Can one be a pastor and a rabbi?

[itsheresomewhere]

Certain family member sent us a gift. Long story short several of us see cultish like stuff going on. Now the present is a book on tape by someone who is a pastor and a rabbi. Now we are getting a little concerned how much money/time they may be funneling into this. So can one person be a rabbi and a pastor?

[Joanne]

Rabbi means teacher. I think that the Nazarine church (Messianic Christians) may use the terms interchangably.

[itsheresomewhere]

Someone in Seattle did this awhile back. I believe it was a woman who was an Episcopal priest and a rabbi. I think the Episcopal Church made her decide which is what, at some point. But my memory is somewhat flawed, so don't hold me to it. At any rate, it might give you enough information to Google it.

 

Google was a little confusing on this. Apparently, this man created a jewish center so he could be listed as rabbi. I asked several friends and they were confused and thought no. I did call the local jewish community center and the very nice rabbi told me this guy was not really a rabbi but he can call himself that according to a law.

[Laurie4b]

I agree with Joanne, that it is likely to be a Messianic Jewish leader. Messianic Jews self-identify as both Jews and Christians. In general, those groups are not cults, though that is not saying that a particular one is not. Who is the author?

[itsheresomewhere]

I agree with Joanne, that it is likely to be a Messianic Jewish leader. Messianic Jews self-identify as both Jews and Christians. In general, those groups are not cults, though that is not saying that a particular one is not. Who is the author?

 

 

I will PM it to you.

[Audrey]

Certain family member sent us a gift. Long story short several of us see cultish like stuff going on. Now the present is a book on tape by someone who is a pastor and a rabbi. Now we are getting a little concerned how much money/time they may be funneling into this. So can one person be a rabbi and a pastor?

 

 

Umm.. short answer? No. Just no.

[Liz CA]

Not if the person takes either faith seriously IMHO.

There is one movement called (I think) "Jews for Jesus" but I know virtually nothing about them and don't know if their spiritual "head" calls him/herself rabbi or pastor. However, as I understand it, any faith that has as the core of its views Jesus as the savior, is usually labeled Christian to the chagrin of many Christian leaders who would prefer the definition to be more narrow.

I know a rabbi who is not even orthodox but she would never call herself "pastor".

[Spy Car]

No. They are mutually exclusive.

 

Bill

[Dory]

Messianic Christians would say yes. I have a couple family members who are Messianic Jews. Anyone else would say no.

[milovany]

Someone in Seattle did this awhile back. I believe it was a woman who was an Episcopal priest and a rabbi. I think the Episcopal Church made her decide which is what, at some point. But my memory is somewhat flawed, so don't hold me to it. At any rate, it might give you enough information to Google it.

 

I'm pretty sure she was an Episcopal priest and also a Muslim. I remember something like that in the Seattle area several years ago.

 

ETA - Yup.

[Spy Car]

 

 

I'm pretty sure she was an Episcopal priest and also a Muslim. I remember something like that in the Seattle area several years ago.

 

ETA - Yup.

 

I'm sorry, but It is an absurd claim on the part of this woman, as one can not be a Muslim and Christian as much as one might have impulses toward syncretism. These faiths have mutually exclusive elements.

 

Bill

[Parrothead]

I don't think it is possible. At least not at the same time.

[Starr]

http://en.wikipedia...._Holmes_Redding

 

 

 

She's no longer a priest.

[milovany]

I'm sorry, but It is an absurd claim on the part of this woman, as one can not be a Muslim and Christian as much as one might have impulses toward syncretism. These faiths have mutually exclusive elements.

 

Bill

 

Jah.

[Spy Car]

If one believes that Jesus was part of a three person godhead, or a divine Son of God, or a divine partner of God then one can not be a authentic Muslim. Such a belief would run expressly against the teachings of Islam.

 

If one does not believe Jesus was part of a divine godhead, or the divine son of God, then one could not claim to the an authentic Christian.

 

The two theologies are unambiguously mutually exclusive on this point.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

 

 

Jah.

 

Jah Rastafari?

 

Bill

[Impish]

I agree w/those that have suggestioned Messianic Jewish. It's the only situation I can think of that it would be possible.

