Do church of christ believe other mainline, evangelical christians are not believers?

[staceyobu]

We have some acquaintances that seem very intent on sharing the gospel with us. We have tried convincing them that we really like Jesus, too, but we seemed to have reached an impasse. DH thinks it's sorta funny because most of the people he works with considers us borderline crazy fundamentals (homeschooling, pregnant with fourth kid, church every week, etc). However, this family doesn't seem to even consider us christians.

 

My mom grew up church of christ many moons ago and later switched to baptist. She said her mom was convinced she had doomed her family to hell. I'm just wondering if that belief is still held by some? I'm not sure how to get this family to respect our beliefs short of switching to their church. And, we're quite happy being presbyterian.

 

Any thoughts? Or advice on how to handle it?

 

And no offense meant to anyone who is church of christ. I have lots of other coc friends and this has never come up before!

[Unicorn.]

Dh grew up CoC. Every single time I visited his parents church, the message was the same. All the rest of us (Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc) were going to hell, because we worshipped false gods, and only CoC was the real church. So yes, you are considered not real Christians. How to handle it? Tell them you appreciate their concern, but you don't wish or feel a need to be saved, that Jesus has already taken care of that for you. :D

[ma23peas]

I do believe there may be different sects of the Church of Christ, just like all Baptists do not believe the same...but from my experience (grandfather was Church of Christ, some cousins, and my next door neighbors) yes, they do believe that. They also do not believe in singing with instruments..I dated one in college (very briefly) who wanted to go and meet my parents (6 hour drive and had only been out two or three times officially)...before that, (he should have had a clue that I was a rebel) he invited me to his Sunday night church service, I wore a nice pants outfit....Baptists always wore pants and all the other churches I visited especially on Sunday night service. He was too embarrassed to ask me to change and you should have seen the looks I received...oh and in his church women do not speak up, it was an informal message and the pastor was asking questions, I spoke up just as the other men had, but was later told that women are not allowed to speak up in service? That should have been my clue to exit..just not my way to express my faith. But, when he drove me home I expected him to go to my parent's church for Sunday service, he tells me at 10pm on Saturday night that he is not 'allowed' to go to other churches??? HUH? So, being the nice girl I was I took him around to check out local Church of Christ churches...I found FIVE! We were in the Bible belt....but he nixed all five because they had church buses..he said it was against the church's beliefs to own buses..that it is the responsibility of the members to pick up those who need a ride....We were out until midnight looking for a church.

My mom let us 'sleep in' knowing that we had been out late looking for a church and cooked a big breakfast, he never said he would go to my church so we just assumed he didn't want to go so we did not want to pressure him...he said it was the first time he had missed church in 20 years...needless to say, the ride back was very quiet and awkward....I am SURE he was not indicative of all Church of Christ, but on a whole, they can be quite exclusionary in their thinking.

[staceyobu]

Dh grew up CoC. Every single time I visited his parents church, the message was the same. All the rest of us (Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc) were going to hell, because we worshipped false gods, and only CoC was the real church. So yes, you are considered not real Christians. How to handle it? Tell them you appreciate their concern, but you don't wish or feel a need to be saved, that Jesus has already taken care of that for you. :D

 

Interesting. Exactly which false gods are the rest of us worshipping?

[chepyl]

My mom grew up Church of Christ, they left when she was in high school. They believed that if you did not take communion on Sunday and you died the next day, you would not go to heaven. In college I had friends with the same belief.

 

Maybe that has something to do with it.

[Dobela]

I do believe there may be different sects of the Church of Christ, just like all Baptists do not believe the same...but from my experience (grandfather was Church of Christ, some cousins, and my next door neighbors) yes, they do believe that. They also do not believe in singing with instruments..I dated one in college (very briefly) who wanted to go and meet my parents (6 hour drive and had only been out two or three times officially)...before that, (he should have had a clue that I was a rebel) he invited me to his Sunday night church service, I wore a nice pants outfit....Baptists always wore pants and all the other churches I visited especially on Sunday night service. He was too embarrassed to ask me to change and you should have seen the looks I received...oh and in his church women do not speak up, it was an informal message and the pastor was asking questions, I spoke up just as the other men had, but was later told that women are not allowed to speak up in service? That should have been my clue to exit..just not my way to express my faith. But, when he drove me home I expected him to go to my parent's church for Sunday service, he tells me at 10pm on Saturday night that he is not 'allowed' to go to other churches??? HUH? So, being the nice girl I was I took him around to check out local Church of Christ churches...I found FIVE! We were in the Bible belt....but he nixed all five because they had church buses..he said it was against the church's beliefs to own buses..that it is the responsibility of the members to pick up those who need a ride....We were out until midnight looking for a church.

My mom let us 'sleep in' knowing that we had been out late looking for a church and cooked a big breakfast, he never said he would go to my church so we just assumed he didn't want to go so we did not want to pressure him...he said it was the first time he had missed church in 20 years...needless to say, the ride back was very quiet and awkward....I am SURE he was not indicative of all Church of Christ, but on a whole, they can be quite exclusionary in their thinking.

I am church of Christ. There are several on the boards if you are interested in knowing. There is a wide range in what churches of Christ believe. There is a very conservative group at one end (which is what the above sounds like) and a very 'liberal' group at the other end with all types in between. Some will condem everyone else, others will not. Some even have instrumental music now. What most have in common is the following:

1. Each church is autonomous and decisions are made within that church by a group of church leaders. Smaller churches make decisions by gathering all the men together, larger ones select multiple elders who make church decisions. There is no group or organization that oversees everyone or makes decisions for everyone (in comparison toSouthern Baptists or Catholics, etc).

2. It is believed that one must be baptized to be saved according to multiple scriptural references. Before baptism one needs to hear the gospel, believe in Christ, understand why Christ died, repent and confess that one has sinned, and then be baptized. If someone has not been baptized by immersion, then yes, it is believed that your soul is in danger. It is also believed that one can lose salvation if one choses to walk away from God.

3. The Lord's Supper is offered every week on Sunday.

4. No instruments because there is no reference to music being used in worship in the New Testament, nor is there reference to music being used in worship for many, many years in history by the early Christians. We don't use the OT as a basis for worship because we believe that when Christ died, the OT was fulfilled and we should look to the early Christians, the NT, and the Apostles for guidance on what is expected in worship under the new law that was created when Christ was resurrected.

