What would you have done in this situation? (out of control child)

[mom2att]

She may not have (or need) a diagnosis, but she sounds explosive. I found the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene very helpful and it explains why punishments don't work and why they escalate behavior, as you saw.

 

I agree with the others about protein. It can help, as can fish oil, if you can get your DD to take supplements (Trader Joe's has a fish oil gummy and my DS took them for awhile, but eventually just couldn't stomach them).

 

What really helps is learning how to help your child through these feelings and going easy on her in the moment and then dealing with things later, coming up with solutions together to help prevent tantrums from happening. It's also really helpful to see things from her side. She picked up a piece of the box that her sister tossed aside, she's looking at it--why can't she do that? Why does she have to immediately give it to her sister? These might be things she's feeling and I'm sure it feels very unfair to her, even if others in the family don't quite see it that way.

 

It's hard, because the behavior can be really difficult sometimes, and you can feel like it's unacceptable and you must put a stop to it, but good luck doing that once she's upset, especially if you're going with a hard-nosed approach. I really do think, from experience, that Ross Greene's advice is spot on. My son is 10 now and is so much better.

 

:iagree: This book helped me understand my son, and a spoonful of peanut butter helped him when he felt an "explosive" moment was at hand. There was a point as well when we removed all artificial flavors and colors from his diet and saw a huge change in his behavior. He has since outgrown that, and as he has gotten older he has learned to handle his own explosive moments. But the book helped me help him in the meantime.

 

Punishments, spanking, humiliation by videoing the meltdown and showing it later . . . these never worked for us and only made things worse. Kids like this truly get stuck in the moment and cannot let go and move beyond it. My son was NEVER wrong either, and he could hold a grudge for days. He has gotten so much better as he has gotten older, but only when I took the time to really understand what he was going through and help him find a way out of it. Ross Greene's book did that for me--in every page I saw my son.

Edited January 29, 2012 by mom2att

[lailasmum]

My 7 year old has these meltdowns. Less often these days but she has had a couple this last week. I think the food thing definitely plays a part, she seems to need to be on a perfectly even keel food and sleep wise else she can't control herself. I just send her to her room to calm down and feed her something. However it takes a while before she will calm down and eat unless I catch it in the first few seconds becuse she wont listen to me.

 

Its really hard out in public. She had one at the pool last night. But I think it was because of using up a ton of energy in the pool and she probably should have eaten a snack just prior to going in even though we were eating immediately after we got out. The minute she got some food in her it was over and she was happy again.

Edited January 29, 2012 by lailasmum

[TravelingChris]

Well she sounds like my ADHD second daughter and once we got her on correct medications, there simply were no more meltdowns. That was what it took and nothing else worked.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

The only way to handle and tame my son during a meltdown is to restrain him. Normally I can figure out the antecedent, and it's not always him being "bad". There's usually some amount of antagonizing going on.

[TXMomof4]

She doesn't have a diagnosis. But she still may have something--just undiagnosed. Or maybe not.

 

My kid that had tantrums like that has a diagnosis.

 

 

Anyway, look at the food stuff people are suggesting. You might consider eliminating dyes and artificial perservatives from her diet. None of my dc do well with artificial flavors or dyes. The dc I refer to above has obvious behavior problems related to dyes. And make sure the child has enough protein--as the other posters are saying.

 

I think when a child's diet is cleaned up, you have a more accurate baseline to consider, when evaluating the child's behavior.

 

:iagree: My dd used to LOVE strawberry milk. And she was a holy terror. We removed red dye specifically and saw a huge improvement. Now, she has also been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder with OCD tendencies, but even without that (we're talking a span of 2 years here) I could TELL when she had had kool-aid at a party or whatever. She eats more natural food and it does make a huge difference in her behavior.

 

ETA: When we were in the midst of a meltdown I would get her to a quiet place and rub her back. It would bring her back to the realm of humans and she could get control of her emotions way quicker. I know that's not always feasible, but even in the car, we would stop I'd get her in my lap and just rub her back for a few minutes.

Edited January 29, 2012 by TXMomof4

[Haiku]

Any ideas or advice?

 

First of all, I would have her evaluated by a pediatrician to make sure there are no medical issues going on. You said she is a "typical" child, but "typical" 7 year olds don't act this way, repeatedly. Typical 2 year olds do.

