Is Downton Abbey realistic, relationships with servants?

[LNC]

Carson seems to be the most realistic, but they depict him as "old fashioned."

 

Would the servants really be invited to the Ghillies Ball and dance with everyone else?

[Jane in NC]

A gillie is a fishing/hunting guide. If the Queen invites her staff to a Gillie's Ball when she is in her Highland residence, I suspect others do as well.

[Harriet Vane]

There were occasions where servants and family would mix, but it would have been a once-a-year kind of thing or at a village cricket match kinda thing.

 

All the talking between servants and family is absolutely, totally unrealistic. It drives me completely crazy. The one exception is that mistresses did often become quite attached to their personal lady's maid.

[NotSoObvious]

I just met a woman last night who actually studied this era in depth in graduate school.

 

She said the show is so innacurate, she can't watch it.

[Laura Corin]

 

 

All the talking between servants and family is absolutely, totally unrealistic. It drives me completely crazy. The one exception is that mistresses did often become quite attached to their personal lady's maid.

 

 

And sometimes gentlemen to their personal manservant.

 

Laura

[Georgiana Daniels]

I just met a woman last night who actually studied this era in depth in graduate school.

 

She said the show is so innacurate, she can't watch it.

 

 

Did she have any specifics? Curious.

[LNC]

I just met a woman last night who actually studied this era in depth in graduate school.

 

She said the show is so innacurate, she can't watch it.

Interestjng.

 

I order the Lady Almina book, I would love other recs with a more accurate depiction.

[NotSoObvious]

 

 

Did she have any specifics? Curious.

 

She only watched the first three episodes, but she said the entire way the entail (sp?) was handled was made for TV. Apparently it would have been a much bigger deal and not something that mom and grandma would dink around with like it was gossip. Something to that effect.

 

I thought she was a party pooper. I don't care if it's innacurate. ;)

[NotSoObvious]

Oh yeah, and she had a problem with the scene where they talk about the butler needing something to do, so the cousin "allowed" him to dress him.

 

I was trying not to listen... I like the show!

[stripe]

 

Interestjng.

 

I order the Lady Almina book, I would love other recs with a more accurate depiction.

Lady Almina is interesting but doesn't discuss anything much about servants. The book you want is Below Stairs by Margaret Powell.

 

The idea that the family is worried about the servants' problems and busy discussing how to help them at dinner is so ridiculous. I have a love/hate relationship with the show.

 

http://www.weta.org/tv/picks/downtonabbey/history/season3

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/downton-abbey/8868732/Downton-Abbey-historical-inaccuracies-and-mistakes-plaguing-ITV-show.html

[Orthodox6]

. The book you want is Below Stairs by Margaret Powell.

 

:iagree: I don't/won't watch this television series; however, I just finished reading Powell's book. I'm disappointed that I cannot obtain a copy of her follow up book, Climbing the Stairs, I think it is called. She writes with unintended comedy and unvarnished truthfulness. She clearly was a highly intelligent woman. Sat for her education exams during her late fifties, and always was a self-educated reader of good books.

[stripe]

 

 

:iagree: I don't/won't watch this television series; however, I just finished reading Powell's book. I'm disappointed that I cannot obtain a copy of her follow up book, Climbing the Stairs, I think it is called. She writes with unintended comedy and unvarnished truthfulness. She clearly was a highly intelligent woman. Sat for her education exams during her late fifties, and always was a self-educated reader of good books.

They have used copies on amazon, if all else fails. Not sure about at bookdepository.com . I didn't realize she wrote other books! I am going to find them. Thanks for posting about them.

[higginszoo]

Even in the 1990s as a household servant (nanny), my relationship with the family was not particularly chummy. They really were 'bring them down at 6:00 if we're not otherwise occupied so we can pat them on the head and send them back' parents, and unless there was an issue, they really never talked to me, either. They had no idea what was going on in my personal life, that's for sure.

[Orthodox6]

They have used copies on amazon, if all else fails. Not sure about at bookdepository.com . I didn't realize she wrote other books! I am going to find them. Thanks for posting about them.

 

 

When I glanced at Amazon last night, my eyes landed only on the UK providers, which would not be helpful. Just now I noticed several US purveyors of used/new copies. If one of those has a high enough service rating, I'll spring for a copy!

 

I bought the one book in the first place because one of the local Barnes & Noble stores had a large end-of-aisle display of books calculated to engage the interest of "Downton Abbey" fans. Both Below Stairs and one other book by Powell (about someone other than herself) were among the choices.

[Jean in Newcastle]

Even in the 1990s as a household servant (nanny), my relationship with the family was not particularly chummy. They really were 'bring them down at 6:00 if we're not otherwise occupied so we can pat them on the head and send them back' parents, and unless there was an issue, they really never talked to me, either. They had no idea what was going on in my personal life, that's for sure.

 

 

Me too - one lady I worked for as a cook called me "Girl" the entire time I worked there. And no, I never added anything to her food.

[stripe]

When I glanced at Amazon last night, my eyes landed only on the UK providers, which would not be helpful. Just now I noticed several US purveyors of used/new copies. If one of those has a high enough service rating, I'll spring for a copy!

