Do you ever think the economy will recover?

[Jane in NC]

What most people do not understand is that in the financial services industry, year-end bonuses are really more like sales commissions. They serve to make up for a relatively low base pay .

 

People hear "bonus" and they start thinking of it being like in most other industries where a bonus is an unusual one-time reward for exceptional performance. But in finance, they are like sales commissions in that they allow the company to pay a relatively low base salary and then make up for it with an amount that can vary from year to year.

 

Since the government started interfering in bonus payments, Wall St. firms have had to shift a larger portion of the total comp from bonus to base. My DH's base is now nearly double what it was in 2008, but the overall total comp is similar because he is now getting a much smaller bonus. While that results in a more stable year-to-year income for the employee, it reduces the flexibility of employers to deal with changing business conditions.

 

Could you define a "relatively low base pay"? Also, for the sake of comparison, the educational level of people in these positions would be at least an MBA, right?

[Stacy in NJ]

Could you define a "relatively low base pay"? Also, for the sake of comparison, the educational level of people in these positions would be at least an MBA, right?

 

My dh has worked on Wall Street for 20+ years. He gets a quarterly bonus based on the production of his unit. Most firms do bonuses on an annual instead of quarterly basis now, though. That bonus, as you can imagine, fluctuates significantly. In a good year, base pay is usually less than 50% of total compensation. As an example, a new employee in my dh's unit might make $25,000 in base pay, but may also earn an equal or greater amount in bonus(es). My dh's most highly compensated employee (earns between $200,000 - $400,000 yearly) doesn't have a degree of any type.

 

As for educational level, it depends on the position. Wall Street is less interested in credentials than many other industries. When my dh began working for Chase Manhattan back in the early '90's about half the "sales" staff had some type of degree - usually a B.S. or B.A., many did not. Now, management positions are another animal. My dh, who has a B.S. in linguistics, opted to get an MBA from Columbia in the late '90's to further his career. It's important to mention that connections are really important on Wall Street. The son, daughter, relative, or friend of a successful sales/executive is much more likely to find a lucrative position than someone entering the field cold. That's just the way it is.

 

One way firms sort employees is through licensing requirements. The financial industry has several levels of "series" licenses that teach/test industry regualtions/laws. Passing one or more of these exams provides a credential that can be much more valuable than a degree.

 

Some info one of the basic exams: http://www.sec.gov/answers/series7.htm

[Jane in NC]

My dh has worked on Wall Street for 20+ years. He gets a quarterly bonus based on the production of his unit. Most firms do bonuses on an annual instead of quarterly basis now, though. That bonus, as you can imagine, fluctuates significantly. In a good year, base pay is usually less than 50% of total compensation. As an example, a new employee in my dh's unit might make $25,000 in base pay, but may also earn an equal or greater amount in bonus(es). My dh's most highly compensated employee (earns between $200,000 - $400,000 yearly) doesn't have a degree of any type.

 

As for educational level, it depends on the position. Wall Street is less interested in credentials than many other industries. When my dh began working for Chase Manhattan back in the early '90's about half the "sales" staff had some type of degree - usually a B.S. or B.A., many did not. Now, management positions are another animal. My dh, who has a B.S. in linguistics, opted to get an MBA from Columbia in the late '90's to further his career. It's important to mention that connections are really important on Wall Street. The son, daughter, relative, or friend of a successful sales/executive is much more likely to find a lucrative position than someone entering the field cold. That's just the way it is.

 

One way firms sort employees is through licensing requirements. The financial industry has several levels of "series" licenses that teach/test industry regualtions/laws. Passing one or more of these exams provides a credential that can be much more valuable than a degree.

 

Some info one of the basic exams: http://www.sec.gov/answers/series7.htm

 

Thanks for the detailed response.

[redsquirrel]

Food prices have more to do with the drought. That is going to be much worse in the coming years.