 

I would also put her in bed for the rest of the day every time this happens. I wouldn't try to make this a natural or logical consequence. I would simply tell her, "Every time you throw a fit like that, you will be in bed for the rest of the day." Don't make exceptions or excuses.

 

Neither would I try bargaining with her to get her to stop. I would not impose escalating consequences when she doesn't. I wouldn't give her any attention at all. I would turn my back and walk away. Were I your dh in the situation you described, I would have taken the other two children and walked 10 feet away from the car and completely ignored the fit-throwing child.

 

Tara

[Dmmetler]

:grouphug:

 

What is it about age 7? I swear, we've had more stress, tears, and general bad behavior since DD turned 7 than we had in ages 5 and 6 combined!

 

In general, my policy is to get the kid out of the situation and deal with it once everyone has calmed down. And usually around here, anything with a screen is the first to go.

Edited January 29, 2012 by dmmetler

[melissel]

Christus, I have no advice beyond what others have given. I just wanted to add my own personal experience. You mentioned that you just came from dinner and that she'd had macaroni and cheese. Unless you're positive that the mac and cheese was all natural, I'd start cleaning up her diet as a first step toward getting rid of the meltdowns. All natural foods, no artificial colors, flavors, preservatives, sulfites, etc. The very worst experience of my life with my DD6 was after a meal of mac and cheese. (Coincidentally, it was also in a parking lot with plenty of people observing. She tripped me, bit me, ran screaming away from me--it was bad. You can search for it here, I posted about it in what ended up being a fairly long thread.) It turns out that yellow food dyes make her absolutely insane. Reds make her hard to live with, but yellows...she's like Mr. Hyde.

 

Just the other night, because things have been going pretty well, I let her have mac and cheese at a restaurant. The next two days were awful, and the two days after those were still pretty hard--she was hyper and unable to settle herself up, bouncing off walls and speaking snottily to all of us four days after the meal. If your daughter is ingesting dyes (or whatever she's sensitive to) in some form even every few days, you would see the effects in her pretty much all the time. Even "caramel coloring" has shown itself to be a problem here. In spite of its name, it's a processed chemical concoction, just like the others.

 

Lots of people here have kids with food dye issues. At least one mom has a kid sensitive to sulfites, which are in just about everything too. Consider her diet carefully. It made a world of difference in my DD6--when I figured this all out, I was literally gathering names and numbers of psychiatrists to get her an evaluation and wondering how she'd ever live in the world successfully if she harbored so much rage.

 

Outside of the diet...I have nothing. You've gotten lots of great advice, so hopefully something will be right for her :grouphug:

Edited January 29, 2012 by melissel

[MamaSheep]

I haven't read all the responses yet, but this book has some helpful advice: http://www.amazon.com/More-Meltdowns-Strategies-Out---Control/dp/1932565620/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1327852311&sr=8-1

[Quiver0f10]

When a child is out of control to that degree, I don't think that giving consequences help. I would have: removed the baby from the seat next to her and the other children from the car and gone with them into the store. I would have left one adult with her in the quiet closed van. After that, I'm not sure. I've had different things work for different things. For one child, having them take deep breaths to get themself under control, worked. Once the fit was over, I would have had one consequence - not going to get the surprise since the outing to the store included that - but would not have piled up the other consequences.

 

 

:iagree:

[Parrothead]

What would I have done? I would have taken her home immediately, calmly walked her up to her room and calmly shut the door. When she was done she could come out. Of course, this is the rule and has been since day 1 so dd already knows what happens when one has a fit.

 

When she was done she would have had a consequence for loosing her temper. I'm sorry but one can not go through life behaving like that. There will be consequences for behaving badly as an adult. There are consequences for behaving badly as a child.

 

There is a split second of rational thought that occurs before things get to that point. Choosing to turn it into a fit demands a consequence.

 

For you at that point the consequence would have been going straight home without getting the present from Aunt. Consequences also need to be discussed when everyone is calm. You can't just pile on during a tantrum. Just calmly let her know that there will be a consequence anytime she escalates. Give examples of consequences. If you see it coming you can calmly and matter of factly remind her that there will be a consequence. You might even going so far as rewarding the pulling back from a tantrum.

