Detailed review of Created to Be His Help Meet

[justamouse]

I don't understand your question. The true servant's heart should belong to the man, especially, though it is even better when it is both, of course. The Christian man is required to serve his family, and love his wife the way Christ loved the Church. Pretty high standard to reach for there, and certainly should be a consideration in choosing a spouse.

 

From what I remember of these conversations, you are very into the submission of a wife in a marriage? Do you agree with the teaching of this book?

[Nestof3]

I'm sure she didn't, but was there any hint of trouble that she ignored, looking back. Most people say there were absolute red flags of character issues that they overlooked because they were so in love.

Hindsight, you know.

 

Mental illness and addiction often doesn't show up until later in life. No, they had a very pure dating relationship. It's really hard to know your husband is going to end up blowing money on a sports car, thousands of dollars of stuff and addicted to internet p*rn when you don't live together before marriage. You see the part of a person they wish to reveal.

 

Recently, he blamed her for his internet addiction. He told her he couldn't possibly be attracted to her because she was too fat (she's a little rounder, but not that much different). So, she started dieting. This coming from a man who only eats two vegetables (according to him) -- corn and green beans. She actually believes she is responsible at some level for his problem.

 

Now, it's the woman's responsibility to really know if the guy's a loser and if he ends up being one, she should just suffer along being submissive? BTW -- the guy is my biological uncle -- not the wife.

Edited July 17, 2012 by nestof3

[Nestof3]

I don't understand your question. The true servant's heart should belong to the man, especially, though it is even better when it is both, of course. The Christian man is required to serve his family, and love his wife the way Christ loved the Church. Pretty high standard to reach for there, and certainly should be a consideration in choosing a spouse.

 

People put their best foot forward during dating. There is no way of knowing if the husband is going to want to serve his wife once she starts to get wrinkles, gains a little weight around the middle, etc. Helping clean up vomit is much different than buying flowers. A dating couple does not really get to see real life experiences.

 

People change as they age too. A man who had the energy to help with the first baby may not have the energy to handle things when he is older. There is a 13 year difference between my husband and me. I see this often, and it leaves me very often bearing much more responsibility than I would have to if my husband were younger.

 

I hear the servanthood message preached -- heard it in our house church. I see, however, men more interested in the passages concerning leadership, and I see women worn out from caring for so many people.

 

This may not be your experience, but it seems people try so hard to make sure husband and wife are in their proper places when it would be so simple if both husband and wife strove to love, respect and serve. My brother and his wife do this beautifully. They don't read books about it, they don't listen to sermons about it; in fact, they would both laugh their heads off at the headship/submission thing. But, they are such a giving couple to one another. They don't get hung up on roles, hierarchy, etc.

 

I hear the -- if women would respect husbands more (often this translates as given them their way more), husbands would love wives more. Well, no duh. This is how it works often with children. I believe in mutual respect and love. It's really that simple.

 

The Bible even goes so far as to say that men will just change their mind if women behave a certain way and not speak a word. Yes, some men will. But, they are the men who would anyway. Those who don't truly care about their wives won't. So, really, what's the point of the instruction?

 

I have seen this authority thing get out of control, and I know the readings these people were into. For example, I needed a cardiac ablation for elevated SVTs (300 beats per second). One of the elder's wives came over to care for the boys during the procedure so my husband could take me. She asked me how I felt about it. Then she asked how my husband felt. I told her he felt fine (he wouldn't tell me if he didn't; I did find out right before that he was worried sick because he got very firm with the doctor telling him to please be careful because he needed his wife and the boys needed their mom). She told me to trust my husband because he had a direct line with God.

 

She then proceeded to tell me that she shares her health concerns with her husband and he decides if she should seek medical care. He also schedules her day, telling her how much time is allotted for schooling, meals, etc.

[bookfiend]

IF this book has any value, it is perhaps the title. After you read that, throw the rest away.

[Joanne]

I have read the book.

 

I have read the review.

 

I have read this thread.

 

I have researched, professionally, the Pearls' advice from a marital and theological standpoint.

 

This book of theirs, is yet another example of:

 

1. Bad theology. Very bad theology.

2. Bad marriage advice. Very bad marriage advice.

3. Cultish, seductive, predatory.

4. Full of power, control, and manipulation.

 

It's sick, dangerous stuff. And there is NOTHING of value in that book (or their others) that can't be found in sources that are at least benign if not helpful.

[Nestof3]

I'm sure she didn't, but was there any hint of trouble that she ignored, looking back. Most people say there were absolute red flags of character issues that they overlooked because they were so in love.

Hindsight, you know.

 

Here again, there is the hint that if the guy's a jerk or the marriage is failing, it's the woman's fault for not knowing ahead of time.