[LisaKinVA]

Something has to give. I know businesses are still closing multi-million dollar (even billion-dollar) deals. I also look around at the requirements for college, the lack of blue-collar work, the public sector, the tax system, regulations that do more to protect corporations than the public, government over-reach, immigration laws...problems seem to multiply, but there doesn't seem to be any real stomach to take on difficult issues, just keep an appearance of doing something, when nothing really changes.

 

Going through 30 years of my books (poli-sci/gov't), it's amazing that we've been talking about these problems/solutions for most of my teen years (and all of my adult life), and nothing (or next to nothing) has been implemented.

 

Going through some history courses, I've learned that some of the problems we're talking about go back further than that (over 100 years), proving that in many ways, the more things change, the more things stay the same.

[Mrs Mungo]

Did you know that Monopoly has its roots in a game developed by Elizabeth Magie called "The Landlord's Game"? The point of playing was to demonstrate how paying rent enriched landlords and impoverished tenants. Magie espoused the theory of an economist named Henry George who believed that land and natural resources belong to the community and should not be held privately.

 

Have you seen The Garden? I think the idea of a city reclaiming properties from negligent landlords and cleaning up neighborhood blight with community help is a good idea.

 

We aren't having a drought.

 

WHO isn't having a drought?

 

If I go to a farmer's market in Manhattan I pay less for produce trucked in from Pennsylvania Amish country than I would at the farmers stands here in the countryside. Prices are set for tourists, or more precisely, hedge fund managers, dinks, etc. who are on their way to second homes or racing venues for the weekends. People who want fresh here go to a market in a bigger city that buys from regional farmers, or they grow their own.

 

We'll be joining the neighbors and putting in a freezer of venison this fall. We can't do $4/lb for ground beef.

 

Errr, most of the wheat, corn, soy, hay, etc that is grown in the US is grown in the middle states. Guess who is in severe drought?

 

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu

 

I'm from Oklahoma, dh is from Texas. We both know quite a few cattle farmers. The drought is a HUGE issue this year. There isn't enough fodder in the fields, they must supplement with hay, etc. Hay has skyrocketed in price this year over least year. Maybe some of your small-time farms in Pennsylvania are taking advantage of the situation, but that doesn't make it not real.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Mrs Mungo

[momto2Cs]

It's way, way too complex to be fixed with the election either way. Although, I offer a different view... what if we were living in a false prosperity created by inflated numbers and worth along with over-inflated home prices and massive amounts of unsecured/unworthy credit flooding the market? I think we are living in reality now and the past economy of the 90s was an illusion of sorts. That's just my humble opinion, though. :)

 

:iagree:

[redsquirrel]

We aren't having a drought. If I go to a farmer's market in Manhattan I pay less for produce trucked in from Pennsylvania Amish country than I would at the farmers stands here in the countryside adjacent to the farms. Prices are set for tourists, or more precisely, hedge fund managers, dinks, etc. who are on their way to second homes or racing venues for the weekends. Non 5% people who want fresh here go to a market in a bigger city that buys from regional farmers, or they grow their own.

 

We'll be joining the neighbors and putting in a freezer of venison this fall. We can't do $4/lb for ground beef.

 

Electing certain people for governor seems to help. Ours is curbing the local gov't worker union raise packages. Until they don't have both sides of the bargaining table, the taxpayers won't be getting relief.

 

I live in upstate NY. My county is having a drought. Corn is a few inches high. I don't know what all those cows who make milk for NYC are going to be eating. Those NY state apple/pumpkin/wheat farmers aren't doing well either. Prices are high at my local farmers/regional market because the farmers are struggling and hoping to make some back.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

I think it will be a long time until the economy recovers. Stopped in the local grocery store today. Prices were sky high. I picked up the two things I needed and left. Very few shoppers. This is typical of 'main street' stores...the owners want to make a few sales with a high profit margin so prices never lower to encourage demand to pick up. We are finding it easy to name our price on higher ticket items, as some of the owners have been very upfront about how much they need to make per day and are willing to bargain. Those renting the store space charge very high rates and aren't about to lower them, so vacancies exist for a long time. The town here is looking for chain stores to come in, as people that don't have state/local gov't jobs or pensions don't shop main street - they go out of town to stores they can afford or go online. I think the economy will recover when the pricing goes back to what most people can afford -- which is not the two gov't worker families, dinks, attornies, wall street finance, and physicians level of income.

