Bullies

[TXMary2]

What say you......should bullies (repeat offenders) be kicked out of schools? I am disturbed that it always seems to be the victims who have to leave to get relief. Why are bullies allowed to stay in school and disrupt the education and emotional welfare of other students? I say if you are a jerk who can't treat people right, then you're out.

Edited December 7, 2011 by TXMary2

[Chris in VA]

IDK.

Alternative schools are an awful idea, I don't care what people say. A bunch of disfunctional kids lumped together for 4-6 hours a day? BTDT, stupid.

Maybe mandatory counseling for the entire family at a residential treatment center.

:glare: The apple doesn't fall far from the tree sometimes. Not blaming the parents for it ALL the time, but sometimes it's the family culture that's screwed up, too.

 

Yeah, I do agree it's unfair when those that are bullied have to leave. I think part of the problem is that sometimes the bullies present as successful, "beautiful" people. Just MEAN. Sometimes injured in their hearts, yes, but sometimes just MEAN, and nothing will really get to them until their peer groups meet a tipping point, and they all get better.

[Mama2Many4]

I think they should be thrown out of school. I was harassed every day in school so I'm biased.

[Mommyfaithe]

I think they should be thrown out of school. I was harassed every day in school so I'm biased.

 

:iagree: me too...but, I don't think taxpayers should be shouldered with the cost. Seriously....we pay enough for things we don't use. If the kid is thrown out of school....let their parents figure out how to get that child therapy and education.

 

Faithe

[Night Elf]

Oh that is a hard question to answer! My first inclination is to say YES, expel the student. But the reasoning side of me is worried about

 

1) Will that child be written off completely, with no hope of learning better? What kind of adult would he/she become?

 

2) Alternative schools seem like bad places. When I was in high school, it was a scandal to find out someone moved to the alternative school. They definitely became low class trash. Sorry, that may not be correct, but we all thought it anyway.

 

I think they should be severely limited in their movements and activities. First, they shouldn't be allowed to participate in extracurricular activities for a certain time. Activities usually require good grades, I think they should also require good behavior. They should not be allowed many opportunities to be around other kids. When the bell rings for class change, for example, they must remain in the classroom with the teacher while the next group of kids come in, and then be released to get straight to the next class. I don't know if that is truly workable though. They should have to take the seats closest to the teacher. They should have to eat lunch away from the other students.

 

But yes, there is a point where a repeat offender should be thrown out of school. And since law says everyone is entitled to an education, I believe they would have to go to an alternative school. So that is the poll answer I chose.

 

Another idea would be to require the student to spend time at the alternative school, say a quarter/semester, and then be on probation when he/she returns to the regular school.

 

I don't think a good solution will ever be found that works across the board.

[awisha.]

...

1) Will that child be written off completely, with no hope of learning better? What kind of adult would he/she become?

 

...

I think they should be severely limited in their movements and activities. First, they shouldn't be allowed to participate in extracurricular activities for a certain time. Activities usually require good grades, I think they should also require good behavior. They should not be allowed many opportunities to be around other kids. When the bell rings for class change, for example, they must remain in the classroom with the teacher while the next group of kids come in, and then be released to get straight to the next class. I don't know if that is truly workable though. They should have to take the seats closest to the teacher. They should have to eat lunch away from the other students.

 

But yes, there is a point where a repeat offender should be thrown out of school. And since law says everyone is entitled to an education, I believe they would have to go to an alternative school. So that is the poll answer I chose.

 

QUOTE]

 

:iagree: When I went to DD's school to tell them she was leaving, one of their "helpful" suggestions was that she could go to a certain classroom during recess and lunch so she wouldn't have to deal with the boys. Um, why should my daughter, the VICTIM, be put in a room and miss out on her friends and playing while the bullies get to roam the school yard?? Thanks but no thanks.

 

I think the parents of the bullies need to be educated on proper discipline and healthy family relationships. And the victims should not me made to feel like THEY are the problem. :glare:

[Tabrett]

Are we only talking about high school? What about bullies or dc who disrupt class constantly in grade k-3? Most often they have some sort of disorder which makes them untouchable, but they are still bullies and disruptive. How should we deal with them?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

What say you......should bullies (repeat offenders) be kicked out of schools? I am disturbed that it always seems to be the victims who have to leave to get relief. Why are bullies allowed to stay in school and disrupt the education and emotional welfare of other students? I say if you are a jerk who can't treat people right, then you're out.

