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The Joe Paterno Issue


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So DD had a Girl Scout "dance" today at our local camp. And I wasn't an official volunteer so I tried to blend into the background to play "Words with Friends" and let DD spread her wings a bit.

 

I wasn't part of the conversation the two moms and the groundskeeper were having; I was sort of off to the left. But there must have been a game today. The groundskeeper (70ish man) whined that it was no fun for him to watch the game since it wouldn't count for anything and he had a hard time knowing Joe got such a bad rap. The other two moms nodded, one spoke up a teeny bit but the other seemed to agree with the old guy. I'm not sure if it was true agreement or placating. But I was a little surprised to hear that opinion stated at a GIRL SCOUT camp. Hello! Anyone home? :confused:

 

And I know that even my own father thought JP was crucified because, "What was he supposed to do? He reported it!" and JP just couldn't be expected to do more because it was so heinous, how could any rational person react? (Insert this face: :glare: here into my conversations with my own 70ish father)

 

As far as Penn State, I believe they should have lost their entire athletics program permanently. They proved fairly well that they cannot manage it. But then there were would be a college existing solely for scholastics and we cannot have that! Without football, what's the point of college anymore??

 

DH and I are not sports people. Neither of us gave a rat's patootie about any of our college sporting teams. I would almost rather be shot in the head than sit in a stadium with 30,000 scremaing people drunk on Bud beer. So that is probably coloring my attitude about college sports too. It's just hard for me to give a %$!%$# about some stupid trophy when multiple kids will suffer potentially life long consequences from sexual abuse.

 

For the record, the group meets at a local school - NOT at this camp. And the troop leader wasn't there for these comments. The assistant was and she sort of called the old guy out but not as vociferously as I would have preferred. And I'm a room volunteer and haven't left DD with any of these people yet.

 

The whole conversation made me think, "Ok. Overnight camp here is out of the picture until this geezer kicks it at least! What would your reaction be?

 

But it made me wonder, the mom that seemed to agree with the old guy is a really, really nice woman. And she seems very protective and loving of her children. I've only ever discussed JP here and with a couple of close, like-minded friends and once my father. Does the "general society" think JP got a raw deal? Really??

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No, I'm horrified by what happened and I think what Joe did (didn't do) was inexcusable, but I wouldn't have called the old guy out vociferously either. I would have spoken up a bit, but I wouldn't have considered it worth arguing over either. IMO, that never changes people's minds and just has the potential to make things ugly for everyone.

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No, I'm horrified by what happened and I think what Joe did (didn't do) was inexcusable, but I wouldn't have called the old guy out vociferously either. I would have spoken up a bit, but I wouldn't have considered it worth arguing over either. IMO, that never changes people's minds and just has the potential to make things ugly for everyone.

 

:iagree: It's not a hill I'd be willing to die on either. I'd probably say I disagree and leave it at that. Everyone is untitled to their opinion, no matter how clueless it is.

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So DD had a Girl Scout "dance" today at our local camp. And I wasn't an official volunteer so I tried to blend into the background to play "Words with Friends" and let DD spread her wings a bit.

 

I wasn't part of the conversation the two moms and the groundskeeper were having; I was sort of off to the left. But there must have been a game today. The groundskeeper (70ish man) whined that it was no fun for him to watch the game since it wouldn't count for anything and he had a hard time knowing Joe got such a bad rap. The other two moms nodded, one spoke up a teeny bit but the other seemed to agree with the old guy. I'm not sure if it was true agreement or placating. But I was a little surprised to hear that opinion stated at a GIRL SCOUT camp. Hello! Anyone home? :confused:

 

And I know that even my own father thought JP was crucified because, "What was he supposed to do? He reported it!" and JP just couldn't be expected to do more because it was so heinous, how could any rational person react? (Insert this face: :glare: here into my conversations with my own 70ish father)

 

As far as Penn State, I believe they should have lost their entire athletics program permanently. They proved fairly well that they cannot manage it. But then there were would be a college existing solely for scholastics and we cannot have that! Without football, what's the point of college anymore??

 

DH and I are not sports people. Neither of us gave a rat's patootie about any of our college sporting teams. I would almost rather be shot in the head than sit in a stadium with 30,000 scremaing people drunk on Bud beer. So that is probably coloring my attitude about college sports too. It's just hard for me to give a %$!%$# about some stupid trophy when multiple kids will suffer potentially life long consequences from sexual abuse.