[milovany]

Jah Rastafari?

 

Bill

 

No, sorry. My inner Estonian was coming out. ;)

 

I thought it was my inner Swede, but then that pesky "h" got thrown on the end.

[Spy Car]

 

 

No, sorry. My inner Estonian was coming out. ;)

 

I thought it was my inner Swede, but then that pesky "h" got thrown on the end.

 

Maybe it is your inner Estonian-Jamican? :D

 

Bill

[milovany]

Maybe it is your inner Estonian-Jamican? :D

 

Bill

 

:D

[Spy Car]

I agree w/those that have suggestioned Messianic Jewish. It's the only situation I can think of that it would be possible.

 

Again, not authentic Judaism so not an authentic rabbi.

 

Anyone can proclaim themselves the Queen of Sheba, doesn't make it so.

 

Bill

[mommymilkies]

Again, not authentic Judaism so not an authentic rabbi.

 

Anyone can proclaim themselves the Queen of Sheba, doesn't make it so.

 

Bill

 

 

I agree. And hold up...I was raised Jewish so excuse my ignorance, but Nazarenes are Messianics?

[Juniper]

 

I agree. And hold up...I was raised Jewish so excuse my ignorance, but Nazarenes are Messianics?

 

 

 

That was a new one for me as well.

 

As to the OP my dear friend who Pastor's a Messianic church, does refer to herself and her dh this way. Personally, I do have issues with it, but obviously she feels differently. I still think she is one of the sweetest women I know and I am glad to call her friend. Not all who refer to themselves as both are going to be inherently unhealthy.

[Dory]

 

 

I agree. And hold up...I was raised Jewish so excuse my ignorance, but Nazarenes are Messianics?

I was funding that a little confusing as well. I know people who grew up in the Nazarene church and I had never heard them talk if themselves as Messianic.

[itsheresomewhere]

Thanks everyone. I am getting prepared with info as I think someone is going to have to intervene very soon. Other family members are trying to get more evidence from them to see how bad it really is. Truthfully, I am very worried about how much money is going to this as they both have health problems and are not getting any younger. Someone needs to make sure they aren't blowing everything they have into this and won't be able live.

[*********]

I was raised Nazarene, and we were NOT messianic.

[Spy Car]

Thanks everyone. I am getting prepared with info as I think someone is going to have to intervene very soon. Other family members are trying to get more evidence from them to see how bad it really is. Truthfully, I am very worried about how much money is going to this as they both have health problems and are not getting any younger. Someone needs to make sure they aren't blowing everything they have into this and won't be able live.

 

 

Act swiftly. Whatever is going on is not kosher.

 

Bill

[sassenach]

Thanks everyone. I am getting prepared with info as I think someone is going to have to intervene very soon. Other family members are trying to get more evidence from them to see how bad it really is. Truthfully, I am very worried about how much money is going to this as they both have health problems and are not getting any younger. Someone needs to make sure they aren't blowing everything they have into this and won't be able live.

 

Are they by chance in Florida or Colorado? There is a cult whose leader refers to himself as a rabbi/pastor. He's a total scam artist.

[bolt.]

"Rabbi" is a simple word meaning simply "teacher" -- it is a word that was used in Jewish contexts during New Testament times. Of course, there is no reason why Jewish people should not use it, but there is also no reason why Christians, who follow Jesus (a Rabbi) would not be free to use the designation also. Few Christian groups do use it, but many completely non-cult Messianic groups do use "rabbi" to refer either to any/all "teachers" or to the leader(s) of a congregation (who usually are teachers).

 

"Pastor" is a simple word meaning "shepherd" -- it is a word that was used in the New Testament in combination with a Greek word for "teacher" yielding the idea of leadership through *both* loving personal guidance *and* teaching. Christians have used the "shepherd" image for personal leadership at many times, either to refer to any/all leaders, or to the leader(s) of an entire congregation.

 

Neither of the above words is actually a *title* or a specific, designated, limited role. Both of them are merely descriptive nouns that describe the activities of a person. They come from different source languages, but neither source language is inappropriate for Christian use.

