What does this say about our character as a nation?

[4everHis]

The bolded makes me crazy. This report was on our news last night.

 

DETROIT -

It’s well known that people in metro Detroit love their cars. But many also love to own and operate boats, too. And the local boating industry appears to have a problem: There’s not enough marine mechanics to fill the growing number of jobs.

Dave Unger and his wife, Mary, own Custom Enterprise – a boat repair company. They said there’s work to be done but not enough hands to do it.

The couple said they’ve been looking to hire boat mechanics and someone to do fiberglass repair. They said they’ve made contact with several hundred potential employees but can’t even get a call back.

“Not only can we not get a call back, but if they do show up, they’ll actually tell me right to my face, after I’ve spent 15 or 20 minutes or half an hour in an interview, that they’re not interested in a job,” Unger said.

 

A job doing basic boat maintenance pays on average between $10 and $12 an hour. A starting mechanic will earn $14 to $17 an hour and a senior boat mechanic could earn up to $35 an hour.

So why aren’t there any takers?

“If I interview them and ask them what they’ve been doing for six months or a year, it’s, ‘I’m collecting unemployment and I’m doing side work,’” Unger said.

Local 4 spoke with a spokeswoman from the Michigan Unemployement Insurance Agency who said unemployed workers who take benefits are supposed to actively be seeking jobs, but not everyone does.

“There have been some issues with fraud. We are cracking down on that,” said spokeswoman Chawn Greene-Farmer. “Unemployment benefits are not there for foks for a way of life. It’s supposed to help you be able to move along as you search for employment.

With summer approaching, the Unger’s said they’re intensifying their search for help, never thinking it would be so hard to give somebody a job.

Custom Enterprise is located at 11860 Freud Street in Detroit. It can be reached at 313-822-8585.

video here:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/Detroit-boat-repair-company-says-it-s-slim-pickings-for-mechanics/-/1719418/10161078/-/w9rd04/-/index.html

[Jennifer in MI]

The bolded makes me crazy. This report was on our news last night.

 

DETROIT -

It’s well known that people in metro Detroit love their cars. But many also love to own and operate boats, too. And the local boating industry appears to have a problem: There’s not enough marine mechanics to fill the growing number of jobs.

Dave Unger and his wife, Mary, own Custom Enterprise – a boat repair company. They said there’s work to be done but not enough hands to do it.

The couple said they’ve been looking to hire boat mechanics and someone to do fiberglass repair. They said they’ve made contact with several hundred potential employees but can’t even get a call back.

“Not only can we not get a call back, but if they do show up, they’ll actually tell me right to my face, after I’ve spent 15 or 20 minutes or half an hour in an interview, that they’re not interested in a job,” Unger said.

 

A job doing basic boat maintenance pays on average between $10 and $12 an hour. A starting mechanic will earn $14 to $17 an hour and a senior boat mechanic could earn up to $35 an hour.

So why aren’t there any takers?

“If I interview them and ask them what they’ve been doing for six months or a year, it’s, ‘I’m collecting unemployment and I’m doing side work,’” Unger said.

Local 4 spoke with a spokeswoman from the Michigan Unemployement Insurance Agency who said unemployed workers who take benefits are supposed to actively be seeking jobs, but not everyone does.

“There have been some issues with fraud. We are cracking down on that,” said spokeswoman Chawn Greene-Farmer. “Unemployment benefits are not there for foks for a way of life. It’s supposed to help you be able to move along as you search for employment.

With summer approaching, the Unger’s said they’re intensifying their search for help, never thinking it would be so hard to give somebody a job.

Custom Enterprise is located at 11860 Freud Street in Detroit. It can be reached at 313-822-8585.

video here:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/Detroit-boat-repair-company-says-it-s-slim-pickings-for-mechanics/-/1719418/10161078/-/w9rd04/-/index.html

 

I live near Detroit and I see a lot of this. I used to judge until I had a friend in this situation. She is a new single mom raising two kids on her own with no support from her ex. She is on every benefit the state will allow. She gets food and free health care and child care. Plus, she is taking college classes that the state is paying for. She has a job. If she ups her hours any more, she will lose the nearly all the benefits. Her job doesn't provide health insurance, so she'd lose that. She'd lose the money for her college classes, so she'd have to drop out. She would probably make enough for food, but probably not for child care. So, I guess, from the outside, she looks like one of these lazy people taking advantage of the system - unwilling to work more hours to get off state support. Those of us close to her know differently.

 

She HATES being on public assistance. But, she sees it as a short-term thing. When she finishes college, she'll be able to get a job that will pay her well enough to get off of it.

 

I bet the same is true for many in this story. They are not only receiving unemployment checks, but the state is probably also providing food assistance and health insurance. If they take a job at $10/hour, they cannot live on that, but they lose a lot of the other assistance.

 

Now, I'm sure there are those out there who are just taking advantage of the system. And, that's a problem. But, seeing my friend go through this, I do have more sympathy.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Jennifer in MI

[OH_Homeschooler]

I don't think it says anything about our character as a nation. I don't think it says anything about the character of Detroit citizens. It says that perhaps there is more to the story. Reading the comments on that article, seems there might be. That is really low pay for a mechanic, apparently.