 

Amen:D:D

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

Are we only talking about high school? What about bullies or dc who disrupt class constantly in grade k-3? Most often they have some sort of disorder which makes them untouchable, but they are still bullies and disruptive. How should we deal with them?

 

IMHO if they are still being like bullies after multiple attempts to correct their behavior and interventions then perhaps they need to be in a separate classroom.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I don't have much sympathy for bullies, but I shudder to think what would become of a person with this problem who is just thrown out of school.

 

I'd assign them an aid who follows them around for awhile teaching them how to behave better. I consider it a type of dysfunction and special need. I'd rather in the end they learn how to behave than to just send them away thinking that that will make the problem go away. To me they need extra help in this department.

 

I do agree with this but if interventions do not work then they need a separate classroom IMHO.

[TXMomof4]

I don't have much sympathy for bullies, but I shudder to think what would become of a person with this problem who is just thrown out of school.

 

I'd assign them an aid who follows them around for awhile teaching them how to behave better. I consider it a type of dysfunction and special need. I'd rather in the end they learn how to behave than to just send them away thinking that that will make the problem go away. To me they need extra help in this department.

 

i don't think it's a dysfunction or special need of the individual. Maybe of society.

 

DD was at ps this year for the first time. She dealt with the name calling because she was a "teacher's pet", the ugly, mean kid making fun of her - she was coming home after Christmas, but I wanted her to stick it out a few more weeks. Then, the boy who had ALREADY been kicked out of school once for inappropriately touching a girl, touched my daughter. That's nothing except bullying taken to an extreme. He knew she was vulnerable and took advantage of it. The school didn't even let me know about the incident - dd came home in tears because she had had to go to the office - nevermind that she was the victim in the situation. When I went to withdraw her from school and talk to the principal, she said "It's hard to do anything to change the situation because the parents think it's funny."

 

Really? Being suspended twice is funny for a 5th grader? It's funny to take advantage of smaller, weaker, quieter, different people? You know the parents laugh it off in a majority of cases. Even the mean boy who just used words, no touching was awful to dd, but no one cared because he was a "good kid". So now, my dd is home. She liked school. She was doing well. But leaving her in an abusive situation is obviously not acceptable to me. Nothing is going to happen to the abuser. Another two weeks out of school - no big deal to anyone on that end, but it changed my dd's course for the whole year.

 

I am very angry that my choices were 1) deal with it or 2) bring dd home. Something of substance should happen to kids who abuse other kids.

[Haiku]

If they are high school aged, throw them out. If you don't want an education, one will not be provided to you at taxpayer expense. I don't think school should be compulsory after 8th grade anyway.

 

Tara

[Serenade]

 

Something of substance should happen to kids who abuse other kids.

 

I agree.

 

I'm not sure what that something should be, but I'm in favor of military type schools for such kids. Yes, separated from others in their own building, with military bootcamp type standards applied for all -- uniforms, neatness, respect, lack of free time, strict standards. All business. And if a kid steps out of line -- push-ups, running, KP, toilet cleaning, that sort of thing.

[TXMary2]

i don't think it's a dysfunction or special need of the individual. Maybe of society.

 

DD was at ps this year for the first time. She dealt with the name calling because she was a "teacher's pet", the ugly, mean kid making fun of her - she was coming home after Christmas, but I wanted her to stick it out a few more weeks. Then, the boy who had ALREADY been kicked out of school once for inappropriately touching a girl, touched my daughter. That's nothing except bullying taken to an extreme. He knew she was vulnerable and took advantage of it. The school didn't even let me know about the incident - dd came home in tears because she had had to go to the office - nevermind that she was the victim in the situation. When I went to withdraw her from school and talk to the principal, she said "It's hard to do anything to change the situation because the parents think it's funny."

 

Really? Being suspended twice is funny for a 5th grader? It's funny to take advantage of smaller, weaker, quieter, different people? You know the parents laugh it off in a majority of cases. Even the mean boy who just used words, no touching was awful to dd, but no one cared because he was a "good kid". So now, my dd is home. She liked school. She was doing well. But leaving her in an abusive situation is obviously not acceptable to me. Nothing is going to happen to the abuser. Another two weeks out of school - no big deal to anyone on that end, but it changed my dd's course for the whole year.