 

If these type fits are still going on past toddlerhood, I'd look at the diet. Food dyes are often a culprit. As others have stated, lack of protein. (one can get sufficient protein with a vegetarian diet) may be a problem. Too much sugar may also be a problem. Along with any food additives. I'd make sure she has a very clean diet of whole foods. Even a picky eater (that is a whole 'nuther thread) can survive on baked chicken, apples and rice (with a multivitamin) until his tastes mature.

 

I would also make sure she is getting proper rest and exercise.

 

I think several lessons on proper behavior would be in order over the next few weeks/months. Practice doing what one is told to do (as opposed to asked) by a parent. Practice asking a parent for a few moments to finish what one is doing. Practice calling out, "Just one moment, please." from various parts of the house. Practice stopping what one is doing immediately. Practice with both your 7 and your 4 year old. Have them both practice snatching and returning kindly with an apology.

 

Practice over and over so that the proper response becomes second nature. As humans we have this thing called muscle memory. It is a handy thing to develop in all sorts of situations.

 

Also practice what to do if one comes across a foreign situation. Over the next year or so your kiddo learns how to handle herself with her sister and parents. Then comes along the new toddler. Or if next month she makes a new friend and the new friend makes her angry.

 

I hope something in the book I've written will help.

[Maus]

I fourth or fifth or whatever number it's become now, the protein. My ds will now stop himself, say "I need a snack" and it does wonders for preventing meltdowns. I'd say it's because of hypoglycemia that they need some protein.

Yes. My son actually has a diagnosis of "reactive hypoglycemia." It is a subset of hypoglycemia in which the body produces too much insulin after certain meals, often a meal which is high in carbs with little or no protein.

 

I probably have regular hypoglycemia: I get head-achy, droopy, and irritable. My son gets either really bouncing-off-the-walls wound-up or has extreme melt-downs.

 

The solution is more frequent, smaller meals that include protein. Children often need something about every three hours. Some advocate low- or no-carb, but my son does best with roughly equal carb to protein, like a hot dog in a bun for a "main" meal, or a cracker with peanut butter for a snack. There is a wiki about it here.

 

His peak of awful, melt-down behavior was at about age seven, which is also when he was diagnosed.

 

I asked his doctor about it after reading a book about misdiagnosis in gifted kids. I disagree the authors' assertion that it appears mostly in highly gifted kids. My son happens to be gifted, but not likely 160 IQ, like they are talking about, and I've talked to mothers of regular to bright kids who have it, too.

 

He is now nine. He still has occasional melt-downs, but has learned to recognize* the early signs, so he often gets himself a snack, or asks for one if we are out. ("Mom, I think I'm getting reactive!") I do have to watch his food choices a little, because his favorite food is ramon, which (like mac and cheese) has no real protein. It just tastes like it does! I keep "Instant Breakfast" on hand at home and a flat of meal replacement shakes in my trunk for those, "Oh, man! Has it really been six hours since we ate?!" emergencies.

 

---

Another poster mentioned dye allergies. That's a possibility, too. My nephew is allergic to blue dye. He gets pounding migraine-like headaches when he eats it. He's 17 now, but was about nine when they discovered his allergy. I don't know his behavior symptoms, though, as they lived six hours from us when he was young (and four hours from us now).

 

---

*ETA: Because he can recognize what his body is doing, he is beginning to be able to control his behavior, as long as he catches it in the early stages. His melt-downs now tend to happen in the middle of family outings, when we've been so busy doing something fun that time has gotten away from all of us.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Maus
one typo; one new thought

[melissel]

What would I have done? I would have taken her home immediately, calmly walked her up to her room and calmly shut the door.

 

This is the problem I always have with this advice. (And I'm not picking on you specifically, because it's common advice. I'm just questioning in general based on my own experience.) How do you walk a kicking, screaming, flailing, defiant child calmly to her room and calmly shut the door? In my experience, this ultimately resulted (thankfully, it hasn't happened in a long time) in my getting hurt, her getting hurt, and me holding onto the door handle from the outside and leaning back with all my weight while she tries to pull it open from the inside. I don't see how this can be a solution in the scenario described. How do you manage to accomplish this? Does your tantruming/melting-down child go compliantly into her rooom when you do this? I've had mine attach herself by all four limbs to the doorframe like a cartoon cat over a bathtub!

[KS_]

She may not have (or need) a diagnosis, but she sounds explosive. I found the book The Explosive Child by Ross Greene very helpful and it explains why punishments don't work and why they escalate behavior, as you saw.

