HSLDA?

[dbmamaz]

I am a liberal homeschooler and I do find it disconcerting that many conservatives seem to believe that conservative values are crucial for homeschooling. Many liberals manage to home school effectively without conservative values.

 

OTOH i also found it very disturbing that, when the 'tebow' bill came up in my state, to allow homeschoolers to participate in high school sports, every single democrat voted against it.

 

It is frustrating that our country is so polarized. It really gets in the way of getting anything done or moving forward in any real way.

 

cant we all just get along!?!

[Kathryn]

 

The point is that I don't think it does any of us any good to have homeschooling ridigly aligned with one political philosophy. And I believe that the image the HSLDA portrays of homeschoolers actually does a disservice to the general cause.

 

:iagree:

[Rivka]

I am concerned that if homeschooling gets put into a conservative box in the eyes of politicians, when liberals are in power they (liberal politicians) will be reflexively anti-homeschooling. If homeschooling is more accurately portrayed as something that families all across the political spectrum embrace, then we are more likely to get bi-partisan support, which makes us all stronger and safer. In addition, advocates who make it a point to understand the wide range of approaches and philosophies within the homeschooling community, including both stereotypical ABeka-using Christians and stereotypical hippie leftie secular unschoolers (and everything in-between), are more likely to craft or advocate for legislation that works for a wide range of families, instead of assuming that everyone homeschools in a particular way, for particular reasons.

 

Absolutely.

[Soror]

I'm a conservative (although I'm sure not conservative enough for some) and agree w/ a lot of HSLDA's views however I don't like their fearmongering and feel they are in things way too much that they have no business dealing with. I really get annoyed at all the action alerts I get passed on to me with them drumming up paranoia and such.

[Alice]

I get the feeling this could be a controversial subject but that's not the purpose of this post.

 

As I've said before I'm brand new to homeschooling. The HSLDA was one of the first places I found when I was looking for what is required of us by law. Since then I've been encouraged to join by some while others whisper that its a crock.

 

If you are a member of the HSLDA why did you join? If you think its not worth the money, why do you hold that opinion?

 

I appreciate any well thought out opinions you can give!

 

I joined the first year (or maybe two, I can’t remember) that we homeschooled. As a new homeschooler I had been told by many people that we should join so that we’d have them as a safety net if we had a problem. Since then we’ve decided not to join for a few reasons.

 

1) We decided it wasn’t worth our money.

 

Most of the anecdotes people have told me about using them have been for things that I thought were fairly minor or that in my opinion could have been resolved without a lawyer. For example, people who had the school district question something in their yearly notification to homeschool and instead of just writing a letter or calling them they contacted HSLDA and had them send a letter. When the school district backed off they read that as them being scared of a lawyer, but they never really tried resolution without a lawyer.

 

I’m sure there are people who have had more serious cases where they have helped them and I imagine in the earlier days of homeschooling they may have been more needed and more involved in fighting for homeschooling rights. However, we are well educated, live in an area that is fairly homeschooling friendly, there are oodles of other homeschoolers that have set precedents and we have friends who are lawyers who could help us if needed. (I understand those aren’t true for everyone but I’m just answering the OP about why we didn’t renew our membership).

 

2) I felt increasingly uncomfortable with their political agenda. I probably fit into their demographic of a “good homeschooler†as a conservative Christian who is mostly politically conservative. However, I have been frustrated at both homeschooling conferences and by organizations like HSLDA who seem to want to define homeschooling as a particular worldview. Or even assume that because I’m a Christian conservative woman that I must agree with them on every issue. I don’t like being put in a box even if on the surface I fit in that box.

 

As I was typing this my thought was that I feel the same way about the HSLDA as I do about feminist groups. Yes, I’m thankful for their sacrifices in the past which have given me opportunities and paved the way to make things easier for me. But that doesn’t mean that I need to agree with everything they think. Both groups seem to believe that if you agree with them about one thing you must agree with them about all.

[AdventureMoms]

 

I think we would see a different response to HSLDA if they presented themselves as an organization that lobbies for conservative social causes, particularly those related to parental control. But they don't. They present themselves as the voice of homeschoolers, representing and portraying the views of homeschoolers.

 

I live in a liberal state with a Democratic governor and a heavily Democratic legislature. Having homeschooling be strongly associated in people's minds with a conservative Republican agenda does not protect my homeschooling freedoms - it threatens them. I want homeschooling to be portrayed as a nonpartisan educational choice. I don't want it bundled together with other positions that my legislators oppose.

 

How about AdventureMoms and other lesbian homeschoolers on this board? When HSLDA argues that the right to homeschool depends on banning gay marriage (seriously, they did say that), do you think AdventureMoms feels represented? And yet they use their considerable financial and political power to argue that state legislatures should take their word for what "homeschoolers" want... all homeschoolers.

 

:iagree: I'm far from conservative in most areas, but even if you are, do you REALLY want all the liberal politicians to think that homeschooling goes hand-in-hand with a heavily conservative agenda? I don't want to deal with backlash every time power changes hands. Homeschooling is not a conservative or liberal thing. My marriage certainly has nothing to do with it! If you get homeschooling all tied up in unrelated issues, then you are making our educational rights a political pawn.

