MIL Admits

[Impish]

Wolf talked to his mother last night.

 

She's now admitting that she's losing her memory. She told him that she brought a book to camp mtg w/her, b/c she knew she wouldn't remember who she saw and what she did there. :(

 

We've suspected for some time that she was developing dementia. We tried to get others to keep an eye on her, but ppl lost their ever lovin' minds, insisting, rabidly, that she was 'FINE! JUST FINE!' and how dare we say such a thing, etc.

 

She has 3 sibs w/Alzheimers.

 

The problem is, what do we do now? We want her to move to our province, so we can keep an eye on her, since everyone else is so in denial she could/would end up hurting herself or someone else before they'd even begin to consider to consider there's a problem.

 

B/c she's in another province, if Wolf and his cousin use their POA to get her ruled incompetant, she's stuck in that province's health care system, and we can't afford to visit her on a regular basis. We'd be lucky to see her 1x a yr...and having worked in LTC, I know that when there's family around, residents do get treated better. I don't want her stuck somewhere to rot.

 

We still cannot move her in w/us. Physically, I cannot handle assisting her. She's unsteady on her feet, uses a walker, and if she fell, I couldn't help her up.

 

The kids exhaust her after a cpl of hrs of being around them. I've seen flashes of anger and frustration from her when ppl don't do as she demands, and I can't help but worry that will only get worse. Not a safe thing for my kids to be around.

 

Plus, around here, if you move someone in w/you, the gov does nothing to find them an assisted care situation. B/c they're w/someone, they're safe, so others are always bumped ahead of them on the list. They wait until either the caregiver completely breaks, or the person ends up in the ER for uncontrolled behaviour and the family refuses to bring them home.

 

If she's in an apt of her own, home care can be arranged pdq, and that ball starts rolling. They keep notes, legal documentation, and can have her moving up the list as her needs increase.

 

Problem is, neither Wolf nor I can see a way to convince her to move. We've tried, time and again, and she toys w/it. Yes she's coming, no she's not, yes she is, no she isn't, yes she is, no she isn't...

 

If folks wouldn't mind praying for us, and for her, I'd really appreciate it. Help us to know what the right thing to do is, and help it to be done.

 

Yes, her behaviour and narcisissm makes us crazy. No, that's not a result of potential dementia issues, she's been like that her entire life. Yes, dementia *will* make it worse. But we don't hate her. We want her safe, and to ensure she's cared for as best we possibly can.

 

Thanks.

[kb44]

:grouphug: to you! That's a lot to deal with.

[justLisa]

That's rough :grouphug:

[jenL]

Imp, the GRACE in your post is truly inspiring after all this lady has put you both through!

 

Dh is in a similar situation with his dad who is having severe heart problems. We are 1K miles away and it's tough to be so far knowing what is happening to him. So, we understand.

 

And, we will pray for you all. :grouphug:

[Reflections]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Maybe by admitting to Wolf that she is forgetting, she is really saying, I am now willing to talk about needing more help than I have right now??

[Impish]

:grouphug::grouphug:

 

Maybe by admitting to Wolf that she is forgetting, she is really saying, I am now willing to talk about needing more help than I have right now??

I really wish that were the case.

 

Problem is, MIL has made it clear in the past that the only way she'll move is if it's IN w/us...and honestly, we just can't do that.

 

W/my disability, I cannot handle ensuring her safety. W/young children in the house, we don't feel we can risk her potentially becoming physically aggressive...she's already shown she can be verbally aggressive...so far, it's only been directed at Wolf and I, but w/dementia, that's not something we can count on, that she won't be nasty to the kids...and neither of us feel we have the right to risk our children in that manner.

 

Add to that, where we're moving, it's in a prov park. No neighbours except for conservation officers...lots of places to wander and vanish, a river that runs at a high rate...quite possibly the worst place for someone who could potentially wander off to be.

 

If we could ensure everyone's safety...but we simply cannot.

 

And it sucks.

[sparrow]

:grouphug: I have special hugs for others dealing with dementia in their family. It is SO hard.

