What is the deal with RFK's son and the maternity ward?

[Nakia]

I'm so sorry you had to experience that, Nakia. How terrible. Are you allowed to say how the baby suffocated? Like was it due to blankets? Pillows? The mother? It's okay if you can't say.

 

I hear stuff like that and start thinking it's a bad idea to co-sleep, but numerous studies say it's safe. I just don't know.

 

Thank you for that. I can't say any specifics about that case.

 

I have no idea what happened in the hospital case cited above. Don't forget many women may be recovering from the use of meds for labor and delivery, may be taking higher potency pain meds, they may be obese, they may be sleep-deprived, etc. Those things are all thought to increase cosleeping related deaths. I can understand hospitals having a policy on no cosleeping, but I also think a responsible and informed parent can make a decision to cosleep.

 

The vast majority of women on the postpartum floor are obese, taking narcotics, and sleep deprived.

[Nakia]

Yes, there are other options, but most women wouldn't know they couldn't sleep with their baby until they were already there. Checking out at that point might not be feasible.

 

Also, even you admit you broke the rules about eating and drinking. Why is that rule ok to break but not others? The point is, in the end, you chose what you did, not the hospital. They cover their butt with the rules, and you do what you want.

 

I did "break the rule" about eating and drinking. And I regretted it, but it didn't harm anyone but me. I am honestly not trying to argue, but it's not just about covering our butts. It's about trying to prevent another mother from having to bury her baby. You might have a different opinion if you had been in the room that night.

 

Oh, btw, the parents are told about the rule about co-sleeping on their hospital tour, if they choose to take one.

[Momof3littles]

I did "break the rule" about eating and drinking. And I regretted it, but it didn't harm anyone but me. I am honestly not trying to argue, but it's not just about covering our butts. It's about trying to prevent another mother from having to bury her baby. You might have a different opinion if you had been in the room that night.

 

Oh, btw, the parents are told about the rule about co-sleeping on their hospital tour, if they choose to take one.

But if a mom has educated herself and chooses to cosleep, isn't on narcotics, isn't obese, etc. what are they going to do if she doesn't want to comply? Call CPS? I mean, the policy is there for a reason, and I totally understand the liability concerns. Clearly, you have every right to document that the mom is not complying with your policy. However, what can you really do? Forcibly remove the infant? Call CPS? You don't get moms that balk at the policy and do what they want to anyway? I'm just curious what exactly happens to the non-compliant mothers.

[Jean in Newcastle]

But if a mom has educated herself and chooses to cosleep, isn't on narcotics, isn't obese, etc. what are they going to do if she doesn't want to comply? Call CPS? I mean, the policy is there for a reason, and I totally understand the liability concerns. Clearly, you have every right to document that the mom is not complying with your policy. However, what can you really do? Forcibly remove the infant? Call CPS? You don't get moms that balk at the policy and do what they want to anyway? I'm just curious what exactly happens to the non-compliant mothers.

 

How long are you in the hospital? Two nights? One? I can understand a mother drawing a line in the same over certain things but not others. Some things really don't need to be made a big deal over.

[Renthead Mommy]

I'm so sorry you had to experience that, Nakia. How terrible. Are you allowed to say how the baby suffocated? Like was it due to blankets? Pillows? The mother? It's okay if you can't say.

 

I hear stuff like that and start thinking it's a bad idea to co-sleep, but numerous studies say it's safe. I just don't know.

 

I think the way people sleep in a hospital bed is often VERY different from how you sleep in a regular bed. Think about it, it's a narrower bed, and even if you only have a double bed at home, that single bed feels different. Also you normally have the head adjusted up in a hospital bed. Plus there is the issue of rails and not having your own pillows... Added to the having just spit out a human being and all that entails....

 

I was never a fan of co sleeping because it just wasn't comfortable and never worked right for us. I get that it works great for some people and we did do while vacationing. (Where you usually have at least a queen if not king bed.) But I totally understand how it may not work well in a hospital bed situation. Especially when you add in pregnancy weight gain, drugs, exhustation to my already mentioned bed/sleeping issues. I'm actually surprised we haven't heard of more cases like this in hospitals.

 

I also suspect this was not a case of baby sleeping on mom's chest, or cuddled in an elbow while nursing, but more of a tucked into an armpit while mom is sleeping on her side type situation (probably with head of bed tilted up). Add all the bed issues to that along with the weight, drugs, exhustation and I can see where it could easily go bad.

[Nakia]

But if a mom has educated herself and chooses to cosleep, isn't on narcotics, isn't obese, etc. what are they going to do if she doesn't want to comply? Call CPS? I mean, the policy is there for a reason, and I totally understand the liability concerns. Clearly, you have every right to document that the mom is not complying with your policy. However, what can you really do? Forcibly remove the infant? Call CPS? You don't get moms that balk at the policy and do what they want to anyway? I'm just curious what exactly happens to the non-compliant mothers.

 

Honestly, it's not been an issue. Most moms are willing to accept it for the very reason that Jean stated below. They are in the hospital a short time and it's for safety reasons. It's not because anyone's trying to be mean or micromanage mothers. IF it became an issue, our manager and the pediatrician would be contacted, and they would handle it from there. I have no idea what would come of that.