 

Your obsession with government workers borders on being scary.

Your explanation of pricing behavior of "main street" stores is simply bizarre.

[OH_Homeschooler]

 

WHO isn't having a drought?

 

 

 

 

Thanks for asking, I was wondering the exact same thing.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

 

I'm from Oklahoma, dh is from Texas. We both know quite a few cattle farmers. The drought is a HUGE issue this year. There isn't enough fodder in the fields, they must supplement with hay, etc. Hay has skyrocketed in price this year over least year. Maybe some of your small-time farms in Pennsylvania are taking advantage of the situation, but that doesn't make it not real.

 

The small farmers (related to a couple) in the east will definitely benefit, but you are correct that as a whole most farmers are really hurting.

There will be a couple of ripple effects.

1.) Higher prices for corn/wheat related products.

2.) Initially lower meat prices as more cattle will be sent to market due to the cost of feed.

3.) Higher meat prices will then follow.

4.) Corn farmers will then have a lovely time when they can raise crops again - prices will be down because of lowered demand due to market reactions to the higher prices.

 

As usual, farmers get hammered coming and going...but agribusiness will roll on.

[....]

. 

 

[ChocolateReignRemix]

lol. Don't let my realitly impinge on yours. I'm happy prices are now negotiable..thank you Jeff Bezos et al .

 

I don't think what you experience is "reality".

[Woodhaven]

Just my opinion. But, no. I expect it will get much worse.

 

At this point, our nation is in deep debt. No one is willing to stop spending. If our government ever gets serious about our debt we will have to live with much less and our nation will experience hard times. If our government doesn't get serious and we keep spending what we don't have, then we are in even deeper trouble.

 

Truly, I worry for my children.

[delaney]

Just my opinion. But, no. I expect it will get much worse.

 

At this point, our nation is in deep debt. No one is willing to stop spending. If our government ever gets serious about our debt we will have to live with much less and our nation will experience hard times. If our government doesn't get serious and we keep spending what we don't have, then we are in even deeper trouble.

 

Truly, I worry for my children.

 

And this is why when I see people who continue to carry on with life...college loans with the expectation of going off into the work world and getting wealthy...I cringe. It is not that way anymore. Expensive 4 year schools make no sense to me. Shipping them out the door to try and wade through the muck and mire makes no sense. I sincerely feel like we owe it to our kids to keep them close and work as a family to get through this time. It makes more sense to have them here contributing to the family and house then going out to try and juggle a car loan and rent. Why is it that the idea of extended family seems so much more appealing in these times?

[Wheres Toto]

New Jersey is not having a drought. It means my garden is doing well but I fully understand that grocery prices are affected by a lot more than how my garden grows. ;)

 

Things don't seem as bad here as a lot of places. I agree that we're going to have to find a new normal since things were artificially high before.

[butterflymommy]

So far the only food price increase I've noticed is the cost of flour. Generic brand now costs what name brand used to, name brand has gone way up. But since I tend to buy exclusively on sale and at the bottom-of-the-barrel stores, prices are still reasonable for me. Name brands at chain stores might be up but I wouldn't know.

 

I did notice a huge food price jump about 18 months- 2 yrs ago and things never went back down.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

And this is why when I see people who continue to carry on with life...college loans with the expectation of going off into the work world and getting wealthy...I cringe. It is not that way anymore. Expensive 4 year schools make no sense to me. Shipping them out the door to try and wade through the muck and mire makes no sense. I sincerely feel like we owe it to our kids to keep them close and work as a family to get through this time. It makes more sense to have them here contributing to the family and house then going out to try and juggle a car loan and rent. Why is it that the idea of extended family seems so much more appealing in these times?

 

Because you are massively overreacting?

Expensive 4 year schools make sense in the right set of circumstances.

