TranquilMind Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 What you "contractually receive" is membership in a "homeschooling advocacy organization." There is no contractual obligation for them to provide legal representation. And yet the primary reason most people join is so that they will have legal representation of they need it — because HSLDA leads people to believe that they will get that. I suspect that many many members do NOT realize that HSLDA may or may not take their case, regardless of how long they've been paying dues. Jackie Well that's not worth paying for, is it? Not to me, anyway. Guess that's why I have never been a member. And have any consumer complaints been filed and resolved in the favor of the people? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juniper Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 See post #142 -- cut and pasted directly from HSLDA's website. I personally know a family that received representation without being members. ;) But no one said non-members could not receive help. All we're trying to point out is that membership is not a GUARANTEE of representation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrairieSong Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Guess what? In all the states that require no reporting, people are "under the radar" the entire time they homeschool. And they got exactly the same education that family would have provided regardless of the state of residence! Sure, different states have different laws. Different traffic laws, different homeschooling laws. You are required to do different things depending on the laws of the state in which you live. The Cressys were not in compliance with the homeschooling law in their state. What is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) Guess what? In all the states that require no reporting, people are "under the radar" the entire time they homeschool. And they got exactly the same education that family would have provided regardless of the state of residence! Quite right. Whether NY state laws are overboard or not isn't what we've been discussing though. The question was whether the Cressy case is, as HSLDA would have us believe, evidence that you could be "Arrested for Homeschooling" and thus should join HSLDA. To which many of us have replied - know your state law, read it for yourself, and be careful to be in compliance, because if you do so, you are in a much stronger legal position if anyone questions your homeschooling, and you will be extremely unlikely to end up like the Cressys. You have the evidence to support a "willful" violation? Maybe it was just an inadvertent violation. Maybe it was negligence. You just don't know. I'm not of the "round them up and shoot them" mentality for failing to file a document. So file the stupid document late, and pay any fine attached, if any. Don't swoop in and threaten to take their kids away via CPS! You can't seriously not see this. In PA, that's how it's usually handled. A stern talking-to, file the document, everyone moves on. But it only takes one person at the school district or CPS to make it much, much worse. No one here is arguing that CPS wasn't going overboard in the Cressly case. We're just saying that if you fail to file nine years worth of intent documents, educational plans, quarterly reports, and evaluations (or whatever it is that NY requires), then you're putting yourself and your children in a very vulnerable position. And that, contrary to HSLDA's spin on it, the Cressly case's primary lesson isn't "make sure you've got a lawyer on speed dial for $100 a year", but rather "number one, follow the dang law". Edited July 31, 2012 by askPauline Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiana Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Did the police swoop in and take you away or threaten to remove your kids, as obviously you cannot be responsible for kids if you speed (even f it was just one time)! :tongue_smilie: No. I bet you paid the ticket and the fine, right? Well, actually, they did swoop in and take me away. They arrested me, because there was a warrant out. After I got someone to pay the fine, they let me go. They applied the precise penalty under the law. And if I'd had a kid with me, they possibly would have ended up in foster care overnight. What's the penalty for unregistered homeschooling? As far as I can see, it's considered the same as if your child were just truant. Just because you don't like the laws or don't think they're necessary doesn't mean that you should be able to break them with impunity. "But the other state has no regulation!" really has no bearing either. It's not like they just forgot to file once, either. They didn't file for several years and apparently didn't get noticed because they weren't on the books at all. Now, I do think the charges filed are excessive. But I can see why the state's apparently just treating it as a case of truancy. Just like, if you're driving on a suspended license, explaining that you didn't realize your license was suspended isn't going to get you a 'well dear, go renew it asap' -- no, you'll get ticketed for driving on a suspended license, and the judge may or may not take that into consideration at trial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 You have the evidence to support a "willful" violation? Maybe it was just an inadvertent violation. Maybe it was negligence. You just don't know. I'm not of the "round them up and shoot them" mentality for failing to file a document. So file the stupid document late, and pay any fine attached, if any. Don't swoop in and threaten to take their kids away via CPS! You can't seriously not see this. No one is saying they agree with the law. I am sure we would all like to do what we want. There are laws in some states and those must be adhered to. To homeschool in complete disregard to the law is irresponsible. If your child is truant, even in states with liberal homeschool laws, there are going to be consequences. We don't have to like it, it just is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Can you show me what the criteria are for assistance? I looked on the site and don't see what they