DragonFaerie Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Guess my son'll eventually sue me for his stinky spelling grade some day, huh? Lehigh University student got a C+ and now seeks $1.3 million in lawsuit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 What got me the most out of this whole thing is that her education was free to begin with since her dad works for the university. So, she gets a free education and then sues for a bad grade. Unbelievable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 She will probably win the case with the way the system rewards whiners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tearose Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Can I just say that I am, unfortunately, not surprised at all that it's come to this? One of these days, colleges and universities are going have incoming students sign waivers regarding grades. Some students will go to huge lengths to get their grades changed, appealing to department chairs, deans, you name it. I found that most were deterred when I told them that a re-grade of a paper could mean that the grade stayed the same, went up, or went down (if I found an error or problem I had missed the first time around. But there are always a few who are very persistent (and insistent). Makes me kind of glad I don't teach college students anymore ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UrbanSue Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 My dh is a university professor and his anxiety level is very, very high at grade time. It's so sad how severe reactions can be to bad grades. He's never dealt with anything like this, thankfully, and he makes use of every support/flagging system available. But it is absolutely nuts what students feel they are entitled to these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elinor Everywhere Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Amazing. When I was in college a nun called my dad and told him I hadn't been in class for 2 weeks (sad, but true). I had stress dreams about for years, so hey, I think I'll sue the school! Sure beats taking the responsibility for not attending class! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 What I don't understand is how the legal system allows it. Why didn't the judge throw out this piece of ca-ca lawsuit? This is the epitome of frivolous and self-serving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyDays Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 The world has become a bizarre place. I get really tired of everything thinking the world owes them something. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 If the article is correct -- good grief. My husband used to flunk students at his former university but he had solid proof they didn't do well. They were usually partiers who didn't show up for class. Here is one of his stories that always makes me laugh. A young love bird couple missed the final exam so dh told them they could make it up -- no problem. (Naturally, they were both too sick to make it to the final.) So... the young man came in first and took it -- bombed it -- no surprise to dh because the kid rarely showed up. Then the young lady came in to take it and had the audacity to complain to dh's secretary that it wasn't the same test! She then said that she forget she had to pick up her father from the airport and left abruptly. LOL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Glancing through the linked article, I would want to see why the professor gave her a ZERO for participation. Did the student not show up? Was there any sort of formal warning given to her? There seems to me like there is more to the story, KWIM? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kitten18 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MBM Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Can I just say that I am, unfortunately, not surprised at all that it's come to this? One of these days, colleges and universities are going have incoming students sign waivers regarding grades. Some students will go to huge lengths to get their grades changed, appealing to department chairs, deans, you name it. I found that most were deterred when I told them that a re-grade of a paper could mean that the grade stayed the same, went up, or went down (if I found an error or problem I had missed the first time around. But there are always a few who are very persistent (and insistent). Makes me kind of glad I don't teach college students anymore ... My college roommate from my freshman year had a merit scholarship that paid for a good chunk of her tuition. Instead of studying, she partied a bit too much and ended up losing her scholarship. Her GPA was something like 1.5. Anyway, she tried to steal one of her final exams so that she could change her answers -- and blame the prof! Unbelievable. It didn't work and she ended up leaving that school and going elsewhere; however, nowadays she claims to be a graduate of the school that kicked her out, so I guess in her mind she is still an alum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativish Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Glancing through the linked article, I would want to see why the professor gave her a ZERO for participation. Did the student not show up? Was there any sort of formal warning given to her? There seems to me like there is more to the story, KWIM? That stuck out to me as well, even with the profanity and crying... a zero?? I would understand an F but ZERO would be not attending class at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane in NC Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 As a former college mathematics instructor, I cannot tell you the number of times students described their previous grades as something professors did to them. Students do not say I earned a C rather they were "given" a C as though grades are dispensed by whim. Of course, math profs are all meanies, as we all know. To Crimson Mom--I agree that the 0 seems odd but frankly I can't see class participation having that much of a bearing in a graduate course. My graduate school grades were primarily based on exams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 On the other hand, if someone charges me around $50,000 a year to attend their school, I might feel entitled too. That's insane. She went for free because her dad works for the university. According to the article, not only did she attend free of charge but they gave her a paid job while attending school as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyDays Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 On the other hand, if someone charges me around $50,000 a year to attend their school, I might feel entitled too. That's insane. Yes, that's a staggering amount... but she didn't pay it. She attended for free because her dad is a professor there. Which may cause her to feel entitled as well, but if it were me? I think I'd work my tush off to "earn" my spot there and be grateful I wasn't graduating with a boatload of student loans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kewb Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 