 

How long are you in the hospital? Two nights? One? I can understand a mother drawing a line in the same over certain things but not others. Some things really don't need to be made a big deal over.

[Guest]

Good points, Renthead Mommy. I do recall thinking it was easier and more comfortable for our babies to just sleep in the bassinet because those bed were so small (and like you said tilted up). Hospital beds definitely do not seem as safe as regular beds... too many issues with them.

[Renthead Mommy]

But if a mom has educated herself and chooses to cosleep, isn't on narcotics, isn't obese, etc. what are they going to do if she doesn't want to comply? Call CPS? I mean, the policy is there for a reason, and I totally understand the liability concerns. Clearly, you have every right to document that the mom is not complying with your policy. However, what can you really do? Forcibly remove the infant? Call CPS? You don't get moms that balk at the policy and do what they want to anyway? I'm just curious what exactly happens to the non-compliant mothers.

 

Basically things like this come down to this is our policy. If you choice to ignore our policy, YOU can not hold US responsible. I can see the rule coming from a legal stand point. The legal department said this is the new policy. If anything like this happens again, we are protected. They can't sue us because they chose to ignore our policy.

 

In the grand scheme of things, it is a tragic end. But doctors, nurses and parents deal with human lives, while laywers deal with the law and the financial outcomes of issues. As moms/nurses it is hard to see the other side, but it still has to be there.

[MariannNOVA]

How long are you in the hospital? Two nights? One? I can understand a mother drawing a line in the same over certain things but not others. Some things really don't need to be made a big deal over.

 

:iagree:

[kitten18]

How long are you in the hospital? Two nights? One? I can understand a mother drawing a line in the same over certain things but not others. Some things really don't need to be made a big deal over.

I was in the hospital for 30 hours (1 night) with DS. It wasn't that big of a deal to put him in the bassinet to sleep. We were both restless and slept very little that night anyway. I sweat like a pig and cannot sleep on those rubber beds.

[cindergretta]

Again, i understand the rules. I do. I even agree with them. But you can't reach out to take someone's kid from them and not expect an instinctual reaction. I'm not saying the nurses were wrong to try to stop him. I'm saying they were wrong to make it a physical interaction by trying to bar the way physically and grab the baby. And again, I agree the rules have a purpose. But I do not give up rights as a parent when I walk into a building. I just don't. Should he have told someone what he was doing? Yes, of course. But legally at the end of the day it is his kid and he can take it where ever the heck he wants to. There is a difference between rules of a company and the laws of the country.

 

But how does anyone know that he is the father? How does anyone know that he isn't stealing the baby? With his trying to leave with the baby without saying word one to anyone, everyone *has* to go on high alert and assume the worst lest he be stealing a Kennedy, or any other *equally special and important* baby.

 

If it were my baby and someone tried to walk off with him/her, (and I am in my bed, maybe sleeping off pain meds and a long labour) than I hope like h*ll someone will try to stop this person *immediately* and ask questions later. This isn't a situation where you can let it ride and investigate later. It has to be dealt with like an emergency because this father couldn't be bothered to follow a simple procedure put in place for the safety and protection of all the babies on the floor.

[Momof3littles]

How long are you in the hospital? Two nights? One? I can understand a mother drawing a line in the same over certain things but not others. Some things really don't need to be made a big deal over.

I stayed two nights with the only hospital birth I had. My little one did NOT want to sleep in the bassinet. And since I was nursing I would doze a bit with him in arms. I could have let my baby cry in the bassinet I suppose.

 

In my case, there was no hospital policy prohibiting colseeping. I pretty much never saw the nursing staff other than the periodic wakeups to check my blood pressure and temp and then the baby's. We roomed in, and they basically left us totally alone another than the periodic temp and BP checks.

 

So I didn't break any policies, but I'm just pointing out that as a mom who researched cosleeping before going to the hospital, I feel I made a safe decision for my own situation. That doesn't mean it is right for everyone. My baby had no interest in staying in the bassinet. He would stare at me, start grunting, escalate to yelling, until he was picked up. Nonstop.

 

eta: my subsequent births were at a FSBC and then a HB. I did not get much rest at all in the hospital. Just as I would fall asleep after nursing my newborn, someone would come in to check my temp, BP, etc. And then they'd tell me in 20 mins someone else would be in to check the baby. So I'd end up staying awake, and then they wouldn't come for an hour. And so on and so on. I was awakened on my last day after a tiring night in the hospital by the hospital's photographer, who proceeded to pull up my blinds at 7 am. I am not nurse-bashing, I totally respect nurses and worked in healthcare in a different capacity pre-kids. I found recovering in the hospital a difficult experience, which was one reason among many that I chose different options in my subsequent births.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Momof3littles

[Jean in Newcastle]

I stayed two nights with the only hospital birth I had. My little one did NOT want to sleep in the bassinet. And since I was nursing I would doze a bit with him in arms. I could have let my baby cry in the bassinet I suppose.

 

In my case, there was no hospital policy prohibiting colseeping. I pretty much never saw the nursing staff other than the periodic wakeups to check my blood pressure and temp and then the baby's. We roomed in, and they basically left us totally alone another than the periodic temp and BP checks.