 

I attend what is considered to be 'mainstream', or more middle of the road. The more conservative churches call themselves NonInstitutional because they don't believe any church funds should be used to support any institutions - such as schools or children's homes - because those are the responsibility of individuals. Some are incredibly strict and believe that anything beyond the strictest interpretaion of the Bible is sin. There is a wide range of the conservative churches as well. Those who are mainstreamor liberal often have referred to the Non-institutional churches as Anti because they are always against something. One of the big arguments has to do with issues such as should there be a kitchen in the church (some view having fellowship halls and kitchens to be sinful and a misuse of church finds). Some only worship in homes as there are no examples of church buildings in the NT, and so on. Generally, if the Bible is silent, then it isn't allowed. As a mainstream church of Christ member I have been shunned by some members of the NI churches for not believing correctly. The ones I know believe that unless you worship just like them, then you are worshiping a false God and need to repent. Pretty much everything you do (or don't so) in those churches is a salvation issue, from my experience.

 

The more 'liberal' churches will often fellowship with other denominations, although not all do, and have more contemporary services that look more like community nondemoninational church services. A few now have instrumental music, are led by praise teams, and so on. They seem to usually believe that we are all trying to worship the same God but some other churches are misinterpreting the scriptures, or have been led astray by the teachings of a popular man, or something similar. They usually are benevelont to everyone, not just church members.

 

I attend a mainstream congregation which is somewhere in the middle of both of those. even within our congregation there is a range of personal beliefs. And, as I said, each congregation is different somewhat because the elders are different.

[Ipsey]

We have some acquaintances that seem very intent on sharing the gospel with us. We have tried convincing them that we really like Jesus, too, but we seemed to have reached an impasse. DH thinks it's sorta funny because most of the people he works with considers us borderline crazy fundamentals (homeschooling, pregnant with fourth kid, church every week, etc). However, this family doesn't seem to even consider us christians.

 

My mom grew up church of christ many moons ago and later switched to baptist. She said her mom was convinced she had doomed her family to hell. I'm just wondering if that belief is still held by some? I'm not sure how to get this family to respect our beliefs short of switching to their church. And, we're quite happy being presbyterian.

 

Any thoughts? Or advice on how to handle it?

 

And no offense meant to anyone who is church of christ. I have lots of other coc friends and this has never come up before!

 

It really depends, as other posters have mentioned.

The hard-liners, or more traditional (sometimes called "Campbellites, by their detractors") believe in a restored church (see "restored Stone-Campbell movement and "Second Great Awakening") and that they are not Protestant, rather they seek to be the body of Christ as it has always been and has always been meant to be.

 

One of my best friends as a girl was CoC and her father was preacher at their church. ("Preacher" not "pastor" is an important distinction in their church). I learned about their church through them. Yes, they believed that even though I was born again and immersed in baptism and believed in Jesus to forgive me of my sins still meant nothing, but that folks who were truly Christians would wind up worshipping with them on Sundays and taking communion, etc.

 

What your seeing with your friends is the norm and is the teachings of this segment of Christian belief.

 

My friend and I agreed to disagree. She didn't consider me a Christian, and we were friends anyway.

 

We've since come to agreement though, since we're now both atheists ;)

[Ellie]

I'm not sure how to get this family to respect our beliefs short of switching to their church. And, we're quite happy being presbyterian.

They may never respect your beliefs. And you don't need them to, either. They do need to keep their thoughts to themselves, and if they cannot, then y'all may have to think about limiting your time with them. :-(

[cani e porci]

Heaven's going to be an awfully lonely place for those folks. They'll be rolling around like a few cupcake sprinkles in an empty #10 can if it's that exclusive.

[Onceuponatime]

Interesting. Exactly which false gods are the rest of us worshipping?

 

They wouldn't be false gods, more like non-existant gods.

 

Dobela gave a very good description. There are many levels of belief. I've attended middle of the road churches of Christ for years. The more relaxed members have no trouble laughing at the idiosycracies of the church. It can be very interesting if you get extreme fundamental visitors in a modern style Bible class with women speaking up and participants questioning established teaching. In my experience the more liberal members excercise a great deal of tolerance, or leave for other kinds of churches.

[UnsinkableKristen]

I attend a CofC (and have my entire life) and yes, some people believe this. Not as many as when I was growing up, though, and many of those people have changed their minds. I certainly do not believe that everyone else is going to hell.

 

Because CofC churches are entirely autonomous there is a VERY WIDE range of beliefs you will find. VERY. WIDE. I love my church and it's heritage, but it can be frustrating when people have only experienced the merciless and uncharitable of our brethren.:glare:

[Lacie]

They wouldn't be false gods, more like non-existant gods.

 

Dobela gave a very good description. There are many levels of belief. I've attended middle of the road churches of Christ for years. The more relaxed members have no trouble laughing at the idiosycracies of the church. It can be very interesting if you get extreme fundamental visitors in a modern style Bible class with women speaking up and participants questioning established teaching. In my experience the more liberal members excercise a great deal of tolerance, or leave for other kinds of churches.

 

I am a member of the church of Christ.

 

There is a big difference between worshipping false gods (non-existant gods) and worshipping the one true God in a way that is not acceptable.

 

I believe that we are supposed to live by the New Testament and worship according to the New Testament.

 

I will not press my beliefs on anyone, but I am happy to discuss anything or answer any quesitons.

[NotAVampireLvr]

you'll find this in many denominations. I have Catholic family members who believe I will not go to heaven because I am no longer Catholic. Not all of them, but some of them. I know some who would rather see me an unbeliever than be baptist. I'm not saying all Catholics are like this - I have Catholic friends who do not believe this, but I'm just relating my personal experience with it. On the flip side there are many Christians who do not believe Catholics are Christian.

Edited February 12, 2012 by NotAVampireLvr

[MamaSheep]

We have some acquaintances that seem very intent on sharing the gospel with us. We have tried convincing them that we really like Jesus, too, but we seemed to have reached an impasse. DH thinks it's sorta funny because most of the people he works with considers us borderline crazy fundamentals (homeschooling, pregnant with fourth kid, church every week, etc). However, this family doesn't seem to even consider us christians.

