The self-entitlement generation strikes again

[creativish]

 

 

if someone is disrupting others with their "participation" then they should not get credit. It sounds like her behavior was just disruptive and if it was disruptive she was impeding the learning process of others. Wouldn't it piss you off to take a class and have someone disrupting the class you paid for.

 

If she showed up and made animal noises would that count, if that was how she wanted to participate.

 

I agree, but I really doubt she was disruptive 100% of the time, which is what the numbers reveal. Even if she received 2/25, I would think the teacher would have a stronger defense.

[DragonFaerie]

It sounds like the teacher gave her ample opportunity to fix things. If the girl refused, then that's on her, not the teacher.

[Dana]

And as an FYI for those who aren't familiar with grad school, a C in grad school is effectively an F. In my program, if you got 3 Cs, you were kicked out of the program.

[tearose]

And as an FYI for those who aren't familiar with grad school, a C in grad school is effectively an F. In my program, if you got 3 Cs, you were kicked out of the program.

 

Yeah, I had forgotten about this. I struggled quite a bit my first year in grad school and had a number of B grades, which were considered below average. A C definitely would have raised eyebrows.

[VeganCupcake]

 

I am currently a grad student and taking all online classes. We have a participation requirement via discussion boards. We have an assignment each week that we must respond to and post it on the boards. Then, we are required to respond to a classmate's post answering other questions. Lastly, we are required to respond in at least three of the threads and be active on the board over at least three different days during the week (and simple comments like "I agree" don't count). We get a participation grade each and every week complete with a rubric outlining the what is required of us. It's all quite clearly spelled out. Without this participation, there would be no discussion and the course would become completely independent study. Participation is very important.

 

I teach an online class that has discussion boards run like this. I think the time and space afforded by the internet and asynchronous classes means class participation in an online class is very different from participation in a live class.

 

In one of my graduate classes (a research seminar), the professor stipulated that each student had to make an intelligent comment in each class to qualify as having "participated" adequately. This frustrated me because it was a two-hour-a-week class of more than 20 students, and a good portion of each class was taken up by the student presenting that week. I felt like we were all tripping all over each other trying to squeeze in an intelligent comment. And woe be unto the person who couldn't think of anything sufficiently intelligent to say that week. I really disliked that class.

[OH_Homeschooler]

If the teacher sent her a letter during the course to tell her how to address her problems, and she ignored it, this is all on the student. Sounds like this student has a major persecution complex and can't take responsibility for her actions. Her class outbursts seemed to have little to do with the class material and more to do with herself.

 

When it comes to counseling programs, students are often required to go through counseling themselves. Many times those with a desire to "help people" are needing to "help themselves." If this student carried on inappropriately in a graduate class in counseling, she would probably not be stable enough to effectively counsel others. In other words, I think inappropriate participation (i.e. tantrums) in this kind of course is likely indicative of deeper issues that could potentially harm future counseling clients, and a zero participation grade is generous.

[Trish]

Lehigh is my alma mater. I knew one girl whose father was a professor, and she was a very hard worker, no sense of entitlement whatsoever. I guess the only thing I have to add is that this is not a school known for grade inflation. People had to work very hard for decent grades, so people expecting they could just slide along and earn a B or C sometimes found themselves sliding right out of the school.

[SKL]

I dunno, I'd have to know more about the environment of the university and the specific program she was in.

 

I've been to different universities, and some of them definitely expect and encourage profanity in class. I almost think they dock your participation grade if you blush too much when the teacher swears. As for crying in class "once," gimme a break. There would be a lot of professionals out of work if that was a common grade criterion. If she truly attended every day, I can't see a zero for participation. And if her behavior were worse than that, we'd be told so.

 

Not that I'm prepared to take her side. The whole "I got a free ride and that wasn't good enough" definitely rubs me the wrong way. But if it's true that this one C+ changed the entire course of her career AND it goes back to a cuss word here and a tear there, I think it's appropriate to look into it. In the absence of more damning evidence against her, it seems to me that she should have been given the chance to take the course again ASAP, preferably with a different instructor.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I dunno, I'd have to know more about the environment of the university and the specific program she was in.