 

For the record, the group meets at a local school - NOT at this camp. And the troop leader wasn't there for these comments. The assistant was and she sort of called the old guy out but not as vociferously as I would have preferred. And I'm a room volunteer and haven't left DD with any of these people yet.

 

The whole conversation made me think, "Ok. Overnight camp here is out of the picture until this geezer kicks it at least! What would your reaction be?

 

But it made me wonder, the mom that seemed to agree with the old guy is a really, really nice woman. And she seems very protective and loving of her children. I've only ever discussed JP here and with a couple of close, like-minded friends and once my father. Does the "general society" think JP got a raw deal? Really??

 

meant to add in my previous post-

To the bolded part: I probably wouldn't go that extreme over one overheard conversation.

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meant to add in my previous post-

To the bolded part: I probably wouldn't go that extreme over one overheard conversation.

 

Ok. I needed to hear that. Thank you.

 

This just seems to be to be such a weird attitude for someone who has basically dedicated his life to serving children. (His wife has been a GS director for more than 30 years and he's gone with her as they've traveled the country doing GS stuff).

 

But how can you watch a bunch of 8 year old kids just being themselves and not want to KILL anyone who would think of molesting them!!??

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I read the book about this and thought about it a lot.

 

I believe that Joe Paterno was well aware of this situation from the time of the first report. It was a 95 page police report that "somehow" the district attorney decided not to pursue. "Joepa" hired the men who he "reported" this to, and was basically in charge of Penn State for all practical purposes. He was paid more than the college president and had more power in a tangible way.

 

Like Canye West, I think Joe Paterno believed he was doing the right thing to cover this up. I think he believed that the kids abused were never going to have a good life anyway and their suffering should not be allowed to intrude upon his important Penn State students. Like Canye West, when everyone started to yell, "boo, you are wrong" he realized what he did was wrong. But that was too late.

 

I feel that every child molested after the original report was as much the fault of the district attorney and Penn State, as Sandusky. They were equally to blame because they refused to take action knowing he would do this again.

 

I myself and glad "Joepa" lost his records, it would be wrong to let his reputation remain untouched.

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Gonna stir the pot a little bit here. I have family that live literally just over the mountain from Penn State and there is apparently so much more information that goes higher than just the university. What the general public around the country know just skims the surface of what actually happened with the cover-up. It was said, by several different family members, that even the governor of PA was on the board of trustees during the time and was made aware of it back then, but he's keeping quiet about it now.

 

The DA disappeared and tossed his laptop in a creek somewhere - which was recovered and the police will soon have the technology to recover the information on it. (This I also read about in an article, so it's not just family heresay).

 

Some of my cousins said that JP was an egocentric, power hungry jerk (his wife, too), and should have done more, but that since he died, he's become more of a scapegoat.

 

However, all that to say they (my family) are very upset about the sanctions from NCAA. The current students of Penn St had nothing to do with the scandal and shouldn't be punished. The towns/townships around State College are already recessed communities and survive economically with the tourism generated by the games. If people don't attend the games, these areas don't get supported. It's not just the university that is effected by these sanctions - it's entire communities.

 

Now, having said all that - I hope they bury Sandusky under the jail. He's a creep, a monster, and something should have been done about him a long time ago. I believe it's the people who were involved (and I'm sure there are more than just JP) who should be punished, not the current students. But I have a feeling, from the articles I read while visiting PA this summer, and from talking to cousins, that it's gotten quite political and it'll only get bigger.

 

To the OP: I can understand your frustration with overhearing that, but I agree with the other posters - I wouldn't base your decision on the overnight trip on a single overheard conversation. You said the other mom seemed like a really nice person, so why would a single disagreeing opinion change that? In light of the current political season, I wouldn't have very many friends if I let one differing opinion dictate with whom I was friends, or the activities in which my children participated.

 

As for your question about the general society and JP - from what I've heard both in PA and at home, it's the current student body of Penn State who got a raw deal, not the coach.

 

(Edited because I can't proofread first thing in the morning :P)

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There was an excellent article in the Chronicle of Higher Education recently, by a Penn State professor who held a chair (a named professorship) endowed by the Paterno family. The article digs deeply into all facets of what happened: the events, the Freeh report, the public reactions.