 

Suppose some of the applicants who (supposedly) said they'd rather collect unemployment are also in charge of watching their kids while they look for a job. They can collect unemployment, so they still have some money coming in. That option is going to be better than taking a minimum wage job where all the money goes toward daycare (all money coming in is going to pay someone else).

 

If the guy quoted in the article can't hire someone because he refuses to pay the going rate, he will be motivated to say it's just because people are lazy.

[jewellsmommy]

The bolded makes me crazy. This report was on our news last night.

 

DETROIT -

It’s well known that people in metro Detroit love their cars. But many also love to own and operate boats, too. And the local boating industry appears to have a problem: There’s not enough marine mechanics to fill the growing number of jobs.

Dave Unger and his wife, Mary, own Custom Enterprise – a boat repair company. They said there’s work to be done but not enough hands to do it.

The couple said they’ve been looking to hire boat mechanics and someone to do fiberglass repair. They said they’ve made contact with several hundred potential employees but can’t even get a call back.

“Not only can we not get a call back, but if they do show up, they’ll actually tell me right to my face, after I’ve spent 15 or 20 minutes or half an hour in an interview, that they’re not interested in a job,†Unger said.

 

A job doing basic boat maintenance pays on average between $10 and $12 an hour. A starting mechanic will earn $14 to $17 an hour and a senior boat mechanic could earn up to $35 an hour.

So why aren’t there any takers?

“If I interview them and ask them what they’ve been doing for six months or a year, it’s, ‘I’m collecting unemployment and I’m doing side work,’†Unger said.

Local 4 spoke with a spokeswoman from the Michigan Unemployement Insurance Agency who said unemployed workers who take benefits are supposed to actively be seeking jobs, but not everyone does.

“There have been some issues with fraud. We are cracking down on that,†said spokeswoman Chawn Greene-Farmer. “Unemployment benefits are not there for foks for a way of life. It’s supposed to help you be able to move along as you search for employment.

With summer approaching, the Unger’s said they’re intensifying their search for help, never thinking it would be so hard to give somebody a job.

Custom Enterprise is located at 11860 Freud Street in Detroit. It can be reached at 313-822-8585.

video here:

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/Detroit-boat-repair-company-says-it-s-slim-pickings-for-mechanics/-/1719418/10161078/-/w9rd04/-/index.html

 

 

 

I don't think that this represents the majority of people on unemployment. I believe that most would love a full time job. Sure, there will always be those who take advantage. And being on too long may corrupt some, but I don't think that this explains the situation above.

 

Some of those people applying may be applying because they have to (for requirements of unemployment?) but they know they don't have the necessary skills for the job. Or maybe they need more money than the job is offering...I don't know. But, things are usually far more complicated than they appear.

[ReneTL]

I like Chile's system. Instead of government unemployment benefits, their citizens/employers pay into an unemployment savings account. If they lose their job, they have savings to bridge the gap. They use as little or as much as they need so there's an incentive to take a job, any job. Any money they don't spend would roll into retirement savings.

 

Our system is flawed. I have a friend that is looking for a job, but she won't take a job making less than her unemployment benefits. If she takes a part time job, she'll end up bringing in less money. It's just so illogical.

[SailorMom]

Googling the wage of a boat mechanic in that area of the country shows that what he is offering is the going rate - if he is offering what is listed in the article.

[SKL]

I think part of it is that wages were so inflated in the auto industry for so long. Not sure how to get people back to the reality they really should have been at all along.

 

I don't necessarily oppose the temporary daycare and basic healthcare assistance, but people receiving it should have to give something back. And before people start the "single moms can't" argument, I'm a single mom of two kindergarten kids, and I've always worked full time and also found time to do volunteer work.

 

I'm all for helping those in true need, but I don't know how this can be sustainable for the state / country. People will need to scale back sooner or later.

[SonshineLearner]

That we've included rules in our "help" that make self help/extra hard work to get ahead.... next to impossible. AND, I believe that multi-generational living would be one answer. We aren't independent livers, regardless of what we would like to think.... We all like help, even if we want/need to pay for it....

[Annie G]

I get what you're saying. A friend has been out of work for three years. He won't take a job unless it's as a pastor. He feels called to be a pastor. He collected unemployment until it ran out and did side jobs for cash. Unreported. Now he's going to college- and at age 50, it's really not going to help him get a job. But taxpayers are footing the bill.

 

I can tell you about a dozen similar stories from folks I personally know. Most on unemployment don't abuse the system but of course there will always be some who do.

[SKL]

And when they say they are working on the side - are they reporting their side income to the government? Many don't, and the problem with that is that they end up bringing in more money for less work than honest people who do work full-time and report their income.

 

Oh, and the $10 per hour is for a cleaning type job. You can live on $10 per hour if your lifestyle is as modest as your professional ambitions. The idea that the government should bridge the gap between efforts and wants is a problem.

[4everHis]

I live near Detroit also and I realize there are situations like the one you described. WE needed unemployement when dh was laid off, but we did our darndest to get to a point that we didn't need it; even though we're now making 1/2 what we made before. I saw this 'attitude' even before the economy tanked. The attitude of how little can I work and still draw unemployment. The concern for me is the attitude of 'how little can I work?'

[melissel]

Ugh, never mind. This topic has been done to death here.

Edited April 4, 2012 by melissel
Changed my mind about participating

[4everHis]

I think part of it is that wages were so inflated in the auto industry for so long. Not sure how to get people back to the reality they really should have been at all along.