 

It is unusual though, in our culture. I would be led to conclude that by intentionally choosing a Jewish-source word to describe themself, that person is intending to communicate that s/he has an affinity for the continuity of Jewish practices into the Christian life -- which is generally called "being a Messianic Christian".

 

...

 

"The Church of the Nazarene" is a denomination. It is protestant and evangelical. It is not "Messianic" the way we mean it here (although, of course, all Christians embrace the basic idea that Jesus is the Messiah). There may be Messianic groups also using the word "Nazarene" in their congregation's name. It too, is not a *title* but a descriptive noun meaning, "Person from Nazareth". The denomination "The Church of the Nazarene" might not be the only group using it.

 

...

 

If we want to get into it, of course it is not possible to hold a complete Muslim theology and a complete Christian theology at the same time. Bill is quite right that the doctrine of the Trinity defines Christianity, yet is completely incomparable with the Muslim view of (their) God.

 

That said (and said firmly and clearly!) Christianity as we know it is not a "pure" thing. We all (every last one of us) have made Christianity comprehensible to the minds and hearts we currently live with. Christianity makes sense to our culture and worldview because we have made it make sense: It is bigger than our minds, yet we have learned it and expressed it in ways our minds can hold. We have responded in acts of worship that feel suitable to us. These are normal and completely faithful Christian things to do. It's not syncretism if "our Christianity" is true-alhough-enculturated. It is syncretism only when it is enculturated-becoming-false.

 

The reason we *need* to know that we are living with an enculturated Christianity is because otherwise we are open to the strong error of cultural pride. "We" may enculturate Christianity, but "you" must receive it from "us" (complete with our cultural understandings and expressions). We can call this cultural hubris... or we can call it racism and colonialism. It's not OK to deny other cultures the freedom that we give ourselves. We need to allow them to encounter the gospel, be changed by it, encounter the full counsel of Scripture and be transformed by it -- yet still come out of that process retaining their cultural identity.

 

It is a fearful thing to see another culture use their own "boxes" when they do theology. It is foreign and makes little sense to us... but that's how little sense our theology makes to them. So, "Who decided that western thought is the best kind of thought?" (And other cultures have to accept it, even when it makes little sense to them.)

 

To be a Muslim is to have both a religion and a culture. To be a "Christian Muslim" *might* mean deadly syncretism... but it also might mean someone who sees Jesus through Muslim eyes, loves Him, follows Him, considers Him "My Lord and My God" -- but is going to take a lifetime to work out how culturally-muslim thinking and Christian revelation work together.

 

(Also, "Muslim" is not a title either, it too is a descriptive noun... I can't remember for sure, but I think it translates as, "surrendered" (somebody check for me?) -- so, depending on the person speaking, they may merely mean, "I appreciate the attitude towards God that is expressed by the degree of 'surrendered-ness' seen in Muslim observance. God has been teaching me about surrendering to Him."

 

...

 

So, yes, this boils down to, "You can call yourself the Queen of Sheba if you want to." -- It's best to figure out what the *real* person actually means by the words they have chosen. The words themselves have a very wide range of possible meanings. There is no sense jumping to conclusions.

 

The titles just aren't very meaningful, standing alone... but it sounds like your "gut" (and probably other evidence) is telling you something very strongly about the real situation that your family members actually are in. One thing is for sure, sending preacher-tapes as a Christmas gift, just that act alone, is awfully close to a red flag about possible cult-like groups. Add money concerns to that, and you've got cause for suspicion, and just toss in "unusual titles for the leader" as sprinkles on top. An "unusual title" itself wouldn't be a big deal. Alongside your other concerns, yeah, I can see why it raised your hackles

[Twigs]

"Rabbi" is a simple word meaning simply "teacher" -- it is a word that was used in Jewish contexts during New Testament times. Of course, there is no reason why Jewish people should not use it, but there is also no reason why Christians, who follow Jesus (a Rabbi) would not be free to use the designation also. Few Christian groups do use it, but many completely non-cult Messianic groups do use "rabbi" to refer either to any/all "teachers" or to the leader(s) of a congregation (who usually are teachers).

