Question about vaccines and autism

[Carrie12345]

 

Pharmacists are people like everybody else. They have kids like everybody else. I AM inherently suspicious of anyone trying to sell me something they personally would not use, and I think that is a reasonable attitude and a reasonable suspicion, but the ironic fact is the pharmacists' children, the physicians' children, etc., ARE vaccinated, from what I have observed (and I get to observe a lot, DH is there with them professionally). So, the people who KNOW what gets into those vaccines, who KNOW the risks and the benefits of vaccines, who KNOW the biochemistry behind it, still vaccinate their own children. They do not just preach it to the crowds, they actually practice what they preach when their own children's lives are at stake when it comes to vaccines.

Yet the crowds have this absurd idea of immense dangers of vaccines. Nobody denies that whenever you inject any chemical substance into any body, there is a possibility of an adverse reaction, but these things have been SO studied, the cases of adverse reactions have been SO studied, the additional precautions have been designed and some additional components replaced for potential allergic reactions, and overall the whole thing has been SO scrutinized over the years, that it would really be absurd for a whole generation of specialists to continue to vaccinate their own children if they knew the supposed risks highly outweighted the supposed benefits.

.

 

I would love for it to be that simple. But I also know ob's who schedule their own c-sections, nurses who smoke, and obese cardiologists. I'd never take my medical cues from their personal lives.

[LittleIzumi]

I would love for it to be that simple. But I also know ob's who schedule their own c-sections, nurses who smoke, and obese cardiologists. I'd never take my medical cues from their personal lives.

 

:iagree: I was also talking to a NICU nurse friend the other day and she plans to decline at least the Hep B with her next baby. Not all medical professionals do vax their children.

[Carrie12345]

that I think there is a bigger picture.

 

 

We need to go back to having some immune systems of our own that aren't tampered with and destroyed by, you guessed it, our GOVERNMENT, with its food/drug tampering. I'm sorry, but any government that will allow its citizens' food supply to be contaminated with the volume of drugs and hormones that ours does, is not one I will trust for the truth about our vaccines.

 

I'm going to stop myself from getting on a gov't/food roll. I'll leave it at this - I'm surprised we're all not dead!

[ChocolateReignRemix]

Of course they do. They are educated in such a way that I would expect they would accept the paradigm. It would be really hard to sleep at night if they they were asking parents to do something they were unwilling to do.

 

I also think it is fair to say it would be career suicide to come out publicly against or even questioning vaccine.

I also think the "Agatha down the street" thing is a little condescending. Most people I know who decide not to vaccinate or delay/selective vaccinate spend many, many hours researching. There are a number of parents on this forum (many of whom are quite educated, according to a recent poll) who do not vaccinate. Do you really think they just read "something, somewhere" before coming to their decision?

 

I don't know anyone who avoid vaccines only due to fears of autism. For many it does not even crack the top reasons.

 

Although it may be condescending, it is accurate. Spending "many, many hours" researching is fairly pointless if someone doesn't know how to filter the information and fully comprehend complex topics.

 

Based on the comments that appear frequently in these discussions, anti-vaxxers who actually have the background and knowledge needed to do so are very, very rare.

[Ester Maria]

I also think the "Agatha down the street" thing is a little condescending. Most people I know who decide not to vaccinate or delay/selective vaccinate spend many, many hours researching. There are a number of parents on this forum (many of whom are quite educated, according to a recent poll) who do not vaccinate. Do you really thing they just read "something, somewhere" before coming to their decision?

 

I don't know anyone who avoid vaccines only due to fears of autism. For many it does not even crack the top reasons.

I am personally a layperson like Agatha too, so I do not think it was condescending - I am merely acknowledging the fact that making such a decision as a layman and as a professional cannot possibly be the same thing. The laymen lack foundational biochemistry and pharmaceutical training and no amount of reading "pro" and "contra" articles and experiences is going to make up for the lack of a more sophisticated medical training. This is not a matter of many hours of investigation, these things are studied for many years in medical schools. It is impossible to make a "shortcut" there. Yet the fact remains, at least from what I can see (and I do not claim that my experience is necessarily representable for all countries and all communities), that is exactly people with higher and more sophisticated knowledge of biochemistry that DO vaccinate, rather than do not.

 

I have advanced degrees as well, which probably makes me highly educated, but these are serious medical decisions. Being highly educated does not mean having a necessary medical knowledge to make a truly well-informed choice of going against the scientific mainstream. That in itself is a very radical step which in my view should be taken only if one really, truly, honestly knows what they are talking about on the same level as the scientific mainstream, and still disagrees, not on a layperson's level, but on a professional level. *I* cannot do that for sure and as long as I cannot do that, I am really skeptical as to whether I have any real background to go against the medical recommendations and possibly endager my child and the community on the whole, kwim? That is, at least, what is my train of thought in those circumstances. I am not a blind follower of what the "authorities" say, but I like to think that I can, at least sometimes, recognize my own limits too.