 

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I am not an expert on the case, but from what I have heard, there was very conflicting testimony from the guy who reported the matter to Joe Paterno. And although we as modern moms would have reacted differently, the fact is that Paterno didn't turn a blind eye. He didn't think it was OK to molest boys. And also, it is clear that certain actions taken against him were motivated out of self-interest more than doing the right thing. From what I read, he was fired via a very brief, cold phone call. Obviously a matter of political expediency. Nobody comes out of this smelling like a rose. And many people involved still have their jobs.

 

Nobody is getting a complete picture. I can't blame anyone for believing whichever part of it they heard or whichever seems most logical to them given the circumstances.

 

There have been so many times I've been beaten down for saying "but he did ___," only to be vindicated later. It is natural for people to want to think the best of someone they've grown to admire. It doesn't make the believer a bad person.

 

I would not engage in that conversation and I would not punish anyone over their views on Joe Paterno.

 

Finally, it is likely that you are giving someone the benefit of the doubt, perhaps mistakenly, in your own life. Hopefully nobody will hold that against you.

 

FTR, I'm not a sports person either. I have never attended a college sports event. I'm just cautious about other people telling me how I should feel.

Edited by SKL
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Ok. I needed to hear that. Thank you.

 

This just seems to be to be such a weird attitude for someone who has basically dedicated his life to serving children. (His wife has been a GS director for more than 30 years and he's gone with her as they've traveled the country doing GS stuff).

 

But how can you watch a bunch of 8 year old kids just being themselves and not want to KILL anyone who would think of molesting them!!??

 

JP didn't molest them. Sandusky did. The "old geezer" was offering an opinion about JP. He did not comment (that you posted about) on what he felt should happen, have happened, or happened to Sandusky.

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There was an excellent article in the Chronicle of Higher Education recently, by a Penn State professor who held a chair (a named professorship) endowed by the Paterno family. The article digs deeply into all facets of what happened: the events, the Freeh report, the public reactions.

 

Thanks for posting that. It was interesting.

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I don't think it's much different than saying, "OJ didn't do it."

 

It doesn't really have any impact on his own behavior, it's just an opinion.

 

Gosh, I totally disagree. I don't think the OP should put so much stock in what this man says to avoid this camp until he's gone, but having such an opinion IMO actually does say a lot about you (general). I would certainly be concerned enough to purposely avoid that man when possible.

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As for your question about the general society and JP - from what I've heard both in PA and at home, it's the current student body of Penn State who got a raw deal, not the coach.

 

 

 

Eh. I've heard this a lot. The current student body has certainly been punished. I think it's a lesson in who you hitch your wagon to. Nobody seems to want to learn it.

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Gosh, I totally disagree. I don't think the OP should put so much stock in what this man says to avoid this camp until he's gone, but having such an opinion IMO actually does say a lot about you (general). I would certainly be concerned enough to purposely avoid that man when possible.

 

:iagree::iagree: Pretty much!

 

And the other mom called me last night because it bugged her too. I get that some people think molestation isn't that big a deal. But I do. And if I KNOW that you won't go to the mat to protect my kids while they are in your care, then you don't get my kids in your care. It's that simple.

 

So I have no problems hanging out with my daughter at this camp. But would I drop her off and drive away? Uh, NOPE. I now know that 50% of the team that maintains this camp may have proclivities towards protecting the molestor for the sake of some agency's reputation, not the child. I cannot protect every child in the world. Wish I could!

But I can protect MINE.

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I sort of suspect the geezer identifies with JP and hasn't looked too deeply into the issue. He just sees another older man who's devoted his life to kids getting a bum rap and hasn't informed himself enough or dismisses information that counters that view.

 

I don't think it reflects anything about the man's propensity to harm ids or allow others to harm kids.

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I can certainly understand the older guy's views on watching the game. What fun is it if you know the outcome? And even if they win, we know the outcome. It's just as if they didn't play.

 

And I can understand his being upset at one of his lifelong heroes being thrown to the dogs. (I am in no way stating any opinion here.) We all have people we admire, and if they get into trouble, we tend to take their side of it. That does not mean we think that which they have been accused is or is not right. For example, I admire Lance Armstrong for his hard work and his fight and drive. And I think he got railroaded. BUT, that does not mean I will go take steroids to enhance my performance (besides, I don't think they would really help me with housekeeping or homeschooling ;) ). Just an example.

 

The moms who were drawn into the discussion with the older guy might just have been making vague comments to avoid a fight.

 

Think about your dad. PRIME example. Your dad thinks Paterno was wronged. Will you leave your kids with your dad? And do you get into a knock down drag out with your dad, or do you respond somewhat vaguely, in order to keep peace?