[Lara in Colo]

Could you try to sit her down and have a come to Jesus meeting??

 

State the facts as they are and the consequences of each action/inaction--- just like you did us.

 

She is losing her memory, not her intelligence or desires. (I cannot keep her straight from your mother-- sorry-- so I cannot really remember her personality and if she is rational or not. :001_smile:

[celticmom]

:grouphug:

[Impish]

Could you try to sit her down and have a come to Jesus meeting??

 

State the facts as they are and the consequences of each action/inaction--- just like you did us.

 

She is losing her memory, not her intelligence or desires. (I cannot keep her straight from your mother-- sorry-- so I cannot really remember her personality and if she is rational or not. :001_smile:

MIL is a total narcissist. My mother is both NPD and a sociopath.

 

We can't sit her down, b/c we're in 2 diff provinces, she's 14hr drive, one way from us.

 

Her desire, which she's stated, time and again (first time was mere moments after Wolf and I exchanged vows: "I'm SO glad he married you! Now I won't EVER have to be in a nursing home) and raised Wolf w/ (I adopted you, you owe me, I'll live w/you when I'm elderly) is to move in w/us. We simply cannot comply, for the reasons I've already explained.

 

Wolf and I have attempted to explain this to her. That my disability means I can't take care of anyone, that managing the kids has my plate full to over flowing...her response has been to 'test' my arm every time she's around, and to state that Diva could do it (take care of her). :001_huh:

 

Yeah. Not happening.

[Harriet Vane]

:grouphug:

[Night Elf]

So these other family members don't think there is a problem and therefore they don't do anything for her? Visit her? If she were put into the system in her province, would they change their tune? You just may have to work with what you've got. I would be surprised if she finally agreed to move with the understanding that it won't be into your home. If Wolf did get POA, would he be able to legally determine where she must live?

[justamouse]

:grouphug:

[Audrey]

It seems pretty simple to me. Surely there is a senior's home, assisted living or personal care home near you, probably more than one within 50 miles or so. Apply on her behalf for a space there. Get her on waiting lists if necessary, or it is possible that a space may already be available. Reciprocal agreements are in place between provinces to transfer health care. That shouldn't be an issue, just paperwork.

 

Once a space becomes available, just go get her and move her in. If you have to collect a posse to do it, just do it. All this foot-dragging is just extending a bunch of drama that is completely unnecessary and inherently deterimental to her, you and all of her loved ones.

 

There comes a point where the foot must come down. Firmly.

[Dobela]

You just do what you can do and leave the rest to God. What is ideal isn't always possible. My 88 yr old grandmother recently went into an assisted living facility. She lives 270 miles from my mom and nearly that far from her only other child. For many years my parents have tried to get her to move closer. Several years ago my parents bought an apartment for her to live in, then she backed out. After Christmas this year my dad even converted part of a garage on their property into an appartment for her because she said she wanted to move. Then she refused to come. After a scary health incident, a doctor put her into rehab and then into the assisted living facility. My mom talks to the care givers daily. She calls my grandmother daily. And if she can't, my uncle does. Fortunately my grandmother is from a small community that she has lived in since childhood and many people will check on her, check her house, and keep us informed. My mom is traveling at least once a month to visit her.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:

[Impish]

So these other family members don't think there is a problem and therefore they don't do anything for her? Visit her? If she were put into the system in her province, would they change their tune? You just may have to work with what you've got. I would be surprised if she finally agreed to move with the understanding that it won't be into your home. If Wolf did get POA, would he be able to legally determine where she must live?

Wolf shares POA w/a cousin. Cousin is trying to talk MIL into moving to our province.

 

Her other fam members in her province are her brother, the creepazoid that has recently been dx'd w/Alzheimer's, his wife, and her sister that is in a locked ward w/Alzheimer's. And Wolf's cousin that I mentioned.

