Ruf article: "Why Do So Many Gifted Kids Think They Don't Like Math?"

[Beth in SW WA]

Gifted Homeschoolers shared this link to TalentIgniter yesterday on their FB page.

 

I would love to hear your thoughts. It affirms my decision to homeschool my younger dds.

 

Sorry if this article has been discussed before and you're tired of the topic. I just read it last night for the first time. I need to read The Outliers.

 

:bigear:

Edited December 5, 2011 by Beth in SW WA
fixed link

[Jen in PA]

Thanks for sharing this.

[MinivanMom]

Great article. The suggestions for what we need to do sound great in theory, but I've never heard of any school (public or private) where that kind of instruction and support occurs. I had to laugh at the suggestion to

"[h]ire teachers who love and are good at math to teach kids math, starting in kindergarten or 1st grade." Maybe I've known too many elementary teachers in my time, but that one in particular sounds like a fantasy. Poor math instruction by teachers who struggle with (and secretly hate) math themselves is an epidemic in elementary schools. I'm not sure how that could even begin to be addressed in an institutional setting. Just where are you going to find these math loving el-ed majors? You can't hire math-lovers if there aren't any in the field.

 

Math instruction is one of our primary reasons for homeschooling.

[regentrude]

I think the biggest problem is in the slow progress. Spending four years (5th through 8th grades) on pre-algebra is enough to turn anybody off math; by the time schools get to algebra, they have tuned out.

Another problem is the compartmentalization of math: algebra, geometry etc. In my home country, there is not such thing - it is all math. Geometry and algebra concepts are taught intermixed, beginning in 6th grade.

 

We homeschool primarily because of math. We pulled our kids out of school when, at the beginning of 6th grade, we found out that DD was a full year behind her German peers in math. The pathetic math curriculum in our local ps was the straw that broke the camel's back. Coloring every fifth mouse and folding fraction strips are fine to introduce 2nd graders to fractions - for 6th grade it was ridiculous.

We have not personally encountered incompetent math teachers. We find, however, that the people who develop math curricula are not people who actually use math daily and are proficient with it, but educators with a very limited horizon an math knowledge. They do a lot of harm. (Connected math anybody?)

Edited December 5, 2011 by regentrude

[kiana]

There are some math-loving el-ed majors, but too few.

 

I do not jest when I say that I have heard prospective elementary teachers say "Why do I have to understand fractions? I am only going to teach kindergarten."

 

Even a few of those can really ruin a child's attitude towards math. It's not that they're in the majority ... it's that once you've gone down the road to I HATE MATH the road back uphill is far longer.

[regentrude]

It makes me think of my own lousy math instruction in school. In early elementary according to the state tests I was working at an 8th grade level in math. When I was in 8th grade I was supposedly still working at that level. Nothing much happened in all those years. .

 

That's exactly what I was talking about earlier! Nothing happening between 4th and 8th grade. There is no reason why math instruction should not progress after arithmetic with fraction is mastered, introducing the simpler algebra concepts as early as 6th grade. Why wait and not teach anything for four years until you can do ALL of algebra? Stupid compartmentalized system.

[regentrude]

There are some math-loving el-ed majors, but too few.

 

And unfortunately, it is often the students who are not really good at math that choose to go into teaching - the ones who are good have other opportunities with their degrees. Plus, it takes a lot of idealism to be a school teacher. Why would you want to put that upon yourself if you were qualified to do other mathy things with better pay, better prestige, and less hassle?

[Crimson Wife]

I can't speak to any other gifted kids, but the reason why my oldest dislikes math is because she has to actually work at it (Heaven forbid!) So many other subjects come easily to her that she resents the need to put a bit of mental effort into learning math. :nopity:

[kiana]

I can't speak to any other gifted kids, but the reason why my oldest dislikes math is because she has to actually work at it (Heaven forbid!) So many other subjects come easily to her that she resents the need to put a bit of mental effort into learning math. :nopity:

 

Yes. This is why my SO thinks he is bad at math. You see, in English, Science, and History he just had to read the book and pass the exam, whereas in Mathematics he actually had to work some problems.

 

This, of course, means that he is both stupid and bad at math.