 

I bought the one book in the first place because one of the local Barnes & Noble stores had a large end-of-aisle display of books calculated to engage the interest of "Downton Abbey" fans. Both Below Stairs and one other book by Powell (about someone other than herself) were among the choices.

 

The UK providers will ship the US for the same $3.99 shipping, normally. I've done this before. I found out my library has the second one, so I've already requested it!

[FaithManor]

I think it's bunk. My mother's mom was from a family of 17 children in the 1920's. Many of the girls had to quit school before the 8th grade and work as maids in order to help the family survive. They were treated quite horribly.

 

Faith

[butterflymommy]

I have a friend who is british, and he says there is no way on god's green earth that an upperclass family would be cozy with their servants as depicted in DA. There's also no way they would shrug off thomas being gay (i.e. mrs hughes saying "well it's not like we didn't suspect/ he's not the first one to be like that"). Men were often jailed for homosexuality back then so it's just not realistic.

[Rebecca VA]

Wait -- so it was all right for upper-class men to have homosexual liasons, but not all right for the help to do so?

 

The Duke in the first episode of season 1 was hardly the only gay member of the nobility. I've read that a couple of Queen Elizabeth's uncles were that way, and there were many others in the upper levels of British society.

 

But a footman would get booted out for it?

[higginszoo]

Wait -- so it was all right for upper-class men to have homosexual liasons, but not all right for the help to do so?

 

The Duke in the first episode of season 1 was hardly the only gay member of the nobility. I've read that a couple of Queen Elizabeth's uncles were that way, and there were many others in the upper levels of British society.

 

But a footman would get booted out for it?

 

Thus was the way of the social classes. It's possible that a Duke would suffer some social repercussions, but it was ruin for the lower classes. Not fair, but the way things were. This would have been true not only of orientation but of all sorts of other things. I had a great uncle who couldn't get a job because of strabismus .... he could actually see well, but just his appearance was enough.

[cassiemc]

My grandmother is English. She warned me not to think that the show is factual. She told me that her Aunt still cried as an old lady when she talked about her time as a house maid. That being said, my Nanny does watch the show.

[butterflymommy]

Wait -- so it was all right for upper-class men to have homosexual liasons, but not all right for the help to do so?

 

Oscar Wilde spent time in jail for gay activity... so not just the lower class.

[momtoamiracle]

I don't care if it's factual, I like it that they portray them as caring to their house servants. Maybe not true to life, but it's more humane. Who needs factual? Now if it were a historical drama portrayed that would be different. I couldn't watch the Other Boleyn Girl because it was so wrong.

[butterflymommy]

I don't care if it's factual, I like it that they portray them as caring to their house servants. Maybe not true to life, but it's more humane. Who needs factual? Now if it were a historical drama portrayed that would be different. I couldn't watch the Other Boleyn Girl because it was so wrong.

 

What is Downton Abbey, if not a historical drama? The setting, current event references, opening with the titanic sinking no less, WW I, women's rights, workers' rights, etc.,-- all historical.

[dangermom]

Oscar Wilde spent time in jail for gay activity... so not just the lower class.

Yeah, but he was kind of a special case. He wouldn't have gone to jail if he hadn't insisted on suing his lover's father for libel, when the 'libel' was that he was gay, which he in fact was, and then it was proven in court. So then they pretty much had to send him to jail to uphold public morality, not to mention he wasn't that popular anyway. If Wilde hadn't sued, he would never have gone to jail. (I'm not saying it was right, on several levels, but that was the system. And this is a quick summary--look up the details.)

 

Anyway, the upper classes got away with all kinds of things that would get a servant thrown out into the streets, yep. Edith (oh heck, is that her name? the maid) is a sort-of (prettified) example. It was entirely common for a houseowner, or his son, to force a maid to submit to his importunities. Then she'd get thrown out to starve when she got pregnant, and indeed prostitution was often the only way to survive. If you lost your job without a reference, that was the end of you.

[momtoamiracle]

 

What is Downton Abbey, if not a historical drama? The setting, current event references, opening with the titanic sinking no less, WW I, women's rights, workers' rights, etc.,-- all historical.

 

but it is not based on real people's lives is it? The setting is in a certain time period so these people are affected by the world's situations, but the people themselves are not real historical figures. So it doesn't matter, to me, how they treat their servants. Besides the fact, there POSSIBLY could have been an exception to the rules of the time. Remember Lady Grantham is American. She might not have the same views as other English gentry.

 

 

I honestly couldn't watch a show where servants are treated like dogs. I know it was the scenario back then, but it still bothers me greatly. I didn't like the book Nanny Diaries because of how badly the nanny was treated.

[LucyStoner]

My friend who is a historian of the period says that like a lot of dramas the unrealistic nature comes from the fact that all of this is happening to and in the same family. Yes, a few people did marry outside their class (I have a friend whose great-grandmother did pretty much what Sybil did- only they later moved to the States to escape the fallout). Yes, some people did have sexual scandals and live through them even if they leaked out. Yes, some people looked the other way when they saw a gay person. Yes, some people were kind to certain household servants and formed a very deep connection. It's just that it's all happening in the same family that makes it so ridiculously unrealistic. These things didn't happen in most situations.