 

I agree with the others about protein. It can help, as can fish oil, if you can get your DD to take supplements (Trader Joe's has a fish oil gummy and my DS took them for awhile, but eventually just couldn't stomach them).

 

What really helps is learning how to help your child through these feelings and going easy on her in the moment and then dealing with things later, coming up with solutions together to help prevent tantrums from happening. It's also really helpful to see things from her side. She picked up a piece of the box that her sister tossed aside, she's looking at it--why can't she do that? Why does she have to immediately give it to her sister? These might be things she's feeling and I'm sure it feels very unfair to her, even if others in the family don't quite see it that way.

 

It's hard, because the behavior can be really difficult sometimes, and you can feel like it's unacceptable and you must put a stop to it, but good luck doing that once she's upset, especially if you're going with a hard-nosed approach. I really do think, from experience, that Ross Greene's advice is spot on. My son is 10 now and is so much better.

 

This book was really instrumental in helping me with ds. I'd been using the techniques in Transforming the Difficult Child, and those helped a lot, but there was still a puzzle piece missing in regards to his behavior. The Explosive Child helped me discover what that was. And things have been so much better since then. He was old enough at the time that I could explain to him about his frustration tolerance and he could see that I was really trying to help.

 

And I do agree about the protein - we discussed that, too, and he started to notice that he felt better it he paid attention to what he was eating and made sure he had protein for breakfast before starting school, for example.

[2squared]

I think your solution has to directly relate to the cause of the tantrum.

 

My 7yo still has tantrums similar to this, and punishing him out of it will.not.work. Punishing him after the fact will.not.work. Punishment doesn't work because the tantrums aren't caused by misbehavior. He has triggers that push him over the edge, and I consciously work to identify the triggers and get him out of situations before he has a meltdown. My 7yo struggles with being away from home for long periods of time, crowds, and commotion. If he is experiencing those triggers and he is tired, we know we are at risk of him getting pushed over the edge by any little thing.

 

I can totally see my 7yo behaving like that if we had been out shopping or socializing the day. If his sib had opened a present and thrown the packaging on the floor of the vehicle he would have thought (1) it's trash, (2) sib doesn't want the trash, and (3) sib isn't supposed to throw trash on the floor. So he would have picked it up to look at it before putting the trash wherever it was supposed to go. If sib had gotten upset over trash and my 7yo was the one forced to give up the trash, he would have viewed that has very unfair and illogical. The unfairness would have pushed him over the edge.

 

At that point the tantrum would have been as much our fault as his since we know his triggers and we didn't help him manage his reaction. We would have taken him home and helped him to calm down. Then we would have walked through the situation and dissected other solutions for him. My 7yo hates loosing control, so he is very receptive to this approach.

 

I write this fresh from a day of family shopping yesterday. We ate dinner out, and as soon as my 7yo was done eating dinner, he was obviously bordering on a meltdown. He was completely and utterly done. He needed to be home. We distracted him with a couple things in the restaurant and then dh took him out to the van while everyone else finished up and got out the door.

[JFSinIL]

My oldest dd was like that - when small, and at home, only a splash of cold water in her face could stop her rage long enough for her to get a hold of herself and calm down. The pediatric neuro we were using at the time (for SillyAutismBoy) saw her and said quite possibly she could end up bi-polar as a teen (she was hiding under the exam table at the time, yelling that he was a "BAD DOCTOR!!!" -he had never been reamed out by a three-year-old before!)

 

Years later, after living on tenderhooks with this kid (and she went back to public school a few weeks into 5th grade as it just was NOT working to be around each other 24/7 - and not fair to the other kids at home (she seemed to hold her self together around peers and other adults :glare: then melt when back home) she did get a diagnosis of the milder type of bi-polar. Of course, as soon as she turned 18 she refused to take meds....will be interesting to see if she can hold it together and function when she has to work full-time and support herself after May high school graduation!!!

 

My point is, if increasing protein, etc. as folks mention above does not work, she may indeed have something going on that warrants medical intervention. You can not punish or reason a person out of being bi-polar or ???, etc. etc.