 

Men and women alike are very good at wooing. They are great at putting all the effort up front. I am even warning my eldest about this. He buys his girlfriend flowers and delivers them to her at work when she's tired. He goes all out. I told him rather sternly that she is believing this to be his character, and that he will need to keep doing this sort of thing if they get married. He doesn't believe me, but he will likely not feel like doing it when he's been married 15 years.

 

I have seen him procrastinate on issues. I have seen him forget numerous things I have asked him to take care of. I told him that one day, serving her may feel very like serving us -- his parents. The newness wears off. It just does most of the time. I told him that marriages work well when a person is constant to the core -- not just constant to one person -- a person he's trying to impress. A person he's all giddy about. It's easy then.

 

Oh, and back to the online stuff. You certainly wouldn't know when dating a man if he has online issues. And, he may not have them then. A friend of mine had a husband decide he wasn't ready to be married after she had just delivered her first child. He was up in Maine getting settled in his new job -- having fun with a coworker. My friend packed up the house, moved up there with the newborn to discover he was cheating on her. His reasons? She didn't like to have fun anymore (didn't want to go out to eat and drink with friends with a newborn) and she didn't wear sexy underwear anymore. ?????

Edited July 17, 2012 by nestof3

[6packofun]

I agree and I don't always agree with every single review. I think he could have hit One Thousand Gifts MUCH harder than he did, honestly. lol But when he makes a negative statement in his reviews, a vast majority of the time he quotes the book directly, letting the author's own words prove his point. THAT is good reviewing.

[justamouse]

I don't understand your question. The true servant's heart should belong to the man, especially, though it is even better when it is both, of course. The Christian man is required to serve his family, and love his wife the way Christ loved the Church. Pretty high standard to reach for there, and certainly should be a consideration in choosing a spouse.

 

Nest said

 

Yes, this is an accurate portrayl of the videos. My dh and i watched them together and decided to toss them together. They asked men and women from the audience what their spouses could do to make them feel loved. Every response from a woman was criticized by Mr. Pearl.

 

We have never had a Pearlish marriage, but we spent years under similar teaching, and I have read many if the books trying to apply the principles. I rarely meet men who read the books, so women tend to be the ones trying to do the applying. Men talk of being stronger leaders so often but rarely stronger servants.

 

then you said

 

Yeah. You have to marry a strong servant in the first place and you have to observe the character of the spouse you are choosing very closely. Whatever annoys you while dating will drive you insane later on. Perhaps they leave that part out. I don't know.

 

But many marriages are in trouble because people let attraction blind them to what actually makes a good spouse. Granted, I didn't get married until 2 weeks from 30 years old, so I guess I have an advantage in that area that others who married young did not have.

 

So what you're saying is that a submissive woman has to pick a man with a 'servant's heart', correct? See the part where it starts to fall apart is that you don't need to have a submissive marriage to have a godly one, or a good one. For you, this is the only *right* way to have a Godly marriage.

 

That's like saying Atheists have no morals, which really isn't true, either.

 

And the way you set is up is that it's up to the woman to choose well and it's her fault if she doesn't, not accounting that a marriage is TWO people, and both are never prime specimens of perfection.

 

People change. People chose to grow out of a marriage, Problems happen. Great people make bad choices. See, there's this world we live in and it's so very imperfect.

 

You set up a false dichotomy and then judge the people who have fallen on either side.

[TranquilMind]

From what I remember of these conversations, you are very into the submission of a wife in a marriage? Do you agree with the teaching of this book?

Um, no, I'm not. I am into a balanced reading of any book to discern what it is actually saying.

 

I don't know where you got this idea.

[I.Dup.]

I think he could have hit One Thousand Gifts MUCH harder than he did, honestly. lol

 

Seriously? I totally lost any "respect" I could have had for him after that review. He came across like a raging fundie IMO.

[TranquilMind]

nestof3: Mental illness and addiction often doesn't show up until later in life. No, they had a very pure dating relationship. It's really hard to know your husband is going to end up blowing money on a sports car, thousands of dollars of stuff and addicted to internet p*rn when you don't live together before marriage.

 

Do you really think attitudes toward money do not show up while dating? I don't. I think that is blatantly obvious from very early on.

 

 

 

Recently, he blamed her for his internet addiction. He told her he couldn't possibly be attracted to her because she was too fat (she's a little rounder, but not that much different). So, she started dieting. This coming from a man who only eats two vegetables (according to him) -- corn and green beans. She actually believes she is responsible at some level for his problem.

 

Well, he is an idiot to blame her for things he is voluntarily doing. She should never think she is responsible. No one is holding a gun to his head.