 

 

I guess the disagreement is whether or not those issues have anything to do with homeschooling.

 

I suspect we stand on the exact opposite side of nearly all those issues. Yet here I am, homeschooling. We could be on the same side on that one, but HSLDA is kind of insuring that that is not possible by mixing all the issues up.

 

 

:eek::svengo::banghead: Seriously? They are going to oppose a non-discrimination against women treaty? :tongue_smilie:

 

Yeah...:glare:

 

I am a liberal homeschooler and I do find it disconcerting that many conservatives seem to believe that conservative values are crucial for homeschooling. Many liberals manage to home school effectively without conservative values.

 

OTOH i also found it very disturbing that, when the 'tebow' bill came up in my state, to allow homeschoolers to participate in high school sports, every single democrat voted against it.

 

It is frustrating that our country is so polarized. It really gets in the way of getting anything done or moving forward in any real way.

 

cant we all just get along!?!

 

:iagree::iagree:

[celticmom]

One point that I have not noticed mentioned yet about HSLDA was my primary reason for selecting another organization(Homeschool Legal Advantage). I found their application to be way too complicated and invasive. I do not like providing too much information unless and until it is needed. If the information is "out there" it is out of your control and if the organization that has it has inadequate security measures there is no telling where it can end up(but I tend to err on the side of mild paronoia due to some information security classes I have taken).

[Soror]

As I was typing this my thought was that I feel the same way about the HSLDA as I do about feminist groups. Yes, I’m thankful for their sacrifices in the past which have given me opportunities and paved the way to make things easier for me. But that doesn’t mean that I need to agree with everything they think. Both groups seem to believe that if you agree with them about one thing you must agree with them about all.

 

:iagree::iagree:

[LittleIzumi]

I swear, the bitterness against HSLDA and the reasons given for such make me want to run out and renew my membership right now. If you're liberal and and secular and don't believe in the family structure and think that the government knows better how to raise your children than you do, then you will hate HSLDA. If you believe in traditional family values, then you will probably like them and appreciate their services.

 

HSLDA supports parental rights amendments, contrary to the UN and other organizations that are trying to erode the rights of the parents. They do lobby on behalf of that cause. If you believe in parental rights, you probably won't mind indirectly funding their activities on that matter. If you think the US should be more like Europe or Canada, parental rights will probably irritate you and you might want to consider other options.

 

In our state, I have seen them consistently try to minimize legislation overseeing homeschoolers. They take the proposed legislation and explain their position on it and what changes they believe should be made. I have yet to disagree with any of their suggestions - in our state. I do not claim to be an expert on legislation in other states.

 

 

We just had a thread on here about HSLDA fear-mongering (which made its way into my inbox) that is completely untrue about a UN treaty going up for a vote and how it will erode our rights. No treaty can supercede the US. Constitution. Period. I'm not going to support an organization that uses fear-mongering and lies as normal tactics, even if I do support "traditional family values" (and am also liberal. How weird is that).

[dirty ethel rackham]

I'm a lifetime member, and I have used their services a few times. They were extremely helpful and polite, giving me as much time and help as I needed. I'm thankful that they advocate for homeschoolers and paved the way for us to have the freedoms that we have today.

 

I really hate the way they claim credit for homeschooling freedoms. I think it is a slap in the face of local groups who have been on the front lines, fighting for freedoms. They do all the work, then HSLDA swoops in and claims the credit. I have seen it over an over again in IL. We have good laws here. I wish they would stay away. We always have MORE work to do after they have come to town.

[Artichoke]

We were members of HSLDA for several years. We're no longer members because they seemed to not want any kind of civil relationship between local schools and local homeschoolers.

[Mrs Mungo]

I swear, the bitterness against HSLDA and the reasons given for such make me want to run out and renew my membership right now. If you're liberal and and secular and don't believe in the family structure and think that the government knows better how to raise your children than you do, then you will hate HSLDA. If you believe in traditional family values, then you will probably like them and appreciate their services.

 

I've been married to my military-officer husband for 18 years. We go to church. We are members of several organizations that are considered "conservative." Because those are the values that we claim for *ourselves*. However, we are "liberal" in the sense that we think that US is *not* a theocracy and we vote toward individual freedoms.

 

HSLDA supports parental rights amendments, contrary to the UN and other organizations that are trying to erode the rights of the parents. They do lobby on behalf of that cause. If you believe in parental rights, you probably won't mind indirectly funding their activities on that matter. If you think the US should be more like Europe or Canada, parental rights will probably irritate you and you might want to consider other options.

These are fear-mongering lies straight from the mouth of HSLDA. We've had thread after thread on these things. Don't you think as *homeschoolers* that we all probably support "parental rights?" But, it's a LIE that a treaty can be signed that supercedes or contradicts the US Constitution.

 

I've also seen them take cases in our state where homeschoolers were following the law but government authorities were extending their oversight beyond their bounds. So just because you are "following the law" doesn't mean you won't need to deal with authorities on some level.