 

If they excercise POA, she'll be stuck in her province. Once she's in an assisted care facility, she's deemed 'safe' and another province isn't going to take her. We can't excercise POA, move her here, and put her in her own place, b/c that would be knowingly putting her at risk...and we can't get her on a list for assisted living unless she's a resident of this province. Catch 22. And, honestly, we don't know that she's cognitively impaired enough at this point for POA to take over.

 

Moving to our province will require her choosing to do so. And, frankly, I don't see how even Wolf and his cousin working together on this is going to convince her.

 

She wants to move into our home. Period. I don't see how that's a safe option. So wth do we do? Bait and switch? "Yeah, come move in w/us..." then attempt to force her out into her own apt? How the heck would we be able to make her move at that point? And wouldn't it be the height of cruelty to do that to her?

 

I just don't know. I want her safe and taken care of, both of us do, but feel completely helpless at this point.

[Impish]

It seems pretty simple to me. Surely there is a senior's home, assisted living or personal care home near you, probably more than one within 50 miles or so. Apply on her behalf for a space there. Get her on waiting lists if necessary, or it is possible that a space may already be available. Reciprocal agreements are in place between provinces to transfer health care. That shouldn't be an issue, just paperwork.

 

Once a space becomes available, just go get her and move her in. If you have to collect a posse to do it, just do it. All this foot-dragging is just extending a bunch of drama that is completely unnecessary and inherently deterimental to her, you and all of her loved ones.

 

There comes a point where the foot must come down. Firmly.

I'll check into it again, Aud, but when I talked to the Alzheimer's Assoc a cpl of yrs ago, they told me that AB wouldn't accept a non resident, as they have waiting lists yrs long, and wouldn't accept someone from another province, they'd have to be a resident of AB first.

 

I will call again, and see if anything has changed. I know that prov have reciprocal agreements for if a resident here needs health care when visiting, etc, but that doesn't seem to be the case when it comes to care facilities.

[Night Elf]

She wants to move into our home. Period. I don't see how that's a safe option. So wth do we do? Bait and switch? "Yeah, come move in w/us..." then attempt to force her out into her own apt? How the heck would we be able to make her move at that point? And wouldn't it be the height of cruelty to do that to her?

 

Ugh, I don't see that as being a good solution. She'd have to be really far gone for that to work. If you let her move into your home temporarily, she'll get a foothold in there and probably refuse to move. You guys would have to literally pack her stuff up and push her out. But what would she do in her own apartment at that point? Would she stay or would she keep going to your house? Would she try to find a way back to her home province? That sounds like a scary prospect too.

 

What a difficult position to be in. It's too bad she isn't willing to move. She may not be able to live with you but she would have more access to you guys. I see it as a potential for more drama and I'm surprised she isn't thinking of that part. :(

[Impish]

I know. Cousin is playing the, "He's your only child, your only gcc live there, you should be closer to them, see them more often, be a part of their lives" card as strongly as he can.

 

The only other option is for Wolf to take a wk off work, drive down there in hopes of convincing her...but right now, our van won't make that kind of trip, and all going well, we're supposed to be having a new vehicle early next wk...but once we put the down payment on that, we won't have the $ to pay for that kind of trip.

 

It's a mess. This vehicle wouldn't make it, and when we have one that does, we no longer have the $ to make that kind of trip. And if he couldn't convince her to come back w/him, it's a waste of $. Plus, he's probation at work isn't up til next mth, and we're moving next mth. So, earliest btwn work and move that he could possibly make the trip is Oct...and unless a miracle occurs, we won't have the $ to do it, after buying a new (to us) vehicle and moving costs.

 

He can't just show up and announce to her she's moving. Unless its HER idea, forget it.

[Farrar]

It seems pretty simple to me. Surely there is a senior's home, assisted living or personal care home near you, probably more than one within 50 miles or so. Apply on her behalf for a space there. Get her on waiting lists if necessary, or it is possible that a space may already be available. Reciprocal agreements are in place between provinces to transfer health care. That shouldn't be an issue, just paperwork.