Same for cheaper 4 year or schools...or community college...or trade schools...or....

 

Some students will take on too many loans; some won't. A portion of the student loan issue is greatly overstated by the media, but it can be a burden if the loans are taken for the wrong reasons.

 

Will the economy improve? Certainly. Nothing stays the same for ever. When? That is a much tougher question, and is more affected by region and personal circumstances. I can say that increasing one's human capital via appropriate education or training is never a bad thing in any economy.

 

For those that say the economy won't improve because of issue "X" or we all are a facing a new normal because of issues "A/B/C", I caution you to step back and understand that when dealing with a GDP in the trillions, very few blanket statements will ever be applicable in the long run.

[FairyMom]

And this is why when I see people who continue to carry on with life...college loans with the expectation of going off into the work world and getting wealthy...I cringe. It is not that way anymore. Expensive 4 year schools make no sense to me. Shipping them out the door to try and wade through the muck and mire makes no sense. I sincerely feel like we owe it to our kids to keep them close and work as a family to get through this time. It makes more sense to have them here contributing to the family and house then going out to try and juggle a car loan and rent. Why is it that the idea of extended family seems so much more appealing in these times?

 

I completely understand this. Dh and I have talked and talked about higher education and how to pay for it without draining our accounts. Completing their undergraduate degree at a local college while living at home seems like the only choice unless they get scholarships. Of course, I'm also of the mindset that my children are welcome to stay with us well after their 18th birthday. ;)

[delaney]

Because you are massively overreacting?

Expensive 4 year schools make sense in the right set of circumstances.

Same for cheaper 4 year or schools...or community college...or trade schools...or....

 

Some students will take on too many loans; some won't. A portion of the student loan issue is greatly overstated by the media, but it can be a burden if the loans are taken for the wrong reasons.

 

Will the economy improve? Certainly. Nothing stays the same for ever. When? That is a much tougher question, and is more affected by region and personal circumstances. I can say that increasing one's human capital via appropriate education or training is never a bad thing in any economy.

 

For those that say the economy won't improve because of issue "X" or we all are a facing a new normal because of issues "A/B/C", I caution you to step back and understand that when dealing with a GDP in the trillions, very few blanket statements will ever be applicable in the long run.

 

I don't think overreacting is what I would call it as much as seeing a new reality and being cautious.

[delaney]

I completely understand this. Dh and I have talked and talked about higher education and how to pay for it without draining our accounts. Completing their undergraduate degree at a local college while living at home seems like the only choice unless they get scholarships. Of course, I'm also of the mindset that my children are welcome to stay with us well after their 18th birthday. ;)

 

Exactly. Why run out the door into the world of debt. Rent here for a 1 bedroom can be in excess of $800 per month! Who can afford that? I tell mine that there is no stop watch on their welcome here. As long as they have a goal and are working toward it they can stay. Loafing is not allowed :tongue_smilie:

[Crimson Wife]

I understand the bonus system. I also understand that many in the financial system who got TARP money as a bonus were those who were engaged in risky trading to begin with. That should not have happened.

 

Nope, those folks were long gone (fired) by the time anyone remaining at the firms received bonuses. It isn't fair to punish those who had absolutely NOTHING to do with the mortgage mess simply because they happen to work for the same huge firm. These Wall Street firms had something like 50,000 employees each, the overwhelming majority of whom were in uninvolved divisions.

[justamouse]

My DH's employer, the sole owner of a large (400+ employees) and very profitable "small" business, would vehemently disagree with you.

 

 

The definition of a small business is 50 employees and under. Those are the people we talk to. No one we know is profiting right now. No one. We're all holding onto what we can and trying not to fire people.

 

Banks here are now requiring owners to secure credit lines. The fact is that many CAN'T secure their lines, if they're allowed to renew at all.