 

My mom grew up church of christ many moons ago and later switched to baptist. She said her mom was convinced she had doomed her family to hell. I'm just wondering if that belief is still held by some? I'm not sure how to get this family to respect our beliefs short of switching to their church. And, we're quite happy being presbyterian.

 

Any thoughts? Or advice on how to handle it?

 

And no offense meant to anyone who is church of christ. I have lots of other coc friends and this has never come up before!

 

I don't know much about the Church of Christ, so can't comment on that aspect at all. However, I have had similar situations many times with friends and acquaintances who believe I'm going to hell because of my religious affiliation and beliefs. In my experience these are almost always genuinely kind, caring people who are sincerely concerned. They're not usually trying to be overbearing or rude, they just like me and don't like to think of me burning in hell--which really is kind of them, even if their attempts to rescue me from that fate are awkward or heavy-handed. The best approach I've found so far is to tell them I value their friendship and appreciate their concern for my eternal well-being, but right now I'm feeling like the dynamic of the religious discussion in our friendship has gotten very tense,and I would hate for religious disagreements to damage our relationship. I tell them that if I have questions about their beliefs they will be the first ones I go to for answers, but I need a break from religious discussion for a while, so for the sake of our friendship can we just agree to disagree, at least for now. There are so many wonderful things we have in common or share an interest in that it would be sad if our friendship fell apart because we couldn't work around a disagreement in one area, even if it IS an important area. Occasionally I've had to be really blunt and just tell the person that even if they could never respect my beliefs I hope they can at least respect ME enough not to harass me about it. The things I believe are as important to me as the things they believe are to them, and if they can't at least be courteous about it I'm not going to hang out with them anymore. It doesn't usually come to that, though. Most people are willing to just be my friend and quit trying to save me, and just quietly hope they're around to point me in the "right" direction when I finally come to my senses and leave that evil cult I insist on belonging to. ;) (And that's ok, I'd love to be around when they finally decide they'd like to join up with my evil cult...tee hee...)

 

Sometimes it helps to have a few good "bean dip" phrases ready. "Thank you for sharing that with me, Jesus is important to me too. How 'bout this crazy weather we're having?" "I love how you're so enthusiastic about your church, I love my church too. Did you see that thing on the news about the guy who..." "I love reading the Bible too, I always find something worth thinking deeply about. You know, your youngest child said the cutest thing to me the other day..." Or there's always, "Well, I hear hell has a really good heating system, and my feet are always cold, so...."

Edited February 12, 2012 by MamaSheep

[Rhonda in TX]

I attend a CofC (and have my entire life) and yes, some people believe this. Not as many as when I was growing up, though, and many of those people have changed their minds. I certainly do not believe that everyone else is going to hell.

 

Because CofC churches are entirely autonomous there is a VERY WIDE range of beliefs you will find. VERY. WIDE. I love my church and it's heritage, but it can be frustrating when people have only experienced the merciless and uncharitable of our brethren.:glare:

 

I also grew up in the CofC and also love and am proud of my Christian heritage. It's not perfect, but then no church is. I always say we're all going to be surprised at who exactly is and is not in heaven. :)

[mamajag]

My ILs are CoC and yeah, every other Christian denomination is going to hell. Then they turn around and say there is no such thing as denomination, only salvation. :confused:

 

Most recently we had it out because a friend's mother committed suicide just before Christmas. She was a Catholic, and FIL upon hearing the news told me it was too bad she didn't have the Lord in her life or she wouldn't have done it. :angry: I clarified that she has been Catholic all her life, and he repeated himself and added that if she thought life was hard hell was gonna be a lot worse. :mad:

 

He can't understand why I won't allow my dc to go to church with him. :001_huh:

[Happy]

I attend a CofC (and have my entire life) and yes, some people believe this. Not as many as when I was growing up, though, and many of those people have changed their minds. I certainly do not believe that everyone else is going to hell.

 

Because CofC churches are entirely autonomous there is a VERY WIDE range of beliefs you will find. VERY. WIDE. I love my church and it's heritage, but it can be frustrating when people have only experienced the merciless and uncharitable of our brethren.:glare:

 

VERY. WIDE.

 

The majority of CoCs really don't do that 'we are the only ones going to heaven' thing anymore. Or at least the ones I know about...I would guess that 75% of the CoCers these days know that was a dark part of our history...and regret the bad taste it left in other people's lives.

 

I go to a middle of the road CoC. My husband has been an elder and we've done mission work overseas. Our congregation has partnered with other local churches (the Methodists, Baptists, and non-demominationals) with community outreach. We just want people in our area to seek God and know there are ready, willing, and loving people available to help or support. It's all about Christ.

 

I've gone to a very liberal CoC, too. Wild, wonderful, painful.

 

To be more main stream many CoCs are incorporating instruments into their worship. For me, I prefer acapella...so I can hear the voices of my brothers and sisters.

 

I appreciate the rich heritage and, yes, the passion people have for that heritage. Everytime I run into someone who is convinced their way is the only way whether it be church, Amway, or homeschooling, I remember God isn't finished with them or me yet. :D

[Cindyg]

To me it doesn't matter where (or whether) you go to church -- it's all about Jesus. If you have your theology straight on Jesus, everything else is just flavoring. If you don't, well, none of the rest of it matters any way.

[NotAVampireLvr]

To me it doesn't matter where (or whether) you go to church -- it's all about Jesus. If you have your theology straight on Jesus, everything else is just flavoring. If you don't, well, none of the rest of it matters any way.

:iagree:

[milovany]

To me it doesn't matter where (or whether) you go to church -- it's all about Jesus. If you have your theology straight on Jesus, everything else is just flavoring. If you don't, well, none of the rest of it matters any way.

 

 

I don't agree with this at all. Church is not "flavoring" -- it's the Body of Christ. Without the church, there is no Christian faith. This idea that "all you need is Jesus" is a reckless one, IMNSHO; it separates Christ from his own body (the church). Christ said he was building a church. That was his mission in coming; that's what the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost for -- to establish and build this work (and you see it in the early church; Christianity and church were inseparable, if you came to Christ you walked through the door the church).

 

With all that said, you don't have to agree with what I wrote. But please do realize that many, many Christians disagree with this assessment that "all you need is Jesus" and all the implied sentiments that go with it.