 

I don't necessarily oppose the temporary daycare and basic healthcare assistance, but people receiving it should have to give something back. And before people start the "single moms can't" argument, I'm a single mom of two kindergarten kids, and I've always worked full time and also found time to do volunteer work.

 

I'm all for helping those in true need, but I don't know how this can be sustainable for the state / country. People will need to scale back sooner or later.

 

I totally agree with the blue. I think it's a big part of the problem. I'm also concerned about the black bolded. The state of Michigan and the city of Detroit in particular can't sustain supporting people.

[4everHis]

I get what you're saying. A friend has been out of work for three years. He won't take a job unless it's as a pastor. He feels called to be a pastor. He collected unemployment until it ran out and did side jobs for cash. Unreported. Now he's going to college- and at age 50, it's really not going to help him get a job. But taxpayers are footing the bill.

 

I can tell you about a dozen similar stories from folks I personally know. Most on unemployment don't abuse the system but of course there will always be some who do.

 

I agree. A lot are NOT abusing the system. Funny though, I recently brought up a 35ish year old guy we know who won't take a job that isn't tied to his degree and hasn't worked in 2 years. He's lost everything, moved back with his mom and whines that girls don't like him. In that case most people said he needed to suck it up, take any job he could get, that it looked better to be 'some' kind of employed vs. not working at all! I would think that would be beneficial in MOST cases. Men, in general, 'like' to be productive.

[akmommy]

Up here it is not uncommon for people to work long hard hours all summer and fall and live of savings and unemployment through the winter, but I really don't see this as lazy or wrong. They and their employer pay into the fund so that money is there when the work is not. So much of the work here is seasonal that it's just a fact of life, but this is different then not looking for work because you can get away with collecting unemployment for a couple years (or however long they've extended it to now). At some point those on unemployment for extended benefits use up what they and their employer contributed and are living on someone else's dime. I have no problem with this for those actively seeking work and due to the economy just can't find anything that meets their needs, but not looking for work because you can get away with it is wrong.

 

Jennifer, I understand where your friend on public assistance is and if she is going to school so that one day she and her kids can be self sufficient then more power to her because a single mom with no real job skills is likely to be stuck in low paying jobs always dependent on some sort of assistance. I don't see this as lazy, I see her using the system in order to better herself and get on her feet so she can one day take care of her children herself.

Edited April 4, 2012 by akmommy

[4everHis]

Gently....I'm not a nation and there is no one character.

 

There are reasonable explanations for why people do this. For example, if my husband lost his job, taking a job that pays significantly less not only means we barely live, it ruins his chances of getting something better paying in the future. If you are an upper level whatever and take a job cleaning bathrooms that's not going to look good on your resume. And whenever you take a new job you don't get to take time off to go and look for a better job. So then you are stuck. So better to find the best possible job you can get.

 

I know that sounds unsavory to some people, but I think it's reasonable.

 

I don't disagree with you at all but at what point in unemployment do you have/need to 'lessen' expectations. I'm not saying that if you're upper management you start cleaning bathrooms as soon as possible, but is there a point where you say, "My 'job' isn't out there anymore." ?

[4everHis]

Gently....I'm not a nation and there is no one character.

 

 

Don't want to forget to say 'thank you' for the gently and for the bolded. I appreciate both. I'm not angry (hope it isn't coming across that way) just thinking out loud. :001_smile: Wondering how we can help/change things.

[OH_Homeschooler]

True. 10 an hour gets you enough for an apt w/money left over for transport, utilities and food for a small fam.

 

 

Really? $10/hour (pre-taxes)=about $268/week take-home pay for 40 hours of work, assuming a third of your paycheck goes toward taxes. $1072 a month (less than $15,000 a year) covers rent, food, other bills, gas, medical expenses, daycare and/or school expenses, for an entire family?

[4everHis]

Up here it is not uncommon for people to work long hard hours all summer and fall and live of savings and unemployment through the winter, but I really don't see this as lazy or wrong. They and their employer pay into the fund so that money is there when the work is not. So much of the work here is seasonal that it's just a fact of life, but this is different then not looking for work because you can get away with collecting unemployment for a couple years (or however long they've extended it to now). At some point those on unemployment for extended benefits use up what they and their employer contributed and are living on someone else's dime. I have no problem with this for those actively seeking work and due to the economy just can't find anything that meets their needs, but not looking for work because you can get away with it is wrong.

 

Jennifer, I understand where your friend on public assistance is and if she is going to school so that one day she and her kids can be self sufficient then more power to her because a single mom with no real job skills is likely to be stuck in low paying jobs always dependent on some sort of assistance. I don't see this as lazy, I see her using the system in order to better herself and get on her feet so she can one day take care of her children herself.

 

:iagree: on all counts. I applaud Jennifer's friend for trying to work herself out of the system.

[OH_Homeschooler]

1/3 of the paycheck doesn't go to taxes at this income level.

At this level, gov't services are available for families.

 

So then $10 per hour is not enough for a family to live on after all, without the family still needing government support...so even hard-working families need government support just to survive at a very minimal level.

[FaithManor]

Really? $10/hour (pre-taxes)=about $268/week take-home pay for 40 hours of work, assuming a third of your paycheck goes toward taxes. $1072 a month (less than $15,000 a year) covers rent, food, other bills, gas, medical expenses, daycare and/or school expenses, for an entire family?