 

I've been to different universities, and some of them definitely expect and encourage profanity in class. I almost think they dock your participation grade if you blush too much when the teacher swears. As for crying in class "once," gimme a break. There would be a lot of professionals out of work if that was a common grade criterion. If she truly attended every day, I can't see a zero for participation. And if her behavior were worse than that, we'd be told so.

 

Not that I'm prepared to take her side. The whole "I got a free ride and that wasn't good enough" definitely rubs me the wrong way. But if it's true that this one C+ changed the entire course of her career AND it goes back to a cuss word here and a tear there, I think it's appropriate to look into it. In the absence of more damning evidence against her, it seems to me that she should have been given the chance to take the course again ASAP, preferably with a different instructor.

 

Well, it doesn't sound like she was just swearing, she was openly insulting other professors in the process. And she wasn't just crying, it was a tantrum. This was a program designed to train professionals, and she exhibited far from professional behavior. I think it's great that she was not allowed to enter the profession. Sounds like if it hadn't been this class, something else would soon occur to prevent her from having a successful counseling career.

[SKL]

 

Well, it doesn't sound like she was just swearing, she was openly insulting other professors in the process. And she wasn't just crying, it was a tantrum. This was a program designed to train professionals, and she exhibited far from professional behavior. I think it's great that she was not allowed to enter the profession. Sounds like if it hadn't been this class, something else would soon occur to prevent her from having a successful counseling career.

 

 

I guess we didn't read the same article.

 

I wonder, though, whether confidentiality isn't expected in this type of situation? If it was true that she had discipline problems in class, is that everyone's business? Maybe since she is an adult it doesn't matter.

[cin]

Judge decides quickly after request to dismiss Lehigh lawsuit over C+ grade

 

The ZERO is still bothering me. Maybe she is a spoiled brat, but that isn't a reason to give a zero and prevent her from continuing on in the program.

 

 

 

After reading this, I think the zero was appropriate. 2 other students, in addition to her, had to seek a supplemental internship. She feels that she was targeted because they complained. If so, where are the other students? Did they feel targeted too? Or did they move along just fine and get their degree? I'm just not buying it.

[OH_Homeschooler]

I guess we didn't read the same article.

 

SKL...here's a quote from one of the articles linked earlier in the thread:

 

Eckhardt insisted the grade was warranted, however. Megan Thode had outbursts in class in which she asked for aspirin for a headache and recalled how someone once called another professor a pompous ass. Thode was not participating in the therapy course appropriately, Eckhardt said, and Eckhardt even provided her a letter advising her on steps she needed to take.

 

So that's what I'm basing my opinion on.

 

I wonder, though, whether confidentiality isn't expected in this type of situation? If it was true that she had discipline problems in class, is that everyone's business? Maybe since she is an adult it doesn't matter.

 

I would think all claims to confidentiality would go out the window once the student filed a major lawsuit and the professor is forced to defend the grade she gave her. How else can the teacher defend herself without providing examples of classroom behavior and performance?

[DragonFaerie]

I find it interesting that she complained about having to find supplemental internships. WHY did she need supplemental internships? Was it because she already wasn't doing well in the course and the instructor felt that the extra work was necessary? The article also talks about being "competent to move forward." It seems pretty clear to me that this was an important class and doing well was key in moving forward with her program. It also sounds like (and I could be making some inferences here) she wasn't doing well and the instructor required extra work via the internships to get her back on track as well as writing to her to explain what she needed to do to pass the course. When she didn't pass, I would venture a guess that she probably refused to take the course again. Or perhaps the school suggested that she change her degree program as her planned direction wasn't appearing to be a good fit for her. She agreed to that (obviously, or else she wouldn't hold the other degree), but for whatever reason has now decided to cry foul.