are selling anywhere. Maybe you have to sign up, which I am not going to do. I just want to know what the contractual obligation is if you pay the fee. There has to be one. No, because in essence it's actually an advocacy organization - It's a lobby group. That's what you're really joining and what your dollars support. And that's absolutely fine if you believe in what they're lobbying for. As with some lobby groups, they offer their lawyers in cases that further their causes but they are under no obligation to provide those lawyers. To provide what you, and many folks, think they do provide they would have to offer legal insurance and they state they do not offer that. I'm guessing that's because there are regulations they'd have to conform to that would limit or eliminate, their prime concern, the lobbying. And all that would be fine except for the fact that they market themselves as what they state they are not. The proof of that is simply in reading the posts of defenders. Most are not about the HSLDA's lobbying efforts, they're about joining the HSLDA just in case they have issues that they need legal help for. The HSLDA alerts are all about people calling them for their help. People sign up thinking the HSLDA is one thing and learn later it is another and their membership dollars are going to support causes they did not intend to support. It's essentially a bait-and-switch operation. I think the HSLDA probably does exactly the kind of work many of it's members want done but how it raises the money to do those things is, to me, unethical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Well that's not worth paying for, is it? Not to me, anyway. Guess that's why I have never been a member. And have any consumer complaints been filed and resolved in the favor of the people? Why would consumer complaints be filed in regard to something that is stated clearly on the website? There are instructions on toothpicks. If I shove a packet of toothpicks into my nose can I sue? No! That would be ridiculous! The toothpick instructions say not to put them in my nose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 OK, but you have to admit that is in tiny print hidden in between a lot of other text...*and* what is the rest of that sentence?? (You conveniently left out the rest of the statement...) *and* that is an IRS regulation...*NOT* an HSLDA policy... Because the HSLDA is reaping tax benefits by being registered as an advocacy group rather then a legal insurer perhaps? To me, if they're registered as one thing, they should represent themselves as that thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 That page will not load. It appears to be a member only page. What does that mean? "Consistent with IRS regs"? That, standing alone, makes no sense. It very likely means they are registered with the IRS as a certain kind of group to get tax benefits. If they guaranteed their services it would violate the regulations for whatever kind of operation they're registered as and the IRS would be knocking at their door ready to levy fines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 See post #142 -- cut and pasted directly from HSLDA's website. I personally know a family that received representation without being members. ;) I suspect many of us have known people who didn't realize the HSLDA could choose not to represent them. I've known a couple myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeslieAnneLevine Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 In Michigan, Clonlara fought for (and won!) homeschoolers' rights. Michigan is one of the easiest states to homeschool in. I'm sure there are HSLDA members in Michigan--what a waste of money. Even if they support HSLDA's other causes they'd be better off giving to organizations that deal with whatever issue it is exclusively, rather than having it mixed up with homeschooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 TranquilMind, do you think that parents have the right to refuse to educate their children, or fail to educate their children? If a child is not being educated - not sent to school, not homeschooled, not provided with resources for unschooling - is that anyone's business but the parents'? Or is that fully the parents' choice? Now everyone knows that the Cressys were providing their children with a complete homeschooling education. Now it's easy to look at that case and think "Wow, how completely inappropriate - just because they didn't file the forms, that doesn't mean their children were being neglected in any way." We have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, not to mention multiple statements from the Cressys and their lawyers. But what was known then, when the authorities sent CPS to the house? All that was known was that there were these kids who were not enrolled in school or identified as homeschoolers - kids for whom there was no evidence whatsoever that they were receiving an education of any kind. Should they have just shrugged their shoulders and said, "Oh well, what happens to those kids is their parents' business?" Look, I don't want the state leaning over my shoulder any more than anyone else does. But I recognize that my children have a right to basic food, shelter, clothing, medical care, and education, a right which is not solely dependent on my whims. If there are concerns that my children's basic needs are not being met, the only real mechanism there is for checking up on that is the state. I have known too many abused and neglected kids to deny that. Yes, you might say, but the Cressy kids WEREN'T being neglected. Again: we only know that now. They couldn't know that then without investigating. Which they did. When it became clear that no neglect had occurred, the Cressys were allowed to file their paperwork without penalty or obstruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justasque Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Because the HSLDA is reaping tax benefits by being registered as an advocacy group rather then a legal insurer perhaps? To me, if they're registered as one thing, they should represent themselves as that thing. It very likely means they are registered with the IRS as a certain kind of group to get tax benefits. If they guaranteed their services it would violate the regulations for whatever kind of operation they're registered as and the IRS would be knocking at their door ready to levy fines. HSLDA says they are a 501©(4) organization. "HSLDA is a nonprofit national membership organization of families who homeschool their children. HSLDA is organized as a 501©(4) nonprofit, tax-exempt organization under the rules of the IRS." (Quoted from here.) "To be tax-exempt as a social welfare organization described in Internal Revenue Code (IRC) section 501©(4), an organization must not be organized for profit and must be operated exclusively to promote social welfare." (Quoted from here.