 

"Pastor" is a simple word meaning "shepherd" -- it is a word that was used in the New Testament in combination with a Greek word for "teacher" yielding the idea of leadership through *both* loving personal guidance *and* teaching. Christians have used the "shepherd" image for leadership at many times, either to refer to any/all leaders, or to the leader(s) of a congregation.

 

Neither of the above words is actually a *title* or a specific, designated, limited role. Both of them are merely descriptive nouns that describe the activities of a person. They come from different source languages, but neither source language is inappropriate for Christian use.

 

...

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Or, sending a preacher tape might just be someone who thinks it's the next best thing to sliced bread and is trying to share the love. It may be misguided in that other people don't think it is all that awesome a Christmas present, but it doesn't mean they belong to a cult. Just because a title (the rabbi title) is unfamiliar, does not mean that it is a cult.

[Juniper]

"Rabbi" is a simple word meaning simply "teacher" -- it is a word that was used in Jewish contexts during New Testament times. Of course, there is no reason why Jewish people should not use it, but there is also no reason why Christians, who follow Jesus (a Rabbi) would not be free to use the designation also. Few Christian groups do use it, but many completely non-cult Messianic groups do use "rabbi" to refer either to any/all "teachers" or to the leader(s) of a congregation (who usually are teachers).

 

"Pastor" is a simple word meaning "shepherd" -- it is a word that was used in the New Testament in combination with a Greek word for "teacher" yielding the idea of leadership through *both* loving personal guidance *and* teaching. Christians have used the "shepherd" image for personal leadership at many times, either to refer to any/all leaders, or to the leader(s) of an entire congregation.

 

Neither of the above words is actually a *title* or a specific, designated, limited role. Both of them are merely descriptive nouns that describe the activities of a person. They come from different source languages, but neither source language is inappropriate for Christian use.

 

It is unusual though, in our culture. I would be led to conclude that by intentionally choosing a Jewish-source word to describe themself, that person is intending to communicate that s/he has an affinity for the continuity of Jewish practices into the Christian life -- which is generally called "being a Messianic Christian".

 

.

 

I think this is true of our culture....now. I am not quite as sure that this argument holds if you go back about 200 years. Okay, maybe the term Shepherd in relation to Pastor, since that title is a rather recent development.

 

I wonder if the historic definitions of "Rabbi" and "Priest" are not mutually exclusive when one accounts for their respective cultural definitions. Clear as mud? ;)

 

 

Edited: I guess what I am saying is that I do not believe that "Rabbi" historically is a "simple" word.

[Parrothead]

Again, not authentic Judaism so not an authentic rabbi.

 

Anyone can proclaim themselves the Queen of Sheba, doesn't make it so.

 

Bill

Well...

Could not one be tribally/culturally Jewish yet Christian in religious belief?

 

I honestly don't know. Just a thought.

[Spy Car]

"Rabbi" is a simple word meaning simply "teacher" -- it is a word that was used in Jewish contexts during New Testament times. Of course, there is no reason why Jewish people should not use it, but there is also no reason why Christians, who follow Jesus (a Rabbi) would not be free to use the designation also. Few Christian groups do use it, but many completely non-cult Messianic groups do use "rabbi" to refer either to any/all "teachers" or to the leader(s) of a congregation (who usually are teachers).

 

"Pastor" is a simple word meaning "shepherd" -- it is a word that was used in the New Testament in combination with a Greek word for "teacher" yielding the idea of leadership through *both* loving personal guidance *and* teaching. Christians have used the "shepherd" image for leadership at many times, either to refer to any/all leaders, or to the leader(s) of a congregation.

 

Neither of the above words is actually a *title* or a specific, designated, limited role. Both of them are merely descriptive nouns that describe the activities of a person. They come from different source languages, but neither source language is inappropriate for Christian use.

 

It is unusual though, in our culture. I would be led to conclude that by intentionally choosing a Jewish-source word to describe themself, that person is intending to communicate that s/he has an affinity for the continuity of Jewish practices into the Christian life -- which is generally called "being a Messianic Christian".

 

...