 

So I didn't break any policies, but I'm just pointing out that as a mom who researched cosleeping before going to the hospital, I feel I made a safe decision for my own situation. That doesn't mean it is right for everyone. My baby had no interest in staying in the bassinet. He would stare at me, start grunting, escalate to yelling, until he was picked up. Nonstop.

 

eta: my subsequent births were at a FSBC and then a HB. I did not get much rest at all in the hospital. Just as I would fall asleep after nursing my newborn, someone would come in to check my temp, BP, etc. And then they'd tell me in 20 mins someone else would be in to check the baby. So I'd end up staying awake, and then they wouldn't come for an hour. And so on and so on. I was awakened on my last day after a tiring night in the hospital by the hospital's photographer, who proceeded to pull up my blinds at 7 am. I am not nurse-bashing, I totally respect nurses and worked in healthcare in a different capacity pre-kids. I found recovering in the hospital a difficult experience, which was one reason among many that I chose different options in my subsequent births.

 

As Nakia pointed out, the nurses are way too busy to be hyperconcerned or hypervigilant as to whether someone dozes off with a baby in their arms. If they happen to come in for one of their checks though, I bet that they gently suggest that the mom allows them to put the sleeping baby in the bassinet so that mom can rest some more. I'm sure it is the same of other issues.

 

Hospitals are notorious for being bad places to get a good night's sleep. If I hadn't had extremely high risk pregnancies then I would have chosen other options for my births too.;) But being there for one night for both of my hospital births, while uncomfortable, was soon forgotten in the thousands of nights we had at home. I gave up the comfort of home and control over more things for the (relative) safety of the hospital and access to emergency procedures.

 

I did have one nurse overrule me and give my ds a bottle of formula when he was a newborn. I complained to the charge nurse but really there isn't much to do about it after the fact. It didn't affect the thousands of hours spent nursing him at home though.;)

 

RFK's son is (depending on how hands on he is as a dad) going to have thousands of walks with his little one. Having to put off one walk wasn't going to hurt him or the baby.

[Spy Car]

I stayed two nights with the only hospital birth I had. My little one did NOT want to sleep in the bassinet. And since I was nursing I would doze a bit with him in arms. I could have let my baby cry in the bassinet I suppose.

 

In my case, there was no hospital policy prohibiting colseeping. I pretty much never saw the nursing staff other than the periodic wakeups to check my blood pressure and temp and then the baby's. We roomed in, and they basically left us totally alone another than the periodic temp and BP checks.

 

So I didn't break any policies, but I'm just pointing out that as a mom who researched cosleeping before going to the hospital, I feel I made a safe decision for my own situation. That doesn't mean it is right for everyone. My baby had no interest in staying in the bassinet. He would stare at me, start grunting, escalate to yelling, until he was picked up. Nonstop.

 

eta: my subsequent births were at a FSBC and then a HB. I did not get much rest at all in the hospital. Just as I would fall asleep after nursing my newborn, someone would come in to check my temp, BP, etc. And then they'd tell me in 20 mins someone else would be in to check the baby. So I'd end up staying awake, and then they wouldn't come for an hour. And so on and so on. I was awakened on my last day after a tiring night in the hospital by the hospital's photographer, who proceeded to pull up my blinds at 7 am. I am not nurse-bashing, I totally respect nurses and worked in healthcare in a different capacity pre-kids. I found recovering in the hospital a difficult experience, which was one reason among many that I chose different options in my subsequent births.

 

The first night in the hospital three of us (Mom, baby, and me) "slept" in a tiny hospital bed. A "single" would have been luxerious. But none of us would have missed that for the world. We really didn't see our newborn sleeping in a plastic aquarium.

 

Bill

[TxMama]

When I watched that video I see a hospital that needs to revamp their infant security system. No nurse should be put in that position.

 

I am thankful that I work at a hospital that has a very clearly defined infant abduction policy. All exits from all areas that the babies are located have alarms. No one can leave the area without being "buzzed" out. A person cannot leave the area without setting off an alarm. As a nurse, I am not to physically stop anyone from leaving the area with a baby. I can follow them and report their location. I set off the "baby pink" alarm which shuts down the entire hospital. This would be very unpleasant. Can you imagine that you were in a hospital with your month old and getting stopped and questioned by hospital security because some dad decided to take his newborn for fresh air? Security personal ( who are all former police officers) are the ones who will physically stop anyone travelling outside the secured areas with an infant. I can not imagine that scenerio playing out especially well either.

 

All nursery nurses will be watching how this plays out. I'm disappointed about the ER doc/family friend who threw those nurses under the bus. Everyone at my hospital knows the infant abduction policy and knows that the dad would not be allowed to leave the unit with his child in his arms.

 

BTW, we also have the policy that newborns are transported in bassinets(only be certain persons---dad/moms do not transport their infants outside the secured areas) and no co-sleeping.

[phathui5]

Sounds like someone should've had a homebirth.

 

And anger management classes. :001_huh:

 

Yup.

[Momof3littles]

The first night in the hospital three of us (Mom, baby, and me) "slept" in a tiny hospital bed. A "single" would have been luxerious. But none of us would have missed that for the world. We really didn't see our newborn sleeping in a plastic aquarium.