 

It is also ludicrous to me that she is suing for an amount that is the difference between a bachelor's degree holder's potential earnings and a master's degree holder's potential earnings completely ignoring the fact that she does indeed hold a master's degree herself.

[nmoira]

I haven't sought out more than the article the OP linked, but I don't have enough information to judge.

 

A friend is in the process of working through a similar degree at the PhD level, and tells me about some of the things they do in her classes. Some of her projects and presentations have been intensely personal in nature, and it is understandable that students get emotional when talking about abuse and other traumatic events. They often do role playing in class, that is critiqued by the group observing that week. It's not necessarily as simple as walking in, discussing an assigned text or engaging in a detached seminar, and walking out.

[SKL]

 

I would think all claims to confidentiality would go out the window once the student filed a major lawsuit and the professor is forced to defend the grade she gave her. How else can the teacher defend herself without providing examples of classroom behavior and performance?

 

 

Of course they should be allowed to bring it all up in court. I got the impression it was being told to the media or the general public by the school. That doesn't seem right, but maybe that's not what happened.

 

I am unable to read one of the linked articles, so I can't really comment on the additional info. It's always hard to judge based on one-sided info, even if you get one-sided info from both sides.

 

I must say it never occurred to me to sue my teachers for giving me C+ (and I did get a few early in law school, which did inarguably cost me scholarship money). I could always reluctantly trace it back to my own choices or ignorance, more or less. The problem is that sometimes, you don't know what you've gotten yourself into until it's too late to fix things. You listened to the wrong advisor or "little voice in your head." Oh, well. Suck it up and move on. The fact that most others didn't have the problem I had would have suggested they made better choices, not that I had suffered discrimination. Who knows, maybe I missed a big opportunity. LOL.

[Rebel]

This comment is just in regards to the participation grade. I had a graduate level class a few semesters back (Population Genetics if anyone cares) where 10% of our grade was based on participation. Participation was based on how much we talked during class, asking questions, making relavent comments and such. That in itself was reasonable. The bad part is that the professor announced the first day of class that the participation grade would be competitive. There were 6 of us in the class and he would be giving one A, one B, two Cs, one D, and one F, and we would be competing with each other for our grade. One student basically said, "Screw it," and only made one comment per class. She got the F. The rest of us were obnoxious in our attempts to talk during class. If one person said something, the rest of us made sure and try to say something too. Honestly, I felt out of the remaining 5, one talked a little less, but he was international and had poor English skills. (He got the D.) The rest of us were about equal. I got one of the Cs, but still did fine in the class. The point is that graduate level classes especially do not have to be "fair."

 

For what it is worth, we were all friends and our cut throat competition was relegated to that particular class.

 

On another participation note, the lab I am currently TAing has a 10% participation grade too. The students in each lab group anonomously grade each other on participation at the end of the semester. I get the final say if I think something is unfair, but have yet to do so. I would intervene grade-wise if I had a table of mean girls picking on someone who I knew had been participating fully or if I had everyone in a group giving high marks to Mr. Popular who never did anything. So far, and this is my fourth semester, they have been very reasonable. In addition to the grade, they have to have a sentence justifying it like "always willing to be a subject," "turned in their part of the group assignment on time," or "missed outside meetings frequently without communicating."

 

I don't know enough to comment on whether or not her suit is justified. With that on her record branding her as a "trouble maker" she will probably have difficulty finding a job unless she has MAJOR justification to back her up.

[JumpyTheFrog]

Why didn't this woman just retake the class for a better grade? Is that only allowed for undergrads?

[SKL]

I always hated the participation grades. I also know that many profs threatened a participation grade to force us to come to class, but then only applied it at their discretion. So I could (and often did) have poor attendance and still get an A. Others were sticklers for it, and I always felt that was to feed their ego. I happen to be very introverted, so I'm sure that colored my opinions, LOL.