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 (edited) That page will not load. It appears to be a member only page. What does that mean? "Consistent with IRS regs"? That, standing alone, makes no sense. HSLDA is a 501©4 non-profit organization. That category is for "Civic Leagues, Social Welfare Organizations, and Local Associations of Employees" Super PACs are 501©4s 501©(4) organizations are generally civic leagues and other corporations operated exclusively for the promotion of social welfare, or local associations of employees with membership limited to a designated company or people in a particular municipality or neighborhood, and with net earnings devoted exclusively to charitable, educational, or recreational purposes.[32] 501©(4) organizations may lobby for legislation, and unlike 501©(3) organizations they may also participate in political campaigns and elections, as long as its primary activity is the promotion of social welfare.[33] The tax exemption for 501©(4) organizations applies to most of their operations, but contributions may be subject to gift tax, and income spent on political activities - generally the advocacy of a particular candidate in an election - is taxable.[34] Contributions to 501©(4) organizations are usually not deductible as charitable contributions for U.S. federal income tax, with a few exceptions.[35] 501©(4) organizations are not required to disclose their donors publicly.[36] This aspect of the law has led to extensive use of the 501©(4) provisions for organizations that are actively involved in lobbying, and has become controversial.[37][38] In 2010, a bill (the DISCLOSE Act) was passed by the U.S. House of Representatives that addressed identification of donors to organizations involved in political advocacy,[39] but the Senate Republicans filibustered and prevented a vote on the bill.[40] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/501©#501.28c.29.284.29 To compare it to another "legal representation organization", the ACLU actually has its legal and lobbying areas of the organization separate. It is a 501©4 and a 501©3 as well. http://www.aclu.org/american-civil-liberties-union-and-aclu-foundation-what-difference Although there is some overlap in the work done by each organization, certain activities the ACLU does to protect civil liberties must be done by one organization and not the other. This is primarily in the area of lobbying. The American Civil Liberties Union engages in legislative lobbying. As an organization that is eligible to receive contributions that are tax-deductible by the contributor, federal law limits the extent to which the ACLU Foundation's may engage in lobbying activities. Therefore, most of the lobbying activity done by the ACLU and discussed in this Web site is done by the American Civil Liberties Union. By contrast, most of the ACLU's litigation and communication efforts described in this Web site are done by the ACLU Foundation. I think it is great they have structured it so you can choose where your money goes. Edited July 31, 2012 by Sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Word Nerd Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 HSLDA says they are a 501©(4) organization. "HSLDA is a nonprofit national membership organization of families who homeschool their children. HSLDA is organized as a 501©(4) nonprofit, tax-exempt organization under the rules of the IRS." (Quoted from here.) "To be tax-exempt as a social welfare organization described in Internal Revenue Code (IRC) section 501©(4), an organization must not be organized for profit and must be operated exclusively to promote social welfare." (Quoted from here.) Also, from their Membership Agreement: "Membership fees are not tax deductible. HSLDA is not an insurance company." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 HSLDA want you to think you NEED them. You don't. There are alternative organisations out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 But you'd better be glad this organization exists. It has assisted lots of home schoolers in the pioneer days. We are all comfortable now that home schoolers are acknowledged, but there was a day that this was illegal or simply not done, and HSLDA was quite helpful in those days to those people who made it easier for us today. Actually, as I understand it, the modern homeschooling movement in this country was started by leftist and hippie types in the 1960s and 1970s. And the legal precedents usually get traced to Yoder in the early 1970s. The HSLDA wasn't even founded until a couple of decades later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Under what circumstances will your case be refused if you are a dues-paying member. They can and do refuse if they think they can't win it, if they're too busy, if you don't fit their criteria, if the wind is blowing from the south . . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mergath Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 They can and do refuse if they think they can't win it, if they're too busy, if you don't fit their criteria, if the wind is blowing from the south . . . :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny in Florida Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 HEl_L yes, it matters! This is exactly what Germany did in the 30's. Better register those Jews! It doesn't matter why...just follow the law! That is, without a doubt, the most offensive and insensitive remark I've read on these boards in quite some time. Being required to follow the law when making a choice about the way you educate your children is in no way comparable to the attempted genocide of an entire religious/ethnic group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quad Shot Academy Posted July 31, 2012 Share Posted July 31, 2012 Even though we appear to be the picture perfect HSLDA type family, we have never joined for most of the pp's reasons. I could afford to hire a lawyer and figured I just would if anything happened. I will say that I am questioning that now. I have a friend who had cps come to her house twice during school hours and she was not home. A judge declared her children truant for not being at their school during school hours and gave legal custody of her children to the state while they investigated. I will not go into any more details to protect her privacy, but HSLDA did what I could never do. They had the conections to have multiple experts flown in overnight to evaluate her children and flown back several times to testify in her behalf. I do not have the connections to find experts willing to come to my defense overnight, and probably not that kind of money either. I have had several IRL friends have CPS walk away w/o followup by printing off the homeschool law and showing their children's work. I have had 2 IRL friends refuse to co-operate and call HSLDA and both had year long battles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I swear, the bitterness against HSLDA and the reasons given for such make me want to run out and renew my membership right now. If you're liberal and and secular and don't believe in the family structure and think that the government knows better how to raise your children than you do, then you will hate HSLDA. If you believe in traditional family values, then you will probably like them and appreciate their services. I know liberals, secular, Pagan, Christian, etc that DO believe in the family structure and don't want the government in their business, but also don't want HSLDA acting like they speak for ALL homeschoolers when they obviously don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 That is, without a doubt, the most offensive and insensitive remark I've read on these boards in quite some time. Being required to follow the law when making a choice about the way you educate your children is in no way comparable to the attempted genocide of an entire religious/ethnic group. :iagree: It's fear mongering. Sheesh, and I remember back when I fell for it :glare: Technically, most of us are "registered" (social security numbers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 (edited) Quite right. Whether NY state laws are overboard or not isn't what we've been discussing though. The question was whether the Cressy case is, as HSLDA would have us believe, evidence that you could be "Arrested for Homeschooling" and thus should join HSLDA. To which many of us have replied - know your state law, read it for yourself, and be careful to be in compliance, because if you do so, you are in a much stronger legal position if anyone questions your homeschooling, and you will be extremely unlikely to end up like the Cressys. In PA, that's how it's usually handled. A stern talking-to, file the document, everyone moves on. But it only takes one person at the school district or CPS to make it much, much worse. No one here is arguing that CPS wasn't going overboard in the Cressly case. We're just saying that if you fail to file nine years worth of intent documents, educational plans, quarterly reports, and evaluations (or whatever it is that NY requires), then you're putting yourself and your children in a very vulnerable position. And that, contrary to HSLDA's spin on it, the Cressly case's primary lesson isn't "make sure you've got a lawyer on speed dial for $100 a year", but rather "number one, follow the dang law". Funny thing is, I spoke with someone at HSLDA (can't remember his name) right before moving to PA. He informed me that they had several members that were homeschooling under the radar here and he came pretty close to encouraging us to do the same. He stated that they wanted the laws in PA to change. Seems to me that they were begging for a fight and setting it up to create one :glare: We decided not to renew after that and have simply played by the rules like everyone else. Yes, the paperwork is a nuisance, oh well, so are many other things in life (bills, work, etc). Edited August 1, 2012 by mommaduck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kalanamak Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 HEl_L yes, it matters! This is exactly what Germany did in the 30's. Better register those Jews! It doesn't matter why...just follow the law! Yes. It matters why. I smell Godwin's Law! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnsinkableKristen Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 I smell Godwin's Law! :lol: It REALLY is amazing how true this is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elegantlion Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 :lol: It REALLY is amazing how true this is. :lol::lol:For those unfamiliar with this law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TranquilMind Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 HSLDA want you to think you NEED them. You don't. There are alternative organisations out there. True. Every organization wants you to think you NEED it. We usually, but not always -in the case of monopolies- have choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mschickie Posted August 1, 2012 Share Posted August 1, 2012 :iagree: That doesn't matter. If they had followed the law, they could have shown their paperwork and that would be the end of it. Their illegal actions were discovered as a result of the visit. THAT was the problem, not that their children were playing during school hours. The thing was the distrtict was fine with them after they turned in the paperwork it was CPS and the prosecutor who kept the case going even though the district said they were in compliance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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