 

These are just my thoughts based on the original post. They do not, in any way reflect my thoughts on the Penn State mess. Just on the post and the conversation about which she is asking.

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:iagree::iagree: Pretty much!

 

And the other mom called me last night because it bugged her too. I get that some people think molestation isn't that big a deal. But I do. And if I KNOW that you won't go to the mat to protect my kids while they are in your care, then you don't get my kids in your care. It's that simple.

 

So I have no problems hanging out with my daughter at this camp. But would I drop her off and drive away? Uh, NOPE. I now know that 50% of the team that maintains this camp may have proclivities towards protecting the molestor for the sake of some agency's reputation, not the child. I cannot protect every child in the world. Wish I could!

But I can protect MINE.

 

Are you serious?

 

 

I sort of suspect the geezer identifies with JP and hasn't looked too deeply into the issue. He just sees another older man who's devoted his life to kids getting a bum rap and hasn't informed himself enough or dismisses information that counters that view.

 

I don't think it reflects anything about the man's propensity to harm ids or allow others to harm kids.

 

:iagree::iagree:

 

I had a hard time following your first post because I thought you meant the girls at the camp had a game. You meant there must have been a Penn State football game and the old guy was bummed that it didn't count toward their record and felt like Joe Paterno got a bad rap. I don't think that means he is a child molester. I think it means he's an old Penn State fan making small talk.

 

In our business, I deal with retirees daily. Many of them have no filter.

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Are you serious?

.

 

 

Yep. A lot of men of my father's generation think we are making the problem "worse" by calling so much attention to it instead fo teaching our children (particularly our boys) to just suck it up and move on. My father actually believes JP should have been left alone because his generation didn't get that child molestation was so wrong. :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:

And it was so horrific, no sane adult could have been expected to respond as "perfectly as the media would have liked."

 

My dad went to an all boys Catholic school in NYC. He said there was a priest everyone knew not to get stuck in a little room with. He thinks this priest "helped" kids by giving them the skills to get away and/or not get caught by him in the first place. :confused::confused:

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Yep. A lot of men of my father's generation think we are making the problem "worse" by calling so much attention to it instead fo teaching our children (particularly our boys) to just suck it up and move on. My father actually believes JP should have been left alone because his generation didn't get that child molestation was so wrong. :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:

And it was so horrific, no sane adult could have been expected to respond as "perfectly as the media would have liked."

 

My dad went to an all boys Catholic school in NYC. He said there was a priest everyone knew not to get stuck in a little room with. He thinks this priest "helped" kids by giving them the skills to get away and/or not get caught by him in the first place. :confused::confused:

 

:confused: But you can't extrapolate (accurately) the "old geezer's" perspective on MOLESTATION/RAPE based on his opinions about how JP and Penn State were dealt with.

 

It's a huge leap to assume he'd not protect kids or that he's in any way a danger, including a danger in being passive.

 

The thinking in this thread is anathema to me.

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A lot of people for opinions with little knowledge and protect those opinions as if they were treasured knowledge. Many, many people do not want to see JP in a bad light. My dh wanted to believe JP was innocent, but the facts are different. Was JP a scapegoat? Absolutely, but that does not make taking away his championships wrong, it was the right thing to do. As far as the current sanctions against Penn State, I think they are not unfair given that many people currently in authority there probably did aid the cover-up to some degree.

 

I do understand what Joann is saying as far as extrapolating that the old man in the original post sympathizes with child molesters is wrong. The old man may not sympathize with child molesters at all, he may be uninformed as to the extent that JP covered up for Sandusky. But, he may very well be of the generation that believes molestation should be hushed up and isn't that bad. There are plenty of people who feel that way.

 

In my home town a man started a video arcade and then took some pictures of young boys that he should not have. A group of housewives took baseball bats to his arcade at "high noon" and destroyed it and beat him up so badly that he took several weeks in intensive care to recover. When the state police came to investigate, strangely, no one had seen anything. So, not everyone of the previous generation was fine with molestation. The child protection laws used to be very weak and people got used to dealing with things themselves, rightly or wrongly.

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Ok. I needed to hear that. Thank you.

 

This just seems to be to be such a weird attitude for someone who has basically dedicated his life to serving children. (His wife has been a GS director for more than 30 years and he's gone with her as they've traveled the country doing GS stuff).

 

But how can you watch a bunch of 8 year old kids just being themselves and not want to KILL anyone who would think of molesting them!!??

