Child who won't/can't narrate?

[TKDmom]

I have recently started to incorporate some CM ideas into our homeschool. My first step has been to put more emphasis on copywork and narration. I am trying to have each child narrate back to me maybe twice during the school day immediately after reading.

 

This is how it plays out:

I read a chapter of Pinocchio with ds6 (these are very short chapters). He begs me to read another chapter. I tell him I'll read another chapter later, but right now I want him to tell me what happened in this chapter. He flops over on the couch and moans. I rephrase and ask him to tell me one thing that happened in the chapter, or I might ask what happened first. He groans that he doesn't remember. Eventually, he will tell me, in order, the 3 main events of the chapter (I don't require him to tell me 3 things, but each chapter seems to have about 3 things happen to Pinocchio). Once I get him talking ds does a great narration (for a 6yo), but it is painful to get him to the point where he will tell me anything.

 

With dd10:

I assign her to read specific pages in a book (today it was Poor Richard). She reads 3 or 4 times as much as she was supposed to because she didn't really pay any attention to the assignment, and she doesn't notice when she got to the end a chapter. I ask her what she read about. She tells me she doesn't know. I ask if I need to read out loud to her so that she can understand it better. She shrugs her shoulders, so I start reading out loud. She shouts that she already knows what happened...so I ask what did happen. She rolls her eyes and asks why she has to do this anyway. I'll spare you the details of our conversation after that. In the end I got a narration something like this, "He went to London to get a printer's stuff, but then he found out he had been tricked, but then he made another friend who got him a job with another printer's shop." :confused: This girl has gone through a lot of WWE, and did a great job retelling fables when we did CW Aesop last summer. She's a voracious reader and I know she understands what she is reading, but she's not willing to narrate anything back to me. She doesn't see any point to learning how to write or to even compose her thoughts into coherent sentences.

 

ds8 does better than either of those, but he still thinks narration is stupid and pointless and tells me the bare minimum about what we read.

 

I'm so frustrated with these kids, and it's not helping their attitude at all. How can I help them enjoy narration?

 

My only thought is that I have to have them narrate to dh, because they enjoy telling him things about their day. But he comes home hours after we do our school reading, and once or twice a week he doesn't come home at all until after they are in bed.

Edited May 14, 2012 by bonniebeth4

[ssavings]

DD5 draws pictures of the main points in a chapter(we use narration right now for chapters she reads to me), then tells me one sentence about her picture. We then use the sentence about her picture as copy-work.

 

It's not CM, but because DD5 is highly visual-spatial, she does better with drawing the main points first. She thinks in picture, and this helps her convert the pictures in her head to words.

 

Maybe if they could record their narration in a tape recorder, or type it onto the computer? Something more fun.

[kristin0713]

My suggestion with your 6yo is to start by acting out what you just read with him. We have been reading through the Burgess books this year with HOD's LHFHG curriculum. While I wasn't crazy about those books at first, they have been an awesome introduction to narration because of the very short chapters all the little forest creatures that are reintroduced in each book. Acting out the chapters has been really fun for them--we use stuffed animals and beanie babies. My kids have gotten to know the characters well and even play games and create stories with them aside from what we have read.

 

I don't feel qualified to suggest strategies for your older kiddos since we aren't at that point yet.

[Parrothead]

Dd hated narration. I just dropped it. If I ask specific questions about what we've read she can answer them just fine.

[kristin0713]

DD5 draws pictures of the main points in a chapter(we use narration right now for chapters she reads to me), then tells me one sentence about her picture. We then use the sentence about her picture as copy-work.

 

Yes! We do that, too. Draw a picture and write one sentence about what happened. Again, this is really for the littler ones.

[purduemeche]

I wouldn't stress about a 6 yo boy struggling with this - very common. As he gets older he will be able to recount details without context, but right now that is not a skill you should expect. I encourage you to ask him specific questions about the chapter ("Why was Pinnochio turned into a real boy at the end?). This way you can still judge his retention.

[TKDmom]

DD5 draws pictures of the main points in a chapter(we use narration right now for chapters she reads to me), then tells me one sentence about her picture. We then use the sentence about her picture as copy-work.

 

I actually did that with ds6 today after we read one of Aesop's Fables. He drew the animals and copied a sentence. It seemed silly to ask for a narration right after we talked about what it would mean to bell a cat. He likes drawing, so I may have him do this more often. Maybe I should let dd10 do the same, but with a paragraph to copy. ;)

[sagira]

DD5 draws pictures of the main points in a chapter(we use narration right now for chapters she reads to me), then tells me one sentence about her picture. We then use the sentence about her picture as copy-work.

