhaps the "shipping problem" is intentional. AVA, you may be on to something?

[Sahamamama]

Think of it as a restaurant. If you always got bad service, you'd eat somewhere else, and be happier for it.

 

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

[Anne in CA]

In this economy I am always stunned when business owners do not feel protective of their customers. It is unfortunately part of the problem with this economy. I believe that part of the problem the economy has been so bad is that people feel entitled to success, and do not deal with people in a way they would like to be dealt with themselves. I had a problem with a home school company a few years ago and they were quite indignant about being questioned. The simply did not understand that they have a business and are open to scrutiny of the customer the minute they take money from a customer.

[Scrub Jay]

 

OTOH, I bought the print version of the equine science program at the same time (only the exclusives) and that came just fine. I have to say I don't think there is any other horse program out there right now that matches this for horse loving kids. My dd had already read all the books in Beautiful Feet's horse program, and it doesn't have the depth of information this one does. So, I would say it's the one WP program I would still recommend, becauses it's worth the hassle, and since it's only the two exclusives you need from them, it's harder for it to be screwed up.

 

 

And this is why I will still likely buy from them when the time comes. Which won't be for about a year so I will be keeping an eye on any developments.

[Alessandra]

I very nearly this exact letter from them 2 years ago when another of my orders was late and had many missing items.

 

So this big, positive change in their business has been going on for two years?

 

ETA: When I asked about the rest of my EBOOK (that did not have to be shipped) I was told it would be finished in about 2 weeks. 2 MONTHS later I emailed again asking for it. They did send it, but why did I have to email them and ask for something I'd already paid for? Do they keep hand-written records on their fridge or something?? Don't thhey have computers?

 

Wow.

 

I'm the one who ultimately made the choice, so I can't blame them for that, but I almost immediately regretted it. Between the costs being the same as for print versions and the addition of a "digital licensing fee", it seemed like a bit of a rip off when I wasn't getting a physical product.... I have to put the password in each and every time I open each item on my iPad.... It was also a pain downloading everything, because it's not sent right away, and when it was, the links were set to expire after a short while. It just seems they are way over paranoid about someone stealing something, to the detriment of actual customers who have paid for something.

 

I wish they could hand off their products to another company to manage it all for them. They have good products, they just don't have a business that works.

 

Ouch to the first part of your post.

 

Brilliant to the second part.

[tomandlorih]

hmm.. why can't I delete this? Help files say I should have a delete button option next to edit and I do not? odd.

[welovetoread]

"Also, can you please tell me how your shipping works? I've heard some not so good stories about not getting items etc." I noticed they responded to the post above and below hers but ignored her. That really bothers me. So I agree with you about feigning ignorance.

 

I was the one who posted that question. I got an email saying they were making changes etc. My going to be 6th grader wants to use equine science, I'm afraid to order it.