 

Well, Paterno didn't molest them. He was just an old guy who stuck his head in the sand. You've got to understand that this was a common reaction in the older generation. Deny, head in sand.

 

Sandusky, the perp, is in prison for life.

Edited by TranquilMind
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:confused: But you can't extrapolate (accurately) the "old geezer's" perspective on MOLESTATION/RAPE based on his opinions about how JP and Penn State were dealt with.

 

It's a huge leap to assume he'd not protect kids or that he's in any way a danger, including a danger in being passive.

 

The thinking in this thread is anathema to me.

 

EXACTLY. These conclusions simply can't be drawn from this overheard interaction.

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Yep. A lot of men of my father's generation think we are making the problem "worse" by calling so much attention to it instead fo teaching our children (particularly our boys) to just suck it up and move on. My father actually believes JP should have been left alone because his generation didn't get that child molestation was so wrong. :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:

And it was so horrific, no sane adult could have been expected to respond as "perfectly as the media would have liked."

 

My dad went to an all boys Catholic school in NYC. He said there was a priest everyone knew not to get stuck in a little room with. He thinks this priest "helped" kids by giving them the skills to get away and/or not get caught by him in the first place. :confused::confused:

 

I know you think your dad is weird, but yes....all of this is very common thinking for the age group. My parents were a lot older.

 

And my husband went to an all boys Catholic school, so yeah....

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Shannon in TN: Gonna stir the pot a little bit here. I have family that live literally just over the mountain from Penn State and there is apparently so much more information that goes higher than just the university. What the general public around the country know just skims the surface of what actually happened with the cover-up.

 

The DA disappeared and tossed his laptop in a creek somewhere - which was recovered and the police will soon have the technology to recover the information on it. (This I also read about in an article, so it's not just family heresay).

 

 

However, all that to say they (my family) are very upset about the sanctions from NCAA. The current students of Penn St had nothing to do with the scandal and shouldn't be punished.

 

 

Hmmm. Interesting backstory. It will all come out some day.

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So I have no problems hanging out with my daughter at this camp. But would I drop her off and drive away? Uh, NOPE. I now know that 50% of the team that maintains this camp may have proclivities towards protecting the molestor for the sake of some agency's reputation, not the child. .

 

You absolutely cannot draw this conclusion whatsoever from what you heard.

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In my home town a man started a video arcade and then took some pictures of young boys that he should not have. A group of housewives took baseball bats to his arcade at "high noon" and destroyed it and beat him up so badly that he took several weeks in intensive care to recover. When the state police came to investigate, strangely, no one had seen anything. So, not everyone of the previous generation was fine with molestation. The child protection laws used to be very weak and people got used to dealing with things themselves, rightly or wrongly.

 

Yeah - my dad is in his seventies and there is no way he thinks molesters should ever see the light of day again.

 

That said, I think he may have some sympathy for Paterno because of the reasons I mentioned in my post above. Paterno was not the molestor; Paterno did report; there were conflicting stories from many sources; reaction to Sandusky's illegal activity was not the sum total of Paterno's legacy.

 

Anyway, isn't Paterno dead now? He no longer has any opportunity to defend himself.

 

Also, to the point about whether victims should "suck it up." I know some victims of really heinous child molestation. They would agree that it is not helpful to sensationalize these incidents. Bad enough that it happened; let's not go on about how "the child's life is forever ruined." Nobody's life needs to be defined by one part of said life. The victims may or may not need counseling and understanding, but their lives are not destroyed. It is probably detrimental to the victims to make such a suggestion. Especially considering that most of the time, the molestor is someone the child loves and/or identifies with.

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In my home town a man started a video arcade and then took some pictures of young boys that he should not have. A group of housewives took baseball bats to his arcade at "high noon" and destroyed it and beat him up so badly that he took several weeks in intensive care to recover. When the state police came to investigate, strangely, no one had seen anything. So, not everyone of the previous generation was fine with molestation. The child protection laws used to be very weak and people got used to dealing with things themselves, rightly or wrongly.

 

Yes, lots of vigilantes back in the day. Good reminder!

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You absolutely cannot draw this conclusion whatsoever from what you heard.

 

True. But you cannot conclude the opposite with certainty either. And since I don't ever intend to walk up to this old guy and say, "So what do you think should happen to child molestors?" I'll go with what I KNOW.