[Trish]

With upcoming election I just keep wondering if the outcome will really effect the economy all that much, or is this just a storm we have to weather? Can we fix this mess?:confused:

 

It's a worldwide problem, and no, I don't think it's fixable, either on a global or U.S. level. We are heading toward a crash of historic proportions, and there's very little anyone can do to "prepare" for that. So I live life on the micro level, enjoying each day as it comes, knowing that this way of life may not last much longer.

 

I know that sounds a little dour, but it actually is liberating, to appreciate each day for its own joys and not worry too much about what next year holds. People call my view "pessimistic" but I'm not depressed about it, just sort of aware of the fact that we are living in unusually historic times.

[Caroline]

The definition of a small business is 50 employees and under. Those are the people we talk to. No one we know is profiting right now. No one. We're all holding onto what we can and trying not to fire people.

 

Banks here are now requiring owners to secure credit lines. The fact is that many CAN'T secure their lines, if they're allowed to renew at all.

 

Here are the SBA's definitions:

 

Manufacturing: Maximum number of employees may range from 500 to 1500, depending on the type of product manufactured;

• Wholesaling: Maximum number of employees may range from 100 to 500 depending on the particular product being provided;

• Services: Annual receipts may not exceed $2.5 to $21.5 million, depending on the particular service being provided;

• Retailing: Annual receipts may not exceed $5.0 to $21.0 million, depending on the particular product being provided;

• General and Heavy Construction: General construction annual receipts may not exceed $13.5 to $17 million, depending on the type of construction;

• Special Trade Construction: Annual receipts may not exceed $7 million; and

• Agriculture: Annual receipts may not exceed $0.5 to $9.0 million, depending on the agricultural product.

[justamouse]

Here are the SBA's definitions:

 

Manufacturing: Maximum number of employees may range from 500 to 1500, depending on the type of product manufactured;

• Wholesaling: Maximum number of employees may range from 100 to 500 depending on the particular product being provided;

• Services: Annual receipts may not exceed $2.5 to $21.5 million, depending on the particular service being provided;

• Retailing: Annual receipts may not exceed $5.0 to $21.0 million, depending on the particular product being provided;

• General and Heavy Construction: General construction annual receipts may not exceed $13.5 to $17 million, depending on the type of construction;

• Special Trade Construction: Annual receipts may not exceed $7 million; and

• Agriculture: Annual receipts may not exceed $0.5 to $9.0 million, depending on the agricultural product.

 

 

Funny that the new healthcare calls it 50 and up.

[Pawz4me]

The definition of a small business is 50 employees and under.

 

No, it isn't.

 

Small Business Administration's chart of what qualifies as a "small" business

[Slartibartfast]

Nope, those folks were long gone (fired) by the time anyone remaining at the firms received bonuses. It isn't fair to punish those who had absolutely NOTHING to do with the mortgage mess simply because they happen to work for the same huge firm. These Wall Street firms had something like 50,000 employees each, the overwhelming majority of whom were in uninvolved divisions.

 

I disagree, the entire firm should have been aware of the risky ventures and should face the consequences.

[Crimson Wife]

Could you define a "relatively low base pay"? Also, for the sake of comparison, the educational level of people in these positions would be at least an MBA, right?

 

Relatively low compared to the market rate for those individuals if they were working in another industry. The base salary for an associate starting in summer 2006 when my DH did after finishing his MBA (so just prior to the start of the crash) was about 60% of what the salaries were for jobs in other industries. The year-end bonus was what made up the difference.

 

Now that bonuses are under government interference, the base salaries have had to come up to keep the total compensation competitive.

[regentrude]

And this is why when I see people who continue to carry on with life...college loans with the expectation of going off into the work world and getting wealthy...I cringe. It is not that way anymore. Expensive 4 year schools make no sense to me.

 

That depends entirely on the degree these students are getting.

I teach at a STEM university; some of our juniors already have firm job offers for when they graduate. In some fields, every graduate who has a halfway decent GPA gets hired, and many of these jobs allow a quick repaying of student loans: average starting salary of our graduates is 59k.

 

Now of course, some people spend a lot of money on a degree with poor chances of hiring and low starting salaries. That would be an unwise choice - but for many, the investment in a four year degree brings a high return, much better than any other form of investment currently.