 

"The Church of the Nazarene" is a denomination. It is protestant and evangelical. It is not "Messianic" the way we mean it here (although, of course, all Christians embrace the basic idea that Jesus is the Messiah). There may be Messianic groups also using the word "Nazarene" in their congregation's name. It too, is not a *title* but a descriptive noun meaning, "Person from Nazareth". The denomination "The Church of the Nazarene" might not be the only group using it.

 

...

 

If we want to get into it, of course it is not possible to hold a complete Muslim theology and a complete Christian theology at the same time. Bill is quite right that the doctrine of the Trinity defines Christianity, yet is completely incomparable with the Muslim view of (their) God.

 

That said (and said firmly and clearly!) Christianity as we know it is not a "pure" thing. We all (every last one of us) have made Christianity comprehensible to the minds and hearts we currently live with. Christianity makes sense to our culture and worldview because we have made it make sense: We have learned it and expressed it in ways our minds can hold. We have responded in acts of worship that feel suitable to us. These are normal and completely faithful Christian things to do. It's not syncretism if "our Christianity" is true-alhough-enculturated. It is syncretism only when it is enculturated-becoming-false.

 

The reason we *need* to know that we are living with an enculturated Christianity is because otherwise we are open to the strong error of cultural pride. "We" may enculturate Christianity, but "you" must receive it from "us" (complete with our cultural understandings and exp<b></b>ressions). We can call this cultural hubris... or we can call it racism and colonialism. It's not OK to deny other cultures the freedom that we give ourselves. We need to allow them to encounter the gospel, be changed by it, encounter the full counsel of Scripture and be transformed by it -- yet still come out of that process retaining their cultural identity.

 

It is a fearful thing to see another culture use their own "boxes" when they do theology. It is foreign and makes little sense to us... but that's how little sense our theology makes to them. So, "Who decided that western thought is the best kind of thought?"

 

To be a Muslim is to have both a religion and a culture. To be a "Christian Muslim" *might* mean deadly syncretism... but it also might mean someone who sees Jesus through Muslim eyes, loves Him, follows Him, considers Him "My Lord and My God" -- but is going to take a lifetime to work out how culturally-muslim thinking and Christian revelation work together.

 

(Also, "Muslim" is not a title either, it too is a descriptive noun... I can't remember for sure, but I think it translates as, "surrendered" (somebody check for me?) -- so, depending on the person speaking, they may merely mean, "I appreciate the attitude towards God that is expressed by the degree of 'surrendered-ness' seen in Muslim observance. God has been teaching me about surrendering to Him."

 

...

 

So, yes, this boils down to, "You can call yourself the Queen of Sheba if you want to." -- It's best to figure out what the *real* person actually means by the words they have chosen. The words themselves have a very wide range of possible meanings. There is no sense jumping to conclusions.

 

The titles just aren't very meaningful, standing alone... but it sounds like your "gut" (and probably other evidence) is telling you something very strongly about the real situation that your family members actually are in. One thing is for sure, sending preacher-tapes as a Christmas gift, just that act alone, is awfully close to a red flag about possible cult-like groups. Add money concerns to that, and you've got cause for suspicion, and just toss in "unusual titles for the leader" as sprinkles on top. An "unusual title" itself wouldn't be a big deal. Alongside your other concerns, yeah, I can see why it raised your hackles

 

Your post is entirely misleading. While tis so that Rabbi and Pastor have descriptive meanings (teacher and shepherd) they also have very specific meanings that refer to ordained spiritual leaders in the Jewish and Christian faiths, respectively. This ordinarily requires study in a yeshiva or seminary, and an ordination by a religious institution. With Jewish Rabbis they earn a Semicha/Semikhah, which is one (senior) Rabbi confirming the ordination of a new Rabbi.

 

Saying rabbi simply means "teacher" (or pastor simply means shepherd) is inaccurate.

 

As to Muslims who see Jesus through Muslim eyes, they would be a Muslim. Muslims believe Jesus was a very great prophet of God. However, if one sees Jesus as God they are not a Muslim because that is antithetical to the fundamental principle of Islam. One can't have it both ways.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

 

Well...

Could not one be tribally/culturally Jewish yet Christian in religious belief?

 

I honestly don't know. Just a thought.