 

I wish we could raise JP from the dead so we could kick him around some more. He got off EASY, in my opinion. He was in a position to made a ton of noise and didn't because he wanted to protect his "legacy" and/or his income. He could have gone to the press in a nanosecond and brought the whole thing to a screeching halt YEARS ago. Instead, he choose to protect football. That's not a hero. That's a villian.

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Frankly, I think you are conflating your dad, whose views you know to be seriously awful, with this old man, whose views you know very little about.

 

I am the last person to show any mercy to child rapists or the people who fail to act in the face of abuse. I won't even use the word molestation because I think it makes it sound like child sex abuse and rape is somehow less of a crime. But even I would not worry too much about this guy's opinion. Joe Paterno is dead and I do think that while is bears serious responsibility, that he is neon use as a scapegoat to distract from the crimes and failures of others who are still living. This guy could believe as you assume but he hasn't really said enough for you to know.

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However, all that to say they (my family) are very upset about the sanctions from NCAA. The current students of Penn St had nothing to do with the scandal and shouldn't be punished. The towns/townships around State College are already recessed communities and survive economically with the tourism generated by the games. If people don't attend the games, these areas don't get supported. It's not just the university that is effected by these sanctions - it's entire communities.

 

Current students are rarely at fault when sanctions are used, so that doesn't wash with me. I think the NCAA did their best to make transferring and getting out of their commitment easier so it had as little impact as possible.

 

I feel for the regular people in those townships who will suffer for this but not the law enforcement community or the people in charge at PSU who looked the other way. Then there are those who act like nothing happened and PSU and the Paternos are the victims and they deserve whatever comes IMO.

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As far as Penn State, I believe they should have lost their entire athletics program permanently. They proved fairly well that they cannot manage it. But then there were would be a college existing solely for scholastics and we cannot have that! Without football, what's the point of college anymore??

 

DH and I are not sports people <snip>

 

We are sports people, and I completely agree with you. I completely support the NCAA sanctions, especially this assessment: "an unprecedented failure of institutional integrity leading to a culture in which a football program was held in higher esteem than the values of the institution, the values of the NCAA, the values of higher education, and most disturbingly the values of human decency." My only complaint with the sanctions is that (a) they should have been worse and (b) there should be a clause that if the Paterno family and Penn State don't humbly accept the sanctions and stop crying about their victimhood, the sanctions will increase in severity. I just don't see how people have the unmitigated gall to cry victim given what went on for so many years. They should be ashamed and embarrassed and trying to figure out what they can do to help the victims. Make that your new legacy for crying out loud.

 

I also think that the people in law enforcement who are shown to have had some knowledge of this and didn't do their d*** jobs should be fired.

 

I wish we could raise JP from the dead so we could kick him around some more. He got off EASY, in my opinion. He was in a position to made a ton of noise and didn't because he wanted to protect his "legacy" and/or his income. He could have gone to the press in a nanosecond and brought the whole thing to a screeching halt YEARS ago. Instead, he choose to protect football. That's not a hero. That's a villian.

 

I agree with this 1000%. It's monstrous. He could have protected children and he didn't. I don't care what his reason was, I don't care what other things he accomplished in his life, he is the lowest form of scum out there, only a small step above the scum that did the abuse. And that scum got off easy too, he should have more than 30 years and no opportunity to speak to the press to get his vile messages out, and he should be making some form of restitution to the victims.

 

Current students are rarely at fault when sanctions are used, so that doesn't wash with me. I think the NCAA did their best to make transferring and getting out of their commitment easier so it had as little impact as possible.

 

I feel for the regular people in those townships who will suffer for this but not the law enforcement community or the people in charge at PSU who looked the other way. Then there are those who act like nothing happened and PSU and the Paternos are the victims and they deserve whatever comes IMO.

 

:iagree: There are way too many trying to minimize it.

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Yep. A lot of men of my father's generation think we are making the problem "worse" by calling so much attention to it instead fo teaching our children (particularly our boys) to just suck it up and move on. .

 

My father was born in 1909 and was very hot about the issue. When he found out about Horatio Alger's actions, he got rid of his is collect of early editions ... a complete set, I believe. He was dis GUST ed.

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Yep. A lot of men of my father's generation think we are making the problem "worse" by calling so much attention to it instead fo teaching our children (particularly our boys) to just suck it up and move on. My father actually believes JP should have been left alone because his generation didn't get that child molestation was so wrong. :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh:

And it was so horrific, no sane adult could have been expected to respond as "perfectly as the media would have liked."