 

:nopity:

[jenbrdsly]

In my view, that article was a loud cry of support for Constructivist Math, which I personally love. It's ironic though, because so many homeschooling parents seem to me to be the complete opposite, and are bent on pursuing drill and kill, memorization, and old-school tactics. (Sorry, I just read the Veritas catalogue and it got me a bit worked up about math. P62 of the catalogue for example: Saxon Algebra 1/2 A program that continues to drill, drill, and drill the way math needs to be taught.") Ironically, Saxon comes from the same publishing house as Houghton Mifflin Math Expressions, which is what my son's public school uses.

I think Afterschooling can be an equally effective option, if the parent is willing to put in the time. :) Our son's public school is great, but he has benefited from Right Start and Dreambox at home. Plus we do a lot of hands on activities at home to support math as well.

[Bluegoat]

For the most part I would say the article is similar to my math experience as a child. I got through elementary school math easily without ever working on it and doing sums and such on my fingers, usually faster than other kids did them. I thought it was a pretty dull subject. When things got harder in jr high though, I found it difficult to keep up, and more so in high school. And I had also by not attending really failed to develop a deeper sense of the patterns of numbers. It was only really in high school that I began to see the possibilities for math, and by then it was late in the game.

 

I also had the difficulty she described with "story problems" in that when confronted with real situations where I needed to use math I was very unsure of what kind of techniques to use - I always had to think it out from the beginning which was not terribly efficient.

[Rivka]

I can't speak to any other gifted kids, but the reason why my oldest dislikes math is because she has to actually work at it (Heaven forbid!) So many other subjects come easily to her that she resents the need to put a bit of mental effort into learning math. :nopity:

That's exactly the situation I'm in with my six-year-old. She's memorizing her times tables and doing quite complicated math reasoning in MEP 2b, but persists in complaining that she is "bad at math" and hates it. I really think it's just because with math I'm keeping her at the edge, where she has to put careful thought into what she does. (The horror!)

 

We had a talk today about all her negativity about math, and I had her brainstorm a list of possible solutions. One of the things I put on the solution list was "only do very easy math." She looked at me like I was crazy. I actually thought she might pick that one, but she assured me that she wouldn't feel good about herself if she only did easy math. Huh.

 

I don't relate at all to what Ruf says in the article about story problems, though, because those have always been my daughter's favorites. She flies through even fairly complicated multistep story problems - she actually prefers them, by far, to number-only problems.

[acurtis75]

I can't speak to any other gifted kids, but the reason why my oldest dislikes math is because she has to actually work at it (Heaven forbid!) So many other subjects come easily to her that she resents the need to put a bit of mental effort into learning math. :nopity:

 

I suspect this might be dd's issue too. It's not even very hard for her. It comes easier to her than probably 99% of kids but it's the only part of her schoolwork that seems to be even a little challenging. I told dh a long time ago that for us math is about character training more than the arithmetic right now.

[Mergath]

I was gifted, and always detested math. Now, many years later, I'm finally figuring out that it was because they only ever half explained it. I was always told WHAT to do, but never WHY. I spent so much time trying to figure out why I was doing things that I just kept getting further behind.

 

Now that I'm older, and can take the time to look back and figure out why things are done the way they are, I'm actually starting to quite enjoy math. :001_smile:

[Dmmetler]

And math has right/wrong answers with no room for argument. In science or history, most of DD's mistakes come from having more information than she's supposed to have at that time (for example, pulling in details in a narration from a half dozen other books. I get the strong suspicion that I'm going to have to really ride her on recording and citing sources because otherwise she's going to end up plagiarizing without realizing it) or arguing that three answers on a science test are technically correct because she can come up with one case for each, although what the test wants is the generalization.

 

Spelling her mistakes are logical-and usually require applications of rules outside of the basics (and often because of derivations in other languages)-so she can mark those off to "the WORD'S breaking the rules!"

 

I think she considers Grammar and mechanics the equivalent of a game anyway-and she rarely makes mistakes in writing (except that she can't seem to remember that the salutation of a letter goes on a different line than the body).

 

In other languages, I make far more mistakes than she does, and she's constantly correcting me, and I think the fact that she's the only one she knows below the age of 12 learning Latin and the only one other that our pastor at Church who knows Greek lets her accept mistakes there.