 

 

Unless one chooses to live in places in Detroit in which is so beyond NOT safe that it staggers the imagination, there is no living on $10.00 an hour and public transportation in that city stinks. So, if you live in an even marginally safe neighborhood, you'll have to have a car. Given that car insurance for PLPD alone on a 10 year vehicle will still cost $1000.00 or more on a beater car, $10.00 an hr. isn't going to cut it when rent on an efficiency apartment is $350.00 a month and won't include heat in many, many cases though usually water is covered.

 

$350.00 Rent

A parent with two kids feeding her children nothing but canned tuna, hamburger helper, and boxed macaroni and cheese, peanut butter, and bread will still have a minimum $200.00 per month in food.

Running said used completely crappy car will still cost, if lucky enough to own it outright, $100.00 a month insurance and gas and maintenance of at least $100.00 and probably much more.

That's $750.00 right there on $1072.00 net income without anyone needing to go to the doctor, needing school shoes, needing to repair said piece of junk car, buying produce, milk, or anything else with some measure of nutrition, and if daycare is involved, well then that parent does not even net enough to pay bills and buy food. After school care in our area $3.00 an hr. at 1 hr. before school and 2 hr.s after, one hour of work just went to pay that each day...another $120.00 a month. A child not old enough to attend school will cost $25.00 - 50.00 per day and this person only makes $80.00.

 

Yeah, for some single 18 year old boy that lives with his parents or has three roomates crammed into an apartment in a not so great neighborhood, $10.00 an hr. will pay the bills. For a parent, nope.

 

In my experience, families in which the wage fell under $15.00 per hr., had to have both parents working full-time at those lower wages in order to raise a family in a very modest way. Nothing wrong with modest. But to suggest that in Detroit a non-single person could manage on $10.00 an hr. is unrealisitc. There are probably places in this country where that can be done. Small towns that have everything you need within walking distance, car insurance is cheap, you live within six miles of your employer and a tank of gas lasts a month, groceries are close by and very reasonably priced, and utilities are cheap...ie. a temperate environment so no need for high heating costs, then yes it might be doable.

 

Paramedics up our way make $12.12 - 18.00 on hr. depending on years of experience and they max out at $18.00 unless they have an instructor's license. Most of these represent two wage earners, small modest homes outside the city, or the singles have multiple roomates since a modest two-bedroom apartment that is in a marginally safe neighborhood runs $750.00 a month. Rents are very, very high because so many families were displaced during the mortgage scandals and high repossession debacle.

 

My dad's problem is that he can pay $16.00 an hr. and has people standing in line for the job, but he can't find anyone worth paying the wage to...I hate to say it but he's seeing mostly 18 year olds - 20 somethings that have graduated from our local - "We hand out high school diplomas simply because you came to school sometimes and didn't fall asleep in class" public school and the bulk of the applicants are illiterate. He will give them a two paragraph passage from a furnace brochure and they can't read it or understand it. He has a heating and air conditioning business and so basic math skills are a must and many of them could not do long division or add fractions with different denominators. So there is that issue as well. He could pay a living wage, but he can't find anyone who is actually capable of doing the work and it's too costly to pay them and also educate them so he can finally then train them on the technicalities of the job. It's a huge problem.

 

Faith

[OH_Homeschooler]

lol. The reason many jobs pay this low is that they have really high compensation in medical and retirement. I have neighbors that worked for 15 years and have been retired for 25+. They pay nothing in taxes except property and sales tax. To them, they are foxes that raided the henhouse..what a deal, work 15 years at $10 an hour, and you are set for life. Anything not spent on vacation goes to the grandkids; they'll transfer the house to the grandkids in time to meet medicare lookback and be eligible for low income assisted senior housing. They enjoy the fishing and traveling.

 

LOL right back at you. I suppose these kinds of jobs exist but most of the time when pay is low, so are benefits. I don't see how one would get to the point that they can own a house and raise a family on $10 an hour, even with medical benefits and retirement funds they'll eventually see.

Edited April 4, 2012 by OH_Homeschooler
That was Heigh Ho's quote before she removed it for some reason...

[FaithManor]

1/3 of the paycheck doesn't go to taxes at this income level.

At this level, gov't services are available for families.

 

 

Not in Michigan. Due to our state being close to bankruptcy a couple of years ago, services to low income families was very deeply cut. If you have a $10.00 an hr. job the only assistance you are eligible for is $5.00 per month state medical insurance for children 18 and under and nothing for the adults. Food stamps, housing assistance, etc. it was all cut and now the maximum amount of time any able bodied adult can collect any assistance has been cut to four years. This makes many people look at their unemployment paycheck as a time to get into different job training or go to college and not time to look for another low paying job. They've got four years to find something else and then it's homeless city for them unless friends or relatives can take them in.

 

It's not pretty and I was sickened when the cuts were made. But, there weren't any good choices and everything took those kinds of hits. Prison, jails, foster care, housing, transportation, highway funding - we have county roads as I am writing that are being turned back into gravel roads because there is no money to repave them - police, etc. and though for certain there is definitely waste in Lansing, a lot of that has been cut too because you can't waste what you don't have and Lansing doesn't have printing presses it can run night and day. The rubber met the road this past January 1st and this state is feeling it in a mighty way.