 

Sure. There are many converts to Christianity who come from ethnically Jewish backgrounds. But when they become Christians they are no longer practicing Judaism as a religion.

 

An Italian Catholic who converts to Islam is no longer a Catholic, but is still Italian. Yes?

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

I was raised Nazarene, and we were NOT messianic.

 

My stepdad was raised Nazarene and they are definitely NOT messianic. In fact, his mother was very firm about them being "Gentile Christians" when she got upset about about my naming a child after an OT Prophet (she insisted that it was too "Jewish" so she would call him by his middle name...another OT Prophet. The children before him were also named after people in the OT...can't figure out her issue other than ignorant bigotry).

[Jean in Newcastle]

Sure. There are many converts to Christianity who come from ethnically Jewish backgrounds. But when they become Christians they are no longer practicing Judaism as a religion.

 

An Italian Catholic who converts to Islam is no longer a Catholic, but is still Italian. Yes?

 

Bill

 

 

But Italy is a country and the patriotism and cultural bond one identifies with is of a region which doesn't change even if one's religion changes.

 

Being Jewish and Muslim is not specifically geographical and isn't specifically religious (though obviously it includes the religions). The cultural bond that someone who has been raised in those religions goes way beyond the religion so that when they change religion they often still use the descriptor Jewish and Muslim to describe the non-religious elements that they still embrace. No one is trying to trick anyone as to their religion That is why they make certain to add the Christian part to their descriptor.

[mommaduck]

Certain family member sent us a gift. Long story short several of us see cultish like stuff going on. Now the present is a book on tape by someone who is a pastor and a rabbi. Now we are getting a little concerned how much money/time they may be funneling into this. So can one person be a rabbi and a pastor?

 

May I ask the name of the book? I've known a couple of people that were involved in groups that would be generally termed "Yahwehists". They even have Bibles printed up where certain names are switched out for what they consider the only acceptable name, etc. Some of these groups are beyond the mainstream Messianic groups, but are more fringe (and cultlike) groups.

[itsheresomewhere]

Thanks everyone. This person is endorsed by certain loony who is still on tv. I think most of us know who that is without me having to say it. I do hope they listen to us but who knows.

[theYoungerMrsWarde]

Act swiftly. Whatever is going on is not kosher. Bill

 

Pun intended? :D

[Spy Car]

 

 

But Italy is a country and the patriotism and cultural bond one identifies with is of a region which doesn't change even if one's religion changes.

 

Yes, I'm aware that Italy is a country. Likewise most Jews feel that they are part of a nation. So very often even the most anti-religious Jews (who think the whole deal is utter nonsense) still think of themselves as proud Jews in a sense of national/ tribal identity.

 

It gets complex when ethnic Jews convert to Christianity.

 

Being Jewish and Muslim is not specifically geographical and isn't specifically religious (though obviously it includes the religions).

 

Not accurate in regards to Muslims. While geographical or tribal affiliations play no role in Islam (accept the obvious factor that Muslim parents usually raise Muslim children, etc), being a Muslim is all about faith and religion.

 

If one believes in Islam one is a Muslim irrespective of national or ethnic identity. If one does not believe in Islam one is not a Muslim irrespective of ethnic or national identity.

 

With Jews it is different as there are both religious and national/tribal component to Jewish identity. This is not so in Islam.

 

The cultural bond that someone who has been raised in those religions goes way beyond the religion so that when they change religion they often still use the descriptor Jewish and Muslim to describe the non-religious elements that they still embrace.

 

Wrong. A Muslim is not a Muslim if they leave Islam. They are seen as an apostate by the Muslim community. They might still carry cultural values of the society in which they were raised (that is natural), but they can not label their religious practice "Muslim" if they reject Islam.

 

Jews who convert to Christianity or Islam are no longer practicing Judaism. Will they still enjoy kreplach soup? Who doubts it?

 

No one is trying to trick anyone as to their religion That is why they make certain to add the Christian part to their descriptor.