[Crimson Wife]

I disagree, the entire firm should have been aware of the risky ventures and should face the consequences.

 

Every single one of the 50,000 employees should know what every other one is doing? Are you serious?????????

 

My last employer was a fraction of that size (I think around 400 or so) and I didn't know much about what the folks outside of my division were doing.

[justamouse]

That depends entirely on the degree these students are getting.

I teach at a STEM university; some of our juniors already have firm job offers for when they graduate. In some fields, every graduate who has a halfway decent GPA gets hired, and many of these jobs allow a quick repaying of student loans: average starting salary of our graduates is 59k.

 

Now of course, some people spend a lot of money on a degree with poor chances of hiring and low starting salaries. That would be an unwise choice - but for many, the investment in a four year degree brings a high return, much better than any other form of investment currently.

 

the hard part about that is some people just aren't going to be STEM majors. And we really don't want a country filled with nothing but STEM majors, either, do we?

 

I am happy that they're going to get good paying jobs and their debt is worth it. But what about the amazing dancer? Or artist? Or the ancient languages major?

[Slartibartfast]

Every single one of the 50,000 employees should know what every other one is doing? Are you serious?????????

 

My last employer was a fraction of that size (I think around 400 or so) and I didn't know much about what the folks outside of my division were doing.

 

The *firm* should have been aware. I never said all of them should. No, I don't think a single person in those firms should have received bonuses.

[LisaKinVA]

The *firm* should have been aware. I never said all of them should. No, I don't think a single person in those firms should have received bonuses.

 

Are you missing the part where these aren't "bonuses" in the sense that they are extra, separate, apart from their compensation plan?

 

You realize you're saying that the person making $24,000 a year plus commission (the bonus to which you are referring), should lose all of their commissions for the year and only have the $24,000 base?

 

While I agree that true "company bonuses" (as in, Christmas bonus, birthday bonus, you've been working here 10 year's bonus)...things that aren't tied to their actual compensation plan) shouldn't be paid, I in *no way* think those on a compensation plan of base plus commission should be denied their earned compensation.

 

That's like saying a waitress who is paid $2.50 an hour, because the owner can assume tips earned should be forced to live on the $2.50 an hour and turn her tips back into the company, if the company eliminated their annual Christmas Bonus.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

That depends entirely on the degree these students are getting.

I teach at a STEM university; some of our juniors already have firm job offers for when they graduate. In some fields, every graduate who has a halfway decent GPA gets hired, and many of these jobs allow a quick repaying of student loans: average starting salary of our graduates is 59k.

 

Now of course, some people spend a lot of money on a degree with poor chances of hiring and low starting salaries. That would be an unwise choice - but for many, the investment in a four year degree brings a high return, much better than any other form of investment currently.

 

Exactly.

 

For some students, taking out loans is the correct financial decision. For others, it is NOT the correct decision.

 

This "new reality" mantra I keep reading where every kid needs to go to CC and live at home until 30 is not the case for everyone.

[Impish]

*haven't read all responses*

 

From an outsider's perspective, I can remember saying that whoever the poor guy was that won the last election, he'd be hooped b/c of the economy...there was no way anyone elected could magically fix what was wrong. I don't believe that it would have mattered, really, to the economy who was elected, it would have happened as it did, period.

 

As others have pointed out, it was built w/imaginary money...and the dreamer's gotta wake up sometime.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Are you missing the part where these aren't "bonuses" in the sense that they are extra, separate, apart from their compensation plan?

 

You realize you're saying that the person making $24,000 a year plus commission (the bonus to which you are referring), should lose all of their commissions for the year and only have the $24,000 base?

 

While I agree that true "company bonuses" (as in, Christmas bonus, birthday bonus, you've been working here 10 year's bonus)...things that aren't tied to their actual compensation plan) shouldn't be paid, I in *no way* think those on a compensation plan of base plus commission should be denied their earned compensation.