 

It's not CM, but because DD5 is highly visual-spatial, she does better with drawing the main points first. She thinks in picture, and this helps her convert the pictures in her head to words.

 

Maybe if they could record their narration in a tape recorder, or type it onto the computer? Something more fun.

 

It is CM. In the CM books she would ask for an illustration too. Since she is just beginning narration, I would have her tell you informally first, anything that she can remember. Have her draw a picture, act it out with puppets. Be creative.

 

My ds started out not narrating very well, and now he's really good at it. It takes practice and consistency (doesn't everything? :)).

[Cosmos]

This is how it plays out:

I read a chapter of Pinocchio with ds6 (these are very short chapters). He begs me to read another chapter. I tell him I'll read another chapter later, but right now I want him to tell me what happened in this chapter. He flops over on the couch and moans. I rephrase and ask him to tell me one thing that happened in the chapter, or I might ask what happened first. He groans that he doesn't remember. Eventually, he will tell me, in order, the 3 main events of the chapter (I don't require him to tell me 3 things, but each chapter seems to have about 3 things happen to Pinocchio). Once I get him talking ds does a great narration (for a 6yo), but it is painful to get him to the point where he will tell me anything.

 

When my ds was little (and six is very little), if he seemed reluctant, I would jump in and say enthusiastically, "I'll take a turn!" I'd retell the story with lots of flair and dramatic expression. Sometimes I'd pause as if trying to remember what happened next. Ds would be itching to jump in and tell it his way, with different details or with just the right word. I did not let him interrupt or correct me, but I would let him have a turn of his own after me. By that time he had forgotten he didn't want to do it in the first place.

 

Other things my ds enjoyed at that age:

 

• acting out the story
  
• using props and/or stuffed animals
  
• singing the story
  
• standing on a chair as if giving a speech
  
• doing narrations while on a walk (we often did memory work then too)
  
• evening retellings for dad (you mentioned this -- it doesn't have to be every day)
  

With dd10:

I assign her to read specific pages in a book (today it was Poor Richard). She reads 3 or 4 times as much as she was supposed to because she didn't really pay any attention to the assignment, and she doesn't notice when she got to the end a chapter. I ask her what she read about. She tells me she doesn't know. I ask if I need to read out loud to her so that she can understand it better. She shrugs her shoulders, so I start reading out loud. She shouts that she already knows what happened...so I ask what did happen. She rolls her eyes and asks why she has to do this anyway. I'll spare you the details of our conversation after that. In the end I got a narration something like this, "He went to London to get a printer's stuff, but then he found out he had been tricked, but then he made another friend who got him a job with another printer's shop." :confused: This girl has gone through a lot of WWE, and did a great job retelling fables when we did CW Aesop last summer. She's a voracious reader and I know she understands what she is reading, but she's not willing to narrate anything back to me. She doesn't see any point to learning how to write or to even compose her thoughts into coherent sentences.

It sounds like she's not feeling challenged. I would look for some new ways for her to interact with the material. She could learn to outline or make a plot diagram or write a reader response.

 

One thing I do with my ds11 is ask him to summarize something in just ONE sentence. This can be very challenging and forces him to really focus on what the main point of the passage is.

[ErinE]

I think with your children's ages they shouldn't have to narrate everything. I use narration to guide the childrens' writing so we only use it once a day. Prompting helps the kids form their answers; I ask specific questions. "What was Mr. Cherry trying to make? What happened when he started working on the wood? Where did the voice come from?"

 

After asking the questions, I then ask dd6, "What's one thing you remember about this chapter?" If the answer isn't a complete sentence, I guide her through the sentence and have her repeat it. Right now, it is a short sentence, 5-6 words long.

 

In history and science, I ask questions of ds9, but then I expect a 3-4 sentence answer. Also, I usually guide the format of the narration. "What three changes did Catherine the Great make in Russia? Tell me in order the events in this chapter. What is the life cycle of a star?" For literature, I expect an oral narration, but the guidance is very general. "Who's the main character? What was the conflict? Did you enjoy the book? What did you like about it?"

[Carol in Cal.]

It sounds like you are interrupting their pleasure at this reading by requiring this. Be careful lest you ruin their enjoyment of reading altogether.

 

Instead, model it yourself, or use it for science or history instead of pleasure reading.

[Critterfixer]

For the six year old boy: Shorter, complete stories. Both very important for little boys. Ask me how I know!

Little boys like closure. They don't care to narrate chapters or sections unless the material is a) very interesting or b) very exciting. And both of these qualities will get you a request not to stop reading. So you see why a closed story is important for narration.