I agree. In both Hawaii, North Carolina *and* in Germany, I've had to send letters or make phone calls to say, "this is the law, here's the text of it, you cannot require X, here is Y instead, which is required." That's been the end of it. I didn't need a lawyer to interfere. It makes people look crazy when they call a lawyer over something so small, imo.

 

In our state, if your children are in public school and miss a certain number of school days, even if those absences were excused you automatically get referred to the attorney general and have to hire a lawyer to defend yourself. That makes me nervous, even though my children are not in public school.

Why? If your kids are not in school, then that has nothing to do with you. That is the kind of fear-mongering that I'm talking about. They make people fear laws that have nothing to do with them, they prey upon those fears and extort money from those people, whom they may or may not help in the future.

 

As to whether prepaid legal assistance is necessary for homeschooling - that is the question.

No, it isn't. HSLDA is not pre-paid legal assistance. They *often* refuse to help families who have paid memberships for a whole variety of reasons.

 

I think we would see a different response to HSLDA if they presented themselves as an organization that lobbies for conservative social causes, particularly those related to parental control. But they don't. They present themselves as the voice of homeschoolers, representing and portraying the views of homeschoolers.

 

I agree. They represent themselves to *government officials* as representing all homeschoolers. That's a lie. They only represent the *most* conservative and/or paranoid factions.

 

I live in a liberal state with a Democratic governor and a heavily Democratic legislature. Having homeschooling be strongly associated in people's minds with a conservative Republican agenda does not protect my homeschooling freedoms - it threatens them. I want homeschooling to be portrayed as a nonpartisan educational choice. I don't want it bundled together with other positions that my legislators oppose.

Exactly. Homeschooling is a bi-partisan venture. There are as many hippies as conservatives and *lots* of us in the middle. The middle is growing all the time. It should NOT be labelled as conservative or liberal, because then one faction or another is going to be against it. I'm in favor of making it a bi-partisan issue, so that we are *all* better protected.

 

I am concerned that if homeschooling gets put into a conservative box in the eyes of politicians, when liberals are in power they (liberal politicians) will be reflexively anti-homeschooling. If homeschooling is more accurately portrayed as something that families all across the political spectrum embrace, then we are more likely to get bi-partisan support, which makes us all stronger and safer. In addition, advocates who make it a point to understand the wide range of approaches and philosophies within the homeschooling community, including both stereotypical ABeka-using Christians and stereotypical hippie leftie secular unschoolers (and everything in-between), are more likely to craft or advocate for legislation that works for a wide range of families, instead of assuming that everyone homeschools in a particular way, for particular reasons.

 

Breastfeeding advocates have traditionally taken a "don't mix issues" standpoint for their organizations, which enables both liberals and conservatives to put aside their differences and stand together on issues that affect breastfeeding mothers, and enables both liberal and conservative politicians to get involved with the issue. I think homeschooling organizations would be wise to follow their lead.

 

We are stronger when we stand together.

 

Exactly. :iagree:

[Delighted3]

I have belonged to HSLDA for years. I belong for the legal support. In general, I do not oppose most of the causes HSLDA supports, but I will agree their rhetoric is dramatic. However, I don't find that to be that unusual. It is a common ploy that a lot of non-profit groups use to gain support. They do bring a lot of things to my attention and I decide for myself whether I think it is important to get involved with or not.

 

Personally, I live in a state that is very easy to homeschool in and I know at least 2 people who have had very serious encounters with social workers. One caused by hateful in-laws and one caused by a birthing choice. HSLDA supported both families with legal counsel and in the first case was literally at the Mom's fingertips and spoke with the social worker at the door. Neither one of these cases were directly about homeschooling laws per se, but the family's were perceived as suspicious because they homeschooled.

 

HSLDA also sent a representative to our town as legal counsel for groups working against a daytime curfew law for our city. They were instrumental in working with the local gov't to change a curfew law that would have been detrimental to our homeschool teens.

 

I know I have probably wasted my time typing all this out, because people who disagree with HSLDA's conservative values will never agree that they can be a worthwhile organization, just as I will never agree to the value of most liberal organizations. :lol:

JMO,

Joy

[mschickie]

I absolutely promise I'm not being snarky: I would really like to hear details about these cases in which the HSLDA assisted people in your area and about the court cases. If you wouldn't mind sharing some information and/or pointing me to references, I'd genuinely appreciate it.

 

 

Don't worry Jenny I do not think you are snarky in asking for information. As for the cases the latest one I cannot talk about since the family has asked for privacy while the case is on going. The other really big one is the Cressy case. HSLDA has a youtube trailer on the case

I am sure you can google it too since it was all over the news a couple of years ago. I saw the Cressys speak at our hs convention a couple of years ago. It really reinforced for dh and I the need to stay memembers of HSLDA.

[Slartibartfast]

I swear, the bitterness against HSLDA and the reasons given for such make me want to run out and renew my membership right now. If you're liberal and and secular and don't believe in the family structure and think that the government knows better how to raise your children than you do, then you will hate HSLDA. If you believe in traditional family values, then you will probably like them and appreciate their services.

 

 

My husband and I are Christians who have been married for 12 years.