 

But math...well, when it's wrong, it's wrong-and SHE has to admit that she's the one who made the mistake-and that most of her mistakes are ones she knew better because they were careless or because she didn't fully think through the problem.

 

So, from her POV, Math is the only place she makes mistakes, and therefore she MUST not be good at math!

[jenbrdsly]

What is constructivist math?

 

Short answer: it is the opposite of drill and kill. You are going for deep understanding instead of just mindlessly memorizing and applying algorithms.

 

Long answer: on my blog! :tongue_smilie:

[SorrelZG]

DS (5) would have said he dislikes math (to put it mildly). It was like pulling teeth before we moved to The Verbal Math Lesson which is mostly story problems. Before the switch I was sensing (based on his preferences compared to his disinclination to math) that he wasn't grasping the point of it - he wasn't recognizing that math is everywhere and in everything. His response to our attempts to explain that he was going to need this when he grew up was, "I can use a calculator or pay someone to figure out this stuff for me". :glare: Since switching to heavily story based math he is embracing it - using it in his day to day activities and discovering multiplication by himself. He may still say he dislikes math but I'm not sure he realizes that this is what math is .. not just a curriculum.

 

eta: I think I'm misusing the term "curriculum" .. I meant that if you say "math" he is likely to think of workbooks which he has a particular distaste for, regardless of how well they may teach math.

Edited December 6, 2011 by SCGS

[beaners]

Great article. The suggestions for what we need to do sound great in theory, but I've never heard of any school (public or private) where that kind of instruction and support occurs. I had to laugh at the suggestion to

"[h]ire teachers who love and are good at math to teach kids math, starting in kindergarten or 1st grade." Maybe I've known too many elementary teachers in my time, but that one in particular sounds like a fantasy. Poor math instruction by teachers who struggle with (and secretly hate) math themselves is an epidemic in elementary schools. I'm not sure how that could even begin to be addressed in an institutional setting. Just where are you going to find these math loving el-ed majors? You can't hire math-lovers if there aren't any in the field.

 

Math instruction is one of our primary reasons for homeschooling.

 

There are some math-loving el-ed majors, but too few.

 

I do not jest when I say that I have heard prospective elementary teachers say "Why do I have to understand fractions? I am only going to teach kindergarten."

 

Even a few of those can really ruin a child's attitude towards math. It's not that they're in the majority ... it's that once you've gone down the road to I HATE MATH the road back uphill is far longer.

 

And unfortunately, it is often the students who are not really good at math that choose to go into teaching - the ones who are good have other opportunities with their degrees. Plus, it takes a lot of idealism to be a school teacher. Why would you want to put that upon yourself if you were qualified to do other mathy things with better pay, better prestige, and less hassle?

 

 

I've read a few different studies that theorized about why girls are more likely to be uncomfortable with math. One of the big ones talked about how young female students are more susceptible to picking up the weak points of female teachers, who were often uncomfortable with math. Apparently young male students didn't pick up those same attitudes.

[acurtis75]

In other languages, I make far more mistakes than she does, and she's constantly correcting me, and I think the fact that she's the only one she knows below the age of 12 learning Latin and the only one other that our pastor at Church who knows Greek lets her accept mistakes there.

 

 

So, from her POV, Math is the only place she makes mistakes, and therefore she MUST not be good at math!

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one who has a child always correcting them in their foreign language studies! It bothered me a first. Now I've just decided it's okay and unless I'm willing to study harder than her I'm going to have trouble staying ahead. I'm reworking my schedule now so I can have my own memorization period every day to get Greek letters and Latin vocabulary down.

 

 

Reading this made me realize that math is the only place dd makes mistakes too which explains a lot about her attitude about it. I think we're past the hurdle of her thinking she's bad at it but it book several months of conversations about it, letting her accelerate and do few worksheets which leads to fewer mistakes because she's day dreaming less and incorporating living math books so part of math time is a little more enjoyable for her now.

[go_go_gadget]

My son started to think he was bad at math because everything else was so easy, so I made everything else just as hard by upping the levels of everything. Not that every lesson is difficult for him, but the ratio of easy:medium:hard lessons is the same across the subjects. He also sees me having to work hard on math (I'm a math major), so he sees that having to work hard on math doesn't indicate a lack of aptitude.