Edited January 29, 2012 by JFSinIL

[Parrothead]

This is the problem I always have with this advice. (And I'm not picking on you specifically, because it's common advice. I'm just questioning in general based on my own experience.) How do you walk a kicking, screaming, flailing, defiant child calmly to her room and calmly shut the door? In my experience, this ultimately resulted (thankfully, it hasn't happened in a long time) in my getting hurt, her getting hurt, and me holding onto the door handle from the outside and leaning back with all my weight while she tries to pull it open from the inside. I don't see how this can be a solution in the scenario described. How do you manage to accomplish this? Does your tantruming/melting-down child go compliantly into her rooom when you do this? I've had mine attach herself by all four limbs to the doorframe like a cartoon cat over a bathtub!

The most important thing is to not engage.

 

At 7 (OP's dd's age) I could still pick her up and carry her in the firefighter carry. If not dh could have done it.

 

But if I tried to to that now I'd break myself since she is 5'5" and 145 pounds. But if she didn't listen to "Go to your room." I'd just walk away and not engage. I wouldn't look at her. I wouldn't speak to her. If I had to I'd go sit on the front porch. If she destroyed things in my house she would have to suffer the consequences when she was finished.

 

What do you do when she does the cat-like thing?

[Julie Smith]

This is the problem I always have with this advice. (And I'm not picking on you specifically, because it's common advice. I'm just questioning in general based on my own experience.) How do you walk a kicking, screaming, flailing, defiant child calmly to her room and calmly shut the door? In my experience, this ultimately resulted (thankfully, it hasn't happened in a long time) in my getting hurt, her getting hurt, and me holding onto the door handle from the outside and leaning back with all my weight while she tries to pull it open from the inside. I don't see how this can be a solution in the scenario described. How do you manage to accomplish this? Does your tantruming/melting-down child go compliantly into her rooom when you do this? I've had mine attach herself by all four limbs to the doorframe like a cartoon cat over a bathtub!

 

I wouldn't have a clue either if I had to do such a thing. My 7 year old (not even 7 1/2 at the time) was 65 pounds, and 133cm. That is half my weight! No way I could carry him around if he didn't want to be, I even have trouble carrying him around when he wants to be carried.

 

I more then sometimes envy those with lighter weight children.

[EmilyK]

The Explosive Child was very helpful to me. It turned out that once we removed certain foods, my son was tons easier. The book helped me see it was better to get to the root cause than pile on punishments.

[melissel]

The most important thing is to not engage.

 

At 7 (OP's dd's age) I could still pick her up and carry her in the firefighter carry. If not dh could have done it.

 

But if I tried to to that now I'd break myself since she is 5'5" and 145 pounds. But if she didn't listen to "Go to your room." I'd just walk away and not engage. I wouldn't look at her. I wouldn't speak to her. If I had to I'd go sit on the front porch. If she destroyed things in my house she would have to suffer the consequences when she was finished.

 

What do you do when she does the cat-like thing?

 

Hmm. See, with mine, simply saying, "You need to take this to your room now" or in any other way attempting to get her to go to her room would be engaging. That alone would have amped her up to screaming, flailing level. Ignoring her might have worked, but it would have depended on who else was in the room. DD9 was frequently the target of her rage. Also, many meltdowns started when we were outside the house, so by the time we got home, we were already in screaming, flailing mode. I couldn't leave her in the garage--it was too dangerous. I probably could have fireman-carried her (DH was never home for these endearing moments, and he has less patience anyway), but she was a biter, so that left me open to injury, and her bedroom is down a narrow hallway, so she could also have injured herself trying to get away from me. And once I got her in room, there was the problem of keeping her there. It was a dilemma, for sure, and I'm so grateful it doesn't happen anymore (we eliminated food dyes from her diet, huuuuuuuuge difference).

 

When she did the cat-like thing, I pried her hands and feet off the door and shoved her in, then I went in after her and shut the door behind me and sat with her on the bed, but that was still engaging to her. I admit that three times (I hang my head in shame), I spanked her. I am an avid anti-spanking advocate, and knowing what I know now, I feel so horrible about it (all three times she had food dye in her system from some source), but those three times, like another poster said, it was like a hard reboot. It was the only thing that snapped her out of it and stopped the physical aspect of the altercation. She would break down crying in her bed and either fall asleep or come out remorseful later and we could hug and talk. The mac-and-cheese time, I finally got her in her room, but she kept coming out and screaming at me more and grabbing my arms. It was horrible and lives in infamy as "the Barnes & Noble incident." That was, thankfully, the last experience.