 

Now, it's the woman's responsibility to really know if the guy's a loser and if he ends up being one, she should just suffer along being submissive?

 

I think women should be more attentive to character traits while dating, just from all I've seen. And I dated a long, long time. That's all. Not saying that if he is a loser that she should be submissive to the point of harming her family, herself, or anything like that. I just think you should try all reasonable avenues to repair a marriage, but it does take two. One can't do it alone.

[Word Nerd]

And the way you set is up is that it's up to the woman to choose well and it's her fault if she doesn't, not accounting that a marriage is TWO people, and both are never prime specimens of perfection.

 

This reminds me of a discussion I saw on another forum in which a poster shared some marriage struggles. Several people recommended CTBHHM, and one even told her something to the effect of "it only takes one person to save a marriage." The general idea—which the poster had largely gleaned from this book—is that if a woman is serving and submitting to her husband enough or in the correct manner, he won't leave her, and her submissiveness will win him back. Period. No exceptions. If he does leave or the marriage falls apart anyway, it must be her fault; she wasn't jumping through all the necessary hoops in the right order, or enough times, etc.

[I.Dup.]

If he does leave or the marriage falls apart anyway, it must be her fault; she wasn't jumping through all the necessary hoops in the right order, or enough times, etc.

 

and I believe this is where the most damage from this book comes in. It's not allowing any room for the spouse to take responsibility for their actions, because the wife is so busy running after the husband fixing all of his messes (remember the garbage incident from the book, anyone?) and treating him like a deity who can do no wrong.

[justamouse]

I have read this book as well. However, I think this reviewer is exceedingly biased in his presentation. He quotes all the very worst things he found that Debbie wrote, yet merely outlines some areas in which she presented information of which he approved.

 

I don't like that kind of reviewing. I prefer a more balanced approach.

 

I agree with someone upthread who said that Debbie Pearl is very "unpolished". She definitely is, but I read her as blunt and plainspoken, instead of harsh and insulting (though granted, the "hillbilly" reference is pretty offensive no matter who you are, but it isn't related to the substance of her information). I'm sure personality plays a role in this, as I'm able to separate the factual information from the tone in which it is being presented. She has some good things to say that are honest and truthful evaluations, and some things with which I would not agree no matter how she presented it...like many authors.

 

This reviewer had an ax to grind and presented it in a very skewed way. I'm unfamiliar with this person, so I will try to read the next one and see if I still read it the same way.

 

By the way, I'm a strong personality and have several degrees, so it isn't as if I am a weak, uneducated woman who cannot analyze information and who defers to her husband all of the time. He's just as likely, and actually probably more likely to defer to me, particularly in areas of my strengths. Debbie's perspective has value, in the final analysis.

 

So, basically your degrees make you an exemplary reader, and you have found worth in this book. People who have disagreed have 'an ax to grind'.

 

Interesting.

 

For the life of me I cannot fathom how anyone can have anything remotely positive to say about these people, or these books. They are so far unbalanced that the whole of society should rise up and put them forever out of business.

 

There is no 'baby' in this bathwater. Just throw the trash out.

[justamouse]

This reminds me of a discussion I saw on another forum in which a poster shared some marriage struggles. Several people recommended CTBHHM, and one even told her something to the effect of "it only takes one person to save a marriage." The general idea—which the poster had largely gleaned from this book—is that if a woman is serving and submitting to her husband enough or in the correct manner, he won't leave her, and her submissiveness will win him back. Period. No exceptions. If he does leave or the marriage falls apart anyway, it must be her fault; she wasn't jumping through all the necessary hoops in the right order, or enough times, etc.

 

 

Yeah, well, it's pretty easy to judge-especially when you drink Pearl Water. Those people have a cult, plain and simple. One that subjugates women and children and advocates child abuse.

[Slartibartfast]

I had to go back to reread what you had quoted, since it didn't appear.

 

You quoted the reviewer, not the book. I'd like to see what the book actually says on that, but have no idea where it is, among the several thousand stuffed into this house.

 

I don't know what would happen in that situation. Maybe the guy would reoffend forever. I do remember Pearl talking about that any offender who is serious about changing will put himself under authority and under very tight restrictions with several levels, so I'd like to see what she had actually said about that. I'm sure no one would suggest that a woman simply let an offender move right back in. In fact, I'm sure he insists upon separation, but simply not divorce, as I recall.

 

“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?” Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.”

 

~~Michael Pearl

Edited July 17, 2012 by Sis

[Mimm]

So, basically your degrees make you an exemplary reader, and you have found worth in this book. People who have disagreed have 'an ax to grind'.

 

Interesting.