 

So, I'm sure that other states do provide assistance to those with low paying jobs, but Michigan is no longer doing so. Again, these things have to be taken state by state, some states are in really good shape. We are not! Add to this that the former mayor of Detroit is in prison for his shenanigans with city funds, and well, you get the idea that this is not a city to be attempting to live in on a sucky job.

 

Oh, and Flint needs another emergency manager and some extremist group is already making death threats if Lansing appoints another one. :glare:

 

The only reason to come to Michigan is if you have secured a high paying job with job security and you want to use that lovely situation to buy big, beautiful, palacial homes north of Ann Arbor and west of Detroit or around the Great Lakes for dirt cheap and enjoy the scenery because repossessions abound everywhere you look...even in the formerly untouchable economic haven, tourist trap of the world, Frankenmuth -the only place in Michigan that prior to 2007 had NEVER experienced anything that could even be described as an economic sneeze!

 

Faith

[Lisbeth]

I live near Detroit and I see a lot of this. I used to judge until I had a friend in this situation. She is a new single mom raising two kids on her own with no support from her ex. She is on every benefit the state will allow. She gets food and free health care and child care. Plus, she is taking college classes that the state is paying for. She has a job. If she ups her hours any more, she will lose the nearly all the benefits. Her job doesn't provide health insurance, so she'd lose that. She'd lose the money for her college classes, so she'd have to drop out. She would probably make enough for food, but probably not for child care. So, I guess, from the outside, she looks like one of these lazy people taking advantage of the system - unwilling to work more hours to get off state support. Those of us close to her know differently.

 

She HATES being on public assistance. But, she sees it as a short-term thing. When she finishes college, she'll be able to get a job that will pay her well enough to get off of it.

 

I bet the same is true for many in this story. They are not only receiving unemployment checks, but the state is probably also providing food assistance and health insurance. If they take a job at $10/hour, they cannot live on that, but they lose a lot of the other assistance.

 

Now, I'm sure there are those out there who are just taking advantage of the system. And, that's a problem. But, seeing my friend go through this, I do have more sympathy.

 

I understand most of this, but not college. Why should taxpayers foot the bill for her colkege? Many of them are struggling to pay back their own college loans.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Lisbeth
ph typo

[SKL]

Gently....I'm not a nation and there is no one character.

 

There are reasonable explanations for why people do this. For example, if my husband lost his job, taking a job that pays significantly less not only means we barely live, it ruins his chances of getting something better paying in the future. If you are an upper level whatever and take a job cleaning bathrooms that's not going to look good on your resume. And whenever you take a new job you don't get to take time off to go and look for a better job. So then you are stuck. So better to find the best possible job you can get.

 

See, this is the exact opposite of what I was taught and have experienced. Being already employed makes you much more attractive as a prospective employee. Employers look to hire people who are already working. People who have a clear track record of getting out of bed every morning, being able to work with others, etc. I was told at age 18 (I was between my 2nd and 3rd year of college) to go to the nearby city and "darken every doorstep" until I had a job. I got a (very blue-collar) job that day, the first of several that were "beneath" my education, and except for a few very short breaks during college, I've been employed for 27 years (so far). Obviously every time I changed jobs, I managed to find the time for a job search despite already working long hours.

 

I think this is one area where public assistance hurts. If people had no choice but to work or suffer real deprivation, they'd get a less-than-perfect job which would ultimately make them more employable as well as psychologically better off.

[Anne in CA]

I just finished the book Coming Apart by Charles Murray. It explains very much what most of us can see, and the future of America if we don't make some changes. It addresses this issue nearly completely, from the many sides that there are.

[OH_Homeschooler]

Sweat equity and house handed down from family is how it is done. Or one buys an older home and rents out part of it.

 

How lovely for those who get houses handed to them. Of course, poverty tends to run in families so chances are, parents didn't own homes either. And I don't know how you can even buy an older home on $10/hour. Would you have any credit rating? Who would give you a mortgage, even if you promised to find a renter.

 

I would love to have a discussion with these people you know! I could sure use some tips because we live in a relatively inexpensive part of the country, make decent money, are pretty darn frugal, and still worry about bills month to month. We must be doing something wrong. How can DH get one of those miracle jobs?

[Jennifer in MI]

I understand most of this, but not college. Why should taxpayers foot the bill for her colkege? Many of them are struggling to pay back their own college loans.

 

Because in four years, my friend will have the capability to earn a living wage as a social worker, thus taking her off the government payrolls.

 

Without it, my friend would be stuck in jobs earning $8/hour. And, we've all seen others on this thread work out the numbers. She would have a really hard time and need gov't assistance for a lot longer if they didn't help pay for her education.

[SKL]

Not in Michigan. Due to our state being close to bankruptcy a couple of years ago, services to low income families was very deeply cut. If you have a $10.00 an hr. job the only assistance you are eligible for is $5.00 per month state medical insurance for children 18 and under and nothing for the adults. Food stamps, housing assistance, etc. it was all cut and now the maximum amount of time any able bodied adult can collect any assistance has been cut to four years. This makes many people look at their unemployment paycheck as a time to get into different job training or go to college and not time to look for another low paying job. They've got four years to find something else and then it's homeless city for them unless friends or relatives can take them in.