 

My dad went to an all boys Catholic school in NYC. He said there was a priest everyone knew not to get stuck in a little room with. He thinks this priest "helped" kids by giving them the skills to get away and/or not get caught by him in the first place. :confused::confused:

 

I have to wonder if familial thoughts on this issue aren't part of the problem here. My father is in his seventies and I know well his thoughts on JP ("piece of sh*t"). Since I was young, I've known that he thought abusers, and anyone that covered up for them, should be punished to the furthest extent of the law. That is my experience and I'll admit to naivete that there is actually a generation of men that believe otherwise. I've personally never heard a man state it. My dad retired from the state, after working in the prison system, so I'm sure that had something to do with it.

 

If I heard my dad say the things yours did, I suppose I could have heard what your "camp guy" said differently. As it stands, I still wouldn't jump to conclusions based on the conversation you overheard.

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True. But you cannot conclude the opposite with certainty either. And since I don't ever intend to walk up to this old guy and say, "So what do you think should happen to child molestors?" I'll go with what I KNOW.

 

I wish we could raise JP from the dead so we could kick him around some more. He got off EASY, in my opinion. He was in a position to made a ton of noise and didn't because he wanted to protect his "legacy" and/or his income. He could have gone to the press in a nanosecond and brought the whole thing to a screeching halt YEARS ago. Instead, he choose to protect football. That's not a hero. That's a villian.

 

He lost his life, his legacy, his identity, his dignity, and reputation.

 

I agree that after McCreary witness the rape not one other child should have ever, ever, ever been in the company of Sandusky. Sandusky should have been investigated and charged, and put away for life back then.

 

JP and many others are part of the momentum that lead to many other victims; only some of which we know.

 

But in the end, JP got his karma; he lost it all.

 

Regardless, this poor old geezer being dicussed is getting a heap of illogical assumption thrown his direction.

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I don't get the age thing. My dad is 70, Catholic school educated for most of his childhood, and if he saw abuse like that he would personally take his cane to the abuser's skull. I think it is a stretch to say that older men are catagorically somehow ok with sexual abuse of boys or girls or anyone.

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Since we're going to accuse someone of not being safe with kids over a fairly common belief held about a matter the man has no personal knowledge of, why not just assume the same of every person you encounter? Everywhere you go there are people who think Paterno was/is a scapegoat. Why dig any deeper? Just don't trust anyone.

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He lost his life, his legacy, his identity, his dignity, and reputation.

 

He died from cancer, NOT this. He should have died when a parent got to beat the crap out of him with a baseball bat.

 

And I don't think they lost any money over this. So he didn't really lose too much, especially since there are people like this old guy who think he got a bum rap.

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I agree. I'm not violent enough to hit him with a bat, but yeah, big deal. He just dropped dead. I've never died that I recall, but it seems easy enough. :tongue_smilie:

 

I don't think I'm violent enough either however, if I found out it was one of my kids... that might be a different story!

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He died from cancer, NOT this. He should have died when a parent got to beat the crap out of him with a baseball bat.

 

And I don't think they lost any money over this. So he didn't really lose too much, especially since there are people like this old guy who think he got a bum rap.

 

I believe the death was accelerated by the loss I mentioned: reputation, dignity, legacy..........

 

Look, I don't get it. I think the leap made in the OP was huge, and inaccurate. I'm not a JP fan. *shrug* I'm not a McQuery fan. I'm not a big sports fan. I've posted numerous times how I think the people who "knew" were a part of the momentum that allowed additional victims.

 

I just think Paterno got karma'd.

 

And I don't think anything bad of "old geezer."

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I believe the death was accelerated by the loss I mentioned: reputation, dignity, legacy..........

 

Look, I don't get it. I think the leap made in the OP was huge, and inaccurate. I'm not a JP fan. *shrug* I'm not a McQuery fan. I'm not a big sports fan. I've posted numerous times how I think the people who "knew" were a part of the momentum that allowed additional victims.

 

I just think Paterno got karma'd.

 

And I don't think anything bad of "old geezer."

 

 

I don't think anything "bad" about the old guy. I am glad to know his opinion on this child molestation case. Because that helps me formulate my plan for my daughter in his vicinity.

 

To me, thinking that someone who KNEW he was employing an active child molestor and who gave it a feeble attempt to stop it, shows a general lack of good discernment. And no, we tend not to have adults without good judgment around the kids. It's a side effect luxury of homeschooling and having a SAHM.