It sounds frivolous on the surface but if she was truly conspired against then she is right to sue. If her allegations are true it does not matter that her tuition was free and that she worked at the university. That does not negate being the victim of a crime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reflections Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Glancing through the linked article, I would want to see why the professor gave her a ZERO for participation. Did the student not show up? Was there any sort of formal warning given to her? There seems to me like there is more to the story, KWIM? There has to be! Lehigh’s lawyers allege that Thode’s behavior in class was not acceptable for someone seeking a master’s degree in counseling. On at least one occasion, they said, she used profanity in class. Another time, she broke down crying. She used profanity in class?? Like what? And she cried in class? Why? Is this the class in question?? If so, than clearly she participated, maybe just not like they wanted her too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunnyDays Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 It sounds frivolous on the surface but if she was truly conspired against then she is right to sue. If her allegations are true it does not matter that her tuition was free and that she worked at the university. That does not negate being the victim of a crime. No, of course it doesn't. We were responding to the comment that the university charges high tuition, that's all. However, it seems farfetched that she was a victim of a crime here. Obviously none of us know the whole story, and I'd like to think that there must be something to it since the legal system took it on. But a grade you earn in a university class (even if the professor doesn't like you)... well, it's hard to say that's a criminal offense. She wasn't promised that she would get through the program, you know?? Many people who start graduate programs don't finish because they do not make the cut at a certain level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeganCupcake Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 It sounds frivolous on the surface but if she was truly conspired against then she is right to sue. If her allegations are true it does not matter that her tuition was free and that she worked at the university. That does not negate being the victim of a crime. I agree. The title of the article sensationalizes the situation. Ultimately, I think we should be grateful that students have recourse if they are somehow the victims of discrimination or improper action on the part of the university. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 It seems to me that if the school was out to discriminate against someone, they wouldn't choose the child of a professor. I find it hard to consider a student getting free tuition (not to mention the work she was able to do at another university, again for free) AND a job and earning a C+ as a victim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativish Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Another article... Lehigh University professor, sued by student over poor grade, insists C-plus is appropriate At the time, the now Lehigh professor wasn't a professor but a student-teacher. Megan supposedly attended and participated in every class and received 0/25 participation points. Northampton County judge rules there's enough evidence in suit over student's poor grade to move forward Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 The young woman wanted her degree so she could become a professional counselor. It sounds to me like she needs a counselor, not that she should have become one. This happened in 2009, and she's suing NOW? For over a million dollars? If anyone is a criminal here, it's that young woman. She's trying to extort money out of the university because she made some poor life choices, and now she's bitter and wants to blame someone else. I'm not buying her story for a minute. If she had truly been wronged, she should have taken action immediately, not years later. And it's not like she wouldn't have understood what to do, because her father was a professor at the same university. I'm sorry if others may disagree, but I'm calling liar, liar, pants on fire for this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 Yeah, I'm still not buying that this girl was wronged. It sounds to me like she and the professor butted heads and that she (the student) did not behave appropriately in class. Just having your butt in the chair does NOT equal appropriate participation in class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I'm inclined to side with the school here. Sure, there can always be more to the story. However, this girl is the daughter of a professor, she was getting a free ride, and she had a paid job with the university. In a sense, she already enjoyed a higher status at this school, and while it may not be fair, that kind of status usually affords a bit of "protection" to students. I can imagine that her professor for the class in question thought long and hard before giving her a grade that would essentially end her desired academic/career track. I doubt this was done lightly, and can't imagine why the school would open themselves up to a lawsuit by doing it maliciously and with no grounds. Her behavior in class, if accurately represented, paints her as someone unfit to become a counselor. It said that the class in question was a "fieldwork" class. Fieldwork in this sense generally means working as a counselor under supervision in some real-world setting. So if she was using profanity and breaking down in tears while completing her fieldwork - which possibly means she was acting this way around clients/patients - that would potentially be enough to warrant a "0" for participation. It's not just all about academic performance. Her "fit" for the job is certainly relevant in this case, and that's what fieldwork tends to suss out. I freely admit that I think most lawsuits against universities are B.S. In this case, I definitely think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Yeah, I'm still not buying that this girl was wronged. It sounds to me like she and the professor butted heads and that she (the student) did not behave appropriately in class. Just having your butt in the chair does NOT equal appropriate participation in class. I agree. And she's suing for the difference in the amount of money she would have made as a counselor with a masters degree, vs that of a person with a bachelor's degree. Except that she went ahead and completed a different master's degree program at the same university. So she has a masters, just not that particular one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joker Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Now I agree with the school even more. One of those linked articles states the teacher warned the girl and gave her a letter with steps she needed to take to get the grade she needed. It sounds like the girl wanted to be given the grade