 

Bill

LOL, we did the same, actually. We had a private room and DH was permitted to stay. The pull out for him was broken, so I shared the bed with him. DS1 slept with us too :) It brings back good memories.

 

In terms of dozing vs. sleeping, my newborn was nursing every 2-3 hours start to start, and nursing for 20-40 mins per side or longer. So sleeping in arms *was* our sleeping. It was like that all night long.

[Rivka]

The night my son was born, I cranked the hospital bed up until I was almost sitting, built a nest of pillows, including a Boppy, to support my arms and the baby, and slept lightly with him in my arms. (There was no way he could have slipped down under the pillows. If a nurse came in to check on us, we looked like I was sitting up to nurse him. Which I more or less was most of the night anyway. :D

 

Sometime between my first and second birth, my hospital introduced a wonderful new policy. You could choose to have a "do not disturb" sign put on your room door. If you didn't have the sign, the nurses made hourly checks. If you did have the sign, they came much less often - and the photographer, chaplain, nurse supervisor, etc. etc. etc., didn't come at all.

[cathmom]

Nearly 16 years ago, after my second dc was born, I tried to take a walk in the hallway with my older dc, right outside my room, my baby in my arms, and was told to go back into my room. The baby had to be in the bassinet. This is nothing new and is for the hospital's own protection.

 

The rule I really thought was stupid was that my older dc could be in my room all day long but couldn't stay overnight, even with my dh also staying - because hospital germs only get people sick at night, don't you know?

[BakersDozen]

The rule I really thought was stupid was that my older dc could be in my room all day long but couldn't stay over

This policy is in place in the hospitals I've delivered in not because of germs but because of noise. I must say I was extremely grateful for this rule with my last delivery because it meant the out of control toddler in the room next door finally went home. Unfortunately, visiting hours didn't end until 9pm so I had to listen to him until then. :glare:

[cathmom]

This policy is in place in the hospitals I've delivered in not because of germs but because of noise. I must say I was extremely grateful for this rule with my last delivery because it meant the out of control toddler in the room next door finally went home. Unfortunately, visiting hours didn't end until 9pm so I had to listen to him until then. :glare:

 

My son was 6 1/2 and wouldn't have made any noise, but I see your point. But it was very inconvenient for us, as it meant that my dh had to go home the second night I was in the hospital, which meant I was alone with the baby. We would have preferred to be all together in my private room. Oh, and germs was the reason I was given by the hospital staff.

[Jean in Newcastle]

My son was 6 1/2 and wouldn't have made any noise, but I see your point. But it was very inconvenient for us, as it meant that my dh had to go home the second night I was in the hospital, which meant I was alone with the baby. We would have preferred to be all together in my private room. Oh, and germs was the reason I was given by the hospital staff.

 

I think they need a blanket explanation (like germs) because people are not going to accept a more subjective explanation. Esp. if they make it a policy to only ask the families with noisy kids to leave.

[cathmom]

I think they need a blanket explanation (like germs) because people are not going to accept a more subjective explanation. Esp. if they make it a policy to only ask the families with noisy kids to leave.

 

 

Well I guess they should just ask all those noisy babies to leave too! :D

[Jean in Newcastle]

Well I guess they should just ask all those noisy babies to leave too! :D

 

Well you know, I got in "trouble" because my newborn (ds14) was colicky right from birth and cried and cried. The nurses get coming in to try to get me to get him calm. And while someone them were genuinely helpful, some really were more interested in just getting the sound to stop! (Perhaps they were being pressured by patients in the next rooms.) I was so glad when I could go home.

[LucyStoner]

The first night in the hospital three of us (Mom, baby, and me) "slept" in a tiny hospital bed. A "single" would have been luxerious. But none of us would have missed that for the world. We really didn't see our newborn sleeping in a plastic aquarium.

 

This was us after the birth of our younger son at a very nice hospital birth center. The beds they had were generously sized so that couples could do that. After the birth of my older son, he was in the NICU and my husband slept in a strange bed they had that was basically a window seat. I am sure at that hospital there was a policy against the baby sleeping with mom but it was irrelevant to us (my son stayed in the NICU longer than I stayed after my c-section).

[celticmom]

And although I need to know what happened, I don't know the circumstances, I will say that I don't give a figs rear end what the rules of the hospital are. At the end of the day it is my kid, and I can carry them if I want to. Rules are not laws. And a hospital is not a kingdom unto itself, no matter how much it thinks it is.

 

:iagree:I am not a particular fan of the Kennedys but I would be inclined to side with just about anyone against L&D/Maternity nurses.

[LucyStoner]

Well you know, I got in "trouble" because my newborn (ds14) was colicky right from birth and cried and cried. The nurses get coming in to try to get me to get him calm. And while someone them were genuinely helpful, some really were more interested in just getting the sound to stop! (Perhaps they were being pressured by patients in the next rooms.) I was so glad when I could go home.

 

My older son was full term and 9 pounds but in the NICU. The NICU nurses were totally not used to hearing full term babies cry. It really put them on edge. I stayed there as much as I could but they would not let us be there at night or shift changes. One of the nurses said that she was thinking of drop kicking him out the window because he cried so much more than the other (1-3 pound) pre term babies that were there. I was like, um this is my BABY you are talking about. No drop kicking. :D

[5kidsforME]

:iagree:I am not a particular fan of the Kennedys but I would be inclined to side with just about anyone against L&D/Maternity nurses.