I think people who can make an informed decision to go against scientific mainstream exist, but are very rare.

 

As to your last paragraph, the connection with autism is the title of the thread, so I focused on that in accordance with that.

I would love for it to be that simple. But I also know ob's who schedule their own c-sections, nurses who smoke, and obese cardiologists. I'd never take my medical cues from their personal lives.

It is not only what they personally do, it is also about their knowledge of the field, which can certainly be at odds with what they do in some cases. But no cardiologist will tell you obesity is good, still. Also, most people are way, way more careful with how they treat their children than how they treat themselves - I know many people who are overweight, but only a handful who do not panic if their children are becoming overweight. It is our children and choices we make about our children, rather than ourselves, that are very important because of that. Here we have a choice of injecting healthy small children with, potentially, very potent substances containing samples of the illnesses they are against. I still think that, if the medical mainstream does that to their own, perfectly healthy and small and defenseless children, there must be a whole load of good reasons to do that, if people who know, chemically, what those things are and how they react with the body, still decide that the benefits outweight the risks in great numbers.

 

I do know people have a healthy skepticism as to the scheduling and spacing (which is what I mentioned in my first response anyway), as to "maintenance" things such as flu shots, but they truly cannot be described as anti-vax. In the specific context of this thread, they do not fear autism if they vaccinate their children.

 

I totally get why people are reluctant to *do* something. It is always easier on you to know that you at least did not actively harm by doing something, it is always easier on you to let things be when you have a healthy small child than to interfere in their immune system. But one's instincts may be at odds here with what really ought to be done.

[kathymuggle]

 

Based on the comments that appear frequently in these discussions, anti-vaxxers who actually have the background and knowledge needed to do so are very, very rare.

 

Says you :tongue_smilie:

[Annie Laurie]

My concern with vaccines is the amount of aluminum in each shot. I delay and spread them out for that reason. Read The Vaccine Book by Robert Sears. He breaks down what is in each shot, and he's pro vaccine but balanced and informative, simply listing facts, not scary stories.

[mchel210]

I can tell you IMHO my dd showed her aspergers from the first week she was born. She didnt want to be cuddled and slept best on her own...I dont blame her vaccines at all. We also still give flu shots to all of the kids plus ourselves and we dont have any problems.

My MIL has aspergers and I can tell you she didnt have all these new vaccines that are out. She is from Haiti and she didnt get many vaccines at all but she still is an aspie!

[Tiramisu]

Just chiming in that the majority of those who I know who have chosen not to vaccinate have done so with subsequent children after an older child had a severe or life-threatening vaccine reaction.

 

All of mine are vaccinated, though some on a different schedule due to living overseas. None are autistic but have quirks that were genetic or hinted at before vaccination.

 

From living overseas I have seen mumps, measles, and chicken pox in children, and, generally, they weren't a big deal. One case of measles was scary because the eyes were temporarily affected, but everything was fine in the end. When measles were going around, I had to search for a doctor who would administer the vaccine to my dd because some pediatricians thought it was unnecessary.

 

One of our dc had mumps when we lived abroad and for her it was very mild, less annoying than a cold, though we were told not to let her leave the house for ten days to prevent infecting others. Before she showed symptoms, dh's childhood friend visited and caught it, and it was REALLY BAD and could have caused sterility. He was never vaccinated but neither was dh, because they didn't have a lot of vaccinations in their home country when they were young. Dh was lucky, I guess, because he's actually had all those diseases as a child.

 

In Japan, they don't vaccinate the same as we do. They do fewer vaccines, and they space them out more, especially the live ones. They don't vaccinate everyone for mumps and rubella. Once they hit puberty, girls get the rubella vaccine and boys get the mumps vaccine. Their child mortality rate is better than ours.

 

 

I have known of two cases of people who died from tetanus, though I don't know the reasons why they weren't vaccinated. Neither were children.

 

My major concerns for vaccines are the use of aborted fetal cells and as autoimmune disease triggers in adults since they are an issue in our family.

[Finnella]

All current research indicates no link between vaccines and autism, plus the original Lancet study showing a link was thoroughly discredited.

 

Absolutely. That first study was faked, sadly starting this false link between autism and vaccines.

 

While it is sadly difficult to obtain, I think it's good for parents to be familiar with the complications of the actual diseases that vaccinations are available for. Most of them are not minor childhood illnesses with no risks. Children can die from some of these illnesses or suffer major problems such as deafness. (I must add that I hate those public service announcements that almost state that you're a horrible parent who's putting their kids lives at risk by not vaccinating. I'm not trying to be that extreme.)