 

That's like saying a waitress who is paid $2.50 an hour, because the owner can assume tips earned should be forced to live on the $2.50 an hour and turn her tips back into the company, if the company eliminated their annual Christmas Bonus.

 

 

If company performance was so poor that a bailout was needed, then was the compensation truly earned? Commissions and bonuses are not the same. An employee who is supposed to receive X% from a sale should still receive that money. An employee who receives a year end bonus based on company performance is a different situation entirely.

And no, your analogy is terrible.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

*haven't read all responses*

 

From an outsider's perspective, I can remember saying that whoever the poor guy was that won the last election, he'd be hooped b/c of the economy...there was no way anyone elected could magically fix what was wrong. I don't believe that it would have mattered, really, to the economy who was elected, it would have happened as it did, period.

 

As others have pointed out, it was built w/imaginary money...and the dreamer's gotta wake up sometime.

 

Correct. My statement at the time was two men were struggling to see who would be called one of the worst presidents in history by the other side for the next 4 years.

[Crimson Wife]

The *firm* should have been aware. I never said all of them should. No, I don't think a single person in those firms should have received bonuses.

 

That's just petty, vindictive scapegoating.

 

I understand people are angry and upset, but the 99% of those working for those firms at the time who were NOT involved in the mortgage mess are angry and upset too.

 

A significant portion of the innocent employees subsequently got caught up in one (or more) of the many rounds of layoffs that these firms have gone through over the past 5 years. I think my DH's employer had 7 or 8 rounds between fall 2007 and summer 2009 and then another 2 or 3 since this spring. Making a lot of (honest) money for the firm's bottom line didn't save my DH from twice having his position eliminated during all the turmoil.

 

Those involved in the mortgage mess were fired at the very beginning and did not receive any bonus money (and rightly so).

[Crimson Wife]

If company performance was so poor that a bailout was needed, then was the compensation truly earned? Commissions and bonuses are not the same. An employee who is supposed to receive X% from a sale should still receive that money. An employee who receives a year end bonus based on company performance is a different situation entirely.

And no, your analogy is terrible.

 

Except that the government pressured ALL of the Wall Street firms to participate in TARP, even the ones who did not actually need the money. The idea was that if only certain firms who did need the money (like Bank of America) participated and others didn't, it would cause a loss of confidence and make the crisis worse. So the firms that didn't need a bailout participated in TARP as well as a way to keep the troubled firms from getting stigmatized & collapsing. The firms that didn't need the TARP money repaid it as soon as the government allowed them to.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Except that the government pressured ALL of the Wall Street firms to participate in TARP, even the ones who did not actually need the money. The idea was that if only certain firms who did need the money (like Bank of America) participated and others didn't, it would cause a loss of confidence and make the crisis worse. So the firms that didn't need a bailout participated in TARP as well as a way to keep the troubled firms from getting stigmatized & collapsing. The firms that didn't need the TARP money repaid it as soon as the government allowed them to.

 

That is a fair point.

 

However, a lot of the controversy could have been avoided if the top level executives at all of the firms had agreed to take reduced bonuses at the end of 2008 and 2009. Even for those firms who didn't need TARP, those execs benefited heavily from the games played in our financial system and taking a financial loss as part of a PR move would have been prudent.

 

It is also fair to point out, that had the TARP money not been spread out to all, the collapse would have extended and hit all firms by the end.

[regentrude]

. But what about the amazing dancer? Or artist? Or the ancient languages major?

 

Those need to be aware that taking out large debt to finance their education might not be wise under the current economic circumstances. They will either have to limit their borrowing, or have a realistic expectation about the standard of living they will most likely have with their degrees.

(Having children who flirt with the idea of being authors, we had some very frank discussions about this.)

 

I am not saying that nobody should go into these fields. I was merely responding to the poster who said that she "did not see the point" of a four year college education. For many students, this is a sensible choice. (And for others, it is not, from a mere economical point of view. They still might reap great benefits from it.)