 

To the OP: I don't have any personal experience with the Church of Christ. The only familiarity I have with it came from the time our family converted to the Eastern Orthodox Church. We had some dear friends question our decision, based on an event in their past when someone they knew from the CoC questioned our friends' salvation because they weren't in the CoC denomination (our friends thought we felt the same way about them in the Orthodox church; that we think they're unsaved because they're not EO). I see now from reading above that this is not the only belief in the CoC, but apparently our friends came across some that did believe this.

Edited February 13, 2012 by milovaný

[tex-mex]

you'll find this in many denominations. I have Catholic family members who believe I will not go to heaven because I am no longer Catholic. Not all of them, but some of them. I know some who would rather see me an unbeliever than be baptist. I'm not saying all Catholics are like this - I have Catholic friends who do not believe this, but I'm just relating my personal experience with it. On the flip side there are many Christians who do not believe Catholics are Christian.

 

My entire family disowned me when I converted to Christianity and began attending a Baptist Church as a young college student. We were agnostic (more Santeria and Pagan) but "Catholic" for generations being Hispanic. But all heck broke loose with my mother, grandmother, aunts, uncles, etc -- when I changed churches and "crossed lines". My mother told me I was going to h_ll. Seriously.

 

My hubby was raised agnostic as well. When he converted to Christianity and joined the Navigators in college, his parents thought he had joined a cult. They contacted a pastor in their town for de-programming, but were reassured that the Navigators were not cultish by any means. LOL ;)

[BearWallowSchool]

I don't agree with this at all. Church is not "flavoring" -- it's the Body of Christ. Without the church, there is no Christian faith. This idea that "all you need is Jesus" is a reckless one, IMNSHO; it separates Christ from his own body (the church). Christ said he was building a church. That was his mission in coming; that's what the Holy Spirit came at Pentecost for -- to establish this work (and you see it in the early church; Christianity and church were inseparable, if you came to Christ you walked through the door the church).

 

:iagree::001_smile:

[cottonmama]

Another vote for VERY. WIDE.

 

I go to a fairly conservative coC. We have no kitchen, no instruments or praise team, no fellowship hall. Members of our church send their kids to the most conservative coC colleges. I'm pretty new at this congregation and recently came from an ICoC congregation, which is a whole 'nother thread for ya. Let's just say they're more liberal in some ways, and more strict in other ways.

 

I really love the dynamics in our current congregation. We have some more liberal members who ask really hard questions about coC beliefs during our Bible Classes. This is tolerated and even enjoyed; we often end up agreeing to disagree. Our preacher is often saying that he knows he's probably wrong about some things, and I *think* (though can't remember for sure) that he's explicitly taught against the belief that the OP described, i.e. that other denominations would be going to hell. In any case, the tone of his lessons tends to be doctrine oriented rather than focused on other denominations.

[God IS]

I was converted, agnostic to coC. We attend what I guess would be called a conservative, noninstitutional church.

 

We (as a body and as individuals) strive to worship God as described in the New testament, hence acapella singing, weekly Lords supper, men serving in church leadership, local elders deciding how to use the Lords money, and many other things.

 

The old testament is there for our learning and understanding, but Christ fulfilled to old convenant, and we are no longer bound to to the old law. He HAS created the NEW covenant. The NT is our pattern. It specifically says to neither add or take away.

 

We believe in baptism by immersion for the remission of sins. (On that note, one issue that may make a coC memeber concerned for the souls of others is infant baptism)

 

As another poster said,if the NT scripture is silent, we do not add to it. That, we believe according to scripture, would be sinful. I think that THIS point is where many become concerned for the souls of others who are worshipping God with a church that either adds or removes components of worship/church leadership/use of funds.

 

Some examples:

Music(the most in-your-face example). We don't see music in worship in the NT or for many many years of the early church. Therefor--we don't do it. We may get to Heaven and find out is wasn't a big deal...but why take a chance just because we like it? Salvations issue? Liekly not...but we just go by the scriptures.

 

Leadership: Each individual church chooses it's leaders(elders) to make decisions and sheperd the flock. Men only. Why? That is the pattern that we see in the new testament. Times may have changed, but God does not.

 

Money: Members are xpected and encoureged to give as they have prospered each Sunday. The funds are used to support the preaching og the gospel all over the world by induvidual preachers, support needy memebers, maintain a basic place to gather and worship, pay our preacher.

 

All this to say that I am not sur about the belief that anyone who is not in the coC will go to hell. Do I believe it? Not entirely, but i think that is is VERY important to God how we worship him(remember the strange fire?), how we live our lives, how we give and spend HIS money, how HIS churhc is run, and how HIS body(the church members) works together.

 

God gave us a PERFECT pattern. When people choose not to follow it; well:

 

There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 14:12

 

I think of this verse when I question something that is clearly laid out in scripture.

 

 

Okay, this got waaaay too long!

 

I am not trying to convert anyne here, but trying to shed light on the behavior of some brothers and sisters within the church.

[oraetstudia]

Not going to get into this, but find it very interesting. My family converted from coC to Catholic. Some parts of our family have been very difficult to deal with and some are shunning us. It is what it is.

[staceyobu]

As another poster said,if the NT scripture is silent, we do not add to it. That, we believe according to scripture, would be sinful. I think that THIS point is where many become concerned for the souls of others who are worshipping God with a church that either adds or removes components of worship/church leadership/use of funds.

 

Some examples:

Music(the most in-your-face example). We don't see music in worship in the NT or for many many years of the early church. Therefor--we don't do it. We may get to Heaven and find out is wasn't a big deal...but why take a chance just because we like it? Salvations issue? Liekly not...but we just go by the scriptures.

 

 

Thank you for your take on this. This helps me to understand the viewpoint they are coming from. I do have a difficult time understanding the practical nature of this, though. The NT does not mention spending money for air conditioning/heating or stain glassed windows. How can you possibly spend money/ have worship like the NT church when our lives are so very different?

[joyfulhomeschooler]

Sorry but it's coc members like that that give the rest of us a bad name. We attend a church of christ here in our home town and as far as I know no one believes such nonsense. I have always been taught by coc that as long as a church follows the Bible then it is part of the body of christ. I know that there are many coc's though that believe different things. For instance, some believe in musical instruments during worship and some don't, etc. The only disagreement I have so far at the one we attend is that they keep track of our attendance and make the people who don't attend as many hours as they feel appropriate feel as if they are going to Hell. I'm sorry your friend has made you feel this way :( I think I would pray hard for her and her family.