 

None of the conventional advice ever worked for me with her, so I could never figure out whose kids they DID work for! And the How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen style advice never did either. I always figured I must be doing something wrong *sigh*

[2squared]

When she did the cat-like thing, I pried her hands and feet off the door and shoved her in, then I went in after her and shut the door behind me and sat with her on the bed, but that was still engaging to her. I admit that three times (I hang my head in shame), I spanked her. I am an avid anti-spanking advocate, and knowing what I know now, I feel so horrible about it (all three times she had food dye in her system from some source), but those three times, like another poster said, it was like a hard reboot. It was the only thing that snapped her out of it and stopped the physical aspect of the altercation. She would break down crying in her bed and either fall asleep or come out remorseful later and we could hug and talk. The mac-and-cheese time, I finally got her in her room, but she kept coming out and screaming at me more and grabbing my arms. It was horrible and lives in infamy as "the Barnes & Noble incident." That was, thankfully, the last experience.

 

None of the conventional advice ever worked for me with her, so I could never figure out whose kids they DID work for! And the How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen style advice never did either. I always figured I must be doing something wrong *sigh*

 

I completely understand. Kids having these tantrums at these ages aren't logical. When my 7yo is melting down, there's no way I can carry him to his room. Like you said, even if I did manage to get him there, how do I keep him in there when I have a houseful of younger kids who need me? It's not like meltdowns happen at a convenient time when everyone else will be safely occupied for 10-20 minutes.

 

We have determined that we need to proactively manage the triggers so the meltdowns don't happen, and if they do happen, we clear the area until he can settle down. Then I go to him and hold him while he cries. When he's recovered, we have a post-op discussion. I think it's important to realize that the kids feel just as miserable about these episodes as we do. Well, at least mine does. He tells me how his body gets all tight and hot and how much he hates feeling that way. :sad: I can't punish those physical reactions out of him, but I can work with him to help him manage them before they become overwhelming.

[melissel]

It's not like meltdowns happen at a convenient time when everyone else will be safely occupied for 10-20 minutes.

 

Totally. And poor DD9! She's so sensitive, and watching all of this unfold always made her cry too! I'll never forget the look of horror on her face when I spanked DD6 (I think she was 4 then) for the first time :(

 

We have determined that we need to proactively manage the triggers so the meltdowns don't happen, and if they do happen, we clear the area until he can settle down. Then I go to him and hold him while he cries. When he's recovered, we have a post-op discussion. I think it's important to realize that the kids feel just as miserable about these episodes as we do. Well, at least mine does. He tells me how his body gets all tight and hot and how much he hates feeling that way. :sad: I can't punish those physical reactions out of him, but I can work with him to help him manage them before they become overwhelming.

 

:iagree: If you offer DD6 anything that's obviously yellow or pink now, she will decline it, even if it's something she really wants. I knew she hated all of that too, and she had no idea how to control any of it. In the aftermath, sometimes she'd cry and ask me what was wrong with her :crying: I am so grateful we figured it out. She'll always be a headstrong kid, but now there's no rage component to Every. Little. Thing. And like you said, I do still have to manage the triggers (stores and shopping are big ones, but they are for me too!), but that's much easier now.

[Parrothead]

Hmm. See, with mine, simply saying, "You need to take this to your room now" or in any other way attempting to get her to go to her room would be engaging. That alone would have amped her up to screaming, flailing level. Ignoring her might have worked, but it would have depended on who else was in the room. DD9 was frequently the target of her rage. Also, many meltdowns started when we were outside the house, so by the time we got home, we were already in screaming, flailing mode. I couldn't leave her in the garage--it was too dangerous. I probably could have fireman-carried her (DH was never home for these endearing moments, and he has less patience anyway), but she was a biter, so that left me open to injury, and her bedroom is down a narrow hallway, so she could also have injured herself trying to get away from me. And once I got her in room, there was the problem of keeping her there. It was a dilemma, for sure, and I'm so grateful it doesn't happen anymore (we eliminated food dyes from her diet, huuuuuuuuge difference).

 

When she did the cat-like thing, I pried her hands and feet off the door and shoved her in, then I went in after her and shut the door behind me and sat with her on the bed, but that was still engaging to her. I admit that three times (I hang my head in shame), I spanked her. I am an avid anti-spanking advocate, and knowing what I know now, I feel so horrible about it (all three times she had food dye in her system from some source), but those three times, like another poster said, it was like a hard reboot. It was the only thing that snapped her out of it and stopped the physical aspect of the altercation. She would break down crying in her bed and either fall asleep or come out remorseful later and we could hug and talk. The mac-and-cheese time, I finally got her in her room, but she kept coming out and screaming at me more and grabbing my arms. It was horrible and lives in infamy as "the Barnes & Noble incident." That was, thankfully, the last experience.