 

Also, many illnesses that are uncommon here, e.g., polio, still exist in other countries. People can and do bring these illnesses into the more developed countries.

 

My husband and I read a great deal before eventually deciding to vaccinate. Parents need to make their own, best informed decision. I don't think for a moment that my younger son's autism was caused by vaccinations.

 

I just recently heard of a study showing that autistic children had a much larger amount of brain neurons than NTs, almost twice as much. Since the neurons develop while the child is still a fetus, that points to something happening before birth. There's still so much to be learned about autism, but I think we can safely abandon the vaccine issue. That dead horse is skeletal these days.

[Wheres Toto]

I would not like to insinuate anything rude, but I honestly do not know anyone who does not vaccinate specifically because of fear of autism and has the advanced medical knoweldge. At best, I know people who put their children on a somewhat delayed schedule and are extra careful as to potential allergic reactions to some components of some vaccines - but it is only people like Agatha down the street, with no higher medical knowledge, who read something about autism somewhere and are a bit into Big Pharma conspiracies, who are not vaccinating their children at all. Meanwhile all of the people who I know INSIDE that Evil Big Pharma, who are in a biomedical field in general, are normally vaccinating their children. :confused:

 

Pharmacists are people like everybody else. They have kids like everybody else. I AM inherently suspicious of anyone trying to sell me something they personally would not use, and I think that is a reasonable attitude and a reasonable suspicion, but the ironic fact is the pharmacists' children, the physicians' children, etc., ARE vaccinated, from what I have observed (and I get to observe a lot, DH is there with them professionally). So, the people who KNOW what gets into those vaccines, who KNOW the risks and the benefits of vaccines, who KNOW the biochemistry behind it, still vaccinate their own children. They do not just preach it to the crowds, they actually practice what they preach when their own children's lives are at stake when it comes to vaccines.

Yet the crowds have this absurd idea of immense dangers of vaccines. Nobody denies that whenever you inject any chemical substance into any body, there is a possibility of an adverse reaction, but these things have been SO studied, the cases of adverse reactions have been SO studied, the additional precautions have been designed and some additional components replaced for potential allergic reactions, and overall the whole thing has been SO scrutinized over the years, that it would really be absurd for a whole generation of specialists to continue to vaccinate their own children if they knew the supposed risks highly outweighted the supposed benefits.

 

From what I understand as a layperson, the supposed "link" between autism and vaccines is a statistical issue. You will have a certain number of children who will develop normally and then start regressing about that age (whether vaccinated or not). Statistically, for some of them it will coincide with the vaccine schedule. It is also expectable that the media will make a sensational fuss about it.

 

:iagree:

 

DH is a analytical pharmaceutical Chemist. We vaccinate.

[TranquilMind]

I wouldn't use the word "silly", but yes I think you're making a huge mistake not to vaccinate. There is absolutely no scientific basis for avoiding vaccination, and a huge amount of evidence that vaccination is beneficial, not just to your own children but to the community. Herd immunity is never more than partial, and vaccines are not always effective. The more unvaccinated people in a population, the more likely it is that the illness will take hold in that population, affecting not just unvaccinated individuals, but also those who were vaccinated but remain vulnerable.

 

I really sympathize with those parents whose children have been diagnosed ASD after being vaccinated. It's natural to look for something, anything, to blame. But blaming ASD on vaccination is a classis example of post hoc ergo propter hoc.

 

Please have your child vaccinated. You'll sleep better, and you'll also be doing the entire community a favor.

Piggybacking onto this: Do you find it problematic that childhood vaccines have gone from maybe 3 in my childhood (I'm over 50) to the current level of 69 doses from literally birth to age 18, if you do everything they recommend?

 

Could we be overdoing it? One negative effect to older generations has occurred in that the parents and grandparents no longer get their natural boosters that occur when their own children have all the childhood diseases and they nurse them through it.

 

Now we've got shingles popping up in old people, and all sorts of repeated disease patterns because needle immunity is generally not lifetime immunity, as recovering from the mumps or chicken pox really was (assuming the natural boosters in place that are now not).

 

Your take?

[TranquilMind]

I'm in your shoes. When the boys were first diagnosed, my developmental pediatrician DID tell me not to vaccinate any further children to be on the safe side (of course, this was not in the US). We waited until dd was 4 and then she had the MMR, DTaP and Hep-A. A lot of the other vaccines they give to infants weren't necessary because she was older, we declined Hep B because I personally don't feel she's likely to be exposed as a typical kid and waited on the Chicken Pox hoping that she'll be exposed naturally and develop life long immunity.