 

Wow - four years is a long time for an able-bodied adult to collect assistance.

 

There are so many people, even today, who work and go to school and don't collect assistance.

 

Maybe it's a Detroit thing - I could totally see that. That's where it goes back to too much dependence on the US-based, union-driven automotive industry.

 

Myself, I like the idea of sharing (at the individual / family level) to help make ends meet, but it seems I'm in the minority on that.

[SKL]

I've been living on less than $400/week all my life. In/near a city very like Detroit.

 

Besides, why are we talking like every person on unemployment is supporting a family? Many if not most are individuals who could indeed live on $10/hr if they had to. The guy in the article wouldn't be complaining if those folks were out looking for jobs.

[Scuff]

I don't know, Faith. I know low income people who have been on assistance longer than 4 years and they haven't been cut off. Food stamps and such. And our public transportation isn't much compared to Other cities, but if you live within the bus boundries, it's quite sufficient. We could live eithout a car if we had to. It wouldn't be fun and it would limit the things we do in the outer suburbs. But we could do it. One of the reasons we do well with only one car is dh's ability to take the bus to work. I can't imagine sustaining a family on $10/hour. But I'm not sure it's as bleak as you make it sound. And We live in a lower income area where at least 3-4 houses on each block are abandoned and gutted and/or burnt out and our house is worth about the same as our van. (totalled, if you consider needed repairs) So i have no illusion that things are sunshine and roses.

 

Eta- actually, you're pretty rural, aren't you? Maybe that plays into our different perspectives. The amount of cheap/free things available here is astounding. They hand our free lunches all summer long, gloves and coats in the fall, school suplkrs, including backpacks at the end of summer, ect. I know that's not enought o survive, but there iss help out there.

[FaithManor]

Eta- actually, you're pretty rural, aren't you? Maybe that plays into our different perspectives. The amount of cheap/free things available here is astounding. They hand our free lunches all summer long, gloves and coats in the fall, school suplkrs, including backpacks at the end of summer, ect. I know that's not enought o survive, but there iss help out there.

 

 

Well it probably is a matter of perspective. Rents are very, very high here because so many families were displaced due to repossession rates and the landlords can get high prices - our county still sports a nearly 20% unemployement rate if you count the people whose unemployment benefits ran out but still haven't found a job and the state is no longer counting them. 30 somethings with degrees are bagging groceries at VG's supermarket...forget finding your teenager a job. Heat on even a modest apartment is more than $150.00 per month and that's if you live in a town with natural gas. Out our way it's fuel oil or propane and generally no one heats any measure of house or apartment on propane for less than $250.00 a month and worse on fuel oil. Most homes run $350.00 for heat from November through March. We are six miles from a grocery store and no public transport. Most of the county residents are not walking distance to pharmacies, grocery stores, doctors, etc.

 

So, yes, I see people who literally cannot find a roof to rent, a car to drive, insurance to pay on that vehicle, food to eat, and heat and electric to say nothing of a phone and decent clothes to wear for work on $10.00 per hour. I've always assumed that if ultilities and rents were this much in rural areas, they were worse in the cities. But, maybe things are cheaper in Detroit. As for my county, we do not even have public transportation. There is one handicap accessible van that can be scheduled to pick up disabled individuals for hospital/doctor office/pharmacy runs or grocery stores...those are the only places it runs to and you have to give five days notice to get an appointment. In dd's small city, the ambulance gets used for taxi service to and from dialysis centers and outpatient therapy clinics because there isn't any public transport and though there are some taxi's, state medical insurance has never chartered with them for service which would be A LOT CHEAPER FOR THE TAXPAYERS if they did. She seriously does not understand why this is not done even though her EMS company has suggested this many times.

 

Yes, there was an article in our county newspaper about the vote in Lansing to limit public assistance to four years...some people will be grandfathered in, however, others will not. I do think the legislation doesn't take effect until 2013. Don't quote me on that because I'm going on memory here. It seems like a long time, but on the other hand, if you live in our county, you will see families on the street because we do not have a homeless shelter much less a soup kitchen. Our church does some grocery help and we've been known to fill the propane tank on campers for families trying to live the winter in some abandoned pop-up camper (yes, that's right....pop-up campers - seen this with three families, all with kids...all with moms and dad with degrees who didn't have family to take them in and one dad had applied for more than 100 jobs and never got so much as an interview.)

 

It's bad here so it probably does very much cloud my judgment on who can live on $10.00 an hr. It can't be done in the winter here unless the person is living in a car or with relatives. That's a nice idea, however, you'd be surprised by the number of people I've met who would see their grandchildren homeless or in foster care before they'd even consider letting an adult child move home. I don't know what to think because I believe multi-generational homes may be very necessary in the future, but the retired generation in our area is one that believes they should not have to do this. My brother will not, under any circumstances, allow any of his children to live at home for any reason after the age of 18...his 22 year old daughter and two year old granddaughter would be homeless and hungry if dh and I didn't help...other grandparents are dead and father of baby is low income and only has to pay $150.00 per month child support. She waits tables at three restaurants in order to share an apartment with two other girls who don't mind living with the baby and what is keeping her afloat is WIC which will phase out when the little one is five (plus our money). My niece went and had her tubes tied while she still had state medical insurance - again she's 22 and a good mother, though she was really in no financial position to become a mother - because she feels pretty hopeless. DD tried to convince her to go for paramedic training because the over-time is good. But as it turns out, dear niece is not cut out for the medical profession...she seriously cannot handle blood, body fluids, and needles no matter how she tries to mind-over-matter it and well, from what we've seen, this profession is a calling not a job! On top of which there is no tuition assistance and it's $5800.00 plus a lot of costs to commute for internships and externships. It wasn't a practical option for her.