 

For the life of me I cannot fathom how anyone can have anything remotely positive to say about these people, or these books. They are so far unbalanced that the whole of society should rise up and put them forever out of business.

 

There is no 'baby' in this bathwater. Just throw the trash out.

 

:iagree:

 

Whenever a discussion about this book comes up, I always see people say, "There are nuggets of wisdom in there." And I always want to say, "So?" Why in the world would you subject yourself to the other 99% of the book?

[TranquilMind]

nestof3: People put their best foot forward during dating. There is no way of knowing if the husband is going to want to serve his wife once she starts to get wrinkles, gains a little weight around the middle, etc. Helping clean up vomit is much different than buying flowers. A dating couple does not really get to see real life experiences.

 

 

I just disagree with this. A leopard does not change his spots (absent mental illness, accident, etc). A guy shows his character early on if you are paying attention. Mostly, we don't - and I include myself in this. There were many guys I dated whom I knew were really bad bets in my gut. Some I dated too long.

 

People change as they age too. A man who had the energy to help with the first baby may not have the energy to handle things when he is older. There is a 13 year difference between my husband and me. I see this often, and it leaves me very often bearing much more responsibility than I would have to if my husband were younger.

 

 

This could well be true.

 

I'm married to a younger man who also takes excellent care of himself. He has unbelievable energy and can run circles around men 20 years younger. I didn't know he would do this - but it was quite obvious when we were dating that he was extraordinarily disciplined. He decided smoking wasn't in his best interest, so he quit, cold turkey, before we really got to know each other. He decided certain foods were making him feel bad, so he abruptly quit. Things like that, that are consistent with who he is today.

 

I hear the servanthood message preached -- heard it in our house church. I see, however, men more interested in the passages concerning leadership, and I see women worn out from caring for so many people.

 

Then they are getting the balance wrong. Women naturally take care of others. Men need to not focus on pleasing the flesh - being taken care of - and do the harder thing, as "leaders".

 

This may not be your experience, but it seems people try so hard to make sure husband and wife are in their proper places when it would be so simple if both husband and wife strove to love, respect and serve. My brother and his wife do this beautifully. They don't read books about it, they don't listen to sermons about it; in fact, they would both laugh their heads off at the headship/submission thing. But, they are such a giving couple to one another. They don't get hung up on roles, hierarchy, etc.

 

 

They sound awesome.

 

I hear the -- if women would respect husbands more (often this translates as given them their way more), husbands would love wives more. Well, no duh. This is how it works often with children. I believe in mutual respect and love. It's really that simple.

 

 

I don't translate it that way at all. I do believe a woman should respect her husband and listen to him, consider his view, just like she would with her best friend or someone else. A lot of women do not do this. I don't even do this perfectly, but I see the difference in how my husband feels and how my kids see our relationship when I make an effort to listen respectfully, instead of run right over him, as someone with my personality can easily do.

 

The Bible even goes so far as to say that men will just change their mind if women behave a certain way and not speak a word. Yes, some men will. But, they are the men who would anyway. Those who don't truly care about their wives won't. So, really, what's the point of the instruction?

 

 

The point is to tell the MEN to straighten up. They are doing it wrong.

 

I have seen this authority thing get out of control, and I know the readings these people were into. For example, I needed a cardiac ablation for elevated SVTs (300 beats per second).

 

Yikes! That sounds awful.

 

 

One of the elder's wives came over to care for the boys during the procedure so my husband could take me. She asked me how I felt about it. Then she asked how my husband felt. I told her he felt fine (he wouldn't tell me if he didn't; I did find out right before that he was worried sick because he got very firm with the doctor telling him to please be careful because he needed his wife and the boys needed their mom). She told me to trust my husband because he had a direct line with God.

 

 

I don't understand this about how your husband felt. How did she think he felt? He was probably worried about his wife, as any man would be. I don't understand what you are saying about you needing to trust your husband. Trust him with what?

 

She then proceeded to tell me that she shares her health concerns with her husband and he decides if she should seek medical care. He also schedules her day, telling her how much time is allotted for schooling, meals, etc

 

 

Lol. What? Wow. :tongue_smilie: I've never met anyone like that in my life. That's just ridiculous. But maybe they have some domination thing going on...who knows. The people I know are more like your brother and his wife.

[Mimm]

“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?†Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.â€

 

~~Michael Pearl

 

:ack2::ack2::ack2::ack2:

 

God hates divorce... but child molesters are just mildly annoying to Him?

[I.Dup.]

“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?” Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.”

 

~~Michael Pearl

 

Jesus spoke pretty clearly about what to do with child molesters and it certainly wasn't to welcome them with open arms...........