[burleygirl]

My mom grew up church of christ many moons ago and later switched to baptist. She said her mom was convinced she had doomed her family to hell. I'm just wondering if that belief is still held by some?

The bible teaches that many will go to hell (Luke 13:23-24). Those who don't know God and don't obey the gospel (II Thess 1:7-9). So yes some people still hold this belief. The bible also teaches there is one church (Eph 4:4) bought by the blood of Jesus and founded by Jesus not by a man.

 

I'm not sure how to get this family to respect our beliefs short of switching to their church. And, we're quite happy being presbyterian.

They are just concerned for your soul but you all will have to agree to disagree. Most people I know in the cofC are kind and compassionate. As with all people some are not.

 

Any thoughts? Or advice on how to handle it?

Again, as kindly as you can let them know you appreciate their concern but you're not interested in changing churches.

 

And no offense meant to anyone who is church of christ. I have lots of other coc friends and this has never come up before!

No offense taken. I share with those who are interested but do not push when I see that they are not or uncomfortable.

 

 

Dobela did a good job summing up our beliefs but again all congregations are autonomous and have no governing body except the New Testament.

[ma23peas]

I /

 

 

God gave us a PERFECT pattern. When people choose not to follow it; well:

 

There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. Proverbs 14:12

 

 

I am not trying to convert anyne here, but trying to shed light on the behavior of some brothers and sisters within the church.

 

This is where I get hung up, you use a scripture from the OT to support your church's traditions of clinging to the New Testament...I just find it ironic...music is such a great part of my life of worship, Psalms, David and instruments go hand in hand, how pleasing the praise music was to God, is it not the same God in old as in new test. He says He has always been, He does not change..I am not picking on coc but rather all denominations where a man's understanding has seen continual changes in any denomination, but God remains the same, I am thankful for His consistency over ours :)

[Dobela]

Thank you for your take on this. This helps me to understand the viewpoint they are coming from. I do have a difficult time understanding the practical nature of this, though. The NT does not mention spending money for air conditioning/heating or stain glassed windows. How can you possibly spend money/ have worship like the NT church when our lives are so very different?

Worshiping like in the NT is more than air conditioning. It is worshipping God in the way that he wants - in spirit and in truth. The apostles set out a pattern for worship after the death of Christ that I believe is how we should worship today. In the NT you will find verses telling us to sing, to pray, to take collections, to teach others, to be baptized for the remission of our sins, to gather together, to have elders and deacons, to partake of the Lord's Supper on the first day of the week, and so on - or describing to us that is what the first Christians were doing. Most church of Christ members that I know, and how I was raised, consider that to be the important parts. God wants our hearts and our souls not our buildings and our air conditioning. Each set of elders must consider the motive for changes. Most churches of Christ buildings are fairly plain, a few older ones will have stained glass, but not most. The reasoning is that the building is not the church, the people are, and the money spent on those things could be better spent on benevolence and outreach.

The church is often righyfully accused of wanting others to quote book, chapter, and verse to support an action rather than doing something because it is trendy or because another church is doing it, and so on. Decisions are not made 'because Joe feels this is ok'.

 

This is where the congregations really begin to differ. Our congregation is large, has a multipurpose building complete with commercial kitchen, and so on. A congregation a few miles away considers that this is wrong because beyond basic comfort, a church should not have a kitchen, extra buildings, and so on. For this small congregation air conditioning is considered 'expedient' and is allowed because of that. There are even a very few though that really think that you cannot have a building of any type, outside of someone's home, and be scriptural. And to them, if it isn't scriptural when worship is concerned, then it isn't acceptable.

 

The beliefs vary, and vary widely, just like they do in other groups. Think of the Amish. Some think any outside contact is sinful while others now have phones and electricity. Or even the Mennonites. Some require special dress, others don't. It comes down to intrepretation of scripture.

 

Churches of Christ also are not the only ones who honestly believe they are worshiping correctly, or that they need to convert neighbors. My Baptist family thinks it was awful that my dad converted when he was in his 20s. I can't tell you how many evangelical friends have let me know they don't believe I was saved in the right way or that they have the only path to Heaven.

 

If you want to know what your friends believe, then study with them and ask questions. They will give you Biblical reasons for everything they do most likely. You won't be told to go read commentary by someone else. You will be given scripture.

 

If you don't, then tell them. I freely share what I believe, and can give more here if someone wants to know, but if someone choses another path, then it is their salvation to work out. They have to answer to God, just like I will have to. I believe that I am to share the gospel with others, and to do that I have to share what I believe to be true and correct.

[Dobela]

This is where I get hung up, you use a scripture from the OT to support your church's traditions of clinging to the New Testament...I just find it ironic...music is such a great part of my life of worship, Psalms, David and instruments go hand in hand, how pleasing the praise music was to God, is it not the same God in old as in new test. He says He has always been, He does not change..I am not picking on coc but rather all denominations where a man's understanding has seen continual changes in any denomination, but God remains the same, I am thankful for His consistency over ours :)

The Old Testament is a a wonderful gift of scripture. Without it we would never understand the New Testament and why it was important for Christ to be our sacrifice. There are many lessons to be learned in the Old Testament. However, when it comes to what pleases God in worship, I don't believe we get to pick and chose. If we worship using old ways, such as instruments, then why not sacrifice a bull as well? Or follow all of the old laws?

 

I don't have time to post all the scripture now, hopefully someone else will, but I believe that when Christ died, the old law and ways ended. If we were to dance and use instruments, then the Aspostles would have passed that information along to us. They didn't. We are given no examples of them using instruments. If you look at the Christian movement as a whole in the first centuries, none of them used instruments for several centuries. And the churches of Christ are not the only ones who worship without instruments. I know of Primitive Baptists, some orthodox, and others that don't. It is also my understanding, from a few family members, that Catholics don't allow instruments in some special mass services.

 

There is evidence of churches for centuries worshipping just like the churches of Christ today (no instruments, meeting on the first day, baptism by immersion, and so on) but by other names or no names at all. Traces of the Kingdom uses Catholic records of persecution to trace the church back centuries in the United Kingdom,before the reformation in the US. The web site is not the easiest to navigate though so beware. It is now available in book form, just recently, but I have not had the opportunity to read it.