 

Once a space becomes available, just go get her and move her in. If you have to collect a posse to do it, just do it. All this foot-dragging is just extending a bunch of drama that is completely unnecessary and inherently deterimental to her, you and all of her loved ones.

 

There comes a point where the foot must come down. Firmly.

 

:iagree: She clearly needs to be in a community that can deal with these issues. It seems pretty obvious to me too.

[Impish]

:iagree: She clearly needs to be in a community that can deal with these issues. It seems pretty obvious to me too.

I agree w/you.

 

It's *how* to make that happen that we're trying to figure out.

[mom4him]

:grouphug:Praying

[Momof3littles]

I don't understand how the medical system there works, but can she be seen for a full workup, exam, and diagnosis right now without having to do the POA? Would that trigger the need for her to stay in the same province from that point forward? Or does it only work that way if she gets admitted into a long term care facility in a different province?

 

If possible, I'd start with the thorough workup, see how advanced her disease is, and from there decide on the viability of her living in her own place with an excellent support system and help as needed vs. long term care placement.

 

Will she agree to an evaluation and workup without needing to resort to a POA situation?

Edited August 17, 2012 by Momof3littles

[AK_Mom4]

I agree w/you.

 

It's *how* to make that happen that we're trying to figure out.

 

My personal experience with this is that it has to get worse before it can get better.

 

:grouphug:

 

Until things get "really bad", like police/RCMP multipe times bad, your MIL will choose to just keep things the way they are. It took things getting ridiculously inconvenient for my relative before they would move into a senior living place.

 

:grouphug:

 

You can calmly suggest places, but I'm afraid you will just have to wait it out - with all the stress and drama that involves.

[mamakim]

:grouphug: What happened with both my dad and my MIL who each have Alzheimer's is that they did stuff that got them a clear diagnosis without being a danger. I mean, dementia doesn't necessarily move super quickly, so October might very well be fine as far as Wolf making a trip, and her progression of dementia might move her into clear Alzheimer's without danger.

 

Uhm. That was super garbled. Like - my dad would do stuff like not being able to remember how a belt went into belt loops, and forgot where the bathroom in his house was, but was still entirely safe with his power tools. My MIL thinks there is "The Johnston Family" living in her house. We'll phone, and she'll be doing something for "The Johnstons". But thankfully she hasn't done anything dangerous yet, because we're having a horrible time getting her placed somewhere safe - and we're over 1000 miles away so I really feel your helpless frustration.

[Kathryn]

:grouphug: What a difficult situation.

[Impish]

Thanks everyone.

[Impish]

I don't understand how the medical system there works, but can she be seen for a full workup, exam, and diagnosis right now without having to do the POA? Would that trigger the need for her to stay in the same province from that point forward? Or does it only work that way if she gets admitted into a long term care facility in a different province?

 

If possible, I'd start with the thorough workup, see how advanced her disease is, and from there decide on the viability of her living in her own place with an excellent support system and help as needed vs. long term care placement.

 

Will she agree to an evaluation and workup without needing to resort to a POA situation?

She's refused to be assessed previously. Complete rage at the very idea. I don't know that it will be possible to do w/out invoking the POA.

 

As I understand it, once the dx happens, we may well be hooped, unless we're moving her in w/us.

 

I've left some msgs today, to try and find out exactly how it would work, if she went into care in BC and we wanted her transferred here, if anything has changed from what I understood the situation to be before, etc.

[mommaduck]

Sounds like it might be good to just send Wolf and Cousin in to just pack her up and move her anyhow?

[Impish]

Sounds like it might be good to just send Wolf and Cousin in to just pack her up and move her anyhow?

Like I said, I don't see how we could afford for him to go there.

 

And, unless she's been deemed incompetant, she has the right to refuse.

[Momof3littles]

If she's admitting there's an issue now, have you tried gently broaching the evaluation again with her? Maybe she's realizing now that there really is an issue? Can you tell her that it would be good figure out where she is with the progression, or perhaps couch it as "ruling out" other causes like UTIs and things like that which are known to cause dementia-like symptoms sometimes in the elderly?