 

A previous poster mentioned having been identified as gifted but also having struggled with math because she was always trying to figure out the "whys" and got behind. I'm exactly the same: identified as gifted but always thought I was bad at math because if I don't understand why something works, I can't remember that it does work, i.e. I can't recall and use a formula if I don't understand why it works. I had to start college math with beginning algebra, and chose to take it in a self-paced, self-taught course. I had all the time I needed to read and ask questions, and that's when I discovered that I love math and am kind of okay at it. I'm not amazing and won't be making extraordinary contributions to the field, but that's okay.

[Teachin'Mine]

One of the main reasons my dd likes math so much is because it is challenging. Easy courses do not hold her attention at all. Generally, the more difficult, the more interesting and the more time she'll put into the class. I'm surprised that others experience it being the opposite.

 

Regarding elementary teachers being terrible at math, looking back on my own ps experiences, this was true. They didn't try to hide their dislike of math either. High school was totally different as the teachers seemed very interested in teaching their subjects.

Edited December 9, 2011 by Teachin'Mine

[boscopup]

One of the main reasons my dd likes math so much is because it is challenging. Easy courses do not hold her attention at all. Generally' date=' the more difficult, the more interesting and the more time she'll put into the class. I'm surprised that others experience it being the opposite.[/quote']

 

My son is the same.

 

Regarding elementary teachers being terrible at math, looking back on my own ps experiences, this was true. They didn't try to hide their dislike of math either. High school was totally different as the teachers seemed very interested in teaching their subjects.

In my high school, many of the teachers had degrees in the fields they were teaching. My math teacher had a math degree. My English teacher had a PhD. All of the advanced and AP classes were taught by teachers with degrees in those subjects. The one class I had that wasn't taught by a degreed-in-that-field teacher was Physics. I had the option of taking AP Physics, but it collided with Jazz Band in the schedule, so I chose Jazz Band (at the time, I was planning to do music education in school... little did I realize I'd change my mind and go with Electrical Engineering when I got there :D). I had another gifted friend that was also in my Physics class due to a schedule issue. We called it "Bubba Physics". The class was taught by the track coach, and this wasn't a case where the physics teacher happens to be a track coach also. He was hired as a track coach, and they needed someone to teach Physics, so he got the job. :tongue_smilie: I literally slept through that class and still got A's. During movies, he'd sit in the desk next to mine with a NERF gun aimed at me for when I would fall alseep. :lol:

[crazyforlatin]

Okay, now I think I understand DD better. She's an advanced reader and languages come to her easily. Even though she's 6 and doing 4th grade math, she claims she's bad at it. I've told her she could do exactly what her first grade peers are doing, and she finds this extremely insulting.

[Truscifi]

Okay, now I think I understand DD better. She's an advanced reader and languages come to her easily. Even though she's 6 and doing 4th grade math, she claims she's bad at it. I've told her she could do exactly what her first grade peers are doing, and she finds this extremely insulting.

 

:iagree: Ds8 is only 1.5 years ahead in math, vs 3 years + in every other subject, so of course that means he is terrible at it. :rolleyes:

 

Frighteningly, he has recently started saying "I hate myself" and "I'm horrible" when he gets even the smallest thing wrong. I'm not sure how to deal with this other than to remind him of all his good qualities and that every one makes the occasional mistake. :confused:

[choirfarm]

.

 

A previous poster mentioned having been identified as gifted but also having struggled with math because she was always trying to figure out the "whys" and got behind. I'm exactly the same: identified as gifted but always thought I was bad at math because if I don't understand why something works, I can't remember that it does work, i.e. I can't recall and use a formula if I don't understand why it works. I had to start college math with beginning algebra, and chose to take it in a self-paced, self-taught course. I had all the time I needed to read and ask questions, and that's when I discovered that I love math and am kind of okay at it. I'm not amazing and won't be making extraordinary contributions to the field, but that's okay.

 

So how does a homeschool mom teach the why's. I sense that this is part of her "I hate math" problem. I will teach her how to do something like cross multiply to show the fractions are equal. She doesn't understand that at all. She'll do it. But I can tell she doesn't get the idea of equivilant fractions. I don't know why the cross multiplication works, but it does. I try to show her dividing by the 3/3 or something and that doesn't make sense. She understands if she sees the picture, but not how these mathmatical operations get her there if that makes sense. She wants to know why... and to be honest, I don't know. This is just what you do to get the answer. So much of math, I just do but don't truly understand why.