[Plucky]

It depends on the coc believer. Most do feel you are foresaken if you attend another church. My dh was a 7th generation coc member. It was really hard for him to leave, but because I was the stronger believer he went with me to another church. I suspect my in-laws pray for us. I can remember my mil (a lovely person) mentioning that we should pray for members that started going to a Lutheran church.

 

We left because I overheard too many members basing salvation on things like singing acapella instead of instruments, and weekly communion as salvation issues. It is still hard for dh to not attend, it is such a strongly held believe system based on ones salvation. He is happier though going to our current church.

 

I do love the coc singing, and the people are wonderful.

[Onceuponatime]

This is where I get hung up, you use a scripture from the OT to support your church's traditions of clinging to the New Testament...I just find it ironic...music is such a great part of my life of worship, Psalms, David and instruments go hand in hand, how pleasing the praise music was to God, is it not the same God in old as in new test. He says He has always been, He does not change..I am not picking on coc but rather all denominations where a man's understanding has seen continual changes in any denomination, but God remains the same, I am thankful for His consistency over ours :)

 

 

This is where you find the great divide in churches of Christ. Does the silence of the New Testament scriptures on certain topics limit choices or leave believers free to choose for themselves?

 

The most conservative members believe that acting within proscribed limits provides safety and security of salvation. This is especially pronounced in "acts of worship" and "steps of salvation."

 

The most liberal say that scriptures need only be followed as far as they clearly go, everything unclear or unmentioned is considered to be under "freedom in Christ."

 

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that churches of Christ worldwide consider them selves a worldwide fellowship, a brotherhood. This, in my opinion, is their greatest strength and most appealing quality. You can go just about anywhere and find people you know or someone who knows someone you know. :) Most of the time you can go to a new area and have instant family, with people who will take you in and treat you like long lost friends. (This is not always the case, but they are human beings after all)

 

It has been said that there are no governing bodies, that each congregation is autonymous. That is true. However, there are brotherhood wide newsletters, newspapers, Christian schools and colleges. All of these institutions tend to influence current attitudes and drive issues. I remember in the 80's most of the colleges would not allow girls to wear pants, now I believe they all do. Things change slowly, but they do change, as the members wrestle with which issues are "hills to die on" and which are not.

 

There are congregations who have cut themselves off from others because of differences of opinion. Being a former military family that travelled a lot, we saw many instances of this. Whatever issue drove the divide tends to disappear after about a decade, when the next generation moves into the shoes of the previous leadership.

 

Yes, there are some warts, but right now our church of Christ is home to me. Theologically, I've broken out (in my mind), but practically and emotionally I'm still entrenched.

[Georgiana Daniels]

I also grew up in the CofC and also love and am proud of my Christian heritage. It's not perfect, but then no church is. I always say we're all going to be surprised at who exactly is and is not in heaven. :)

 

 

:iagree:

[God IS]

The Old Testament is a a wonderful gift of scripture. Without it we would never understand the New Testament and why it was important for Christ to be our sacrifice. There are many lessons to be learned in the Old Testament. However, when it comes to what pleases God in worship, I don't believe we get to pick and chose. If we worship using old ways, such as instruments, then why not sacrifice a bull as well? Or follow all of the old laws?

 

I don't have time to post all the scripture now, hopefully someone else will, but I believe that when Christ died, the old law and ways ended. If we were to dance and use instruments, then the Aspostles would have passed that information along to us. They didn't. We are given no examples of them using instruments. If you look at the Christian movement as a whole in the first centuries, none of them used instruments for several centuries. And the churches of Christ are not the only ones who worship without instruments. I know of Primitive Baptists, some orthodox, and others that don't. It is also my understanding, from a few family members, that Catholics don't allow instruments in some special mass services.

 

There is evidence of churches for centuries worshipping just like the churches of Christ today (no instruments, meeting on the first day, baptism by immersion, and so on) but by other names or no names at all. Traces of the Kingdom uses Catholic records of persecution to trace the church back centuries in the United Kingdom,before the reformation in the US. The web site is not the easiest to navigate though so beware. It is now available in book form, just recently, but I have not had the opportunity to read it.

 

Yes. We study to Ot very much. It is there for our learning and understanding. The book of wise sayings is just that; a book of wisdom.

It is just as precious as the NT, but we are not bound to its LAWS.

 

The idea that we have a "tradition of clinging" to the NT is strange to me. It is Gods word. THE way he speaks to us, instructs us etc. Of course we cling to it! Clinging to man made traditions is different, and we make EVERY effort not to do that.

 

What I appreciate is that the scriptures are so simple. Truely. A lot of people can get hung up on just that. As has been said, our worship is super simple; only what we see in the NT. And as I said before, that is a driving force behind being concerned about others souls: God has ALWAYS been very specific about worshipping Him. Always. Beginning in Genesis. He gave us a pattern for being the body of Christ and worshiping him in spirit and truth--we should follow it!

 

It is often stated before worship that we(the local body) welcome any and all questions about what/how we do things and PLEASe let us know if we appear to be doing things contrary to the word of God.

 

Again, I'm saying all of this to help with your understanding, and not in an argumenative tone. I do welcome humble, open-hearted conversation on the matter, though :)

[milovany]

 

The idea that we have a "tradition of clinging" to the NT is strange to me. It is Gods word. THE way he speaks to us, instructs us etc. Of course we cling to it! Clinging to man made traditions is different, and we make EVERY effort not to do that.

 

 

Some would say that being part of a group that has only been around for 100 years or so (any group, not just singling out yours) as foundationally "man made." Any such group may have studied and interpreted the Bible according to personal understanding (most Christian groups/denominations believe they are "clinging to the NT," but they all look quite different, so somewhere there's a disconnect), and what was created was created out of this understanding -- i.e., by man, based on what he believes the Bible means. To me, a church that claims to be the "restored" church of Christ is flawed foundationally -- it presupposes that the church that God created at Pentecost was forsaken by Him at some point, a supposition that is unbiblical in itself. I can't go there -- I have to believe in a church that has existed from day one and still exists (unified similar to the way you describe the CoC, but not unified only at present, but also throughout the 2000 year history of the church).