 

I posted links earlier in the thread regarding how the HSLDA has lobbied to increase regulations and make homeschooling MORE difficult for many families. That is a valid concern and not a single pro-HSLDA person has addressed it.

 

 

HSLDA supports parental rights amendments, contrary to the UN and other organizations that are trying to erode the rights of the parents. They do lobby on behalf of that cause. If you believe in parental rights, you probably won't mind indirectly funding their activities on that matter. If you think the US should be more like Europe or Canada, parental rights will probably irritate you and you might want to consider other options.

 

That was ridiculous hyperbole on the part of the HSLDA.

 

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/showthread.php?t=411913&highlight=hslda

 

In our state, I have seen them consistently try to minimize legislation overseeing homeschoolers. They take the proposed legislation and explain their position on it and what changes they believe should be made. I have yet to disagree with any of their suggestions - in our state. I do not claim to be an expert on legislation in other states.

 

And in many states they do the opposite.

Edited July 31, 2012 by Sis

[Momof3littles]

I'm uncomfortable with their non-HSing-related politics. I am also uncomfortable with how they've handled the crafting of laws in certain states, where it seems they overstepped and pushed aside the local groups.

 

I live in a highly regulated state. While I don't enjoy it, and expect to run into some issues with our SD (based on a personnel change last year that turned my district from "easy to work with" to "not very knowledgeable and making lots of extralegal requests), I refuse to give money to HSLDA.

 

If I am in compliance with the law, I feel like I can handle most things through letters, by citing the law, and by putting the onus on them to put in writing that an appropriate education is not occurring. It seems to me that in my area, they make a lot of extra requests, but if I don't use their district-generated evaluator form, what are they really going to do to me? They can gripe, they can ask, but I'm going to ignore until they send me something that says I'm not on compliance...because they won't, IMO.

 

My assumption is that I can handle most things on my own. It may be a nuisance, but it is doable. Even in the event that every few years I run into a more significant issue with my district, I'd rather pay an attorney a few hundred dollars to draft a "buzz off" letter with legal citations in it, etc. I suspect in most cases, I'd still come out ahead financially, and I'm not tied to non HSing politics that the HSLDA chooses to support and lobby for. On a local group, we have a HSing mom who is an attorney, and I'm quite sure for a few hundred bucks I could probably have her draft a letter and/or make a few phone calls. I expect I would not have to do that all that often over the course of our time HSing, so I think I'd still come out ahead vs. the 100 bucks per year or whatever it is now for an HSLDA membership as a "just in case" thing.

[justasque]

...The other really big one is the Cressy case. HSLDA has a youtube trailer on the case

I am sure you can google it too since it was all over the news a couple of years ago. I saw the Cressys speak at our hs convention a couple of years ago. It really reinforced for dh and I the need to stay memembers of HSLDA.

 

For me, based on the info in the video, the most important take-home message from the Cressy case is 1) know the law in your state, and 2) comply with it. To be frank, the Cressy's left themselves very vulnerable by not doing this. Their kids were legally truant. That discovery, unsurprisingly, triggered a CPS investigation. While it was taken to overkill on the part of the authorities, the Cressy's apparantly did not take the most basic steps needed to protect themselves - following the law in their state.

 

Also, do not rely on your district to know the law, as practically speaking they may not. You should be driving the train, not them. Comply, whether they ask you to or not.

 

If you have religious/political/philosophical issues with the law, you might make the choice to not comply. Some good, thoughtful people take this route. BUT, make this choice with eyes wide open and a full understanding of, and preparation for, the full range of possible consequences. And if HSLDA membership is part of your plan, discuss in advance your philosophy, whether and how they would defend it, what they need you to do to prepare a good defense (curriculum, documentation, etc.), and what they think your chances for success would be (and how you would define success). And get all that in writing.

[AdventureMoms]

For me, based on the info in the video, the most important take-home message from the Cressy case is 1) know the law in your state, and 2) comply with it. To be frank, the Cressy's left themselves very vulnerable by not doing this. Their kids were legally truant. That discovery, unsurprisingly, triggered a CPS investigation. While it was taken to overkill on the part of the authorities, the Cressy's apparantly did not take the most basic steps needed to protect themselves - following the law in their state.

 

Also, do not rely on your district to know the law, as practically speaking they may not. You should be driving the train, not them. Comply, whether they ask you to or not.

 

If you have religious/political/philosophical issues with the law, you might make the choice to not comply. Some good, thoughtful people take this route. BUT, make this choice with eyes wide open and a full understanding of, and preparation for, the full range of possible consequences. And if HSLDA membership is part of your plan, discuss in advance your philosophy, whether and how they would defend it, what they need you to do to prepare a good defense (curriculum, documentation, etc.), and what they think your chances for success would be (and how you would define success). And get all that in writing.

 

:iagree: I watched the longer video on HSLDA's website, and it didn't so much reinforce the need for legal counsel for me as it reinforced the need to register my kids. They never even touch on WHY they were not registered. It sounds as if they've been homeschooling for awhile and have never registered. They have 4 kids in a range of ages. Surely they knew that you have to register in NY state. If they chose not to register, surely they knew that choice has consequences.