[beaners]

So how does a homeschool mom teach the why's. I sense that this is part of her "I hate math" problem. I will teach her how to do something like cross multiply to show the fractions are equal. She doesn't understand that at all. She'll do it. But I can tell she doesn't get the idea of equivilant fractions. I don't know why the cross multiplication works, but it does. I try to show her dividing by the 3/3 or something and that doesn't make sense. She understands if she sees the picture, but not how these mathmatical operations get her there if that makes sense. She wants to know why... and to be honest, I don't know. This is just what you do to get the answer. So much of math, I just do but don't truly understand why.

 

Does she understand that 3/3 is the same as 1, and how you can multiply or divide by 1 without changing your value?

 

Cross multiplying works because you are keeping both sides of the equation equal. It might make more sense after algebra. Say you have a/b = c/d . When you cross multiply, first you are multiplying both sides of the equation by b. b*a/b gives you a because b/b=1. You multiply the other side of the equation by b because you always do the same thing to both sides of the equation. Now you have a = (c*b)/d . You don't actually need the parentheses there, but I'm trying to make it clear the c and b are both in the numerator. Now you multiply both sides of the equation by d. d/d=1, leaving you with c*b on the right. You multiply the other side by d and get d*a on the left. a*d=b*c

 

Does that explanation help you at all? It's tough to write out problems on this board format.

[regentrude]

So how does a homeschool mom teach the why's. I sense that this is part of her "I hate math" problem. I will teach her how to do something like cross multiply to show the fractions are equal. She doesn't understand that at all. She'll do it. But I can tell she doesn't get the idea of equivilant fractions. I don't know why the cross multiplication works, but it does. I try to show her dividing by the 3/3 or something and that doesn't make sense. She understands if she sees the picture, but not how these mathmatical operations get her there if that makes sense. She wants to know why... and to be honest, I don't know. This is just what you do to get the answer. So much of math, I just do but don't truly understand why.

 

 

If you do not know why it works, you can not teach it to her - so you either need to study math ahead of her with a curriculum that teaches you the whys, or you need to outsource math.

[choirfarm]

If you do not know why it works, you can not teach it to her - so you either need to study math ahead of her with a curriculum that teaches you the whys, or you need to outsource math.

 

So what math curriculum does that? I can solve all the SAT math kind of problems. Made A's in math until Precalc.. Didn't take math in college because I didn't have to. I actually enjoyed math until we moved when I was 16. But do I know why...nope. I just see it and can do it.. I don't know how to explain what I have done.

[choirfarm]

Does she understand that 3/3 is the same as 1, and how you can multiply or divide by 1 without changing your value?

 

.

 

Well, we watched Khan videos about that. I tried to explain it. Khans helped because I honestly didn't know WHY you did that, just that you had to do the same number over the same number.

[jenbrdsly]

So what math curriculum does that? I can solve all the SAT math kind of problems. Made A's in math until Precalc.. Didn't take math in college because I didn't have to. I actually enjoyed math until we moved when I was 16. But do I know why...nope. I just see it and can do it.. I don't know how to explain what I have done.

 

A Constructivist math program would concentrate on the WHY of math. I'm not familiar with upper grades, so I can't help you. :confused: At the lower grades, programs that are hands-on like Right Start, Miquon, etc. help kids master the WHY instead of just mindlessly teaching them algorithms.

[beaners]

Well, we watched Khan videos about that. I tried to explain it. Khans helped because I honestly didn't know WHY you did that, just that you had to do the same number over the same number.

 

Would it help if you just multiplied whole numbers by 3/3 or 5/5, then reduced them to their simplest form? You would actually be doing a simple division problem resulting in a whole number, so you could look at it that way if simplifying fractions is still tough. (And I could see it being tough if you can't find equivalent fractions.)

 

Would that help show that you are multiplying or dividing by 1, because you get the number you started with? Did your material cover using fractional forms of 1 like that before this point? Am I making any sense at all? :tongue_smilie:I'm trying to be helpful with the specific topics you've mentioned, but I might not be very clear.

[AndyJoy]

There are some math-loving el-ed majors, but too few.