 

You can't add descriptors when they are inaccurate, and try to force two things together that are mutually exclusive. A person can be a former Christian who has converted to Islam, or a Jew who has converted to Christanity, but Christian-Muslim makes no sense in a theological context.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

 

 

Pun intended? :D

 

 

Why would it not be? :D

 

Bill

[Parrothead]

Sure. There are many converts to Christianity who come from ethnically Jewish backgrounds. But when they become Christians they are no longer practicing Judaism as a religion.

 

An Italian Catholic who converts to Islam is no longer a Catholic, but is still Italian. Yes?

 

Bill

Yes. You have a point with that. I suppose I see being Jewish as more than a religion. More like being Italian and moving to Sweden. One is still Italian, not Swedish.

 

Just me pondering deeper than normal thoughts.

[mommaduck]

Thanks everyone. This person is endorsed by certain loony who is still on tv. I think most of us know who that is without me having to say it. I do hope they listen to us but who knows.

There are many loonies on tv, so no, not certain whom you are referring to. Could you pm me?

[Parrothead]

Yes, I'm aware that Italy is a country. Likewise most Jews feel that they are part of a nation. So very often even the most anti-religious Jews (who think the whole deal is utter nonsense) still think of themselves as proud Jews in a sense of national/ tribal identity.

 

 

Exactly this, Thanks.

[bolt.]

Your post is entirely misleading. While tis so that Rabbi and Pastor have descriptive meanings (teacher and shepherd) they also have very specific meanings that refer to ordained spiritual leaders in the Jewish and Christian faiths, respectively. This ordinarily requires study in a yeshiva or seminary, and an ordination by a religious institution. With Jewish Rabbis they earn a Semicha/Semikhah, which is one (senior) Rabbi confirming the ordination of a new Rabbi.

 

Saying rabbi simply means "teacher" (or pastor simply means shepherd) is inaccurate.

I agree that currently, in American culture, both "Rabbi" and "Pastor" are used as titles which tend to imply qualified, approved congregational leadership in two different faiths. That doesn't mean that a person isn't free to use them to mean something else, if that 'something else' is within a reasonable range of meanings. It is quite reasonable for a Christian to adopt the title "Rabbi" if that Christian is indeed a religious teacher.

 

As to Muslims who see Jesus through Muslim eyes, they would be a Muslim. Muslims believe Jesus was a very great prophet of God. However, if one sees Jesus as God they are not a Muslim because that is antithetical to the fundamental principle of Islam. One can't have it both ways.

I thought I said and emphasized that one can not have a complete Christian theology and a complete Muslim theology. The antithesis is definitely there on the question of the divinity of Jesus (and the trinity of the Godhead). I fully agree with that.

 

After I agreed with you, I moved on to other thoughts. Thoughts like, under what circumstances might a designation like "Christian Muslim" seem reasonable?

 

Here are my thoughts.

 

What happens when a Muslim accepts Jesus as Lord and God? Obviously they discard their belief former that Jesus is not God, but other than that, how much of their theology and practice is allowed to retain a resemblance to their earlier belief system? Are they allowed to worship in ways that look Muslim? Or do they have to worship in ways that look western? Are they allowed to think about God the Father in a way that resembles a former belief in Allah? Or are they required to think about God the Father in a way that resembles cultural constructs such as classical Greek philosophy?

 

How does such a person describe themself if they have faith in Jesus, rejecting the Muslim view of Jesus, but retaining a somewhat-muslim-but-nothing-that-contradicts-the-Bible worldview? I don't know if there is a perfect description that would satisfy you Bill, but to me, if they thought it through and decided that "Christian Muslim" might be a reasonable nomenclature... that's OK with me.

 

With or without your disapproval, Bill, people are free to use language flexibly. It's one of those pesky human freedoms: to push the limits of the range of meanings of words. Personally, I find it interesting when they do that, and I try to explore what thoughts they might actually be expressing. You seem interested in only saying, "They can't do that." -- Well, they can. And they have. So if there's something to be learned, let's learn it.

[Celia]

Certain family member sent us a gift. Long story short several of us see cultish like stuff going on. Now the present is a book on tape by someone who is a pastor and a rabbi. Now we are getting a little concerned how much money/time they may be funneling into this. So can one person be a rabbi and a pastor?