 

I am very angry that my choices were 1) deal with it or 2) bring dd home. Something of substance should happen to kids who abuse other kids.

 

These are the kinds of stories I hear over and over and it is maddening.

 

FTR- I think K-12 they should be kicked out. I am in the let parents figure out how they will be educated to the alternative school camp. At the alternative schools they should have counseling and character training. If they can manage to stay out of conflicts and behave themselves at the alternative school then perhaps they can return to regular school, on probation.

 

I am annoyed by all the anti-bullying campaigning. It is a waste of tax dollars and does nothing to curb bullying. I am tired of hearing stories of children killing themselves because schools and parents do nothing to stop the bullies. Billboards, assemblies and PSA's do not solve anything. Maybe after an assembly children will be temporarily nicer, but after the effect wears off it goes back to the same old same old. Bullying will not stop, therefore the bullies need to be isolated and disciplined. I don't care if I sound harsh. If I hear one more story about a child kiling themselves over bullying, I might explode. Shame on schools who dare to say that bullies "have a right to education too." Fine, great, but not at the expense of good kids who also have a right to an education. A bully free, fear free, emotionally turbulent free education!

 

Bullying was not a reason I pulled my kids to homeschool, but as a child I was bullied and I was always made to feel like I was the one with the problem. It is flipping unacceptable.

[TXMomof4]

I know you are hurt and angry and you think the bully does not deserve any attention that seems special, but if his parents laughed it off, do you want the school to kick him out so he can be with his stupid parents all day? Or maybe even just in the house alone?

 

That doesn't seem like much of a solution to me. Some bullies probably grow up to be ok people. But what about the ones who don't? We just end up paying for their prison accommodations. So either way we pay for their dysfunction.

 

You are right though. I think too many people laugh it off or dismiss the seriousness of it. But what do you expect from a "society" who in large part thinks violence is fun. The audience cheers on hockey players when they beat each other up.

 

Here's the thing with this particular child - his parents want him in the extra-curricular stuff. He's getting ready to try out for the middle school basketball team next year. Shoot - this is a schooll on a military base, so his parents should have to be accountable to the parent's command for the child's behavior. However, there aren't *real* consequences, so there's no real concern on the parents' part. If he can get away with it, why shouldn't he? Right? And while all this is happening, there was a story a few days ago about a 7 yo who is being charged with sexual harrassment for kicking another kid in the groin. That's sexual harrassment, but a 5th grader repeatedly groping girls isn't? There's no consistency of application or consequences for any of it.

[lailasmum]

I agree.

 

I'm not sure what that something should be, but I'm in favor of military type schools for such kids. Yes, separated from others in their own building, with military bootcamp type standards applied for all -- uniforms, neatness, respect, lack of free time, strict standards. All business. And if a kid steps out of line -- push-ups, running, KP, toilet cleaning, that sort of thing.

 

I kind of agree with this. For repeat bullies and maybe as a last resort after some form of therapy for their whole family. Plus therapy should be offered as standard to the victim.

 

I found that my bullies never had any consequences, occasionally a quick telling off/detention but that was it. Nothing that they feared.

[TXMomof4]

I found that my bullies never had any consequences, occasionally a quick telling off/detention but that was it. Nothing that they feared.

 

Exactly!

[jelbe5]

Voted for the alternative school. I worked at a therapeutic day school before we began our family. Overall, the school was good. The class size was small and the staff members were trained to work with troubled children and families. These children had an extended school year with only 7-8 weeks off scattered throughout the year. Counseling and vocational training were part of the program. Very rarely did fights/trouble occur. The students were able to receive more personalized attention. You would think putting so many hard heads together would be disastrous but this was not the case. This school went from K-12.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

If they are high school aged, throw them out. If you don't want an education, one will not be provided to you at taxpayer expense. I don't think school should be compulsory after 8th grade anyway.

 

Tara

 

:iagree: I do tend to agree with this and perhaps high school should not be a given in the sense that it should be a goal that kids work towards. If kids refuse to do their work or behave then perhaps high school should not be an option. Of course, interventions should be tried and special needs taken into consideration.