 

The most realistic thing is that a fair number of the daughters of newly wealthy Americans like Cora did go to England to marry into the upperclass when they couldn't crack into the upper echelon of American society. Winston Churchill's mother was one American wife to an upper class British man. ETA: Also realistic is that many of these families went broke around or just after these times.

[LucyStoner]

 

 

I honestly couldn't watch a show where servants are treated like dogs. I know it was the scenario back then, but it still bothers me greatly. I didn't like the book Nanny Diaries because of how badly the nanny was treated.

 

The maid with the baby from the dead upper class soldier- his parents wouldn't help the baby unless she gave him up to them. Their attitudes towards the single mother were pretty callous and historically accurate.

[Laura Corin]

 

Oscar Wilde spent time in jail for gay activity... so not just the lower class.

 

Oscar Wilde sued his accuser for libel. The accusations could well have died out otherwise. It's important to note also that his accuser (the father of his boyfriend) was an aristocrat whilst Wilde was the son of an eminent Irish doctor.

 

Laura

[lailasmum]

Have you guys that love Downton Abbey seen Gosford Park? It's written by Julian Fellowes and Downton is a sort of spin off (although Downton is set earlier). It's done from the point of view of the servants.

[LucyStoner]

Have you guys that love Downton Abbey seen Gosford Park? It's written by Julian Fellowes and Downton is a sort of spin off (although Downton is set earlier). It's done from the point of view of the servants.

 

I have tried to sit through Gosford Park twice to no real avail. The first time, it was when my now husband, then boyfriend went to see it in the theater. Neither of us was especially interested after the first 15 minutes. We ended up spending most of the movie kissing. Juvenile, but the theater was nearly empty, we were in the back and we were after all basically juveniles. :001_wub:

 

The second time was on DVD a couple of years later. I figured I should give it a fair shake and maybe we'd disliked it because we had other things we wanted to do more. Same deal, 15 minutes in, I was up and doing something else. I ended up reading a book while mostly ignoring it.

 

All I could think was "why is this supposed to be interesting?"

[lailasmum]

 

I have tried to sit through Gosford Park twice to no real avail. The first time, it was when my now husband, then boyfriend went to see it in the theater. Neither of us was especially interested after the first 15 minutes. We ended up spending most of the movie kissing. Juvenile, but the theater was nearly empty, we were in the back and we were after all basically juveniles. :001_wub:

 

The second time was on DVD a couple of years later. I figured I should give it a fair shake and maybe we'd disliked it because we had other things we wanted to do more. Same deal, 15 minutes in, I was up and doing something else. I ended up reading a book while mostly ignoring it.

 

All I could think was "why is this supposed to be interesting?"

 

I must admit I didn't like it either but I don't like Downton.

[LucyStoner]

I must admit I didn't like it either but I don't like Downton.

 

It took me the second season to realize that I don't either.

[TravelingChris]

My mother grew up in an estate. She used to tell me how life was there- not in Britain but I am sure it was similar. Now I have not seen Downton Abbey but I gather people are inquiring about the mingling of classes. They mingled some as children. My mother had a series of governesses, all from different countries so the kids would learn new languages. She only saw her own parents briefly each day, if that. They did not marry the help. Also the help had their own areas of expertise and did not countenance whims of the children= one of my mother's younger sisters was chased out of the kitchen by the chef wielding a chef's knife since she had gone in their to nose about. The chef was not fired and I expect my aunt was chastised. I really doubt that conversations were had about the help's problems except as it related to employment issues.

[plansrme]

 

The most realistic thing is that a fair number of the daughters of newly wealthy Americans like Cora did go to England to marry into the upperclass when they couldn't crack into the upper echelon of American society. Winston Churchill's mother was one American wife to an upper class British man. ETA: Also realistic is that many of these families went broke around or just after these times.

 

 

See also, The Buccaneers! No idea how realistic the novel was, but it is older and, therefore, presumably more trustworthy, than DA. It was made into a fun movie or mini-series (remember those?) a few years back.

 

Terri

[lailasmum]

I might ask my elderly neighbour a bit about this. We live in the grounds of a mansion house that was occupied up until about the mid 1950s I think. My neighbour grew up in the servants houses that are behind the main house so I think her parents must have worked there.

 

From what I've read a lot of the maids jobs were horrendous with dreadful working conditions and extremely long hours. There wasn't much thought put into the welfare of the girls and women in these jobs, they would have been pretty easy to replace.

[EmilyK]

Second the recommendation of the Buccaneers. It was really a well done British production and focused on the phenomenon of daughters of wealthy American industrialists marrying British aristocrats. Great cast. I assume the book is even better, but I haven't read it.

 

Re Gosford Park -- I loved it, but it is very much in the style of other Robert Altman movies, which I like. Have you seen others by him that you liked better, or maybe you were expecting a less documentary style?