 

None of the conventional advice ever worked for me with her, so I could never figure out whose kids they DID work for! And the How to Talk So Your Kids Will Listen style advice never did either. I always figured I must be doing something wrong *sigh*

:grouphug: First off I share your shame for inappropriate spanking. BTDT, have the bad mom of the year trophy hidden in my underwear drawer. You didn't do anything wrong other than not thinking immediately of diet being the cause. And really who thinks of that first? We are taught to think "bratty kid trying to have his way."

 

I also think that there is a difference between what you had to deal with (a child reacting to a foreign substance i.e. food dye.) and a typical temper tantrum. Looking at it from the advantage of distance it is kind of obvious to me that conventional advice wouldn't work. Hence the rest of my post to Christus about the possibility of food dyes and sugar causing that kind of reaction.

 

What I had was a typical 3-year old having her first couple of tantrums and testing boundaries. She did it again at about 9-years old after having seen a friend "get away with it." At that point the whole, "You probably don't remember the rule, but you are supposed to do that in your room, so get yourself there," was all I needed to say.

 

When I was in law enforcement I know of a few incidences where some guy was hyped up on drugs and it took 4 or 5 big guys to bring him down. This is probably closer to what you had on your hands than a typical kid having a temper tantrum. Because the food dye reacted the same way in the body as a drug.

 

:grouphug: I'm glad you have it mostly under control now.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Parrothead

[melissel]

:grouphug: First off I share your shame for inappropriate spanking. BTDT, have the bad mom of the year trophy hidden in my underwear drawer.

 

:grouphug: and :lol:

 

I agree we're talking about two different things (tantrums vs. meltdowns). I honestly don't think I've ever seen either of my kids actually have a tantrum! DD9 has always been incredibly even-keeled. And DD6--well, it was only a year ago that we figured out the food dyes thing, so up until then, I tend to think of her as having a sickness, almost! As to what happened with Christus' daughter, it sounds to me like meltdown, but I guess I'd have to see it to know. It just sounds so much like what DD6 used to go through--all rationality gone from the general vicinity for awhile. I tend to think of tantrums as something the kid can get up and walk away from at any point if they choose to. I wonder which Christus thinks it was?

[SonshineLearner]

I've thought about this since I saw your post....

If I thought she COULD control herself, I would tell her that I know she has the power to control herself, and I expect for her to NOT ever do that again. I would brainstorm through some choices that are appropriate, and then tell her that if she chooses to EVER lose it like that again, that there would be serious consequences. Barring serious problems, I believe that people should keep themselves in line without excuse. Do I think that we should look for preventions? Sure! So if protein helps, great. I would share these options with her, and make them HER responsibility. Perhaps think of a little protein that she could carry in her pocket. Role play for when she "might" need to eat one. BUT, fits that come due to her unwillingness to not obey, are (dis)obedience driven fits.

I would think of some doable consequences for if this happens, and share what kind of consequences you might be willing to use. Perhaps staying with one of the parents at home for a couple of weeks, to "give her time to think" about how she needs to act in public. I'd probably do some treats that you get out and bring home the kids while they're finishing them up... etc.

In years past, I would bring her home and spank her after it's over, but I'm not sure I'd suggest this, now. I don't think that I would put it on the "won't do" list for a child who gets violent. But, I'd try other things first. I would not want to "put up" with a fit throwing child. :(

[Parrothead]

I tend to think of tantrums as something the kid can get up and walk away from at any point if they choose to.

Did you ever see that video of the little boy who was having a tantrum and his mom got up and walked into another room? He quit having the tantrum, got up and followed her then threw himself back on the floor. :lol: Every time she changed rooms he stopped long enough to follow her around the house.

 

When dd was little and having her first tantrums I don't think she could have "stopped it on a dime." They were much more involved than the little boy described above. But what I think dd (and kids who aren't under the influence) have is that split second to make the decision to continue or to take a deep breath.

 

When my PMS was at its hideous worse I know I had that very small window to either express it or to take a walk. It took a while to realize what that window was.