[Ellie]

They need to be educated, but they don't need to be bullying the general population. Put 'em all together and let them have at each other.

 

If we throw them out on the street they'll just get into trouble, and/or my tax dollars will go to support them on welfare. I'd rather that my tax dollars supported them in some kind of education, in hopes that some day they'll mature and become contributing members of society.

[smilesonly]

other.

 

ideally, bullies should be expelled for a lengthy time along with long-term counseling. their families should have to pay for counseling for their victims, too.

 

realistically, i don't know.

[FaithManor]

I personally feel that they should be put out of school and the parents should be held accountable for their education. This makes the parent address who their child is becoming. Yes, some kids just are so beligerant naturally, that about nothing the parent does will ever change their course. But, the reality is, the rights of other students - even alternative ed - to NOT deal with it, trumps the parents' right to not deal with it.

 

I think some of them could be turned around if their bullying were not tolerated and the consequences were unpleasant enough to consider that behaving appropriately is far better in life than not. But, it needs to happen young enough that change comes fairly easily. By the teen years, I think these patterns a pretty well set unless acted upon by an equal and opposite force...this tends to mean encountering enough people that are tougher than the bully and who can exercise enough force to make them stop which usually means police and jail. Unfortunately, while you can incarcerate them to keep them away from society, the culture within juvenile detention facilities sort of reinforces a "survival of the fittest mentality". So, I really feel the best solution is expel them when they are in elementary school and showing their vicious or potentially vicious nature, and force the parents to take action. A good behavioral child psychologist, tracking that progress and reporting it to the school, etc. If they do well with discipline and counseling, then the school can give them another chance.

 

Victims should not be further victimized by being the ones forced to move.

 

Faith

[TXMary2]

I personally feel that they should be put out of school and the parents should be held accountable for their education. This makes the parent address who their child is becoming. Yes, some kids just are so beligerant naturally, that about nothing the parent does will ever change their course. But, the reality is, the rights of other students - even alternative ed - to NOT deal with it, trumps the parents' right to not deal with it.

 

I think some of them could be turned around if their bullying were not tolerated and the consequences were unpleasant enough to consider that behaving appropriately is far better in life than not. But, it needs to happen young enough that change comes fairly easily. By the teen years, I think these patterns a pretty well set unless acted upon by an equal and opposite force...this tends to mean encountering enough people that are tougher than the bully and who can exercise enough force to make them stop which usually means police and jail. Unfortunately, while you can incarcerate them to keep them away from society, the culture within juvenile detention facilities sort of reinforces a "survival of the fittest mentality". So, I really feel the best solution is expel them when they are in elementary school and showing their vicious or potentially vicious nature, and force the parents to take action. A good behavioral child psychologist, tracking that progress and reporting it to the school, etc. If they do well with discipline and counseling, then the school can give them another chance.

 

Victims should not be further victimized by being the ones forced to move.

 

Faith

 

:iagree:

[myfunnybunch]

I voted Other. I am not even sure what the "Other" should be, exactly.

 

My knee-jerk reaction is kick 'em out and let their parents figure it out. But there are enough persistent bullies whose parents won't care enough that these children won't get an education, period. Not all, understand, but my guess is if I had time to look for actual research, it would show that a significant number of persistent bullies have under- or uninvolved parents. And those kids become all of our problem when they become adults and can't get jobs and start mugging people and selling drugs to make money.

 

I'd be very hesitant to stick them all in the same school, too. Kids learn quickly from one another.

 

But it's unfair to expect the victims to change schools or put up with the behavior in any way.

 

I agree that there needs to be some accountability with real consequences. I'd love to see a system in place that puts these kids to work. Hard work. Community or school service projects, like landscaping and weeding and cleaning the parking lot and scrubbing the gym, in addition to something meaningful like volunteering with animals or the elderly. And I wish the schools had the funds to do some serious behavioral interventions and counseling with the bullies, like FaithManor suggests. (Unfortunately, there isn't enough $, and programs like that would drain existing resources for all of the other students.)

 

Cat

[Audrey]

I have absolutely no sympathy for repeat offender bullies. I say kick them out and let their parents figure out their education.

 

When adults repeatedly assault people, they get removed from society. Society isn't expected to step aside for them. I don't think kids who assault should get any more consideration than that. They've lost their right to attend a public school when they assault other students.