 

Well, I for one, am quite glad that there are wonderful L&D and maternity nurses. I have had all my babies in the hospital and have had wonderful care. Sure there are some that are stinkers but that is just like anything in life. What a shame that you paint them with such a broad sweeping nasty brush.

[5kidsforME]

My older son was full term and 9 pounds but in the NICU. The NICU nurses were totally not used to hearing full term babies cry. One of them said that she was thinking of drop kicking him out the window because he cried so much more than the other (1-3 pound) pre term babies that were there. I was like, um this is my BABY you are talking about. No drop kicking. :D

 

Seriously?? Methinks you possibly have a very active imagination.

[LucyStoner]

Seriously?? Methinks you possibly have a very active imagination.

 

Nope. My husband and I both heard it and were totally flabbergasted. She was a very crabby person. That hospital must have been a horrible place to work (many yucky things happened there to me and many of my friends and neighbors) so I can only assume that she was at her wits end in the terrible environment and that the dysfunctional hospital was not supervising her very well. She was awful, but the whole place was awful. There is are many reasons that we opted to deliver elsewhere with our younger son and actually the drop kick comment was really not the worst of it. FTR, the way she said it it was clearly her idea of a joke. But obviously, it was a bad joke. She also rebuked me for not getting more milk with I was pumping and scowled when my MIL came to see our son even though the doctors and head nurse said explicitly that it was ok.

 

FWIW, it is kinda silly to tell me that I imagined or rather hint I am lying about something just because it does not fit with the fact that you think positively of L&D nurses. So do I. But there are some rotten apples and also ones that just have rotten apple days like any other profession.

Edited February 28, 2012 by kijipt

[celticmom]

I hear so many saying "rules are rules" but don't a parent's rights override a company's rules? Like I said earlier they are rules, not laws. yes, they have to tell him to stop. But he doesn't have to listen to them. He has no legal obligation to follow their rules. It is his kid, and he can leave if he wants to.

:iagree:I wish we had a like button.

[cindergretta]

:iagree:I am not a particular fan of the Kennedys but I would be inclined to side with just about anyone against L&D/Maternity nurses.

 

Wow. :glare: What an unkind thing to say, especially in a thread with several L&D nurses participating. I don't know what happened to you, but my experience (6 times over in a total of 4 different hospitals, including a military hospital) has been 98% positive with a couple of stinkers to prove the rule - L&D nurses ROCK! :D

[5kidsforME]

Wow. :glare: What an unkind thing to say, especially in a thread with several L&D nurses participating. I don't know what happened to you, but my experience (6 times over in a total of 4 different hospitals, including a military hospital) has been 98% positive with a couple of stinkers to prove the rule - L&D nurses ROCK! :D

 

 

:iagree:

[Jean in Newcastle]

Wow. :glare: What an unkind thing to say, especially in a thread with several L&D nurses participating. I don't know what happened to you, but my experience (6 times over in a total of 4 different hospitals, including a military hospital) has been 98% positive with a couple of stinkers to prove the rule - L&D nurses ROCK! :D

 

:iagree: Not to mention that it is a gross generalization to tar every single person of a profession with the same brush.

[ktgrok]

Nope. My husband and I both heard it and were totally flabbergasted. She was a very crabby person. That hospital must have been a horrible place to work (many yucky things happened there to me and many of my friends and neighbors) so I can only assume that she was at her wits end in the terrible environment and that the dysfunctional hospital was not supervising her very well. She was awful, but the whole place was awful. There is are many reasons that we opted to deliver elsewhere with our younger son and actually the drop kick comment was really not the worst of it. FTR, the way she said it it was clearly her idea of a joke. But obviously, it was a bad joke. She also rebuked me for not getting more milk with I was pumping and scowled when my MIL came to see our son even though the doctors and head nurse said explicitly that it was ok.

 

FWIW, it is kinda silly to tell me that I imagined or rather hint I am lying about something just because it does not fit with the fact that you think positively of L&D nurses. So do I. But there are some rotten apples and also ones that just have rotten apple days like any other profession.

 

I believe you. The first nurse I had in triage, with my son, sat there gossiping on the phone about the other patients in the ward. She told someone on the phone that there were women there that just wanted a free meal or attention and were not in labor. And then said she was going to quit soon! Right in earshot of everyone! AND she had long nails so her cervical check HURT, AND she freaked out that my baby was dying when actually I had taken the monitor off to use the bathroom when she wouldn't come when called. ugh. Had another one refuse to get me my meds on time because in her opinion a nursing mom shouldn't take the painkillers as often as they were prescribed. I ended up with a fever from the pain, it was that bad. The rest were nice enough, and one was super nice, but I only had her one night, overnight. She put clean sheets on my bed while i was in the bathroom because she saw they were sweaty. I still think fondly of her 12 years later.