 

It sounds like the local officials went overboard, sure. Child endangerment charges is a big steep for a truancy issue. But the best way to avoid that is to simply comply with the law rather than lawyering up.

[Haiku]

If you think its not worth the money, why do you hold that opinion?

 

They are anti-gay. That's enough for me.

 

Tara

[justasque]

...They never even touch on WHY they were not registered. ...

 

From here:

 

Richard and Margie Cressy began homeschooling in Gloversville, New York, in 2000...Two years later, the family moved to a small dairy farm in Glen, west of Albany.

 

Under New York State homeschooling regulations, homeschooling families are required to submit an annual notice of intent to homeschool (sometimes mistakenly referred to as “registering”), an annual Individualized Home Instruction Plan (IHIP) for each child, quarterly reports, and annual evaluations. But the Cressys had not done so since they had moved to the Fonda-Fultonville district.

 

“When we had lived in Gloversville, we had sent in a notice of intent, but never heard anything more from the school there,” explains Margie. “So we never even did quarterly reports there—they never told us we needed to do anything.... Then we moved down to Glen and we never submitted any paperwork—which we should have, but we did not. We figured we were in the system.”

...

But in 2009, the day before Thanksgiving, a social worker from Montgomery County Child Protective Services (CPS) visited the Cressys. She said that there had been a report that the Cressy children were not being schooled, since they had been seen playing outside during school hours. And the Fonda-Fultonville Central School District had no record that the family was homeschooling.

 

So aside from their initial notice of intent, they did no paperwork for 9 years.

(Note that this was apparently NOT a case where they did so out of religious or philosophical conviction.)

[dbmamaz]

Yeah, i remember reading that case, and feeling NO sympathy at all for the family. If you willfully choose to disregard the law .. . then you are acting criminally.

[ChristyB in TN]

They are anti-gay. That's enough for me.

 

Tara

 

This.

[WishboneDawn]

Nobody fits into a neat little box, including HSLDA. I am sure that they (as with any law firm) have handled cases in ways that (in hindsight) I might not always completely agree with.

 

However, stereotypes come from somewhere. If you tally the list of issues cited (when they are in fact cited, as they often are not) on this thread (or any HSLDA thread), you will find that they are largely liberal in nature.

 

Generally if you're conservative, you support HSLDA and the issues they take a stand on, and if you're liberal, you loathe them with every cell in your body. Generally.

 

Conservatives are not a uniform bunch who subscribe to some sort of group-think. They have certain tendencies but there are many conservatives who you might sit down with for a discussion and end up disagreeing with more then any given liberal. There may be a certain culture of a specific brand of conservatism within the HSLDA or your circle of conservative friends but it is NOT representative of conservatives as a whole.

 

Many conservatives have no issue with gay marriage. Many conservatives do have an issue with lobbyists and restrictive legislation (which to many it seems the HSLDA has had a part in). Many conservatives value personal responsibility and ability highly and would have an issue with tactics that seems designed to have people call the HSLDA rather then simply read state law themselves.

 

Myself, I don't think the HSLDA is conservative at all. They're quite radical and reactionary, things I don't associate with traditional conservatism. I think they're authoritarian and as someone who's increasingly going back to her conservative roots, I don't much like that.

[Mrs Mungo]

“When we had lived in Gloversville, we had sent in a notice of intent, but never heard anything more from the school there,” explains Margie. “So we never even did quarterly reports there—they never told us we needed to do anything.... Then we moved down to Glen and we never submitted any paperwork—which we should have, but we did not. We figured we were in the system.”

 

So, you take your driver's test, figure that you are in the system, and never get another driver's license? Sorry, I agree with Pauline, that does not wash. They were totally in the wrong.

[TranquilMind]

I get the feeling this could be a controversial subject but that's not the purpose of this post.

 

As I've said before I'm brand new to homeschooling. The HSLDA was one of the first places I found when I was looking for what is required of us by law. Since then I've been encouraged to join by some while others whisper that its a crock.

 

If you are a member of the HSLDA why did you join? If you think its not worth the money, why do you hold that opinion?

 

I appreciate any well thought out opinions you can give!

I'm not a member because we feel we can handle our own legal issues, given our training.

 

But you'd better be glad this organization exists. It has assisted lots of home schoolers in the pioneer days. We are all comfortable now that home schoolers are acknowledged, but there was a day that this was illegal or simply not done, and HSLDA was quite helpful in those days to those people who made it easier for us today.

[TranquilMind]

From here:

 

Richard and Margie Cressy began homeschooling in Gloversville, New York, in 2000...Two years later, the family moved to a small dairy farm in Glen, west of Albany.

 

Under New York State homeschooling regulations, homeschooling families are required to submit an annual notice of intent to homeschool (sometimes mistakenly referred to as “registeringâ€), an annual Individualized Home Instruction Plan (IHIP) for each child, quarterly reports, and annual evaluations. But the Cressys had not done so since they had moved to the Fonda-Fultonville district.