[Nestof3]

“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?†Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.â€

 

~~Michael Pearl

 

Makes me want to vomit. Some people just keep digging themselves deeper and deeper in a hole.

[TranquilMind]

justamouse:

So what you're saying is that a submissive woman has to pick a man with a 'servant's heart', correct? See the part where it starts to fall apart is that you don't need to have a submissive marriage to have a godly one, or a good one. For you, this is the only *right* way to have a Godly marriage.

 

 

No, I didn't say that a submissive woman should pick a man with a servant's heart. ANY woman should pick a man with demonstrated character, part of which is the desire to serve others, not to dominate others.

 

 

 

And the way you set is up is that it's up to the woman to choose well and it's her fault if she doesn't, not accounting that a marriage is TWO people, and both are never prime specimens of perfection.

 

 

It IS up to the woman to choose well. It's also up to the man to choose well for himself. There is responsibility on both sides. Don't marry someone with a set of traits that are blatantly obvious and then complain about it. I'm not saying that no one is ever the consummate liar and deceiver, but I don't think every situation where the marriage didn't work out falls into this category. People ignored obvious red flags in many cases.

 

People change. People chose to grow out of a marriage, Problems happen. Great people make bad choices. See, there's this world we live in and it's so very imperfect.

 

 

Sure, it's imperfect. That's why you do everything possible to make the best possible choice for the future, given your values and personality.People don't put enough time into careful analysis of a lifelong marriage partner! That's more important than which house to buy or which insurance to get, but most people analyze those more carefully than whether this person is a good fit for me.

[TranquilMind]

[justamouse: So, basically your degrees make you an exemplary reader, and you have found worth in this book. People who have disagreed have 'an ax to grind'.

 

Now we are just getting ridiculous. I never said any such thing about either "my degrees" or people who disagree with that book. I thought that review wasn't very balanced. That's it.

 

 

For the life of me I cannot fathom how anyone can have anything remotely positive to say about these people, or these books. They are so far unbalanced that the whole of society should rise up and put them forever out of business.

 

 

Okie dokie, then.:tongue_smilie:

[Slartibartfast]

:ack2::ack2::ack2::ack2:

 

God hates divorce... but child molesters are just mildly annoying to Him?

 

Maybe he would prefer one just gun them down rather than divorce?

[TranquilMind]

“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?†Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.â€

 

~~Michael Pearl

 

Ok, then. No way is he coming back with the kids. What she chooses to do is her own business. This would be almost impossible, I think, but Christians are called to do impossible things. "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect".

[Slartibartfast]

Ok, then. No way is he coming back with the kids. What she chooses to do is her own business. This would be almost impossible, I think, but Christians are called to do impossible things. "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect".

 

What happens if it is only five years and the kids are still there?

[Nestof3]

I'm trying to say something without being rude, but I can see why you like the book. You both seem to be in favor of harsh this plus that will make this, and if not, the blame must lie with the woman. No, I don't think a woman can know all these things while dating. I have personally seen people change completely in the way they handle money. I have seen people change in very surprising ways over time.

 

It really doesn't matter in the end, because I am as secure in my beliefs on this as you are. I don't believe a woman should have to be submissive to anything that makes her feel less than she is.

 

Do you really think attitudes toward money do not show up while dating? I don't. I think that is blatantly obvious from very early on.

 

 

 

 

 

Well, he is an idiot to blame her for things he is voluntarily doing. She should never think she is responsible. No one is holding a gun to his head.

 

 

 

I think women should be more attentive to character traits while dating, just from all I've seen. And I dated a long, long time. That's all. Not saying that if he is a loser that she should be submissive to the point of harming her family, herself, or anything like that. I just think you should try all reasonable avenues to repair a marriage, but it does take two. One can't do it alone.

[TranquilMind]

What happens if it is only five years and the kids are still there?

Well, I don't think one would ever let him back in. In fact, it would probably be mandated by court order.

[Mimm]

Ok, then. No way is he coming back with the kids. What she chooses to do is her own business. This would be almost impossible, I think, but Christians are called to do impossible things. "Be ye perfect, as I am perfect".

 

I would never forgive my mother for staying with a man who had molested me, even if I was out of the house.

[Joker]

I just disagree with this. A leopard does not change his spots (absent mental illness, accident, etc). A guy shows his character early on if you are paying attention. Mostly, we don't - and I include myself in this. There were many guys I dated whom I knew were really bad bets in my gut. Some I dated too long.

 

 

 

 

I so disagree with this. My mom's first husband didn't hit her when they were dating (all through high school) or get into any fights at all. She said he was one of the most gentle people. It wasn't long after they married that he thought it was his right as her husband to hit her. She is not to blame, at all, that she didn't suspect he was capable of such violence. It's absolutely ridiculous (and harmful) to state that women should see it and just aren't paying attention.