 

Once a child is talking well and can communicate if they're having a bad reaction, I felt more comfortable giving a vaccine.

 

I hope you can come to a decision you're comfortable with.

I remember reading that after Japan dropped vaccination until after the age of 2, the rate of autism dropped precipitously.

[TranquilMind]

I'm sorry, but that's just blatantly untrue. Perfectly healthy children die all the time from childhood diseases. Take a look at the death rates before vaccines were introduced.

The rates of disease were already plunging before widespread vaccines came on the scene. I've seen the bell curves. I'm not convinced that massive vaccination played the role attributed to it.

[TranquilMind]

Quad Shot Academy:

That is it; that is all we are doing. My oldest daughter has the best immune system and she has had the scariest reactions to the shots. I can't imagine what the reaction would have been like if she was a baby and had multiple shots at the same time.

 

Exactly. Know your kids and follow your gut.

 

 

I think you have to be a pretty trusting person to believe the studies about vaccines and autism. I don't. I still think there is a middle of the road approach.

 

I think we have to follow the money.

 

My kids that are 5-11 are getting the same dosage of the MMR as an infant would.

THAT is what is really, really frightening. We don't do that for any other kind of medication.

[TranquilMind]

There is no link between autism and vaccines. People who don't vaccinate are endangering the public health and risking the lives of their children and other people's children. Plain and simple.

 

Bill

That argument is without merit. If you are "protected" by vaccination and it really does work, then you have nothing to worry about. The ones you really need to worry about are newly vaccinated people shedding virus everywhere after the vaccines, by the way. They warn chemo patients to stay away from the recently vaccinated.

 

A nurse came in my hospital room this past week to try to get an IV line (just got out - appendix) and stated that she had to get some vaccines to go on a recent trip to Africa. Oh great. I mentioned politely that I hoped she wasn't still shedding and she said she had worried about that too since she is an oncology nurse!

 

I'm not saying there is no place ever for vaccinations, but I strongly believe that natural, lifelong immunity is far superior to intrevenous-induced temporary immunity. For example, when growing up back in the 60's, I never, ever had the chicken pox, but everyone around me did. I got a natural immunity from exposure, I guess. 40 years later, when my own kids get the chicken pox, my doctor draws a blood titer and I am completely immune. But they are recommending CP boosters regularly. No thanks, I will take my lifetime immunity and that of my kids.

Edited November 25, 2011 by TranquilMind

[kiana]

The rates of disease were already plunging before widespread vaccines came on the scene. I've seen the bell curves. I'm not convinced that massive vaccination played the role attributed to it.

 

Every site I've seen that claimed this used, when analyzed, either DEATH rates (which, yes, were precipitously dropping due to better hygeine and treatment, but death rates are NOT infection rates!) or cherry-picked data (picking just a few years in order to make the curve prove their point.)

[cjbeach]

I actually have the background and research behind me to be one of those people who "should know better." But I have a child who upon receiving vax at 17 mos had a severe reaction and broke out 5 days later in full blown measles. He was dx'd @ 36 mos w/pdd-nos. (Additionally,I have a very close family member works in genomics unit of very well-known pediatric hospital investigating autism bi-annually.)

I'm a nurse with an advanced education, have btdt, and there I was with a child with a severe reaction.

 

NOW let me preface this with... I wouldn't have called him neurotypical to begin with. My mommy gut was telling me prior to the 17 mos vax he had *something* going on. He definitely arm flapped, had severe reflux (which in baby brain education circles, like Doman, they believe is an indicator of brain injury) and didn't crawl until 10 mos, but according to his pediatric records he had no developmental delay and was neurotypical.

 

The first thing that happened after the reaction (when he woke up on a Monday, prior Thurs was the appointment, covered in measles) was my pediatrician said it wasn't a "reaction" it was a few measles spots. He was covered anteriorly and posteriorly head-to-toe. He was febrile, he was covered, and he was SICK. Our pediatrician, who was the head of our hospital's pedi unit, blew.us.off. He was lethargic and not himself for about 2.5 months post-reaction. It was during this time that I we noticed his speech had totally vanished- no more words, zip, zero, nada.

 

Of course by this point I was freaking out. But honestly, I couldn't get help or answers. My child had changed right before my eyes. As I said, IMO I thought he was quirky prior to 17 mos, but 5 days after that appointment, when he woke with measles, there was a measurable change.

 

Looking back, I'd say the reaction was measles encephalopathy, a rare side effect of MMR. But we could not get anyone to do more than write a prescription for a speech eval for speech cessation. He was in speech therapy by 19 months. At 19 mos we also had our first developmental pediatrician appointment. What I found out in the appointment was IF your child suffers a vaccine injury getting a doc to "call it" and say point blank "vaccine reaction" is never going to happen. No where in any of his documentation were the words "Vaccine reaction." The developmental pediatrician gave me a prescription for serum mercury level basically to appease me. She did not diagnose him anything but wrote to re-eval in one year. (Even I know 2 months after administration there would not be a measurable serum mercury level as it hides interstitially.)