but not work on her own behavior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catwoman Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Now I agree with the school even more. One of those linked articles states the teacher warned the girl and gave her a letter with steps she needed to take to get the grade she needed. It sounds like the girl wanted to be given the grade but not work on her own behavior. I missed that! Now I am even more convinced that she's nothing more than a self-entitled brat trying to make a quick buck. She probably figured she deserved special treatment because her father was a professor and because she was there on a free ride. I'm glad the professor is sticking to her guns and that the university is supporting her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrseshaw Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 My dh is a university prof at a large private $40k tuition/yr school. you would not believe how many emails he gets from students after a quarterly exam and even after the final exams and term grades have been posted flat out asking for a higher letter grade! Most of those emails include something along the lines of "I deserve" and never mentions of "I earned". Dh teaches upper level junior/seniors and graduate students, so thankfully he doesn't have the student's PARENTS calling him asking for higher grades for their children like his colleagues do who teach intro/freshman level courses! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Yup. It's been going through my faculty email lists lately. Every year 2-3 professors are sued at the community college where I work, so I run things "by the book" and document everything. Last semester a student filed a grievance against me for grade discrimination because they or the system (???) supposedly lost a number of their computer files, I gave them a zero for those assignments because I never received the files. So I had to prepare all of my documentation and make sure that I had done everything 100% towards this student. In the end, they were a no-show at the hearing. And no, I didn't get paid for all of the work I had to do to prepare. And I'm hoping that a lawyer doesn't come after me next. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenmom5 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Can I just say that I am, unfortunately, not surprised at all that it's come to this? One of these days, colleges and universities are going have incoming students sign waivers regarding grades. Some students will go to huge lengths to get their grades changed, appealing to department chairs, deans, you name it. I found that most were deterred when I told them that a re-grade of a paper could mean that the grade stayed the same, went up, or went down (if I found an error or problem I had missed the first time around. But there are always a few who are very persistent (and insistent). Makes me kind of glad I don't teach college students anymore ... I've a friend who gets the same thing. not sure if she's teaching middle school or high school currently. only - it's the parents hauling in lawyers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest inoubliable Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Really sick of the Special Snowflake Syndrome. If you make shitty life choices, you clean up your own mess. Especially if you're living in and participating in an adult world as an adult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lisbeth Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Glancing through the linked article, I would want to see why the professor gave her a ZERO for participation. Did the student not show up? Was there any sort of formal warning given to her? There seems to me like there is more to the story, KWIM? I agree, especially when you read that she and three other students had complained about the professor and the advisor before this happened. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativish Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Judge decides quickly after request to dismiss Lehigh lawsuit over C+ grade The ZERO is still bothering me. Maybe she is a spoiled brat, but that isn't a reason to give a zero and prevent her from continuing on in the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 However, it seems farfetched that she was a victim of a crime here. But that is exactly what the suit claims. It claims she was sexually harrassed and that they attempted to force her out of the graduate program (which could be construed as fraud, because even though she didn't pay she did invest time and effort and miss the opportunity to go elsewhere, I think it's a stretch but I could see someone making the arguement). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Those of you bothered by the zero for participation. I would think in a graduate course appropriate participation should not have to be spelled out. It sounds to me like her behavior in class was not contributing appropriately, but rather disrupting. You don't get points for showing up in grad school. And this is a counseling program. I see no reason why one could not expect "appropriate" participation in counseling. I cannot imagine profanity and crying being appropriate in a course where you are learning to be a counselor (perhaps such behavior could be construed as appropriate for a theater course). My dd doesn't even get points for showing up to her 9th grade French class, she must participate appropriately to get points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessa516 Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I cannot imagine profanity and crying being appropriate in a course where you are learning to be a counselor (perhaps such behavior could be construed as appropriate for a theater course). I agree with you on the profanity, but not on the crying. I remember a course where we had a presentation by Child and Family Services on child abuse. We were shown pictures of children that had been abused - what to look for, etc. Some of these children had been abused to death. Those pictures are burned forever in my mind. I was not the only one crying that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TXBeth Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I am curious why she and the three other students had to find a "supplemental internship" partway through the semester. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Those of you bothered by the zero for participation. I would think in a graduate course appropriate participation should not have to be spelled out. It sounds to me like her behavior in class was not contributing appropriately, but rather disrupting. You don't get points for showing up in grad school. And this is a counseling program. I see no reason why one could not expect "appropriate" participation in counseling. I cannot imagine profanity and crying being appropriate in a course where you are learning to be a counselor (perhaps such behavior could be construed as appropriate for a theater course). My dd doesn't even get points for showing up to her 9th grade French class, she must participate appropriately to get points. Yeah, participation is really hard to quantify. If I were teaching I would only even give participation points if the class was strongly participitory (as I'm sure a counseling class would be). But for lots of things (math, english) I would only grade tests and papers. I wouldn't even care if they came to class. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Another note for those wondering about participation: as stated in the article, this was a "fieldwork" class. Usually, fieldwork means that you're out "in the field", working as a counselor under supervision in some real-world setting. While using profanity and breaking down in tears in a classroom are questionable, that kind of behavior is unacceptable when you're in a professional setting as part of your fieldwork. It's possible that she acted this way around clients/patients. IMO that would be plenty to warrant a "0" for participation. Students are generally required to read, understand, and abide by professional standards governing their fieldwork. If she completely disregarded those standards, she deserved the grade she got. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 Yeah, participation is really hard to quantify. If I were teaching I would only even give participation points if the class was strongly participitory (as I'm sure a counseling class would be). But for lots of things (math, english) I would only grade tests and papers. I wouldn't even care if they came to class. I am currently a grad student and taking all online classes. We have a participation requirement via discussion boards. We have an assignment each week that we must respond to and post it on the boards. Then, we are required to respond to a classmate's post answering other questions. Lastly, we are required to respond in at least three of the threads and be active on the board over at least three different days during the week (and simple comments like "I agree" don't count). We get a participation grade each and every week complete with a rubric outlining the what is required of us. It's all quite clearly spelled out. Without this participation, there would be no discussion and the course would become completely independent study. Participation is very important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 She will probably win the case with the way the system rewards whiners. :iagree: What she said. :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 :iagree: What she said. :glare: I really, really, REALLY hope not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unsinkable Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Another note for those wondering about participation: as stated in the article, this was a "fieldwork" class. Usually, fieldwork means that you're out "in the field", working as a counselor under supervision in some real-world setting. While using profanity and breaking down in tears in a classroom are questionable, that kind of behavior is unacceptable when you're in a professional setting as part of your fieldwork. It's possible that she acted this way around clients/patients. IMO that would be plenty to warrant a "0" for participation. Students are generally required to read, understand, and abide by professional standards governing their fieldwork. If she completely disregarded those standards, she deserved the grade she got. When I did fieldwork for college classes, there was also a classroom component where all the other field work participants met with a professor to go over what was happening in our placements. It was for a few hours a week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativish Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I haven't read anywhere whether she had an opportunity to retake the class in order to continue in the program... Maybe this lawsuit just reinforces that classes must have an established grading rubric to determine any points that go toward figuring grades. Both to protect the professor and the student. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TammyS Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Participation is very important. For SOME things. But for other things it's almost entirely unnecessary and for still others it's helpful but not entirely necessary. Math: unnecessary. You could, in theory, learn all the math in a course without ever going to class and be able to show your knowledge by taking tests. English: helpful, but not entirely necessary. You can certainly have great discussions about literature, but they aren't necessary. Reading good commentaries and writing papers would be sufficient. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dandelion Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 When I did fieldwork for college classes, there was also a classroom component where all the other field work participants met with a professor to go over what was happening in our placements. It was for a few hours a week. Absolutely. Just wanted to point out that it could have happened outside of the classroom too because it was a fieldwork class - in which case the ramifications could potentially be greater. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonFaerie Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 For SOME things. But for other things it's almost entirely unnecessary and for still others it's helpful but not entirely necessary. Math: unnecessary. You could, in theory, learn all the math in a course without ever going to class and be able to show your knowledge by taking tests. English: helpful, but not entirely necessary. You can certainly have great discussions about literature, but they aren't necessary. Reading good commentaries and writing papers would be sufficient. True, but the student doesn't get to decide whether something is important or not. If participation was required as part of the class and was graded, then it was important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
creativish Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 True, but the student doesn't get to decide whether something is important or not. If participation was required as part of the class and was graded, then it was important. The way I read it, she was present and participated at each class, albeit in a questionable manner at times, but was not given ANY participation credit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bettyandbob Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 The way I read it, she was present and participated at each class, albeit in a questionable manner at times, but was not given ANY participation credit. if someone is disrupting others with their "participation" then they should not get credit. It sounds like her behavior was just disruptive and if it was disruptive she was impeding the learning process of others. Wouldn't it piss you off to take a class and have someone disrupting the class you paid for. If she showed up and made animal noises would that count, if that was how she wanted to participate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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