[pdalley]

Jesus spoke pretty clearly about what to do with child molesters and it certainly wasn't to welcome them with open arms...........

:iagree:

 

And He said that unfaithfulness was just cause for divorce. And Jesus hated legalism as I recall and everything 'Pearl' I've ever read smacks of legalism.

 

Child molesters do. not. change. period. end of sentence. No woman should ever consider taking one back for any reason. I have never found any Biblical basis for saying a woman whose husband had molested their child or her child if it is a stepparent should remain married to the scumbag.

 

And the whole 'blame the woman' thing just makes my stomach turn. There are con men that put on a very pretty face and a convincing act and don't show their true colors until they feel the woman is 'stuck'. There are not always warning flags.

[justamouse]

Now we are just getting ridiculous. I never said any such thing about either "my degrees" or people who disagree with that book. I thought that review wasn't very balanced. That's it.

 

 

Well, then why mention them?

[Joanne]

Originally Posted by TranquilMind

I just disagree with this. A leopard does not change his spots (absent mental illness, accident, etc). A guy shows his character early on if you are paying attention. Mostly, we don't - and I include myself in this. There were many guys I dated whom I knew were really bad bets in my gut. Some I dated too long.

 

The abuse dynamic is far more insidious than leopards with spots. It is not simple, or easy, to identify abusers ~ especially the non physical kind.

[swimmermom3]

“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?†Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.â€

 

~~Michael Pearl

 

:blink::blink::blink::eek:

 

Wait for a child molester for 10-20 years, raise the kids yourself as a single, working mother and then welcome him back with open arms?Know no other love or compassion in 10-20 years while waiting for a monster? So God rates pedophiles as better than getting a divorce?

 

My simple brain cannot even begin to fathom this.

 

ETA: I should have kept reading. You all have said it already.

 

I keep driving by this thread like someone going past a bad accident. There is so much I do not understand about this "submit to your husband " thing. When my children were in preschool, there were four of us moms who met for lunch once a week. It was a very special time. One of the women had her third child and suffered from severe postpartum depression. Her doctor had suggested medication, but her husband who was master of their Christian household wanted her not to take them, but to continue to pray to God for relief. She wanted to be a dutiful wife and that scenario just about cost that husband his wife and the mother of his three children. She was really very ill and needed medical care more than prayer. It was devastating to watch and very hard on the family afterwards.

Edited July 17, 2012 by swimmermom3

[Lovedtodeath]

I'm sure she didn't, but was there any hint of trouble that she ignored, looking back. Most people say there were absolute red flags of character issues that they overlooked because they were so in love. Hindsight, you know.

There are also dynamics that ruin a marriage. Dynamics that are taught. That can also be untaught...

 

After being separated for a year. and finding out about these unhealthy relationship dynamics my husband and I are happier than ever and so in love that we inspire jealousy.

 

We are also very wary of attending church at all and if they have a submissive wife/silent woman idea then we will not attend there. We don't want our daughter to end up in a destructive marriage dynamic that is taught in this way.

[WishboneDawn]

I have read this book as well. However, I think this reviewer is exceedingly biased in his presentation. He quotes all the very worst things he found that Debbie wrote, yet merely outlines some areas in which she presented information of which he approved.

 

I don't like that kind of reviewing. I prefer a more balanced approach.

 

I agree with someone upthread who said that Debbie Pearl is very "unpolished". She definitely is, but I read her as blunt and plainspoken, instead of harsh and insulting (though granted, the "hillbilly" reference is pretty offensive no matter who you are, but it isn't related to the substance of her information). I'm sure personality plays a role in this, as I'm able to separate the factual information from the tone in which it is being presented. She has some good things to say that are honest and truthful evaluations, and some things with which I would not agree no matter how she presented it...like many authors.

 

This reviewer had an ax to grind and presented it in a very skewed way. I'm unfamiliar with this person, so I will try to read the next one and see if I still read it the same way.

 

By the way, I'm a strong personality and have several degrees, so it isn't as if I am a weak, uneducated woman who cannot analyze information and who defers to her husband all of the time. He's just as likely, and actually probably more likely to defer to me, particularly in areas of my strengths. Debbie's perspective has value, in the final analysis.

 

As course the review is skewed. Sometimes you find parts of a book so objectionable that any potentially redeeming bits are lost. So what if the chocolate mousse has a wonderful texture, the fact that the chef dumped a bunch of salt in it sort of ruins the whole experience. If I were served that mousse I would have no obligation to eat the whole thing and carefully catalogue it's redeeming qualities. Neither is the reviewer required to give the book a "fair shake" after being so put off by so much of it.