 

I do not jest when I say that I have heard prospective elementary teachers say "Why do I have to understand fractions? I am only going to teach kindergarten."

 

Even a few of those can really ruin a child's attitude towards math. It's not that they're in the majority ... it's that once you've gone down the road to I HATE MATH the road back uphill is far longer.

:iagree:I took "Math for Elementary School Teachers" at a state university just for fun while I was working there. The first semester covered K-5th grade math. At least half of my class (mostly juniors) truly struggled with this material! We were seated in groups of 4 and worked on many things as a group. At Christmas, 2 of the 3 girls in my group gave me Christmas cards that sad "Thank you so much! I never would have made it through this class without you!":001_huh::glare:

 

I loved math, and the teacher and I hit it off right away. I'd stay after class to talk to her about math education. She was really disturbed at how few of her students enjoyed math and was worried they'd unwittingly transmit their attitudes to their young students. She said it was a breath of fresh air to find someone like me who liked math, was good at it, and planned to teach young children. She was so upset when she found out I wasn't a teacher ed major--just a future homeschooling mom! She was a bit happier when I promised her I'd teach in a homeschool co-op some day.

[choirfarm]

What are you using/have you used so far?

 

I'm not exactly sure what you mean.. We did Saxon Math until 3rd grade with a mix of Singapore. Last year we switched to Horizon which is where we are today.

 

I was attracted to this thread because I remember being so bored in math. After 5th grade, they no longer taught you anything new. It was the same thing over and over. I remember being so excited in 8th grade because it was something new: Algebra and it was so fun!

 

My dad was a math major. For my science project in 7th grade I did Abacuses in different bases. I got a B because the teacher didn't think "I" did it. ( But my dad was a stickler and would sit for HOURS until "I" figured it out. I never went to him for help until it was a last resort.) I went to the state science fair next to people who were just starting to do computer stuff. It was kind of funny: old technology vs. new. I can see a math problem and see lots of ways to solve it, but I don't know exactly how or why. I just see it.. I try to explain it to her but I go too fast, I think. Both she and my middle son just look at me and tell me I am talking gibberish. Now my oldest mathy son and I talk the exact same language. So if he got stuck, I would just tell him a phrase and he would go.."Oh, I see." And yesterday as I'm trying to reteach myself Geometry I didn't understand why something was the way it was on the screen and oldest gave me a quick answer... "OH.. I see." Unfortunately he is doing Precalc now. The last time I had that was 30 years ago and we had just moved. The students were all cut throat and worried about their GPA's and no one helped each other unlike my old school. I muddled through with a B not understanding what I did. So I can't help him. For my daughter and middle son, I just don't see it sequentially or something. I'll try to show her 4 different ways to solve it and she just gets more confused...

Edited December 18, 2011 by choirfarm

[Lasthenia]

Math gets a bad rep in pop culture. Plus, whereas Nobel winners in literature and science are lauded, math geniuses are portrayed as 'eccentrics'.

[kiana]

Well, we watched Khan videos about that. I tried to explain it. Khans helped because I honestly didn't know WHY you did that, just that you had to do the same number over the same number.

 

Might look into the arithmetic for parents book singapore sells.

 

There's also some well-reviewed mathematics for elementary educators books -- and that's what those books are about, to re-teach primary school arithmetic to adults who often know how but not why.

[Crimson Wife]

I was in a similar boat but between Right Start, Math Mammoth, and Khan Academy, I'm remediating my sub-par math education. I have heard that Foerster's provides the best explanations for Algebra 1 and that's on my "to teach myself" list for 2012.

[poetic license]

I was in a similar boat but between Right Start, Math Mammoth, and Khan Academy, I'm remediating my sub-par math education. I have heard that Foerster's provides the best explanations for Algebra 1 and that's on my "to teach myself" list for 2012.

 

So do you go through these curricula before teaching your DC? I really need to remediate my math education and I'm thinking of going through SM or MM (cheaper!) before my kids get too deep into math.

 

Does anyone have any other suggestions besides these programs and Liping Ma's book?

[cjbeach]

oops, wrong spot

[Ritsumei]

I was gifted, and always detested math. Now, many years later, I'm finally figuring out that it was because they only ever half explained it. I was always told WHAT to do, but never WHY. I spent so much time trying to figure out why I was doing things that I just kept getting further behind.