 

We really were left on our own to deal with what had happened. It felt like no one we saw would even say the words "vaccine reaction." But in the medical community's defense, it was 2001, and things were starting to get a little heated when it came down to vax. But as a parent, I felt that no one would even touch us.

(Did I worry about VAERS? No. Did I file? No. It was not where my thoughts were. I became completely consumed with trying to address my son's current needs and the change in my son.)

 

I've always felt on the brim of the this Autism/Vaccine debate. I'm a nurse with a child who was a little "off" IMO (he didn't crawl until 10 mos, walked at 12 though, arm flapped, and had severe reflux) prior to his vax at 17 mos. But with that series of vax, he suffered a reaction, and lost his speech, and changed before our very eyes.

It was very, very frightening and worse, we were being told it didn't happen.

 

Also, this is a HUGE point for me now.... my son was vax'd at less than an hour old with Hep B. Looking back, what was I thinking agreeing to that? I cannot for the life of me imagine why I would agree to vaccine an infant less than an hour old, who is not HepB+ nor were we Hep B+, with a Hep B vaccine. I had worked on the streets with AIDS patients back in the early 90s, I had worked on a BMT unit with leuks, I had administered chemo products, I had so much experience in immune support - yet I vaccinated my >1 hour old baby! But that's what the routine was in 2001. Furthermore, I had been vaccinated for HepB in the 90s, as a nurse, and rec'd the follow-up after a needle stick injury in 1997 -- all bases covered. I can't help but cringe to think what that vax must have done to his immune system.

 

So, my personal belief, through our own experience, and others we've met, is the "bullet and the gun theory." I believe my son was predisposed genetically or environmentally to ASD but the environmental insult (via vax) at 17 mos definitely was the GUN that seemed to push him over the edge. And no, we have to ASD in the families.

 

Am I comfortable vax'ing at full schedule my younger 2 now? Not on your nelly - especially my younger guy. I saw some quirks in my little guy, he had a large head circumference as a baby (which because of his brother was ID'd early and monitored), he did a bit of arm flapping early on, and he also was very spitty as a baby. If the vax at 17 mos was what finally tipped the scales for my older, I am certainly freaked out over vaxing my little guy. Truthfully, so is my current pediatric physician's group. They're not pushing me either. So far at 6yo he has received zero vax. My plan is to wait until after 7yo (prior to 7 they "catch up" the kids, after 7 it's a different schedule).

 

This ASD thing... I don't know. There's so much more to it. We haven't even begin to touch it. But I wouldn't discount a correlation between environmental insult (vax) and ASD. I don't think there's a causal relationship, but I believe there's a correlation in my son's case... maybe just "one more" insult is all it takes to tip the scales.

Edited December 1, 2011 by cjbeach

[katilac]

I remember reading that after Japan dropped vaccination until after the age of 2, the rate of autism dropped precipitously.

 

According to the links I'm finding, you are remembering incorrectly. They did indeed try not giving the vaccines, but it had no effect on autism rates.

 

 

Autism Rises Despite Vaccine Ban

 

No Effect from MMR Withdrawl

[KatieH]

Do you find it problematic that childhood vaccines have gone from maybe 3 in my childhood (I'm over 50) to the current level of 69 doses from literally birth to age 18, if you do everything they recommend?

 

No. I think it's wonderful that I'm able to protect my children from so many more diseases now than I could have decades ago.

 

Could we be overdoing it? One negative effect to older generations has occurred in that the parents and grandparents no longer get their natural boosters that occur when their own children have all the childhood diseases and they nurse them through it.

 

So get your adult boosters. I have mine.

 

 

Now we've got shingles popping up in old people, and all sorts of repeated disease patterns because needle immunity is generally not lifetime immunity, as recovering from the mumps or chicken pox really was (assuming the natural boosters in place that are now not).

 

Again, get your adult boosters.

 

That argument is without merit. If you are "protected" by vaccination and it really does work, then you have nothing to worry about. The ones you really need to worry about are newly vaccinated people shedding virus everywhere after the vaccines, by the way. They warn chemo patients to stay away from the recently vaccinated.

 

No one claims vaccines provide 100% protection. That's one reason it's so important to have everyone vaccinated. If every one is fully vaccinated, then it's less likely that those who don't receive full immunization from their vaccines are going to contract a VPD. This link pretty effectively destroys the ridiculous "vaccine shedding" myth. http://luckylosing.com/2011/10/13/vaccine-shedding-time-up-for-another-vaccine-myth

 

Chemo patients aren't given a blanket warning to stay away from anyone who's been vaccinated. It's only the few vaccinations that contain live viruses that could potentially be a problem.