 

Stay with Aesop's fables, folk tales and some short fairy tales for now. Be sure you pick stories with high boy interest.

With my sons I often would work through narration with them on a sheet of paper, drawing out the stories, making sure they knew the characters and diagramming the plot via story web. But keeping it short and complete was key.

 

I don't have a lot of help for you with the ten year old. One thing you could do is to have her do complete works for a while--perhaps short stories which are longer than fables and often require a little deeper thought. Narration can and needs to become not only a book report but contain her own thoughts on the material. It sounds like she has NO trouble expressing herself verbally but needs to learn she can do that on paper too.:tongue_smilie:

 

For the eight year old, I might try expanding his narration to longer works that are NOT complete, but make sure they are also not too terribly long. Ideally the book selections would involve things he needed to keep track of to read the next part--for a girl that would be stories with characters and relationships. For a boy I'd go with adventures where there is a lot of moving around; islands, maps, treasure hunts, survival and how the main character achieved it.

 

Just my two cents.

[MomatHWTK]

Have them tell each other about what they are reading- call it "Read and Tell". :)

[materursa]

 

This page at SCM has a whole bunch of different narrator ion ideas. Perhaps mixing it up a bit would help. Or, like a pp suggested, perhaps your older child could interact differently if it is from a non-fiction source. If you take a peek at the logic stage suggestions in WTM, there are things like listing facts and outlining to do.

[TKDmom]

It sounds like you are interrupting their pleasure at this reading by requiring this. Be careful lest you ruin their enjoyment of reading altogether.

 

Instead, model it yourself, or use it for science or history instead of pleasure reading.

 

I'm not requiring them to narrate their pleasure reading. They read lots of books on their own that we never discuss unless they initiate the conversation. The books I'm asking for narrations are our formal literature selections from AO. Each week they read from a history biography, a science reader, a geography book like Paddle to the Sea, and a classic literature book.

 

 

Really, I think today was just a particularly bad day. I sat down with dd10 after she grumbled and slopped through her math assignment and talked to her about what was making her so grumpy. She didn't feel like anything was particularly wrong, she just felt like being stubborn about school work.

 

I let them finish up their school work at the library this afternoon, and everyone was much easier to teach. DS6 interrupted my reading of SOTW to tell me in minute detail the story that I was reading (he'd listened to it recently on CD). DD10 told me a few details about her history reading with a smile on her face. A change of scene seems to have made a huge difference.

[PeterPan]

This is the age where that happens. Starts now and continues a while. Guess you can chose to fight it or pick up the clue phone. She's clearly able to summarize, and she already told you she's bored with it. Give her a more mature or sophisticated form of output if output is essential to you. Sometimes you have to get a little more creative than just saying narrate every day. She might like to make a sequence of screensaver images or powerpoints or something, one for each day's task, so that at the end she has something to show for it that she's actually proud of. It might be that she's good at narration and summaries and you just plain move on. And yes, writing needs to have a point. Writing a narration, for some kids, has NO POINT. Some kids are creative or just plain more motivated when the task is actually interesting.

 

Don't fight with your kids over stuff that isn't essential. Bend a little. Trees bend, twigs break. ;)

[TKDmom]

For the six year old boy: Shorter, complete stories. Both very important for little boys. Ask me how I know!

Little boys like closure. They don't care to narrate chapters or sections unless the material is a) very interesting or b) very exciting. And both of these qualities will get you a request not to stop reading. So you see why a closed story is important for narration.

 

Stay with Aesop's fables, folk tales and some short fairy tales for now. Be sure you pick stories with high boy interest.

With my sons I often would work through narration with them on a sheet of paper, drawing out the stories, making sure they knew the characters and diagramming the plot via story web. But keeping it short and complete was key.

 

 

That's a great point. A lot of his literature is Aesop's fables, fairy tales, and short stories. I think I will drop the narrations from longer read-alouds.

 

 

I don't have a lot of help for you with the ten year old. One thing you could do is to have her do complete works for a while--perhaps short stories which are longer than fables and often require a little deeper thought. Narration can and needs to become not only a book report but contain her own thoughts on the material. It sounds like she has NO trouble expressing herself verbally but needs to learn she can do that on paper too.:tongue_smilie:

 

Honestly she does have trouble expressing herself verbally at times. It takes her forever to compose her thoughts. She'll tap me on the shoulder to ask me a question and then stare at me for several seconds before she figures out what she actually wanted to ask. But maybe it would be easier for her to start writing out narrations. She dislikes writing, but it would give her more time to think about what she wants to say. I'll have to talk to her about it when we're not butting heads over the actual assignment. ;)

[TKDmom]

Also, I usually guide the format of the narration. "What three changes did Catherine the Great make in Russia? Tell me in order the events in this chapter. What is the life cycle of a star?" For literature, I expect an oral narration, but the guidance is very general. "Who's the main character? What was the conflict? Did you enjoy the book? What did you like about it?"