 

I realize you and others won't probably agree with this and that's fine! Truly, I'm not about judging denominations. I just don't really like seeing the phrase "man-made" bandied about in such a way. Unless the group/denomination is tied in historically and apostolically to the original church (and yes, I do have an opinion on which church that is, but whether I'm right or not doesn't change my argument), the group has some man-made tradition at its core.

Edited February 13, 2012 by milovaný

[rudyionk]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that churches of Christ worldwide consider them selves a worldwide fellowship, a brotherhood. This, in my opinion, is their greatest strength and most appealing quality. You can go just about anywhere and find people you know or someone who knows someone you know. :) Most of the time you can go to a new area and have instant family, with people who will take you in and treat you like long lost friends. (This is not always the case, but they are human beings after all)

 

Very good point to make. My family worships with the church of Christ. We have a German foreign exchange student living with us this year. She is very social and likes to go to church with us every time we go, three times/week. when we went on vacation last fall break to Nebraska, we searched out a coC to attend on Sunday. She seemed nervous before we went in. We found out later that she didn't think we would be welcome and couldn't figure out why we would go there. She was then shocked that the people at this "unknown" church would be so accepting and friendly to us! She still mentions this from time to time.

 

I've enjoyed reading all the posts and identifying with so many of the thoughts expressed. Striving to worship and live as the New Testament teaches would sum up our congregation best, I believe.

[TXMomof4]

Thank you for your take on this. This helps me to understand the viewpoint they are coming from. I do have a difficult time understanding the practical nature of this, though. The NT does not mention spending money for air conditioning/heating or stain glassed windows. How can you possibly spend money/ have worship like the NT church when our lives are so very different?

 

That's something that is discussed in a lot of circles within the CofC. There's a great book called Radical Restoration by F. LaGard Smith that discusses this idea in depth. It's really interesting to think about. Take it a step beyond air conditioning - what about church buildings in general? Communion certainly wasn't wafers and little plasic cups of juice.

[emzhengjiu]

The New Testament church would have used wine for communion, not grape juice. I guess using grape juice is a wider Protestant issue, not limited to the CofC.

 

Ann

[hollyh]

EVERY COC is DIFFERENT! There is no way to say what a CoC believes b/c it is not a denomination in the same way as Methodists, Baptists, etc.

 

I grew up CoC (not now) but never knew there were people who didn't believe people who attended non CoC churches wouldn't go to heaven. We went to events put on by other churches, etc. The only thing I thought was different from our church was that we did not have instrumental music. Most in our church said it was more of a personal preference and not a biblical mandate...

[TranquilMind]

We have some acquaintances that seem very intent on sharing the gospel with us. We have tried convincing them that we really like Jesus, too, but we seemed to have reached an impasse. DH thinks it's sorta funny because most of the people he works with considers us borderline crazy fundamentals (homeschooling, pregnant with fourth kid, church every week, etc). However, this family doesn't seem to even consider us christians.

 

My mom grew up church of christ many moons ago and later switched to baptist. She said her mom was convinced she had doomed her family to hell. I'm just wondering if that belief is still held by some? I'm not sure how to get this family to respect our beliefs short of switching to their church. And, we're quite happy being presbyterian.

 

Any thoughts? Or advice on how to handle it?

 

And no offense meant to anyone who is church of christ. I have lots of other coc friends and this has never come up before!

I used to debate with someone in a CoC chat room, back when msn had chat rooms. At any rate, yes, he and his group there, at least, believed that you weren't really fully in Christ unless you were CoC and baptized in the CoC church.

[TranquilMind]

I do believe there may be different sects of the Church of Christ, just like all Baptists do not believe the same...but from my experience (grandfather was Church of Christ, some cousins, and my next door neighbors) yes, they do believe that. They also do not believe in singing with instruments..I dated one in college (very briefly) who wanted to go and meet my parents (6 hour drive and had only been out two or three times officially)...before that, (he should have had a clue that I was a rebel) he invited me to his Sunday night church service, I wore a nice pants outfit....Baptists always wore pants and all the other churches I visited especially on Sunday night service. He was too embarrassed to ask me to change and you should have seen the looks I received...oh and in his church women do not speak up, it was an informal message and the pastor was asking questions, I spoke up just as the other men had, but was later told that women are not allowed to speak up in service? That should have been my clue to exit..just not my way to express my faith. But, when he drove me home I expected him to go to my parent's church for Sunday service, he tells me at 10pm on Saturday night that he is not 'allowed' to go to other churches??? HUH? So, being the nice girl I was I took him around to check out local Church of Christ churches...I found FIVE! We were in the Bible belt....but he nixed all five because they had church buses..he said it was against the church's beliefs to own buses..that it is the responsibility of the members to pick up those who need a ride....We were out until midnight looking for a church.

My mom let us 'sleep in' knowing that we had been out late looking for a church and cooked a big breakfast, he never said he would go to my church so we just assumed he didn't want to go so we did not want to pressure him...he said it was the first time he had missed church in 20 years...needless to say, the ride back was very quiet and awkward....I am SURE he was not indicative of all Church of Christ, but on a whole, they can be quite exclusionary in their thinking.

Wow, what an experience! I kind of like that this guy took you to his church wearing ...gasp...pants, though. That took some guts in that group.

[Parrothead]

Dh grew up CoC. Every single time I visited his parents church, the message was the same. All the rest of us (Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists, etc) were going to hell, because we worshipped false gods, and only CoC was the real church. So yes, you are considered not real Christians. How to handle it? Tell them you appreciate their concern, but you don't wish or feel a need to be saved, that Jesus has already taken care of that for you. :D

Wow! I thought the RCC were the only ones to get that. :D

[Xuzi]

Wow! I thought the RCC were the only ones to get that. :D

 

Try being LDS. :tongue_smilie:

[Parrothead]

Try being LDS. :tongue_smilie:

:lol:

[God IS]

Some would say that being part of a group that has only been around for 100 years or so (any group, not just singling out yours) as foundationally "man made." Any such group may have studied and interpreted the Bible according to personal understanding (most Christian groups/denominations believe they are "clinging to the NT," but they all look quite different, so somewhere there's a disconnect), and what was created was created out of this understanding -- i.e., by man, based on what he believes the Bible means. To me, a church that claims to be the "restored" church of Christ is flawed foundationally -- it presupposes that the church that God created at Pentecost was forsaken by Him at some point, a supposition that is unbiblical in itself. I can't go there -- I have to believe in a church that has existed from day one and still exists (unified similar to the way you describe the CoC, but not unified only at present, but also throughout the 2000 year history of the church).