 

 

http://www.cancer.org/Treatment/TreatmentsandSideEffects/PhysicalSideEffects/InfectionsinPeoplewithCancer/infections-in-people-with-cancer

[TravelingChris]

No, I am happy that there are vaccines for more diseases that my kids will never get. When I was born, there wasn't even a MMR vaccine. I grew up with older children who had had polio. Babies would get meningitis. Teens would die from meningitis. Hepatitis was a risk when traveling.

 

On a secondary point, about our immune systems- between my dh and I, he has gotten more immunizations since he is active duty military. Guess who has the auto-immune diseases- me. I don't think the immunizations had anything to do with it at all. I know that Rheumatoid Arthritis is much, much older than immunizations. Same thing with asthma. Both of those are auto-immune diseases.

 

Because I was on strong immuno-suppressants, we had to do delayed and more spaced out vaccinations for our youngest. Guess which one is the only one who seems to also have autoimmune issues= of course, that one. Oh, and she had some of them before man of her vaccinations.

 

Oh, and with regards to StaceyinLA, there aren't new diseases coming out. SOme, like the flu, are always mutating and were mutating before we had flu vaccines too. Others like Hepatitis B, for example, were simply not identified before technological advances. We are identifying old diseases much better nowadays. One of my disease was identified in the 1800's but it wasn't discovered to be a problem of the immune system until a few decades ago.

[justamouse]

My MILs first brother died of an MMR vax. MIL and her other brother had reactions. My husband got a horrible case of measles from the MMR, and my SIL had a bad reaction. My MIL was telling me this week that her mother was a basket case when her grandson (my Dh) got the measles from the vax. She was terrified he would die, too.

 

I have two 2nd cousins with autism, and a host of ADD on my side.

 

We delay and are extremely selective. I had a Dr of Pharmacology and FDA liaison tell me flat out to not give my kids the varicella vax, that it would cause a plague of shingles. Not that he would ever sign a piece of paper saying so...

 

I refuse all hep shots as newborns.

 

A good friend level 4 NICU nurse declined hep b and delayed shots for all of her kids, and has told me horror stories of babies dying form being given 5 shots in one day (she refused the Drs orders, so the Dr went to a younger nurse).

Edited December 1, 2011 by justamouse

[Haiku]

I had a Dr of Pharmacology and FDA liaison tell me flat out to not give my kids the varicella vax, that it would cause a plague of shingles.

 

My mom had chicken pox when she was a kid and she got shingles as an adult.

 

Tara

[linguistmama]

Can anyone tell me what the pro vax response is to other diseases declining? Like tuberculosis, scarlet fever and other things that we don't vax for here. I've seen the graphs from the anti vax side for diseases that the US routinely vaxes for and the response about cherry picking data from the pro vax side. I've just never seen a good response to the anti vax claim that improvements in sanitation and diet have helped the decline of non vax diseases.

[Audrey]

There is no link between autism and vaccines. People who don't vaccinate are endangering the public health and risking the lives of their children and other people's children. Plain and simple.

 

Bill

 

 

We no longer vaccinate our ds. We did so, on a selective, delayed schedule, briefly and until he had a severe reaction to his first MMR. Our doctor at the time, as well as our current doctor have recommended that we cease vaccinations indefinitely.

 

 

So, watch out everyone! I'm a selfish parent putting my kid out there to infect your herd. :glare:

[Audrey]

My mom had chicken pox when she was a kid and she got shingles as an adult.

 

Tara

 

 

Yes. Shingles is a result of having acquired the chicken pox virus. It is a re-activation of the dormant virus that manifests in shingles. Giving your child the chicken pox vaccine injects them with dormant virus which could result in shingles later in life. However, it should be noted that not everyone who has had chicken pox will have shingles.

[justamouse]

My mom had chicken pox when she was a kid and she got shingles as an adult.

 

Tara

 

The theory is that you want to get a good enough case of pox so that you don't get shingles. Shingles are normally seen in people who had light cases.

[Haiku]

Shingles is a result of having acquired the chicken pox virus. It is a re-activation of the dormant virus that manifests in shingles.

 

Yes, I know.

 

Tara

[TravelingChris]

Audrey, your child is the type of child who should not get vaccinated and all of us who are pro-vaccination are not pro-vaccination for people with indications against it such as previous bad reactions or allergies to the component (often eggs).