 

That's a great idea. My dd10 in particular seems to feel overwhelmed about telling me everything she just read about. It doesn't help that she consistently reads more than she was supposed to read. :tongue_smilie:

[kolamum]

Try a different tactic. Read 2 chapters, put the book away. Turn around & say, "Man I wonder what will happen to..." mention the cliff hanger of the chapter or something a bit more random.

 

When we read Wombat Chronicles, for instance I said, "I wonder if Barry really will learn to fly, I mean it seems silly to think if a flying wombat doesn't it?"

 

That brought up so much discussion with my boys I was shocked. Discussing what we're reading or watching is second nature. One prefers to tell back what he saw while the other prefers to discuss it.

 

"Do you think the lioness' babies will all survive?"

"But what if the Daddy lion gets cranky when they put them all together?"

 

Or my all time favourite question that he ever asked: "Mom, did Heidi ever get married? I'm thinking she should marry Peter & that Grandfather & Grandmother should get married, they'd all be family & it would be cool. Is there another book I need to ahve these questions answered!"

 

Treat the characters in the book like old friends. Mention them over dinner or lunch or during car rides when things are getting crazy & you want a little order to your day.

 

Choose something that your child is PASSIONATE about. My son would probably scream if I asked him to narrate every book I read, but if I ask him to tell me what he read about the Civil War today I better have a big cup of joe & a warm quilt on hand. :D

[Mommy22alyns]

I wouldn't stress with the 6yo. Maybe start with simpler things to narrate?

[Kfamily]

I think all of the advice/suggestions for you so far have been wonderful!

 

 

 

I did write about narrations today and thought I would share it with you here:

 

http://www.amindinthelight.blogspot.jp/2012/05/stretching-our-ideas-on-narrations.html

 

 

Just my thoughts about it...so feel free to take what you like from it and ignore the rest.:001_smile:

Edited May 15, 2012 by Kfamily

[Tracy]

I had this problem, too, until we started WWE. As the teacher, I didn't realize how I could break down the task for her and how I needed to guide her through smaller steps before I asked her to freely narrate a whole story, chapter, or even just a paragraph. Dd7 is doing great narrations with WWE.

[Anne]

Or my all time favourite question that he ever asked: "Mom, did Heidi ever get married? I'm thinking she should marry Peter & that Grandfather & Grandmother should get married, they'd all be family & it would be cool. Is there another book I need to ahve these questions answered!"

 

 

 

You probably know that there are two sequels to Heidi that were written by Spryri's translater, but I just thought I'd toss that out for any who might not know...

 

Anne

[Targhee]

When my ds was little (and six is very little), if he seemed reluctant, I would jump in and say enthusiastically, "I'll take a turn!" I'd retell the story with lots of flair and dramatic expression. Sometimes I'd pause as if trying to remember what happened next. Ds would be itching to jump in and tell it his way, with different details or with just the right word. I did not let him interrupt or correct me, but I would let him have a turn of his own after me. By that time he had forgotten he didn't want to do it in the first place.

 

Other things my ds enjoyed at that age:

 

• acting out the story
  
• using props and/or stuffed animals
  
• singing the story
  
• standing on a chair as if giving a speech
  
• doing narrations while on a walk (we often did memory work then too)
  
• evening retellings for dad (you mentioned this -- it doesn't have to be every day)
  

:thumbup:

[LindaOz]

When I start teaching a child to narrate, I start the oral narration myself and then stop mid-sentence for the child to fill in a word or two, then I keep going. Soon they get the idea and start filling in more of the sentence that I leave hanging. Then they move on to telling more of it themselves. If they get stuck, I pick up the storyline myself and keep going for a bit, then stop again ready for the child to continue. It's kind of like tag-team narration. I've found this to work really well.

 

Another thing... I was reading something written by Julie from Bravewriter the other day, and she calls narration 'Big Juicy Conversation'. She suggests that instead of making narration a cut and dried process that occurs after every reading in the same way, make it more a delightful conversation about the story. Discuss why things happened, people's reactions etc. I like this idea because giving narrations CAN become a rut that we get stuck in if we aren't careful - as valuable as they are.

 

HTH

[dharmacat]

I let them finish up their school work at the library this afternoon, and everyone was much easier to teach. A change of scene seems to have made a huge difference.