 

 

As someone who's been on the receiving end of family thinking my beliefs are "cultish", I just want to say to tread with caution. It hurts alot to be told have that word thrown at you, when you see your beliefs and way of life as reasonable. Talk to them about the beliefs, based on something you have in common (like, if you both believe the Bible in inspired, use that as the basis of your discussion). Read the book, and agree or disagree with it based on what it says. You have an avenue for discussion here.. don't make it about money or semantics.

[Spy Car]

 

I agree that currently, in American culture, both "Rabbi" and "Pastor" are used as titles which tend to imply qualified, approved congregational leadership in two different faiths. That doesn't mean that a person isn't free to use them to mean something else, if that 'something else' is within a reasonable range of meanings. It is quite reasonable for a Christian to adopt the title "Rabbi" if that Christian is indeed a religious teacher.

 

I must vociferously disagree. Such use is designed to mislead, and is fraudulent usurpation of credentials and religious authority.

 

 

I thought I said and emphasized that one can not have a complete Christian theology and a complete Muslim theology. The antithesis is definitely there on the question of the divinity of Jesus (and the trinity of the Godhead). I fully agree with that.

 

After I agreed with you, I moved on to other thoughts. Thoughts like, under what circumstances might a designation like "Christian Muslim" seem reasonable?

 

Under no circumstances is "Christian Muslim" reasonable.

 

Here are my thoughts.

 

What happens when a Muslim accepts Jesus as Lord and God? Obviously they discard their belief former that Jesus is not God, but other than that, how much of their theology and practice is allowed to retain a resemblance to their earlier belief system? Are they allowed to worship in ways that look Muslim? Or do they have to worship in ways that look western? Are they allowed to think about God the Father in a way that resembles a former belief in Allah? Or are they required to think about God the Father in a way that resembles cultural constructs such as classical Greek philosophy?

 

I don't know what you mean by "in ways that look Muslim." It would be entirely inauthentic for a person who believes Jesus is God (or a portion thereof) to describe him or herself as a Muslim. If they persisted in using the trappings of Islam to practice Christianity they would find themselves in a heap of trouble with the Muslim community, for such behavior is an outrage in Islam. Surely you understand this.

 

Anybody can attempt to invent a mashed-up faith, but it is unlikely to be well received by people who practice authentic and established religions. Like I said, Queen of Sheba.

 

How does such a person describe themself if they have faith in Jesus, rejecting the Muslim view of Jesus, but retaining a somewhat-muslim-but-nothing-that-contradicts-the-Bible worldview?[

 

It is not possible. A Muslim must accept Muhammad as the seal of the prophets and God's revelation to him through the Angel Jibreel (Gabriel) in the Qur'an as authentic, or one is not a Muslim. And one can not accept a divine Jesus and the message of the Qur'an. This is pretty basic stuff.

 

I don't know if there is a perfect description that would satisfy you Bill, but to me, if they thought it through and decided that "Christian Muslim" might be a reasonable nomenclature... that's OK with me.

 

An accurate description to me would be "a former (or ex-) Muslim who had converted to Christianity."

 

With or without your disapproval, Bill, people are free to use language flexibly.

 

And when they do so to mislead or commit fraud, people will object.

 

It's one of those pesky human freedoms: to push the limits of the range of meanings of words. Personally, I find it interesting when they do that, and I try to explore what thoughts they might actually be expressing. You seem interested in only saying, "They can't do that." -- Well, they can. And they have. So if there's something to be learned, let's learn it.

 

 

It is not a human freedom to present oneself as something one is not. People claiming to be Rabbis, Preists, or Pastors—when they are no such thing—are being manifestly dishonest.

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

Still curious on the name of the book... :toetap05:

[itsheresomewhere]

As someone who's been on the receiving end of family thinking my beliefs are "cultish", I just want to say to tread with caution. It hurts alot to be told have that word thrown at you, when you see your beliefs and way of life as reasonable. Talk to them about the beliefs, based on something you have in common (like, if you both believe the Bible in inspired, use that as the basis of your discussion). Read the book, and agree or disagree with it based on what it says. You have an avenue for discussion here.. don't make it about money or semantics.

 

 

 

Trust me this is cultish.