 

That doesn't really sound what Christus described. What she dealt with was more like a drug induced thing.

[WeeBeaks]

My oldest is like this, and still has a major meltdown occasionally (9-1/2). He has psychiatric diagnoses as well though.

 

In addition to the food and stimulation others have mentioned, he is extremely likely to melt down if he is coming down with an illness. Our psychiatrist theorizes that histamines in his body naturally occurring with the illness are revving up his whole system and flooding him. With my son, these meltdowns of epic proportions are likely to happen 3-5 days before illness completely shows itself.

 

The other thing that causes his meltdowns relates to his diagnoses likely (ADHD and bipolar). If he knows there is something exciting happening soon or the next day, he loses control. He just can't seem to keep it together at all. Impulse control in him is poor. If your child, even without a diagnosis, suffers a lack of impulse control, being out all day, excited about a treat, etc., could have led to a meltdown. My child probably would have melted sooner, but any child can just reach the end of their limits that particular day due to a combination of stimuli. Explosive Child talks about this quite a bit.

 

I think you did fine really. I probably would have done as others said and hauled out the other kids to give a very quiet environment with little audience. And we have been known to safety and protectively carry even a heavy child to their room and plop them in it without injury to him or us, even at 9-1/2. At ages 3-6 though I suffered lots of bruises and bites honestly. We just gained practice, unfortunate though that may be.

[fairfarmhand]

I have hypoglycemia. When I get hungry, haven't eaten or have eaten too much sugar and I'm crashing, I get.....irritable. Grouchy. It is like it is that time of the month. I am a very even keeled person. But I have to eat right, and I have to eat often. (every 3-4 hours)

 

I will fall apart if I need to eat (I manifest in crying, not screaming or angry)

 

I can imagine how a child might react if they haven't eaten recently or the right foods. This is the reason I don't buy pop tarts or sugary cereals for breakfast at my house for anyone, not just me.

[matrips]

this isn't a help for that moment (though I have long found out there is no reasoning with a child in that stage; you could threaten to take away priveleges for the next 10 years and they wouldn't be able to calm down.)

 

however, I have found that with a changed diet, my child has so much more control over his emotions/outbursts/upsets that it doesn't get to that point anymore. We started the Feingold Program (www.feingold.org) for him after realizing he doesn't really want to behave like that, but he also didn't have control over himself; he just was unable to stop. He's a different person (much more like his old happy self) on a diet without preservatives, salicycates (sp?), artificial additives etc. So just a thought. I truly believe that chemicals can affect a person, and that some are much more sensitive to them than others. We were on a pretty healthy diet before, but I also didn't know everything to look out for.

[Lovedtodeath]

First of all, I would have her evaluated by a pediatrician to make sure there are no medical issues going on. You said she is a "typical" child, but "typical" 7 year olds don't act this way, repeatedly. Typical 2 year olds do.

 

I would also put her in bed for the rest of the day every time this happens. I wouldn't try to make this a natural or logical consequence. I would simply tell her, "Every time you throw a fit like that, you will be in bed for the rest of the day." Don't make exceptions or excuses.e

Neither would I try bargaining with her to get her to stop. I would not impose escalating consequences when she doesn't. I wouldn't give her any attention at all. I would turn my back and walk away. Were I your dh in the situation you described, I would have taken the other two children and walked 10 feet away from the car and completely ignored the fit-throwing child.

 

Tara

Some children that have problems causing melt-downs need to be taught how to calm down or help to calm down because they cannot do it on their own.

[LeslieAnneLevine]

Some children that have problems causing melt-downs need to be taught how to calm down or help to calm down because they cannot do it on their own.

 

In the book The Explosive Child (Ross Greene) the author likens it to other learning disabilities. You wouldn't send a child with a learning disability to bed for the day because she couldn't read at grade level. It makes no more sense to send an explosive child to bed all day for being explosive, when she cannot help it (even if a meltdown is unpleasant for the whole family in ways not being able to read at grade level could never be).

 

Also, to the OP, not sure if you're dd is sensory seeking, but you might want to look into that too.

[Lovedtodeath]

When she was done she would have had a consequence for loosing her temper. I'm sorry but one can not go through life behaving like that. There will be consequences for behaving badly as an adult.

Well, as an adult who has behaved like that I can tell you that no one has made me go to my room, spanked me, or grounded me. ;)