[Impish]

I'll mention it to Wolf, thanks.

[Harriet Vane]

Unfortunately, I think your hands are tied, as you well know. :grouphug:

 

We had a very similar situation with my grandmother. There were years that no one could do anything about it because of her and the choices she made, and also years that those that had the power to act chose to live in denial. The situation got uglier and uglier for more than a decade (15 or 16 years) before it was resolved. The final resolution took a year itself, and included a doctor's diagnosis (VERY difficult for me to arrange and only possible because the dr was a kind, sympathetic man), multiple small auto accidents, repeated complaints from Grandma's senior housing apartment complex, and ultimately police intervention.

 

The police intervention is a story in and of itself, and was the final straw in the cascade of upsetting events. Grandma was driving so erratically that someone called the cops (probably thought she was drunk). The cops pulled her over, and she was so upset and rattled by the police presence that she couldn't remember ANYTHING. They brought her in to the station and searched her purse, where they found a phone number (not mine). They called that number, and that person told the police that (1) that person would not take responsibility for her but (2) the family had been in steady denial about Grandma's senility. That person then provided contact information for one of Grandma's kids and asked the cop to do what he could to help this person understand how serious Grandma's dementia was. The police were wonderful. They made the situation *crystal clear* to the daughter and strongly advised her not to allow Grandma to drive anymore. Coupled with the senior apartment building's refusal to allow her to continue renting there, the hands of the family were tied and they finally gave some attention to settling her somewhere safe and appropriate. I was both relieved to have it finally taken care of, and saddened that such a traumatic event (for Grandma) had to happen before they would do anything.

 

One comfort to hold to, though a cold comfort, is the fact that these difficulties are of your mil's own creation. She made the choices that make this situation what it is, and her choices about who to be and how to treat people are what will make this so much more difficult for her. If she does truly end up in a nursing home far from Wolf, that will have been the result of her own unfortunate stubbornness and selfishness. It's not what you want for her, but it's not your fault either.

[Anne in CA]

My mother had an elderly neighbor that slipped into dementia for years and her family was in denial. She didn't drive so she didn't have the opportunity to hurt anyone, but she sometimes ate spoiled food and got sick. She had a silk plant that she thought was growing and she gave people, "starts" off of it, lol. It was the very hard for my mother to get her family to put her in a nursing home. I wonder if they didn't want to pay for it. It is a horrific expense.

 

Imp, I wonder if your MIL would move close to you if you hint, not promise, HINT that it is a step toward her moving in with you, and by the time her dementia is worse you can do something to help her find a safe place to live close to you where she can be checked on. That is my best suggestion, and it isn't very good, but it may be all you can do if you want her to move near you.

[Impish]

Strider, I'm so sorry for what your Gma went through. :grouphug: Thank you for sharing your/her experience, and the support. It's truly appreciated.

 

Anne, she's been very clear. She moves in w/us, or she's staying put. We offered, several yrs ago, to have her live w/us for a month or so until she found an apt. She yoyo'd us around...yes she was, no she wasn't...and then it came out (much later) that she was offended that it was a temp arrangement. Not acceptable for her.

[LaxMom]

Strider, I'm so sorry for what your Gma went through. :grouphug: Thank you for sharing your/her experience, and the support. It's truly appreciated.

 

Anne, she's been very clear. She moves in w/us, or she's staying put. We offered, several yrs ago, to have her live w/us for a month or so until she found an apt. She yoyo'd us around...yes she was, no she wasn't...and then it came out (much later) that she was offended that it was a temp arrangement. Not acceptable for her.

 

Sigh. :grouphug: Such a terrible spot to be in. Unfortunately, the boundary that her living with you is not an option or open to negotiation isn't going to change her outlook.

 

Is there an option to have her deemed in need of supervision and moved to an assisted living arrangement where she can maintain some independence but will have staff to look in on her? Is there an elder care organization or family lawyer you can go to for advice?