[LucyStoner]

I believe you. The first nurse I had in triage, with my son, sat there gossiping on the phone about the other patients in the ward. She told someone on the phone that there were women there that just wanted a free meal or attention and were not in labor. And then said she was going to quit soon! Right in earshot of everyone! AND she had long nails so her cervical check HURT, AND she freaked out that my baby was dying when actually I had taken the monitor off to use the bathroom when she wouldn't come when called. ugh. Had another one refuse to get me my meds on time because in her opinion a nursing mom shouldn't take the painkillers as often as they were prescribed. I ended up with a fever from the pain, it was that bad. The rest were nice enough, and one was super nice, but I only had her one night, overnight. She put clean sheets on my bed while i was in the bathroom because she saw they were sweaty. I still think fondly of her 12 years later.

 

Yes, most are nice. Some are not. Just like any other profession.

 

The drop-kick nurse was not the worst one. The drop kick nurse pales to the one that stood around gossiping with the anesthesiologist who did my epidural. He was totally distracted the whole time and I was laying there listening to them discuss the fairly intimate personal details/drama of friends of theirs who were dating. They both repeatedly ignored me when I explained that I could still very much feel one side of my body and move that leg but not the other. The nurse was totally dismissive. When a c-section became necessary, they were going to re dose that same epidural and do the surgery. I had to demand that they either redo it or give me a spinal because an c-section when I could feel one side of my body was NOT going to happen, the anesthesiologist on shift then in the OR clearly said "Oh, this epi looks dodgy":glare: Had I not insisted on a spinal, I would have had close to full sensation in half my body during the surgery. Not ok so that I can listen to staff gossip.

 

At my second birth, the entire team was AMAZING. The nurse midwife who cared for me during the pregnancy, the shift nurses at the hospital when I was there during the pregnancy for hypermesis and when he was born, the OB I consulted with about the VBAC plans, the anesthesiologist who was necessary because I ultimately needed a preterm c-section, the OB who did the surgery, the nurse who called to follow up post discharge. Every single one of them was proof that good people walk the earth. Frankly, I think the hospital in each case set the tone and stage for the sorts of people they hired and the culture. The first was all about the hospital and the staff, the second was much more focused on the family and the baby.

[celticmom]

Well, I for one, am quite glad that there are wonderful L&D and maternity nurses. I have had all my babies in the hospital and have had wonderful care. Sure there are some that are stinkers but that is just like anything in life. What a shame that you paint them with such a broad sweeping nasty brush.

 

The ones(yes plural) I encountered were at best useless and at worst harmful and offensive. I have PTSD symptoms from my hospital birth.

[Jean in Newcastle]

The ones(yes plural) I encountered were at best useless and at worst harmful and offensive. I have PTSD symptoms from my hospital birth.

 

I'm sorry that happened to you. I was sexually assaulted by someone. I have PTSD from that. It does not make it ok for me to slam everyone in his profession or his race or anything else.

[cindergretta]

I'm sorry that happened to you. I was sexually assaulted by someone. I have PTSD from that. It does not make it ok for me to slam everyone in his profession or his race or anything else.

 

:iagree: When I miscarried in 2007, I went to the ER and had the most horrific experience imaginable with a PA there. I was floored with how unbelievable this guy was. My dh was so far beyond livid it wasn't funny. I wrote a scathing letter to the head of the hospital, saying if I ever landed in that ER again, this man had better not come near me! Who called me? A doctor? No. Head of the department? No. The head of the nursing department called me and the head of the nurses for the ER called me. The nurses were amazing, the PA was atrocious. And it was the nurses who called to apologize profusely and check on me and go out of their way to ensure that I was Ok.

 

I don't believe all or even most PAs can be judged by this yahoo. I don't believe doctors can all be judged by the utter lack of response from the doctors in charge. I believe that PA was a loser and the those doctors were chickens. But the rest - more than likely they are all mostly good and fine.

 

A traumatic experience is just that - a horrid, traumatic experience that needs recovering. I'm sorry you had such a horrible time, celticmom. :grouphug:

[Momof3littles]

Not if the hospital asserts medical neglect. (Though I assume this might vary from region to region) Then they will almost certainly do a full investigation (including private, intrusive interviews w/ any older children)

 

Y'all do realize that a parent **does not** have the right to sign a baby (or any child) out AMA? Sometime a hospital will *allow* one to, but one does not have that *right*.

Sure, they can investigate. I know CPS can certainly be problematic. However, I still assert it is absolutely ridiculous to involve CPS for all moms and babies who leave AMA. Again, if that is the case, CPS should be parked outside the door of every freestanding birth center or going after every homebirther. Leaving a FSBC 4 hours after a birth (although clients are certainly permitted to stay longer than that if they desire) is not medical neglect. If baby has had an exam, is stable, stable temp, etc. and the parent chooses to leave earlier than the hospital typically discharges patients, how is it dramatically different? Perhaps the family is going to have an exam done by their own pediatrician that day or the next after the initial hospital exams. I have a problem with a blanket policy of leaving early=necessitating a call to CPS.

 

If a baby has been examined, is medically stable, etc. then it is going to be tough to demonstrate medical neglect. If the hospital calls it in to CPS, CPS is obligated to investigate I think, and I imagine in most cases the case would be closed pretty quickly. That isn't to say CPS can't cause problems, but this is why I have an issue with a blanket hospital policy that leaving AMA requires a call to CPS. Give birth and try to run out the door with the baby before he/she has been examined? Maybe. Give birth, have baby examined several times, baby is stable, and parents want to leave earlier than typical? Probably not a case of medical neglect.