 

Yes--change of scenery can reset everyone's attitudes (including mom's);)

[Aspasia]

This is the age where that happens. Starts now and continues a while. Guess you can chose to fight it or pick up the clue phone. She's clearly able to summarize, and she already told you she's bored with it. Give her a more mature or sophisticated form of output if output is essential to you. Sometimes you have to get a little more creative than just saying narrate every day. She might like to make a sequence of screensaver images or powerpoints or something, one for each day's task, so that at the end she has something to show for it that she's actually proud of. It might be that she's good at narration and summaries and you just plain move on. And yes, writing needs to have a point. Writing a narration, for some kids, has NO POINT. Some kids are creative or just plain more motivated when the task is actually interesting.

 

Don't fight with your kids over stuff that isn't essential. Bend a little. Trees bend, twigs break. ;)

 

Wow, for real? I'm pretty sure this is the most condescending thing I've ever read in this board. Honestly. :confused:

 

Have them tell each other about what they are reading- call it "Read and Tell". :)

 

Anyway, I don't have experience with narration yet but I thought this was a great suggestion and it reminded me of other suggestions I've seen where people do this during their tea time--everyone talks about what they're reading. I think it sounds fun. :)

[raceNzanesmom]

Start small. Narration is a learned skill. With the 6 y/o, read a very short section (even just a paragraph or two), get excited and asked him what happened. Have him finish your sentence, act it out, anything that gets his juices flowing. For your older, I would also keep it short and supervised. Expand as they get better at it. Model for them. It isn't as easy as it looks.

 

I wouldn't do any written narration until they are good at oral narration.

 

Remember not to interrupt them, and there's no right answer. It how they interrupt the reading.

 

Be gentle, yet consistent and I bet you'll see growth over the course of a school year.

[Ecclecticmum]

Haven't read replies, so forgive me if I repeat something.

 

Both my children and I hate the "listed" (i.e. the way that always seems to be approached in books) for narration. I just read it to her....I heard it. In her logical mind, she cannot fathom why I would want to hear it back (she asked me a couple of months ago if I had gone "senile" :lol: and forgotten what I read....I told her yes....and she still refused lol)

 

I have 5 ways I use (for variety, so we are not doing the same thing over and over again)

 

1. She draws the "story" whilst I read it out. She then "narrates" her picture to me, and I write the narration down on a new page and staple it to her drawing. This makes her feel like she is talking about her picture, rather than the book we just read.

 

2. I get her to give an "oral report" to daddy about the story. Usually that night (sometimes the following night) daddy will sit down and listen to her narration (she's telling somebody who hasn't "heard" the story, so is happy to do so....shes also very happy to show off for daddy). Sometimes Daddy is extra "daddy-like" and gives her a "report card" based on her narration (usually something like A+ wonderful Story! :lol: )

 

3. I'll staple a couple of pages together to make a book, and she'll do a picture sequence of the story. She'll then "read" it out again and again to her brother, sister, daddy and anyone whose willing to listen!

 

4. She'll narrate the story for a "good reason" so I can add narrations into emails and letters to family. She Loves telling them about books she read.

 

5. I use their curiosity in "gadgets" to my advantage. Whilst she won't narrate normally, if I give her the iphone, and bring up the voice recorder, she'll happily record her narration.

 

HTH xxx

[stripe]

I have recently started to incorporate some CM ideas into our homeschool. My first step has been to put more emphasis on copywork and narration. I am trying to have each child narrate back to me maybe twice during the school day immediately after reading.

 

This is how it plays out:

I read a chapter of Pinocchio with ds6 (these are very short chapters). He begs me to read another chapter. I tell him I'll read another chapter later, but right now I want him to tell me what happened in this chapter. He flops over on the couch and moans. I rephrase and ask him to tell me one thing that happened in the chapter, or I might ask what happened first. He groans that he doesn't remember. Eventually, he will tell me, in order, the 3 main events of the chapter (I don't require him to tell me 3 things, but each chapter seems to have about 3 things happen to Pinocchio). Once I get him talking ds does a great narration (for a 6yo), but it is painful to get him to the point where he will tell me anything.

 

Start shorter. Waaaaay shorter. If you read CM's works, she had kids, esp at that age, narrate based on a paragraph or perhaps a page, never an entire long chapter. It's too much to produce a narration. I think you're actually asking for a short summary of a long work, which seems to me to be a different and more advanced skill.

[kolamum]

You probably know that there are two sequels to Heidi that were written by Spryri's translater, but I just thought I'd toss that out for any who might not know...

 

Anne

 

Yes! :D