 

Anyway, perspective is everything and you are right, mine is much more bleak because of what we see locally.

 

Faith

[stripe]

What does it say about our character as a nation that we bail out banks and then they won't give loans to people?

 

What does it say about us that we're quick to point fingers at the poor but not help them, much less point fingers at the rich?

 

Why do we assume those who are poor could, with minimal effort, be Warren Buffet? Why do regular people stand in solidarity with the super rich? Why do we assume someone who is financially poor is also morally bankrupt?

[momma2three]

What does it say about our character as a nation that we bail out banks and then they won't give loans to people?

 

What does it say about us that we're quick to point fingers at the poor but not help them, much less point fingers at the rich?

 

Why do we assume those who are poor could, with minimal effort, be Warren Buffet? Why do regular people stand in solidarity with the super rich? Why do we assume someone who is financially poor is also morally bankrupt?

 

:iagree:

 

Wow, I wish I could have a job that pays $10 an hour and yet I retire at age 45 owning a McMansion. Can we have some more specifics about these mysterious career tracks? Because, seriously, sign me up!

[OH_Homeschooler]

I've been living on less than $400/week all my life. In/near a city very like Detroit.

 

Besides, why are we talking like every person on unemployment is supporting a family? Many if not most are individuals who could indeed live on $10/hr if they had to. The guy in the article wouldn't be complaining if those folks were out looking for jobs.

 

I was talking about a family because the post I responded to red to said $10 per hour is enough to support a small family.

[4everHis]

No meals at school? Or clothing from social services?

 

We're still doing summer feeding stations here.

 

I know they do 2 meals a day at the schools here, free for every child (even if you homeschool) this runs through most of the summer too. They run buses just for the meals in the summer.

[GWOB]

What does it say about our character as a nation that we bail out banks and then they won't give loans to people?

 

What does it say about us that we're quick to point fingers at the poor but not help them, much less point fingers at the rich?

 

Why do we assume those who are poor could, with minimal effort, be Warren Buffet? Why do regular people stand in solidarity with the super rich? Why do we assume someone who is financially poor is also morally bankrupt?

 

:iagree:

[4everHis]

What does it say about our character as a nation that we bail out banks and then they won't give loans to people?

 

What does it say about us that we're quick to point fingers at the poor but not help them, much less point fingers at the rich?

 

Why do we assume those who are poor could, with minimal effort, be Warren Buffet? Why do regular people stand in solidarity with the super rich? Why do we assume someone who is financially poor is also morally bankrupt?

 

nm:001_huh:

[BrookValley.]

What does it say about our character as a nation that we bail out banks and then they won't give loans to people?

 

What does it say about us that we're quick to point fingers at the poor but not help them, much less point fingers at the rich?

 

Why do we assume those who are poor could, with minimal effort, be Warren Buffet? Why do regular people stand in solidarity with the super rich? Why do we assume someone who is financially poor is also morally bankrupt?

 

:iagree:

[Caitilin]

What does it say about our character as a nation that we bail out banks and then they won't give loans to people?

 

What does it say about us that we're quick to point fingers at the poor but not help them, much less point fingers at the rich?

 

Why do we assume those who are poor could, with minimal effort, be Warren Buffet? Why do regular people stand in solidarity with the super rich? Why do we assume someone who is financially poor is also morally bankrupt?

 

Thank-you. I agree.

[4everHis]

What does it say about our character as a nation that we bail out banks and then they won't give loans to people?

 

What does it say about us that we're quick to point fingers at the poor but not help them, much less point fingers at the rich?

 

Why do we assume those who are poor could, with minimal effort, be Warren Buffet? Why do regular people stand in solidarity with the super rich? Why do we assume someone who is financially poor is also morally bankrupt?

 

The original post was about people who would turn down a paying job to live on assistance, in many cases because they could make more that way. It was about individuals. . . . hence my madness at myself for lumping individuals into 'nation.' I would like to retract that part of the title and can't.

 

I didn't see in any response where someone thought that with minimal effort you could go from poor to WB. I didn't see a response that showed anyone standing in solidarity with the super rich. I didn't see any response that suggested the financially poor are also morally bankrupt.

 

I'm sorry you came away with that.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

What does it say about our character as a nation that we bail out banks and then they won't give loans to people?

 

What does it say about us that we're quick to point fingers at the poor but not help them, much less point fingers at the rich?

 

Why do we assume those who are poor could, with minimal effort, be Warren Buffet? Why do regular people stand in solidarity with the super rich? Why do we assume someone who is financially poor is also morally bankrupt?

 

:iagree:

 

Oil companies have made record profits in recent years and show up in front of Congress asking for subsidies.

Yet the single mother struggling to provide for her family and getting assistance is what is wrong with the country?

Yeah, not so much.

[4everHis]

:iagree:

 

Oil companies have made record profits in recent years and show up in front of Congress asking for subsidies.