Edited August 28, 2012 by regentrude

[CAMom]

The definition of a small business is 50 employees and under. Those are the people we talk to. No one we know is profiting right now. No one. We're all holding onto what we can and trying not to fire people.

 

 

 

Exactly! Our employees have not received raises but we have not cut their pay either. However, our own income has been cut to less than half of what we were making three years ago. We are now in our third year of making far less than what we need to survive and our savings is dwindling rapidly.

 

With one kid in college and another almost there, it's scary!

[Audrey]

Have you seen The Garden? I think the idea of a city reclaiming properties from negligent landlords and cleaning up neighborhood blight with community help is a good idea.

 

 

 

WHO isn't having a drought?

 

 

 

Errr, most of the wheat, corn, soy, hay, etc that is grown in the US is grown in the middle states. Guess who is in severe drought?

 

http://droughtmonitor.unl.edu

 

I'm from Oklahoma, dh is from Texas. We both know quite a few cattle farmers. The drought is a HUGE issue this year. There isn't enough fodder in the fields, they must supplement with hay, etc. Hay has skyrocketed in price this year over least year. Maybe some of your small-time farms in Pennsylvania are taking advantage of the situation, but that doesn't make it not real.

 

 

The drought is very bad this year. Historically record breakingly bad. Don't even ask me how I know this. :sad:

[Audrey]

I'm in NY. No drought here, yet prices for local produce have skyrocketed. Yes indeedy, 'taking advantage of the situation' is just what we have. It's just as good as doubling the price on generators when hurricanes come through.

 

I do expect to pay more from produce for areas where there is a drought. But tourist prices for locals..nope.

 

 

You seem to be woefully undereducated on the realities of food distribution both the US and N. America.

 

Crop loss affects the entire distribution chain, not just your special little corner of it.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Audrey

[FairyMom]

The drought is very bad this year. Historically record breakingly bad. Don't even ask me how I know this. :sad:

 

I'm so sorry. :grouphug: I understand. We sold all of our livestock last summer since we couldn't even buy round bales, not to mention the cost if we could find some. We haven't had enough rain to grow anything to feed this year either, so we can't buy livestock. :sad:

[FairyMom]

You seem to be woefully undereducated on the realities of food distribution both in the US and N. America.

 

Crop loss affects the entire distribution chain, not just your special little corner of it.

 

:iagree:

[Audrey]

Correct. My statement at the time was two men were struggling to see who would be called one of the worst presidents in history by the other side for the next 4 years.

 

I think this is also the purpose of the current election as well. Too bad, really. Blame games solve nothing.

Edited August 28, 2012 by Audrey

[regentrude]

You seem to be woefully undereducated on the realities of food distribution both the US and N. America.

 

Crop loss affects the entire distribution chain, not just your special little corner of it.

 

We had hardly any rain since May.

People in Missouri buy hay that is brought in from Michigan. We have trouble finding hay bales for the horses for sale. (Our regular hay farmer went back on a done deal and sold our hay to a higher bidder). The dairy farmers are selling their cattle because they can't feed them.

This all does have ripples throughout the nation.

[delaney]

Those need to be aware that taking out large debt to finance their education might not be wise under the current economic circumstances. They will either have to limit their borrowing, or have a realistic expectation about the standard of living they will most likely have with their degrees.

(Having children who flirt with the idea of being authors, we had some very frank discussions about this.)

 

I am not saying that nobody should go into these fields. I was merely responding to the poster who said that she "did not see the point" of a four year college education. For many students, this is a sensible choice. (And for others, it is not, from a mere economical point of view. They still might reap great benefits from it.)

 

I did not say I did not see the point in a 4 year degree. I said that paying for the 4 years at the college makes no sense when if you transfer in you get the same piece of paper even though you did 2 years at community college. I think colleges are crazy to charge 40K per year for basic 100 level courses and I won't buy into it. So many of today's graduates have that ever popular "business" degree which is not much when you have spent $150K to get it. More specialized degrees are very much worth the money if that is your thing. I was speaking more in terms of the political science major at the private university who could have done it much more cheaply by starting local first.