 

Now that I'm older, and can take the time to look back and figure out why things are done the way they are, I'm actually starting to quite enjoy math. :001_smile:

 

:iagree::iagree: This is sooo me. I just started using Miquan with the Math Expressions we've been using all along, and oh my goodness, the lightbulbs I've had! Not too long ago, somewhere on these boards I was part of a conversation that discussed "sixness" and "define 8." It was mind-bogglingly cool! Since then I've been reading about math and origami, and I'm sooo excited about the whole teaching/re-learning math thing!

 

I think the biggest problem is in the slow progress. Spending four years (5th through 8th grades) on pre-algebra is enough to turn anybody off math; by the time schools get to algebra, they have tuned out.

 

 

I remember this. I used to hate that. Start school, they pass out the "new" books but it was the same stupid thing we did last year. Again. And again. And again. In fact, I had a gut-wrenching moment when I looked at the Math Expressions 1st grade book that we'll be starting shortly and it basically started over from the beginning with the same stuff that their K book had. It passed quickly: I decided to skip most of the stupid review that my son doesn't need anyhow. I mentioned it to my Mom, a K teacher, and she said that most kids need all that review. I'm not sure that I buy that. Whatever. My kid doesn't, and I'm teaching him. Even with all the skipping of review we do, I'm pretty sure that math is nearly never hard for him. I'm not sure how to deal with that. I'm beginning to seriously consider dropping ME in favor of just Miquan. Thing is, ME is strong in the story problems, and Miquan just isn't.

[jenbrdsly]

:iagree::iagree: This is sooo me. I just started using Miquan with the Math Expressions we've been using all along, and oh my goodness, the lightbulbs I've had! Not too long ago, somewhere on these boards I was part of a conversation that discussed "sixness" and "define 8." It was mind-bogglingly cool! Since then I've been reading about math and origami, and I'm sooo excited about the whole teaching/re-learning math thing!

 

 

Are you talking about Houghton Mifflin Math Expressions? I hardly ever come across anyone on these boards whose children are using them. That's what my son is doing in school too. At home we have been using Dreambox, Right Start, and now Hands On Equations.

Math Expressions is interesting because it falls somewhere in the middle of the Drill and Kill vs. pure Constructivist spectrum. It's also published by the same people as Saxon.

[Ritsumei]

:iagree::iagree: This is sooo me. I just started using Miquan with the Math Expressions we've been using all along, and oh my goodness, the lightbulbs I've had! Not too long ago, somewhere on these boards I was part of a conversation that discussed "sixness" and "define 8." It was mind-bogglingly cool! Since then I've been reading about math and origami, and I'm sooo excited about the whole teaching/re-learning math thing!

 

 

Are you talking about Houghton Mifflin Math Expressions? I hardly ever come across anyone on these boards whose children are using them. That's what my son is doing in school too. At home we have been using Dreambox, Right Start, and now Hands On Equations.

 

Math Expressions is interesting because it falls somewhere in the middle of the Drill and Kill vs. pure Constructivist spectrum. It's also published by the same people as Saxon.

 

 

Yep. :) We're using the very same. My Mom teaches K, and they started using it just a little while before we started doing formal work. She was raving about it. I looked at her books and felt really good about it. It has aspects that I love: the way that they introduce flexible algebraic-type thinking right away, as soon as you start learning math really appealed to me, as did all the partners work. I don't know which curriculum I learned with, but I strongly suspect it was the pulg-n-chug type. I have learned more "number sense" since starting Miquan than I ever realized it was possible to have. ME is good, but those c-rods are just amazing! I still like ME, but it's spiral, and I think that's what's driving me crazy about it. I was looking at that math-for-a-multiplying-1st-grader thread and the idea of using the unit test as a pretest really appeals to me. I think I'm going to start doing that. It may just solve the "this is too easy" problem we consistently have. I'm beginning to feel like a skipped stone again... but thanks to the Hive, I'm getting more comfortable with that feeling! It wouldn't surprise me too much to find that, if I can figure out how to keep up with him, Monkey ends up being one of those the article talks about that is ready for pre-algebra or algebra around 8 or 9. Crazy. But math is something that will devour our day if I let it. He just loves the stuff.