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Dh and I are 4-H leaders and if there was a conversation like this at one of our 4-H meetings frankly,we'd probably politely, but firmly, put an end to the discussion. It's a volatile topic and volatile topics get out of hand easily.

 

I wouldn't be making assumptions about the people having the conversation because there would be no way to know how much they've actually ascertained about the situation, the Freeh report, etc. I think as a general rule, the more informed people are, the more anti-JoPa, anti-Penn State establishment they are. However, a number of people barely know anything except a 30 second sound bite on CNN as they passed the channel on the way to something else.

 

Now, if the conversation devolved within my hearing or by direct report of witnesses to some person saying, "Meh, the victims just need to get over it," or worse, then you bet, there would be a call to 4-H leadership since one would have to consider the wisdom of allowing such a person to volunteer for overnight excursions since they would be directly charged with reporting.

 

Faith

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I don't think anything "bad" about the old guy. I am glad to know his opinion on this child molestation case. Because that helps me formulate my plan for my daughter in his vicinity.

 

To me, thinking that someone who KNEW he was employing an active child molestor and who gave it a feeble attempt to stop it, shows a general lack of good discernment. And no, we tend not to have adults without good judgment around the kids. It's a side effect luxury of homeschooling and having a SAHM.

 

:glare:

 

IMO, you are extrapolating a lot from the interaction with Mr. Geezer. He thought JP's consequences were not appropriate. That is the only thing you can accurately report. The rest is leap, conjecture, and assumption.

 

Mr. Geezer is NOT JP. Unless I read the OP wrong, Mr. Geezer isn't employing anyone, let alone a known molester.

 

I think that your visceral reaction to the history of rape, cover up, and abuse in the Penn State scandal his interferred with your usual sound thinking.

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I wasn't part of the conversation the two moms and the groundskeeper were having; I was sort of off to the left. But there must have been a game today. The groundskeeper (70ish man) whined that it was no fun for him to watch the game since it wouldn't count for anything and he had a hard time knowing Joe got such a bad rap. The other two moms nodded, one spoke up a teeny bit but the other seemed to agree with the old guy. I'm not sure if it was true agreement or placating. But I was a little surprised to hear that opinion stated at a GIRL SCOUT camp. Hello! Anyone home? :confused:

 

??

 

I went back to the OP. This is the only thing reported.

 

Nope, I don't see ANYTHING that suggests that Mr. Geezer is a risk to young children or that he wouldn't protect or fight for them.

 

I think your reaction is off base.

 

To answer the question at the bottom of your OP, I don't think the "general public" has spent much time actually researching the case. Blended into the reaction is the reality that there are students (and their families) who had nothing to do with the events who are now hurt by it. I'm not sure the general public thinks Paterno got a "bad rap" en masse, but I don't think people are focused on the issue in most ways; it would not be a productive use of their time.

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I don't think anything "bad" about the old guy. I am glad to know his opinion on this child molestation case. Because that helps me formulate my plan for my daughter in his vicinity.

 

 

 

I'm sorry, but this is making me angry. It's this kind of thinking that prevents good dads, grandpas, and other male role models from being able to do normal, healthy things with kids - to the detriment of all.

 

You don't know that guy from Adam. He (and the anti-Paterno person next to him) could be a saintly, loving grandpa or a child molester. I don't decide my daughter's activities or whom they're with based on whether I agree with their views on what is seen in the popular media.

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Dh and I are 4-H leaders and if there was a conversation like this at one of our 4-H meetings frankly,we'd probably politely, but firmly, put an end to the discussion. It's a volatile topic and volatile topics get out of hand easily.

 

I wouldn't be making assumptions about the people having the conversation because there would be no way to know how much they've actually ascertained about the situation, the Freeh report, etc. I think as a general rule, the more informed people are, the more anti-JoPa, anti-Penn State establishment they are. However, a number of people barely know anything except a 30 second sound bite on CNN as they passed the channel on the way to something else.

 

Now, if the conversation devolved within my hearing or by direct report of witnesses to some person saying, "Meh, the victims just need to get over it," or worse, then you bet, there would be a call to 4-H leadership since one would have to consider the wisdom of allowing such a person to volunteer for overnight excursions since they would be directly charged with reporting.

 

Faith

 

I don't agree with the bolded. In my experience, those who have actually read the full Freeh report are less vehemently against JP than those who have read the summary (or worse - summaries of the summary).

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