 

“When we had lived in Gloversville, we had sent in a notice of intent, but never heard anything more from the school there,†explains Margie. “So we never even did quarterly reports there—they never told us we needed to do anything.... Then we moved down to Glen and we never submitted any paperwork—which we should have, but we did not. We figured we were in the system.â€

...

But in 2009, the day before Thanksgiving, a social worker from Montgomery County Child Protective Services (CPS) visited the Cressys. She said that there had been a report that the Cressy children were not being schooled, since they had been seen playing outside during school hours. And the Fonda-Fultonville Central School District had no record that the family was homeschooling.

 

So aside from their initial notice of intent, they did no paperwork for 9 years.

(Note that this was apparently NOT a case where they did so out of religious or philosophical conviction.)

 

But...they were not visited for lack of paperwork in nine years. The family was visited because their children were outside during school hours. That was the event that caused the problem.

[TranquilMind]

I think it is better for people to be advocates for themselves, first.

 

Sure. If they know what the heck they are doing. Otherwise, no.

[TranquilMind]

99.8% of HSers have no real problems that would require legal assistance.

 

 

 

This is true today, thanks to those people that fought the early battles to educate their children.

[PrairieSong]

“When we had lived in Gloversville, we had sent in a notice of intent, but never heard anything more from the school there,†explains Margie. “So we never even did quarterly reports there—they never told us we needed to do anything.... Then we moved down to Glen and we never submitted any paperwork—which we should have, but we did not. We figured we were in the system.â€

 

So, you take your driver's test, figure that you are in the system, and never get another driver's license? Sorry, I agree with Pauline, that does not wash. They were totally in the wrong.

 

Yes, exactly. I wondered the same thing. Why is HSLDA seen as the superhero here, when the whole case could have so easily been avoided by the family simply complying with the law?

[PrairieSong]

But...they were not visited for lack of paperwork in nine years. The family was visited because their children were outside during school hours. That was the event that caused the problem.

 

Yes, but the way I read it, when the family was reported to authorities, they checked and found that the family was not a registered homeschooling family, and therefore, truant according to the law. They could have avoided that by sending in the forms required by law in their state.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm a conservative (although I'm sure not conservative enough for some) and agree w/ a lot of HSLDA's views however I don't like their fearmongering and feel they are in things way too much that they have no business dealing with. I really get annoyed at all the action alerts I get passed on to me with them drumming up paranoia and such.

 

Yup. If those alerts where from some environmental group with dire warnings about the climate you can bet the action would be labeled liberal bullying.

 

Conservative/liberal labels mean less and less to me. Many people who label themselves as such these days don't fit any traditional definition of either term. Very often the label seems to be applied just to point out who's opinion a person doesn't have to listen too - and that's an attitude traditionalists in both camps would be disgusted with.

[TranquilMind]

They have lobbied for *increased* regulations in some states.

 

http://hsislegal.com/2009/09/hslda-runs-roughshod-in-nh/

 

 

 

 

Sorry, but this is very misleading. HSLDA's language was specificly geared toward state law and corrects poor drafting in this blog you cite.

 

"All parents shall instruct their children" is just sloppy, nonlegal drafting. Instruct them in what?

 

This HSLDA language is much clearer and aligns with state requirements that the parent must meet anyway in order to issue a diploma. Who doesn't do this or send kids to co-op to learn this stuff? : "Parents who provide home education under this chapter Instruction shall provide be deemed home education if it consists of instruction in science, mathematics, language, government, history, health, reading, writing, spelling, the history of the constitutions of New Hampshire and the United States, and an exposure to and appreciation of art and music. Home education shall be provided by the parent for his own child, or an adult designated by the parent."

[Kathryn]

Yeah, i remember reading that case, and feeling NO sympathy at all for the family. If you willfully choose to disregard the law .. . then you are acting criminally.

 

:iagree:

 

But...they were not visited for lack of paperwork in nine years. The family was visited because their children were outside during school hours. That was the event that caused the problem.

 

That doesn't matter. If they had followed the law, they could have shown their paperwork and that would be the end of it. Their illegal actions were discovered as a result of the visit. THAT was the problem, not that their children were playing during school hours.

[dirty ethel rackham]

But...they were not visited for lack of paperwork in nine years. The family was visited because their children were outside during school hours. That was the event that caused the problem.

That is the event that got them noticed. But they didn't have a legal leg to stand on due to the fact that they did not comply with the law. An overwhelming majority of situations can be resolved by knowing and complying with the law and informing those asking for more what the law entails. Not too familiar with the details of NY law (other than the fact that it is one of the worst laws in the country and was more or less written by HSLDA.) Is there a daytime curfew where the children can't be outside during the day?

[radiobrain]

This is true today, thanks to those people that fought the early battles to educate their children.

 

There are lots of different people who did that.

 

Some who were very religious types, some who were unschooler/hippie types, some who were in the middle. Are you implying that HSLDA had something to do with this directly? I doubt that, but honestly, I haven't looked it up.

 

Heck, my dad started a thing called "The Parent's School" in Chicago in the mid 1960's. A group of 10 or so like minded parents who didn't want to send their kids to either a private, public or parochial inner city school. My brothers did this until 4th & 5th grade.

 

Also, people should still try to find out about their state options first, before going to any nationwide "Agency."