 

One of my C+ grades was in a contracts law class at 7:45am, 4 days per week. (I am NOT a morning person - but the teacher sure was!!) I was frequently "a little late" and tried to sneak quietly in without disturbing the class. But the teacher wasn't having it. She took attendance (there were about 100 students in there) and she would stop lecturing to go notate that you were x minutes late as opposed to absent. Once she got angry and yelled at whoever was late that day. She would also call on people cold. Ugh. That was before I discovered coffee - it was torture. I'm pretty sure I fell asleep in class once - otherwise I'm not sure how the image of a dinosaur from the nearby museum entered my head. Still not sure whether I snored. LOL. Hated that class! Give me my C+ and let me OUT!

 

With that background, I don't think participation grades should matter unless participation is actually relevant to one's acquisition of the skill being acquired. Here, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. There is a lot of arbitrariness in the halls of higher learning. More than a few pompous asses, too.

[DragonFaerie]

Whew!

 

Pa. judge rejects Lehigh University student's lawsuit over C-plus grade in graduate school

[gardenmom5]

Why didn't this woman just retake the class for a better grade? Is that only allowed for undergrads?

 

It might depend upon the program, or school. my dd's program, a woman from the previous year had to retake a class, and is now in my dd's year. I guess the class was only offered once a year. (and at dds undergrad school - classes were only offered once a year. it was also a fairly small school.)

[Catwoman]

Whew!

 

Pa. judge rejects Lehigh University student's lawsuit over C-plus grade in graduate school

 

 

:hurray: :hurray: :hurray:

 

If this had been allowed to proceed, some students would have made a career out of filing lawsuits against their professors.

 

The unfortunate thing is, in some circumstances, students really are treated unfairly, and people like this particular woman make people less trusting of those who have a legitimate complaint.

[DragonFaerie]

Frivolous lawsuits in general undermine the legal system's ability to protect and compensate true victims. Lawyers that take on these types of cases should be ashamed of themselves. They're putting the almighty dollar above the integrity of the system.

[violamama]

Frivolous lawsuits in general undermine the legal system's ability to protect and compensate true victims. Lawyers that take on these types of cases should be ashamed of themselves. They're putting the almighty dollar above the integrity of the system.

My husband tells me the lawyer's work may be reviewed by the bar. Truly frivolous suits are not as common as you might think because of that.

 

I wonder what her professor parent thought of all this...

[Butter]

I went through a nursing program and our participation grade was mostly based on the clinicals (fieldwork) and not on the classroom participation.

 

My brother is a college professor and it's insane the stories he tells about some students. He's had to really defend why he has given bad grades sometimes. Once he failed a football player and the university tried to make hi change the grade. My brother had to poduce evidence and stand his ground that the F was warrented. The student showed up to three classes all semester and did no homework and took no tests. The F stood in the end. Just this semester a student called him three weeks into the semester and asked if he had missed anything (yes) and if my brother would catch him up since he just "didn't have time" to come to class (no). And the student was shocked when my brother said no!

[Dandelion]

Whew!

 

Pa. judge rejects Lehigh University student's lawsuit over C-plus grade in graduate school

 

:thumbup1:

[Jane in NC]

My brother is a college professor and it's insane the stories he tells about some students. He's had to really defend why he has given bad grades sometimes. Once he failed a football player and the university tried to make hi change the grade. My brother had to poduce evidence and stand his ground that the F was warrented. The student showed up to three classes all semester and did no homework and took no tests. The F stood in the end. Just this semester a student called him three weeks into the semester and asked if he had missed anything (yes) and if my brother would catch him up since he just "didn't have time" to come to class (no). And the student was shocked when my brother said no!

 

 

Reminds me of a tale told by an older prof. He was approached by a cute co-ed who said that she would do "anything" for an A. "Anything?" he asked. "Anything..." she responded in a breathy voice.

 

"Great! Then you'll study. That is usually what A students do."

[LucyStoner]

Its important to remember that anyone can file a lawsuit. Most suits like this are dismissed.