Yet the single mother struggling to provide for her family and getting assistance is what is wrong with the country?

Yeah, not so much.

 

I don't think anyone thinks that single mom's struggling to provide for their families, even if that means getting assistance, is what is wrong with this country.

[SKL]

I didn't see in any response where someone thought that with minimal effort you could go from poor to WB. I didn't see a response that showed anyone standing in solidarity with the super rich. I didn't see any response that suggested the financially poor are also morally bankrupt.

:iagree:

 

I was wondering where all that came from. I think people who say many can live on $10/hr etc. are saying so based on personal experience.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

:iagree:

 

I was wondering where all that came from. I think people who say many can live on $10/hr etc. are saying so based on personal experience.

 

 

Cost of living varies drastically across the nation. A family of 4 would struggle anywhere in the U.S. with one wage earner at $10. In some areas (New York), it would be impossible without significant government assistance.

[momma2three]

Cost of living varies drastically across the nation. A family of 4 would struggle anywhere in the U.S. with one wage earner at $10. In some areas (New York), it would be impossible without significant government assistance.

 

Yup. I'm in Boston, and no way could anyone do this. I'm not entirely convinced it's possible even in Detroit. Even with 2 wage earners at $10 an hour. Even with free babysitting offered by a friend or family member: and many people do not have access to that anyway. That is just plain not much money. It's pretty appalling to me if that is actually the going rate for any sort of skilled labor in the US. Something else I find hard to believe. If so many people are refusing to take a job with the particular employer in the article, it seems that the common theme would be the employer.

[BrookValley.]

The original post was about people who would turn down a paying job to live on assistance, in many cases because they could make more that way. It was about individuals. . . . hence my madness at myself for lumping individuals into 'nation.' I would like to retract that part of the title and can't.

 

I didn't see in any response where someone thought that with minimal effort you could go from poor to WB. I didn't see a response that showed anyone standing in solidarity with the super rich. I didn't see any response that suggested the financially poor are also morally bankrupt.

 

I'm sorry you came away with that.

 

Not speaking for the original poster of that comment, but I think it just points to the absurdity of, well, a lot of things. It's a long story, but my family has been in that situation (where getting assistance made more sense than taking certain jobs). It was a really awful situation. My husband, an educated professional, was laid of from his job of more than 15 years. He wanted to work, and was more than willing to take a job making much less than a career in his chosen field. We're frugal, we could have made it happen financially. But a lot of those jobs don't offer benefits. Going without health insurance was a scary, scary thing for us. And between the two of us, we couldn't have justified child care (even going back to work full time at my job--a good, decent-paying job--child care would have taken more than half of my bring-home pay). So he received unemployment while he searched for another job. It took more than 6 months. There are plenty more details that I won't bore you with, but long story short, it made no sense to take a $12 per hour job. We couldn't have made it. And like I said, we're pretty frugal people.

 

Personally, I'd love nothing more than to see my tax dollars go to pay for education, child care, and health care. That darn sure makes a lot more sense to me than paying for someone to remain on unemployment because then they don't have to worry about their child having health insurance or their chronically ill spouse not being covered (as was our case).

[Rivka]

I'm kind of amazed that this story made it onto the news. Don't you usually have to be able to give at least three examples to call something a "trend?"

 

If no one wants to work for a particular employer, in a market in which we know that many, many people need jobs, there is probably a good reason. Maybe it is because every single qualified jobseeker in the Detroit area is lazy and wants to mooch off public assistance, or maybe it's because this guy is a nightmare to work for in ways that quickly become obvious to applicants.

 

By the way, isn't the invisible hand of the market supposed to deal with situations like this? If he can't find someone to work for him at the wage he is willing to pay, why hasn't he sweetened the offer any? You can't just sit back and expect that qualified employees will be handed to you!

[momma2three]

I'm kind of amazed that this story made it onto the news. Don't you usually have to be able to give at least three examples to call something a "trend?"

 

If no one wants to work for a particular employer, in a market in which we know that many, many people need jobs, there is probably a good reason. Maybe it is because every single qualified jobseeker in the Detroit area is lazy and wants to mooch off public assistance, or maybe it's because this guy is a nightmare to work for in ways that quickly become obvious to applicants.

 

By the way, isn't the invisible hand of the market supposed to deal with situations like this? If he can't find someone to work for him at the wage he is willing to pay, why hasn't he sweetened the offer any? You can't just sit back and expect that qualified employees will be handed to you!

 

LOL, yeah, that was my takeaway too. If people are even coming in to interviews and then turning down the job... um, that's a red flag that it's not that nobody wants to work, it's that nobody wants to work for this guy.

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Yup. I'm in Boston, and no way could anyone do this. I'm not entirely convinced it's possible even in Detroit. Even with 2 wage earners at $10 an hour. Even with free babysitting offered by a friend or family member: and many people do not have access to that anyway. That is just plain not much money. It's pretty appalling to me if that is actually the going rate for any sort of skilled labor in the US. Something else I find hard to believe. If so many people are refusing to take a job with the particular employer in the article, it seems that the common theme would be the employer.

 

 

Yeah, just running some basic numbers, with no childcare costs and not buying health insurance for the family, a family of four making $40,000/year in metro Atlanta can make it, but it would very, very tough. They would also have no wiggle room in the event of sickness or other accidents.