[TranquilMind]

Corraleno: I believe they purposely try to make homeschooling laws seem much more difficult and complex than they are, to intimidate people into paying dues.

 

Laughing. Welcome to attorney-land. They are just trying to make a living, doing (much of) what you could do yourself, except for specialized areas. Take divorce, for example. Any two reasonable people could draft a divorce petition, agree on everything and get-r-done. But no....because people are unreasonable, attorneys come in to do what they could do. Simple real estate transactions are another example. Bankruptcy filings. Simple criminal matters. Simple Wills and trusts.

 

Too many people think they're buying some kind of "legal insurance," which is really NOT what they're about. There's really nothing they offer that you can't get from local organizations, and in the extremely rare instance where you might need a letter from a lawyer to shut up some overzealous school district employee, you can probably get a letter from a local lawyer for much less than you'd pay for years of HSLDA "services."

 

 

This is likely true, but the local attorney may never have even heard of home schooling, so you do want someone with at least a passing knowledge of the area of law.

 

Oh, and they will NOT help in divorce cases — nor will they help if you're not the "right" kind of family, even if you've paid dues for years.

 

 

They don't do divorce, which is a separate practice area, but I'm not sure what you mean by the "right kind" of family. I'm sure they will represent anyone with a home schooling issue who has paid for their services, if I am not mistaken, as will most law firms.

Jackie

[TranquilMind]

:iagree:

 

That doesn't matter. If they had followed the law, they could have shown their paperwork and that would be the end of it. Their illegal actions were discovered as a result of the visit. THAT was the problem, not that their children were playing during school hours.

 

Maybe that would have been the end of it. But they were only called because the kids were outside. The district didn't give a rat's patootie that they had not filed after the initial filing.

 

Don't ever fail to file something yourself because you just live your life and forget about it. I'm sure you never have. :001_huh:

[TranquilMind]

I watched the longer video on HSLDA's website, and it didn't so much reinforce the need for legal counsel for me as it reinforced the need to register my kids. They never even touch on WHY they were not registered. .

 

Why do kids need to be "registered"? Why can't parents just be left alone unless there is an issue? Some states allow this.

 

They might not have been registered for a number of reasons. Perhaps they thought the initial filing was good for the duration (their fault, but not criminal behavior!). Perhaps they had long term illness in the family and jumping through state hoops fell way down the priority list. We just don't know. But the fact is that being registered or unregistered made not one iota of difference in whether they received and education or not.

[TranquilMind]

I really hate the way they claim credit for homeschooling freedoms. I think it is a slap in the face of local groups who have been on the front lines, fighting for freedoms. They do all the work, then HSLDA swoops in and claims the credit. I have seen it over an over again in IL. We have good laws here. I wish they would stay away. We always have MORE work to do after they have come to town.

 

It can rightly take some early credit. But now I'm sure it is just trying to self-perpetuate, justifying its existence, as does every organization, governmental and otherwise.

[Scrub Jay]

Maybe that would have been the end of it. But they were only called because the kids were outside. The district didn't give a rat's patootie that they had not filed after the initial filing.

 

 

I'm not sure I understand the issue here. If the kids were public school kids and playing outside instead of being in school then I can see why someone would call. If you are part of the public school system then you are expected to abide by the rules of that system.

[Mrs Mungo]

But...they were not visited for lack of paperwork in nine years. The family was visited because their children were outside during school hours. That was the event that caused the problem.

 

And I could not get pulled over by the cops for nine years, even if I didn't have a valid driver's license. I still can't claim persecution when they arrest me when I finally *do* get pulled over.

 

Sure. If they know what the heck they are doing. Otherwise, no.

 

There are a LOT of resources out there these days, including local homeschool groups. My local group frequently advises people on what is and is not required.

 

Maybe that would have been the end of it. But they were only called because the kids were outside. The district didn't give a rat's patootie that they had not filed after the initial filing.

 

Don't ever fail to file something yourself because you just live your life and forget about it. I'm sure you never have. :001_huh:

 

For nine years? What would happen if you didn't file taxes for nine years? Maybe you'd get away with it for a little while, but sooner or later, it will bite you in the butt. That isn't persecution.

 

They are just trying to make a living, doing (much of) what you could do yourself, except for specialized areas.

 

They are making a living by instilling fear into people. Completely unjustified fear in many cases.

 

I'm sure they will represent anyone with a home schooling issue who has paid for their services, if I am not mistaken,

 

 

You are mistaken. This has been widely discussed.

[WishboneDawn]

I'm not a member because we feel we can handle our own legal issues, given our training.

 

But you'd better be glad this organization exists. It has assisted lots of home schoolers in the pioneer days. We are all comfortable now that home schoolers are acknowledged, but there was a day that this was illegal or simply not done, and HSLDA was quite helpful in those days to those people who made it easier for us today.

 

No.

 

In the pioneer days it was generally homeschoolers helping themselves. People like you and me lobbying their governments and forming state and provincial organizations. The vast majority of the work done to legalize homeschooling was done by homeschoolers themselves before the rise of the HSLDA.

 

We should know this.