 

I also wonder if being kicked out and making the onus on the parent to manage their education might be a wake up call for the parents who turn a blind eye to their rotten kids' behaviours. If they had to deal with Little Junior Jacka$$ being underfoot all day, or having to send him to private school, maybe they wouldn't be so quick to defend the little $#!t and further enable his bullying.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Audrey
misspelling

[Meriwether]

If they are high school aged, throw them out. If you don't want an education, one will not be provided to you at taxpayer expense. I don't think school should be compulsory after 8th grade anyway.

 

Tara

 

When I taught high school, there were a few students in each class that took a majority of my time. I'm all for having an educated society, but these kids with behavioral problems were ruining the class for everyone else. The school should be able to kick them out. Tell them to go work in a factory for six months and come back if they were ready to learn something.

[lilredmom]

Bullying/mean kid behavior is part of why we pulled our daughter out of public school. These kids are very good at what they do and in manipulating not only other kids, but adults (parents, teachers, principals, etc). The victim (like my daughter) is not versed in these deceptive/mean behaviors and can't adequately stand up for herself against the bully or the adults. In a "no tolerance" environment such as is present in many public schools today, the victim gets punishment for standing up for themselves or fighting back. A major deterrent for a person who has the victim personality. Aside from the old school beating other kids up image of bullying, there is a deeper, more subtle form of bullying going on these days....emotional and psychological. These kids are just plain mean....queen bees and jerks. I hold the parents responsible for this, in large part. They have taught or allowed their children to be this way. In fact, many of their parents are the same way themselves. I don't know what the solution is, that's for sure. But I don't think lumping them all together or following them around for "retraining" is the answer. The change has to start at home.

 

Beth

[Audrey]

I agree. I hear these stories constantly from the local schools here. One year three high school students killed themselves. Little kids are killing themselves. This is despite all of the talk and all of the campaigning. Apparently it is not working so well.

 

 

That's because it's all talk and no consequences. Schools just say "don't bully." They don't actually DO anything about the bullying and the bullies, though. :glare:

[Ohdanigirl]

I think there needs to be more of a stigma attached to bullying. I think it is really still one of those things where people will shrug it off, and use comments like, "boys will be boys." If more parents took it serious, even when their child is not the one getting bullied, and it was seen as shameful for the family, then it might get better. Often times, though, the parents are bullies as well. Some bullies are calling out for help, but many are just rotten people. Also, often the parents are supportive of the behavior.

 

I was bullied mercilessly as a kid. I wore glasses, and was not rail thin. Once, in fourth or fifth grade two friends defended me and scared off the other girls. The bullies ran and told the school police that I and my friends had threatened them, and I was kicked off the color guard. I had never had problems in school, had great grades, but that was how it worked out.

 

After 5th, I developed and things changed drastically. I was a very curvy fit girl, so the boys started defending me. It was no longer cool to mess with me. After this, the teasing changed. It was more like jealous backstabbing. Even other girls mothers got involved. Making comments like about me being fact because I was curvey. I learned to laugh at them, because it was usually their daughters that were sleeping around with everyone.

 

I can say I was a very popular outsider after this. I was always invited to hang out with the in-crowd, to all the right parties, etc. They disgusted me, for the most part, so I ignored those attempts up through high school. I used my popularity to help others that were bullied though. It often mortified some of my "friends."

 

Danielle

[FaithManor]

And here is the complete, incomprehensible, stupidity of my state - Michigan - the legislature has crafted a bill that would require schools to develop a bullying "and what we are going to do about it" policy!!!! :001_huh:

 

Seriously, there is so little common sense exercised within the administrative personnel of schools that they actually have to be told by the law to make a policy????? :glare: They couldn't figure out before now that there is a problem and they ought to have a consensus on how to deal with it???? :confused:

 

Collosal ignorance and gross laziness and the ostrich buries his head in the sand until a cattle prod is shoved up his rear!

 

The worst thing is these ostriches will be the ones to determine the policy so whatever it is, it is doomed to be ineffective, if not dangerous, and without a doubt, and proof of more illogical thinking.

 

The stuff that goes on in schools, if it went on in the workplace, would only happen once (at most twice) before someone's butt would be tossed to the unemployment line. But, it's all okay to perpetrate on children in the name of "socialization".