[MrsJewelsRae]

We do not vaccinate at all, and no, it's not because of Andrew Wakefield or Jenny McCarthy. I will not sacrifice my child for the sake of the herd. VAERS does not accurately reflect the true # of reactions, not only because of parental under reporting, but because of physician denial of the connection. My youngest is anaphylactic to eggs, peanuts, milk and soy; I am not willing to see if his boat can tolerate vaccines in order to appease the pro vax camp that he truly cannot tolerate it, when he required hospitalization twice just for starting solids to things he is not allergic to. I also will not ignore or downplay the many mothers who insist that their child regressed immediately following immunization. Funny how many in the pro vax camp accuse non vaxers of being uneducated and ignorant when the reality is that most people vax w/o question or any research simply because the schedule says so. I have done a ton of research on both sides before making my decision. The schedule is not developed with the utmost importance on the health and safety of each infant, but rather for convenience that they pack all the shots together. I respect that others will come to different conclusions then I have, and I respect a parents right to chose whether to delay, space, vaccinate on schedule or decline/stop vaccinations altogether.

[Mommy_of_4]

When DS was born he received all the vaccines on schedule up to a yr even though he had some horrible side effects. He cried for a week straight, and would not nurse. I had to pump and feed him with a syringe. So when DD1 was born we decided to space them out and only do 1 vaccine at a time. She still had bad reactions, worse than DS. Uncontrollable fever, inconsolable crying, rash, diarrhea and just a glazed look on her face. When I found out I was pregnant with DD3 I immediately told DH "No more vaccines." I just had this horrible feeling that something bad would happen if she received any vaccines. She is now 6 months old and I do not regret my decision at all. I honestly do not give a crap about herd immunity. My one priority is to make sure MY children are safe, not anybody else's. I am not going to put my childs life/health on the line just for the sake of herd immunity.

[In2why]

And Andrew Wakefield's debunked faked research was clean? :confused:

 

My grandmother was a nurse when polio and the like were rampant. She was a nurse for 45 years. It isn't just hype to sell vaccines.

 

I may vaccinate more slowly but I will vaccinate. I don't think choosing to vaccinate equals sheeple to 'Big Pharma'.

 

 

 

I delayed vaccinations. More in line with the European schedule. But I did vaccinate and I will really open a can of worms, because while I believe in parental rights, I also believe that not vaccinating is irresponsible.

 

Children who are not vaccinated are in large protected by the "herd". But that is beginning to change. If the trend continues and these once rare and preventable childhood diseases continue to grow in populations, parents will wish they only had the risk of side effects from the vaccinations to worry about. It is easy to opt out when others are getting the shot and protecting your unvaccinated child by keeping the diseases out of the norm, but quite a few areas are losing that herd protection.

[In2why]

Of course they do. They are educated in such a way that I would expect they would accept the paradigm. It would be really hard to sleep at night if they they were asking parents to do something they were unwilling to do.

 

I also think it is fair to say it would be career suicide to come out publicly against or even questioning vaccine.

 

I also think the "Agatha down the street" thing is a little condescending. Most people I know who decide not to vaccinate or delay/selective vaccinate spend many, many hours researching. There are a number of parents on this forum (many of whom are quite educated, according to a recent poll) who do not vaccinate. Do you really think they just read "something, somewhere" before coming to their decision?

 

I don't know anyone who avoid vaccines only due to fears of autism. For many it does not even crack the top reasons.

 

 

I think many people make the decision after researching it for themselves but I think people also follow trends and want to be good parents without even understanding the research. Not vaccinating became the hip crunchy mommy thing for some people without any real thought except what was reflected back to them from people who thought the same way. I don't think it points to anyone being less eduated and certainly not less caring, it is just human nature.

[In2why]

Audrey, your child is the type of child who should not get vaccinated and all of us who are pro-vaccination are not pro-vaccination for people with indications against it such as previous bad reactions or allergies to the component (often eggs).

 

 

Yes, exactly. There are some people who should not be vaccinated and I am glad that the herd offers them some protection.

[Karen in CO]

We no longer vaccinate our ds. We did so, on a selective, delayed schedule, briefly and until he had a severe reaction to his first MMR. Our doctor at the time, as well as our current doctor have recommended that we cease vaccinations indefinitely.

 

 

So, watch out everyone! I'm a selfish parent putting my kid out there to infect your herd. :glare:

 

Me too, although we never made it to the MMR. It was the DTaP that my youngest reacted to. I had very different opinions about vaccinations before her reaction.

[Lady Florida.]

Yes, exactly. There are some people who should not be vaccinated and I am glad that the herd offers them some protection.

 

 

And with fewer people vaccinating, those kids who truly shouldn't get vaccinated will lose that protection.