Edited December 21, 2011 by Ritsumei

[Mabelen]

:iagree::iagree: This is sooo me. I just started using Miquan with the Math Expressions we've been using all along, and oh my goodness, the lightbulbs I've had! Not too long ago, somewhere on these boards I was part of a conversation that discussed "sixness" and "define 8." It was mind-bogglingly cool! Since then I've been reading about math and origami, and I'm sooo excited about the whole teaching/re-learning math thing!

 

 

Are you talking about Houghton Mifflin Math Expressions? I hardly ever come across anyone on these boards whose children are using them. That's what my son is doing in school too. At home we have been using Dreambox, Right Start, and now Hands On Equations.

 

Math Expressions is interesting because it falls somewhere in the middle of the Drill and Kill vs. pure Constructivist spectrum. It's also published by the same people as Saxon.

 

My younger daughter is also using Math Expressions at school. She is happy with that program and so am I. We are afterschooling with a combination of Compass Learning (Time4Learning), a little Dreambox, old fashioned triangle math fact cards and Xtramath. I don't know if she is gifted although she is a high achiever, she will take an assesment at school later this year for possible identification. She is a little ambivalent about math, sometimes she likes it and at others she says she doesn't like it. In her case I think it is partly because she is fairly competitive and is in a classroom with a bunch of highly able kids who have been afterschooled in math from birth it seems, plus there is definitely at least one or two real math geniouses in that group!

 

My older dd was identified as gifted, unfortunately her school used Everyday Math. That could be part of the reasons why she is one of those kids that is good at but does not like math.

[jenbrdsly]

 

My younger daughter is also using Math Expressions at school. She is happy with that program and so am I. We are afterschooling with a combination of Compass Learning (Time4Learning), a little Dreambox, old fashioned triangle math fact cards and Xtramath. I don't know if she is gifted although she is a high achiever, she will take an assesment at school later this year for possible identification. She is a little ambivalent about math, sometimes she likes it and at others she says she doesn't like it. In her case I think it is partly because she is fairly competitive and is in a classroom with a bunch of highly able kids who have been afterschooled in math from birth it seems, plus there is definitely at least one or two real math geniouses in that group!

 

My older dd was identified as gifted, unfortunately her school used Everyday Math. That could be part of the reasons why she is one of those kids that is good at but does not like math.

 

Has anyone reached third grade Math Expressions yet? I still like it, but I've been surprised at how much geometry they are doing. The geometry is above Right Start Level D, and from what I can tell from the Singapore website, it looks like it would be 4a or 4b level. I'm not complaining, I just find that interesting.

[Mabelen]

 

Has anyone reached third grade Math Expressions yet? I still like it, but I've been surprised at how much geometry they are doing. The geometry is above Right Start Level D, and from what I can tell from the Singapore website, it looks like it would be 4a or 4b level. I'm not complaining, I just find that interesting.

 

We are not there yet, but it's interesting to know. My older dd did Geometry last year in High School and she hated the class. She is much happier doing Algebra II!

[jenbrdsly]

I finally cracked and bought the Singapore 4A standards book today out of my own curiosity, and to keep my son busy over Christmas break. The geometry section is almost all review compared to third grade Houghton Mifflin. BUT when I was at the store I noticed that Singapore 3B (I think) had a lot more liquid measurement than Houghton Mifflin.

[Crimson Wife]

3B has a LOT of measurement chapters. I think it's the most measurement-heavy of all the Singapore books.

 

Singapore hits geometry pretty heavy in the 5th and 6th grade books.

[EKS]

:iagree:I took "Math for Elementary School Teachers" at a state university just for fun while I was working there. The first semester covered K-5th grade math. At least half of my class (mostly juniors) truly struggled with this material!

 

This doesn't surprise me at all. I firmly believe that the average adult's math knowledge ends at basic prealgebra, with spottiness starting with fractions.

 

And my children's standardized test scores reinforce this belief. Both kids, after they had mastered upper elementary math (but had not yet done prealgebra), had >12.9 grade equivalent scores on tests that keep going until you can't do any more (WJ-III and MAP), meaning that the test is the same if the person is a 9yo or a 99yo. This says a whole lot more about the average adult's math ability than it does about my sons'.