 

I realize you and others won't probably agree with this and that's fine! Truly, I'm not about judging denominations. I just don't really like seeing the phrase "man-made" bandied about in such a way. Unless the group/denomination is tied in historically and apostolically to the original church (and yes, I do have an opinion on which church that is, but whether I'm right or not doesn't change my argument), the group has some man-made tradition at its core.

 

I'll try to clarify my point of view on the "restored" church vs. the original church founded on pentacost.

 

I(personally) do also believe that God would not have forsaken His church. I beleieve that the church has existed throughout history, dieing out in someplaces, and springing up in other places--wherever people beging to look at the scriptures for what they say, not for what other people say that they say. (Whew. that was a weird sentence!) Studying the pattern laid out in Acts for church workings and worship.

 

Mr. Campbell, who began the most widespread "restoration" movement didn't actually restore or start the church--but help to lead a widespread movement to restore the practices of church work and worship back to what we see in the earliest recorded church history (the book of Acts).

 

Also--I know of many folks who do not identify with the coC or any denomination for that matter, who, by my observations, appear to try to worship and live according the the NT pattern.

 

So I guess that you could say that I do not believe that only coC members are going to Heaven BUT I do feel that many are putting their souls in danger by identifying with other churches(denominations and no-denominational) who do not worship God according to what we see in the Bible.

 

 

Can I just say how nice it is that this thread is so polite :001_smile:

[ktgrok]

I'll try to clarify my point of view on the "restored" church vs. the original church founded on pentacost.

 

I(personally) do also believe that God would not have forsaken His church. I beleieve that the church has existed throughout history, dieing out in someplaces, and springing up in other places--wherever people beging to look at the scriptures for what they say, not for what other people say that they say. (Whew. that was a weird sentence!) Studying the pattern laid out in Acts for church workings and worship.

 

Mr. Campbell, who began the most widespread "restoration" movement didn't actually restore or start the church--but help to lead a widespread movement to restore the practices of church work and worship back to what we see in the earliest recorded church history (the book of Acts).

 

Also--I know of many folks who do not identify with the coC or any denomination for that matter, who, by my observations, appear to try to worship and live according the the NT pattern.

 

So I guess that you could say that I do not believe that only coC members are going to Heaven BUT I do feel that many are putting their souls in danger by identifying with other churches(denominations and no-denominational) who do not worship God according to what we see in the Bible.

 

 

Can I just say how nice it is that this thread is so polite :001_smile:

 

Here is my confusion. If you look to Acts, then say that anything not there shouldn't be used in worship...doesn't that mean that we shouldn't use air conditioning in our churches. Or electricity. Or wear shoes with velcro. Or whatever?

[Avila]

Here is my confusion. If you look to Acts, then say that anything not there shouldn't be used in worship...doesn't that mean that we shouldn't use air conditioning in our churches. Or electricity. Or wear shoes with velcro. Or whatever?

 

I agree.

 

What about holding everything in common? Selling all you have and giving it to the church? No church buildings just all believers meeting in homes?

 

The early Christians did not post their entire liturgy in the Bible. There are other places to look for it, in liturgical documents and in the writings of the early church fathers. But they lived a long time, worshipping and fellowshipping when there was no agreed upon New Testament, and even before some of it was written or compiled. So to say that everything THEY needed to live and worship was in the Bible ignores the fact that they had no agreed upon New Testament at the time and that the writers of the New Testament were certainly living out their faith in Christian communities before the whole New Testament was written.

 

You can have a church without the Bible, but you could not have gotten the Bible without the Church. Saying that all practices have to come from a group of documents not even completely in existence at the time seems a little short-sighted. Of course, we need the Bible. But it was compiled as a liturgical document, as the approved list of writings to be read aloud during liturgical celebrations. So to say that the people compiling it, who were having these celebrations before and during the compilation of it, were behaving somehow un-Biblically by not modeling themselves on it seems flawed to me.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Asenik

[staceyobu]

 

Also--I know of many folks who do not identify with the coC or any denomination for that matter, who, by my observations, appear to try to worship and live according the the NT pattern.

 

So I guess that you could say that I do not believe that only coC members are going to Heaven BUT I do feel that many are putting their souls in danger by identifying with other churches(denominations and no-denominational) who do not worship God according to what we see in the Bible.

 

 

Can I just say how nice it is that this thread is so polite :001_smile:

 

What practices of a church would you view as putting someone in danger of hell? What scripture shows this danger?

Edited February 13, 2012 by staceyobu

[chepyl]

I'll try to clarify my point of view on the "restored" church vs. the original church founded on pentacost.

 

I(personally) do also believe that God would not have forsaken His church. I beleieve that the church has existed throughout history, dieing out in someplaces, and springing up in other places--wherever people beging to look at the scriptures for what they say, not for what other people say that they say. (Whew. that was a weird sentence!) Studying the pattern laid out in Acts for church workings and worship.

 

Mr. Campbell, who began the most widespread "restoration" movement didn't actually restore or start the church--but help to lead a widespread movement to restore the practices of church work and worship back to what we see in the earliest recorded church history (the book of Acts).

 

Also--I know of many folks who do not identify with the coC or any denomination for that matter, who, by my observations, appear to try to worship and live according the the NT pattern.

 

So I guess that you could say that I do not believe that only coC members are going to Heaven BUT I do feel that many are putting their souls in danger by identifying with other churches(denominations and no-denominational) who do not worship God according to what we see in the Bible.

 

 

Can I just say how nice it is that this thread is so polite :001_smile:

 

 

Jesus told us to worship God with all of our heart, mind, and soul. God also gives people gifts of music (both vocal and instrumental) and dance. I feel the closest to God when I am singing or dancing. Someone who plays the piano, guitar, drums, etc may have the same feeling about their instrument. They may not be able to worship with all that is in them without their instrument. If God gives us a gift, should we not use it in praise of Him? This is how I view music and dance in worship.

 

I am not the type to dance down the aisles during church service, but when I am alone, that is what I do.