 

Faith

[Haiku]

Also, in an attempt to be PC, schools developed that odd little entity called "peer mediation" or "peer counseling." Whose brain child was that? Here we have kids who are in conflict and can't work it out, so whom do we ask to help them? Other kids! What type of message does that send? That bullying is the kids' problem and they better work it out amongst themselves. In peer mediation, all sides are given equal consideration, and no one is painted as the bad guy. The point of peer mediation is to make everyone feel better. Oh, how sweet. :glare:

 

Last year my dd had to go to peer mediation because another girl decided that my dd liked the girl's boyfriend and threatened to beat up my dd. My dd claimed she didn't like this guy, but even if she did, so what? The teachers caught wind of the problem and sent the girls to peer mediation so they could work things out. My dd was made to sign a statement that she would "try harder" to be "more understanding" of the other girl's point of view. The other girl had to promise to "not tell lies" about my dd. NOTHING was said about this girl telling my dd she would wait for her after school and kick her @$$.

 

I was shocked, really shocked, I tell you, to hear later in the year that the girl got suspended for punching another student in the cafeteria. I mean, she had been sent to peer mediation and told to be nice! :001_huh:

 

Tara

[DarlaS]

If they are high school aged, throw them out. If you don't want an education, one will not be provided to you at taxpayer expense. I don't think school should be compulsory after 8th grade anyway.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

 

Any bully I knew, and I knew a few, did NOT want to be there and was NOT learning anyway.

[TXMary2]

Also, in an attempt to be PC, schools developed that odd little entity called "peer mediation" or "peer counseling." Whose brain child was that? Here we have kids who are in conflict and can't work it out, so whom do we ask to help them? Other kids! What type of message does that send? That bullying is the kids' problem and they better work it out amongst themselves. In peer mediation, all sides are given equal consideration, and no one is painted as the bad guy. The point of peer mediation is to make everyone feel better. Oh, how sweet. :glare:

 

Last year my dd had to go to peer mediation because another girl decided that my dd liked the girl's boyfriend and threatened to beat up my dd. My dd claimed she didn't like this guy, but even if she did, so what? The teachers caught wind of the problem and sent the girls to peer mediation so they could work things out. My dd was made to sign a statement that she would "try harder" to be "more understanding" of the other girl's point of view. The other girl had to promise to "not tell lies" about my dd. NOTHING was said about this girl telling my dd she would wait for her after school and kick her @$$.

 

I was shocked, really shocked, I tell you, to hear later in the year that the girl got suspended for punching another student in the cafeteria. I mean, she had been sent to peer mediation and told to be nice! :001_huh:

 

Tara

 

Did you find out about it after the fact? I would tell administrators to shove it and that as the victim my kid wouldn't be signing anything.

 

The policies that schools have in place are beyond ridiculous. I am so sick of the victims being assigned equal responsibility. It's bs.

[TXMary2]

So, speaking of bullying, here is yet another story. This one seems more outrageous than normal.

 

http://www.silive.com/northshore/index.ssf/2011/12/9_arrests_in_staten_island_inc.html

[stripe]

I have zero belief in schools' ability to figure this out unless they change their thinking wholesale. An acquaintance of mine left our school in protest after she was disciplined for defending herself after being attacked by two boys. (I was a witness so I know exactly what happened.) Because of zero tolerance etc.

[keptwoman]

I voted other.

My experience with my kids in schools is that there are two kinds of schools.

One type pays lip service to having an antibullying policy, but doesn't effectively enforce it. They are the ones that blame the victims, and say crap like "boys will be boys." Bullying will always be a problem in schools like this and the behaviour will worsen because it is not dealt with well. This is not fair on the bully or the victim.

The other type deals with bullying immediately and effectively. They do it in such a way that the kids buy into the concept and pretty much police it themselves. Prolonged or repeated bullying does not happen in these schools.

 

I've had my kids in both types of schools, and the only way you can tell which kind the school is, is when something happens and you get to see the reaction. The second type of school may not be common, but it does exist. Out of the 6 schools my kids have attended, we have been lucky enough that 3 of them have been the 2nd kind.

 

I don't actually think that anything major need be done with the bully if the school deals with it effectively, the behaviour never escalates to a point that it is serious enough to warrant expultion because it's dealt with and stopped when it's still minor.