[Mrs Mungo]

No.

 

In the pioneer days it was generally homeschoolers helping themselves. People like you and me lobbying their governments and forming state and provincial organizations. The vast majority of the work done to legalize homeschooling was done by homeschoolers themselves before the rise of the HSLDA.

 

We should know this.

 

:iagree: Go back in the thread and read the White Paper article by Raymond Moore.

[TranquilMind]

They are anti-gay. That's enough for me.

 

Tara

 

Oh, you gotta be kidding me. I don't care if

HSLDA are Hitler's relatives and I'm a Jew if they can get me out of an imminent legal mess. If they cannot, I need someone else and I'm not going to spend a lot of time canvassing all of his opinions. He can be so liberal and open-minded his brains are falling out if he can solve my problem today. Same goes with my carpet guy, my electrician, my doctor...you name it.

 

There are none so intolerant as those who stridently advocate "tolerance" (meaning, approving advocacy of their own position).

[TranquilMind]

What do politics have to do with where you buy a chicken sandwich? It's a chicken sandwich, for goodness sake!

 

 

 

No freaking kidding!

[TranquilMind]

They were heavily marketed to me when we first started homeschooling. I never saw the need, I don't loathe them (and I'm not necessarily liberal). I just don't use them and I don't like their strategy. They really don't enter into my day-to-day thoughts at all. I just think they thinly veil themselves to new homeschoolers and people should know what they're paying for if they choose to use them.

 

Right. Total non-issue to me too. But I can understand why this organization might make some people feel better about the decision to homeschool. That's the beauty of (right now) living in America. Make your own choice. Do what makes financial sense to you.

[Juniper]

Oh, you gotta be kidding me. I don't care if

HSLDA are Hitler's relatives and I'm a Jew if they can get me out of an imminent legal mess. If they cannot, I need someone else and I'm not going to spend a lot of time canvassing all of his opinions. He can be so liberal and open-minded his brains are falling out if he can solve my problem today. Same goes with my carpet guy, my electrician, my doctor...you name it.

 

There are none so intolerant as those who stridently advocate "tolerance" (meaning, approving advocacy of their own position).

This is actually one of the reasons I do not use them. I am not the "right" kind of Christian and I have no guarantee that they would help me, even if I was member. :glare:

[Scrub Jay]

There are none so intolerant as those who stridently advocate "tolerance" (meaning, approving advocacy of their own position).

 

Not giving your business to someone because of their stand on civil issues is a right. Not sure why it appears to anger you so much.

 

HSLDA isn't the only choice if you have legals issues regarding homeschooling.

 

Also, not sure why Hitler's relatives would be burdened with what he did?? Unless they were actively apart of it?

[I talk to the trees]

For me, based on the info in the video, the most important take-home message from the Cressy case is 1) know the law in your state, and 2) comply with it. To be frank, the Cressy's left themselves very vulnerable by not doing this. Their kids were legally truant. That discovery, unsurprisingly, triggered a CPS investigation. While it was taken to overkill on the part of the authorities, the Cressy's apparantly did not take the most basic steps needed to protect themselves - following the law in their state.

 

Also, do not rely on your district to know the law, as practically speaking they may not. You should be driving the train, not them. Comply, whether they ask you to or not.

 

If you have religious/political/philosophical issues with the law, you might make the choice to not comply. Some good, thoughtful people take this route. BUT, make this choice with eyes wide open and a full understanding of, and preparation for, the full range of possible consequences. And if HSLDA membership is part of your plan, discuss in advance your philosophy, whether and how they would defend it, what they need you to do to prepare a good defense (curriculum, documentation, etc.), and what they think your chances for success would be (and how you would define success). And get all that in writing.

:iagree:

 

Oh. My.Goodness. I get so irritated when I think of the trouble the Cressy's have caused for law-abiding homeschoolers. in NY! There must have been some sort of decree from the state DOE, because in my district, and those surrounding it, there were so many cases of "crackdowns" and superintendents trying to overstep their authority that year. We had our IHIP rejected, and our curriculum choices questioned. UGH! Sadly, we did end up having to contact hslda, and (to their credit) the situation was handled quickly and we haven't had trouble since. But that was also the year that we decided to drop the hslda membership, because I just couldn't support their political agenda. We're thinking about HLA, but haven't joined up yet. If we move before the end of the year to a more homeschool-friendly state, we probably won't bother!

[Mrs Mungo]

Oh, you gotta be kidding me. I don't care if

HSLDA are Hitler's relatives and I'm a Jew if they can get me out of an imminent legal mess. If they cannot, I need someone else and I'm not going to spend a lot of time canvassing all of his opinions. He can be so liberal and open-minded his brains are falling out if he can solve my problem today. Same goes with my carpet guy, my electrician, my doctor...you name it.

 

There are none so intolerant as those who stridently advocate "tolerance" (meaning, approving advocacy of their own position).

 

HOW is this the same when they are asking for our money *and lobbying on "our" behalf? Come ON!!!! :glare: I don't care about the politics of Chick-fil-A or my electrician. I DO care when it comes to *lobbying groups* purporting to advocate for ME!!!!