 

I guess this is why it is good to know your practitioner in advance, know whether they will agree to an early discharge that is not AMA, or explore alternatives like a FSBC, etc.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Momof3littles

[ravinlunachick]

Y'all do realize that a parent **does not** have the right to sign a baby (or any child) out AMA? Sometime a hospital will *allow* one to, but one does not have that *right*.

 

Says who? I was under the impression that parents have the right to refuse ANY medical treatment for their children, barring court intervention. I can't imagine a hospital going to court because some parents want to leave earlier than the 24hr standard.

 

BTW, those of you who keep saying they should have had a homebirth must have missed the fact that Mrs. Kennedy had a c-section. Last I checked, that was not an option available for home, even to the very wealthy. :tongue_smilie:

[Princess Peach]

BTW, those of you who keep saying they should have had a homebirth must have missed the fact that Mrs. Kennedy had a c-section. Last I checked, that was not an option available for home, even to the very wealthy. :tongue_smilie:

 

Yeah, I missed it. Since he had no choice than to be at the hospital, I still think he should have just followed the rules and avoided making a circus out of his child's birth.

[catz]

Says who? I was under the impression that parents have the right to refuse ANY medical treatment for their children, barring court intervention. I can't imagine a hospital going to court because some parents want to leave earlier than the 24hr standard.

 

BTW, those of you who keep saying they should have had a homebirth must have missed the fact that Mrs. Kennedy had a c-section. Last I checked, that was not an option available for home, even to the very wealthy. :tongue_smilie:

 

I didn't miss it. Just because she *NEEDED* a c-section doesn't mean the parents can then immediately bypass security procedures put into place. Yes - they could have checked their child out and that's what they should have done rather than get into a tussle in the hall. And I highly doubt CPS would have gotten seriously involved.

[Nakia]

Thank you to those of you who have been very supportive of nurses in this thread. I know I speak for all of the nurses on this board that it means a lot. It seems like every time someone on this board (and in life, really) has a bad medical experience, they decide nurses suck. I am not dumb; I know lots of nurses do suck. I have been cared for by a few awful nurses. But the vast majority of nurses are doing the very best they can, and they do care.

 

I guess I'm the first one who mentioned that signing your baby out AMA means CPS will investigate. And I also said I don't agree with that 100%. But you all have to realize that not every parent who signs their baby out AMA is kind and loving and just wants the baby home early. We have drug addicts, prostitutes, homeless people, and the list goes on. Those women have babies too, you know. So for that reason there has to be a blanket policy (at my hospital) that if a parent signs a baby out AMA, CPS will follow up. It's up to CPS to determine if there is, in fact, neglect or abuse. Most of the time, CPS will already be following those cases, but that's only if we know the situation. Most people aren't going to be very forthcoming if they are homeless or a prostitute.

 

Early discharges are a totally different thing from signing out AMA. If a parent wants to leave before 24 hours with a healthy term baby that is eating well, voiding and stooling, there is no reason to suspect neglect or abuse, and mom was not GBS +, then there really isn't any reason a pediatrician wouldn't allow it. It is then not against medical advice (AMA). No problem.

 

Deciding you are going to take your baby out for "fresh air," removing the security tag, and assaulting nurses on the way out the door is neither signing your baby out AMA nor asking for an early discharge. It fits the criteria for infant abduction. Anyone can see that.

[dansamy]

Running with the infant when approached by the nursing staff would have sent up a huge red flag on any prudent nurse's radar. The nurse and the hospital are liable while the infant is in their care and there are procedures and safety measures in place to protect the safety, security and health of every infant in the ward, not just the ones with famous/wealthy parents. He provoked the altercation with the staff by deliberately trying to circumvent those safety policies and procedures. Our hospital takes infant security very seriously and people have lost their jobs for violations of those safety policies. I'm not about to let a dad walk out with an infant and take my job and license with him.

[kathymuggle]

I think a babies father should be able to take a baby for some fresh air if he feels like it (assuming baby is medically stable) and there are no custody issues.

 

I do not think he went about it the correct way - he should have presented himself at the desk on the ward and let them know he was taking the baby for a walk. If they balked, he should have ceded to their rules if they made sense, or brought the request up the chain of command if he was not convinced.

 

Turning a maternity ward into a 3 ring circus is not cool.

[Momof3littles]

Thank you to those of you who have been very supportive of nurses in this thread. I know I speak for all of the nurses on this board that it means a lot. It seems like every time someone on this board (and in life, really) has a bad medical experience, they decide nurses suck. I am not dumb; I know lots of nurses do suck. I have been cared for by a few awful nurses. But the vast majority of nurses are doing the very best they can, and they do care.

 

I guess I'm the first one who mentioned that signing your baby out AMA means CPS will investigate. And I also said I don't agree with that 100%. But you all have to realize that not every parent who signs their baby out AMA is kind and loving and just wants the baby home early. We have drug addicts, prostitutes, homeless people, and the list goes on. Those women have babies too, you know. So for that reason there has to be a blanket policy (at my hospital) that if a parent signs a baby out AMA, CPS will follow up. It's up to CPS to determine if there is, in fact, neglect or abuse. Most of the time, CPS will already be following those cases, but that's only if we know the situation. Most people aren't going to be very forthcoming if they are homeless or a prostitute.