[FiveOaksAcademy]

“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?†Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.â€

 

~~Michael Pearl

 

I find it impossible to imagine 1) continuing to read a book after reading that; 2) ever reading a book by the author again; and 3) considering any accidental, remotely wise-sounding words coming from them to be a "nugget" I could hold on to.:confused:

Edited July 17, 2012 by FiveOaksAcademy

[Moxie]

“But if your husband has sexually molested the children, you should approach him with it. If he is truly repentant (not just exposed) and is willing to seek counseling, you may feel comfortable giving him an opportunity to prove himself, as long as you know the children are safe. If there is any thought that they are not safe, or if he is not repentant and willing to seek help, then go to the law and have him arrested. Stick by him, but testify against him in court. Have him do about 10 to 20 years, and by the time he gets out, you will have raised the kids, and you can be waiting for him with open arms of forgiveness and restitution. Will this glorify God? Forever. You ask, “What if he doesn’t repent even then?†Then you will be rewarded in heaven equal to the martyrs, and God will have something to rub in the Devil’s face. God hates divorce — always, forever, regardless, without exception.â€

 

~~Michael Pearl

 

This idea is SOO out there, every time I read it, I really wonder if he molested his children and is trying to feel okay about it years later.

[Nestof3]

I just wanted to add this. It was typed in response to someone who PMed me, thanking me for speaking out against this sort of imbalance in relationships. I hope it sheds light on the sort of instruction many women are under.

 

I was around it (patriarchy) for most of my marriage, and though it did not have direct results, it did affect us. There is an expectation set up for couples, and those under that teaching seem to flounder around trying to figure out how to apply it because if you don't, you feel guilt. Man's headship can also easily be the last word when things do get hard. I just need more voice than that. By nature, I tend to respect and show respect to people acting in a manner worthy of it. I think this model gives people motivation to strive to be respectable rather than depend on respect being given because of manship.

 

You are right that the changing tends to always begin with the women in these circles. Perhaps it's because women are the ones who tend to reach out or buy the self-help books. Women are reminded of all the things to do to make a man want to come home. Women are encouraged to make the home a haven as though they have been home all day doing nothing. I like a clean, uncluttered home, and I see value in it. Yes, I want my home to be a haven, but I want my husband to be a man I look forward to having come home -- not a critic or person waiting to be served the rest of the night.

 

In college, I read a book that encouraged women to apply makeup before praying in the morning because you should give God the same respect as your husband, and no woman would go before her husband not made up. The author rose very early, showered and applied her makeup before he ever got out of bed.

 

I personally like to look nice every day. I wear makeup, partly because I have facial flushing, and partly because I like myself better that way. I've been having fun lately buying jewelry and cute outfits. I spent years wearing dresses only and years with allergies to earrings, so I am enjoying this. I still don't dress provocatively but in a pleasant way. I do think both husband and wife desire their spouse to care about their appearances, but the stress is always put on the woman.

 

 

When have you ever read this oppressive stuff in a "how to be a better husband" book? From the pulpit, I've heard on more than one occasion, "If the barn needs painting, paint it" in reference to whether women should be permitted to wear makeup. I have read things of value in Christian marriage books aimed at husbands and wives alike. It just seems, though, that the books aimed at women have more anger, control and wacky ideas put in them. Marriage books for men primarily aim to teach a man to be satisfied sexually with one's wife despite the fact that she may have gained a few pounds and to remember date nights/flowers. They focus more on keeping husbands from doing the things their natural selves want to do while the self-help books for women seem to give a huge list of all the things women should be doing.

[Nestof3]

I just disagree with this. A leopard does not change his spots (absent mental illness, accident, etc). A guy shows his character early on if you are paying attention. Mostly, we don't - and I include myself in this. There were many guys I dated whom I knew were really bad bets in my gut. Some I dated too long.

 

 

I don't understand this about how your husband felt. How did she think he felt? He was probably worried about his wife, as any man would be. I don't understand what you are saying about you needing to trust your husband. Trust him with what?

 

 

 

You may disagree with it, but I have seen it first hand more than once -- with both men and women. There are so many situations that a dating couple never see. How on earth will you know what sort of parent your partner will be before having children? How do you assess for aging changing people? I have seen people become increasingly destructive with money in an effort to act against their unhappiness. I have seen people who were normal with money become addicted to shopping in order to provide a temporary high. I have seen women who once couldn't keep their hands off their husbands loathe his hands on her.

 

The woman was saying that since my husband was my head and had a direct line with God, he would know whether I should have the procedure. I could trust in my husband's knowing, and I would be protected because I was trusting my husband.