 

It seems sort of hyperbolic to have her deemed incompetent at this point, but you've really come to that or allowing her to go until she endangers herself (or others) to get her some help. It's ridiculous that she can tie everyone's hands so effectively, simply by refusing to accept that she cannot live with you.

[Impish]

Sigh. :grouphug: Such a terrible spot to be in. Unfortunately, the boundary that her living with you is not an option or open to negotiation isn't going to change her outlook.

 

Is there an option to have her deemed in need of supervision and moved to an assisted living arrangement where she can maintain some independence but will have staff to look in on her? Is there an elder care organization or family lawyer you can go to for advice?

 

It seems sort of hyperbolic to have her deemed incompetent at this point, but you've really come to that or allowing her to go until she endangers herself (or others) to get her some help. It's ridiculous that she can tie everyone's hands so effectively, simply by refusing to accept that she cannot live with you.

She told Wolf about a yr ago that she'd applied to be on the list for an assisted living placement. His response was, "Good, that will be a good thing for you!"

 

Totally not what she wanted. She was using it as a goad for him to ante up and offer to move her in. Turned out, it was a threat. She never did apply anywhere, for any list, and refuses to do so.

[brehon]

Strider, I'm so sorry for what your Gma went through. :grouphug: Thank you for sharing your/her experience, and the support. It's truly appreciated.

 

Anne, she's been very clear. She moves in w/us, or she's staying put. We offered, several yrs ago, to have her live w/us for a month or so until she found an apt. She yoyo'd us around...yes she was, no she wasn't...and then it came out (much later) that she was offended that it was a temp arrangement. Not acceptable for her.

 

Unfortunately, that's your answer right there. She's made up her mind by the sounds of it. I know it's hard and frustrating; but, unless your province's (& more importantly *her* province's) laws re: POA are radically different from my state's laws (& it certainly is possible given that we're in 2different countries) Wolf and his cousin are stuck. As you well know it would NOT be a good idea for her to move into your house - for myriad reasons. Do not entertain that thought for even a nanosecond.

 

I agree with Strider - your MIL made her choices and she'll need to live the consequences. Neither you nor Wolf should let anyone (including yourselves) guilt you into doing something which could be very detrimental to your family. :grouphug:

Edited August 18, 2012 by brehon

[Denisemomof4]

:sad::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Impish]

Unfortunately, that's your answer right there. She's made up her mind by the sounds of it. I know it's hard and frustrating; but, unless your province's (& more importantly *her* province's) laws re: POA are radically different from my state's laws (& it certainly is possible given that we're in 2different countries) Wolf and his cousin are stuck. As you well know it would NOT be a good idea for her to move into your house - for myriad reasons. Do not entertain that thought for even a nanosecond.

 

I agree with Strider - your MIL made her choices and she'll need to live the consequences. Neither you nor Wolf should let anyone (including yourselves) guilt you into doing something which could be very detrimental to your family. :grouphug:

Honestly, as insane as it sounds, I've been on that edge. I *know* it's not in anyone's best interest, w/my disability I can't even ensure anyone's physical safety, let alone provide any level of care. Or deal w/the psychological reality of someone w/NPD under the same roof...NPD *and* dementia. This sucks.

:sad::grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

Thanks.

[brehon]

Honestly, as insane as it sounds, I've been on that edge. I *know* it's not in anyone's best interest, w/my disability I can't even ensure anyone's physical safety, let alone provide any level of care. Or deal w/the psychological reality of someone w/NPD under the same roof...NPD *and* dementia. This sucks.

 

Imagine giving yourself the same professional advice you'd give someone else in your position. I know it's hard; but, your (and your family's) physical and emotional (& possibly financial) health could be negatively affected. And you're absolutely right about NPD & dementia, especially if neither conditions are medicated. :grouphug: again. I know this isn't easy for you.

[kristi26]

:grouphug: No words, just offering hugs and prayers. :( That would be so rough!

[Impish]

Thanks, everyone.

 

I really appreciate how folks can understand that as difficult as she is, and as much drama as she pulls, we can still want what's best for her health and safety, and be worried.