 

Early discharges are a totally different thing from signing out AMA. If a parent wants to leave before 24 hours with a healthy term baby that is eating well, voiding and stooling, there is no reason to suspect neglect or abuse, and mom was not GBS +, then there really isn't any reason a pediatrician wouldn't allow it. It is then not against medical advice (AMA). No problem.

 

Deciding you are going to take your baby out for "fresh air," removing the security tag, and assaulting nurses on the way out the door is neither signing your baby out AMA nor asking for an early discharge. It fits the criteria for infant abduction. Anyone can see that.

I agree some practitioners agree to an early checkout. However, I've had friends who were told if they wanted to leave early, it would have to be AMA. Perhaps this was a mere threat. I have friends who have successfully negotiated discharge within 8-12 hours of the baby being born, and this was discussed in advance. These friends also happen to be highly educated, more affluent, and I wonder if a mother with a different socioeconomic status or education level would have the same success on average.

 

I am not anti nurse, fwiw. I was a PT prior to becoming a SAHM.

 

I'm well aware of the varying types of individuals who are in hospitals. I've worked professionally, including working in early intervention and home health situations, with parents on the low education, low socioeconomic status end of things. I am very much aware of the challenges that often pop up in those situations (although there are certainly challenges at all data points on the socioeconomic scale).

 

I do have a hunch that on the whole, a woman with a higher education level, middle class or above socioeconomic status, etc. would have an easier time negotiating an early discharge without being threatened with having to do so AMA, or if a mom of greater education and greater financial means would leave AMA, she'd be less likely to have much of a run-in with CPS. I also think perhaps she'd have less of an issue in her hospital with things like cosleeping. I'm speaking in sweeping generalities, but I think women are treated differently (on the whole, not speaking to your specific hospital) based on their socioeconomic status and education level.

 

Believe me, I understand the challenges that pop up in providing care to young children from disadvantaged backgrounds. I really do. But I wonder if many of the policies are impacted by the clientele served by a specific hospital. Spycar's family coslept in one little hospital bed, as did my own family. I wonder if I was a woman of a different education level, and lower socioeconomic status, or if I was a teen mom, would I have received a different reception to my decisions in the hospital? (I'm not speaking to your hospital specifically, Nakia).

Edited February 28, 2012 by Momof3littles

[mommaduck]

I think a babies father should be able to take a baby for some fresh air if he feels like it (assuming baby is medically stable) and there are no custody issues.

 

I do not think he went about it the correct way - he should have presented himself at the desk on the ward and let them know he was taking the baby for a walk. If they balked, he should have ceded to their rules if they made sense, or brought the request up the chain of command if he was not convinced.

 

Turning a maternity ward into a 3 ring circus is not cool.

Given the shift changes and the multitude of potential family issues, keeping the baby in the ward, particularly where the mother is, is the simplest means of not making wrong decisions in who is taking the baby where. When you give birth in the hospital (regardless of reason), you must abide by the policies put in place. They are there for good reason. And I'm pro homebirth, pro breastfeeding, and pro co-sleeping.

[kathymuggle]

Given the shift changes and the multitude of potential family issues, keeping the baby in the ward, particularly where the mother is, is the simplest means of not making wrong decisions in who is taking the baby where. When you give birth in the hospital (regardless of reason), you must abide by the policies put in place. They are there for good reason. And I'm pro homebirth, pro breastfeeding, and pro co-sleeping.

 

Bolding mine. I am not sure how this plays into it :confused:

 

I hear you on the rest of it. I simply think there is a way to cede to parental rights, while keeping babies safe. I was in the hospital recently with an older child and was asked if there were any custody issues they needed to be aware of. It can be a question included on intake. Parents who want to take their child for a walk can then go to the reception desk, state their intent to go for a walk, and the receptionist can look up who the parents are and if there are custody issues. I am tired of the erosion of parental rights in institutions - I firmly believe there is a way to keep babies safe while supporting parental authority.

 

I am not a rule breaker for the sake of it - but I do expect rules to be reasonable, and I expect them to be explained to me if I ask (when time permits). If you are asking me to give up my rights as a parent (right to take my baby for a walk) you should be willing to say why. There is an excellent possibility that once someone explains to me why the rule exists I will comply. If I genuinely think the rule is bogus I would write a letter, refuse to use that hospital again, etc. I wouldn't just take my baby for a walk and I think RKJ was wrong do so.

Edited February 28, 2012 by kathymuggle

[Jean in Newcastle]

I hear you on the rest of it. I simply think there is a way to cede to parental rights, while keeping babies safe. I was in the hospital recently with an older child and was asked if there were any custody issues they needed to be aware of. It can be a question included on intake. Parents who want to take their child for a walk can then go to the reception desk, state their intent to go for a walk, and the receptionist can look up who the parents are and if there are custody issues. I am tired of the erosion of parental rights in institutions - I firmly believe there is a way to keep babies safe while supporting parental authority.

 

 

 

I think that depends on how big the hospital is. I can see this working in a smaller hospital but not in a large urban hospital.