[Hikin' Mama]

Very well said, Dawn! I think you should write a book. ;)

 

I read the review. I rid my house of all Pearl materials the day I watched their marriage videos. Mr. Pearl is a control freak with serious anti-equality issues with women. You really see it the most in their marriage video.

 

I thought I'd give the book mentioned a try, but I got so tired of the same insinuation that no matter what, submission and not saying a word will win out every time. I do not want any part of a relationship like that. In fact, I have come to a point (after 13 years) of believing that our marriage works best if there is no head. I continue to serve, be a helper, etc., but I expect the same in return and have a new-found freedom to let my husband know my needs and expectations. I expect my husband to respect everything I have to bring to the table. I have homeschooled for 13 years, I am the accountant for our business, I take care of all financial details, I run the household, and I am a strong intelligent capable woman. I need someone who isn't threatened by that but respects it. I should be able to say, when asked what could improve our marriage, "If he would fix the screen door that I have asked him to fix numerous times" without being told I am a controlling ungrateful woman. Like I said, watch the video.

 

Meanwhile, women whose husbands are addicted to p!rn are admonished that they should put lingerie on and draw the husband away from it. No. I am not that sort of woman, and I don't want to be. If I had that problem, I would tell my husband he has one chance to choose . That's it. I refuse to have relations with a man I don't respect. When I feel my husband has started to neglect my emotional needs, I tell him. I also remind him that the bedroom only works if I feel loved.

 

Yes, I am woman; hear me -- not roar, but be heard.

[Soror]

So, a women is supposed to wear make-up, that is some kind of requirement. Seriously, that is insane. I can see that it *can* be something nice to do but required, nope. Not all men even like make-up. It seems such an insanely small worldview to even believe these things. Everything is on the woman, if she chooses a bad spouse it is her fault, it is her responsibility to fix the marriage and then her fault if a marriage is miserable or abusive. Yep, that seems exactly what Jesus and the Bible taught. So, much for personal responsibility.

[Word Nerd]

Here is the second part of the review.

[pdalley]

Here is the second part of the review.

 

I'm glad he exposes the bad theology - bit by bit.

 

Jesus constantly called out the Jewish rules on their legalism. The 'god' the Pearl's worship and the 'bible' they read in no way resembles the God I serve nor the Bible I read.

 

 

Do we have a puking smilie? That should be required when discussing the Pearls.

 

And I don't often pick through cow patties to find diamonds so the argument that there are - pardon the pun - pearls of wisdom to be gleaned in this crud doesn't wash with me. One does not have to step into a cow patty to realize what it is - one can smell it. Therefore the requirement to read the entire book before criticizing it doesn't wash with me either.

[mom2scouts]

I have read the book.

 

I have read the review.

 

I have read this thread.

 

I have researched, professionally, the Pearls' advice from a marital and theological standpoint.

 

This book of theirs, is yet another example of:

 

1. Bad theology. Very bad theology.

2. Bad marriage advice. Very bad marriage advice.

3. Cultish, seductive, predatory.

4. Full of power, control, and manipulation.

 

It's sick, dangerous stuff. And there is NOTHING of value in that book (or their others) that can't be found in sources that are at least benign if not helpful.

 

:iagree:I don't care if there are any "little nuggets" of value. It's too hard to find them amongst all the bad stuff. There are plenty of much better sources.

[KnitWit]

My husband has lived in various places around the world. When I told him that a local woman that I know was espousing the teaching in that book and was choosing, for *that* time, to harp on the point that all Christian women should put on make up every day, which I DON'T, he laughed and said that Christians in America are very bad to twist and "interpret" (using that word loosely) scripture according to life in "America". He told me to point out to her that in many places around the world, the only women who get up and put on make up every day are women who are up to no good. :)

[justamouse]

Here is the second part of the review.

 

Reading that review made me sick to my stomach, I can't even imagine reading the book.

[Scarlett]

Reading that review made me sick to my stomach, I can't even imagine reading the book.

 

Me too.

[Juniper]

I have come to the conclusion that The Pearls' are living and teaching a very twisted form of Christian BDSM. This is their own fantasy, being "sanctified" and taught to others.

 

Hey, it is one thing if you are willing partner in that lifestyle, but to force others into it using guilt, shame, and fear....and God is abominable.:glare:

[Word Nerd]

:iagree:I don't care if there are any "little nuggets" of value. It's too hard to find them amongst all the bad stuff. There are plenty of much better sources.

 

:iagree: Or, as one of the commenters on the second part of the review put it:

 

"Some claim that they have been helped by this book, but just because I could find some Chicken McNuggets in the dumpster behind McDonald's doesn't mean that's where I should find sustenance."