[In2why]

We do not vaccinate at all, and no, it's not because of Andrew Wakefield or Jenny McCarthy. I will not sacrifice my child for the sake of the herd. VAERS does not accurately reflect the true # of reactions, not only because of parental under reporting, but because of physician denial of the connection. My youngest is anaphylactic to eggs, peanuts, milk and soy; I am not willing to see if his boat can tolerate vaccines in order to appease the pro vax camp that he truly cannot tolerate it, when he required hospitalization twice just for starting solids to things he is not allergic to. I also will not ignore or downplay the many mothers who insist that their child regressed immediately following immunization. Funny how many in the pro vax camp accuse non vaxers of being uneducated and ignorant when the reality is that most people vax w/o question or any research simply because the schedule says so. I have done a ton of research on both sides before making my decision. The schedule is not developed with the utmost importance on the health and safety of each infant, but rather for convenience that they pack all the shots together. I respect that others will come to different conclusions then I have, and I respect a parents right to chose whether to delay, space, vaccinate on schedule or decline/stop vaccinations altogether.

 

I also understand why you don't want to Vax, there are real medical issues. But for some people, choosing not to Vax is like me sending my kid around yours with a peanut butter and banana sandwich to share. The heck with protecting him eh.....get that natural immune system working with some peanut butter.

 

My frustration comes from watching some Mom's in our local playgroup. Very few of them were making a decision based on what was best for their child, or actual research, they were following the Mommy trend at the time. Luckily now that some of the hysteria is dying down people are really making informed decisions for their individual child, which I respect, but there for a while I am convinced that it was a fashionable statement and not an actual medical belief. Something akin to only being a "good" mommy if you bought a certain brand of car seat.

[kathymuggle]

I think many people make the decision after researching it for themselves but I think people also follow trends and want to be good parents without even understanding the research. Not vaccinating became the hip crunchy mommy thing for some people without any real thought except what was reflected back to them from people who thought the same way. I don't think it points to anyone being less eduated and certainly not less caring, it is just human nature.

 

I think the argument that lay people do not understand the research may have some validity. The research is complicated - as I am sure most of us know! If one does not understand the research, one can choose to look to the experts. The thing is, though, I do not trust the experts. I have valid reasons, the list is long, but the short version is pharmacy companies have far too much vested interest in vaccines (they sit on advisory panels at the CDC!) for me to trust them.

one source: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/18/health/policy/18cdc.html?_r=1)

 

As I do not trust them, I have to make a decision on my own. There are too many questions for me to inject a perfectly healthy infant or young child with something they are very, very unlikely to need.

Edited December 2, 2011 by kathymuggle

[In2why]

And with fewer people vaccinating, those kids who truly shouldn't get vaccinated will lose that protection.

 

Yes exactly!

 

Now I am off with my adult child to get an endoscopy.....so enough of my 2 cents from the cheap seats.

 

Truly ((hugs)) to everyone, I am feeling overly emotional these days and sometimes this board is my lifeline to adult conversation and even those I don't agree with, I just want to be hokey and say I am sending out some love to ALL of you, because I know that the one thing we all want more than anything is to be good parents and good people!

[justamouse]

I think the argument that lay people do not understand the research may have some validity. The research is complicated - as I am sure most of us know! If one does not understand the research, one can choose to look to the experts. The thing is, though, I do not trust the experts. I have valid reasons, the list is long, but the short version is pharmacy companies have far too much vested interest in vaccines (they sit on advisory panels at the CDC!) for me to trust them. As I do not trust them, I have to make a decision on my own. There are too many questions for me to inject a perfectly healthy infant or young child with something they are very, very unlikely to need.

:iagree:

 

It's not that I don't agree with vaccinations, it's that I completely distrust the FDA, the CDC and pharma.

 

The FDA is an incestuous entity made up of Pharma CEOs and 'former' lobbyists. If you want me to trust them, make the 'FDA' a private institution that is audited by a private company with no vested interest in the drugs made or the companies.

[kathymuggle]

Yes exactly!

 

Now I am off with my adult child to get an endoscopy.....so enough of my 2 cents from the cheap seats.

 

Truly ((hugs)) to everyone, I am feeling overly emotional these days and sometimes this board is my lifeline to adult conversation and even those I don't agree with, I just want to be hokey and say I am sending out some love to ALL of you, because I know that the one thing we all want more than anything is to be good parents and good people!

 

Good luck with the endoscopy!!!

 

I have actually been quite impressed with how non-agressively the hive handled this controversial topic.

[cjbeach]

:iagree:

 

It's not that I don't agree with vaccinations, it's that I completely distrust the FDA, the CDC and pharma.

 

The FDA is an incestuous entity made up of Pharma CEOs and 'former' lobbyists. If you want me to trust them, make the 'FDA' a private institution that is audited by a private company with no vested interest in the drugs made or the companies.

I've seen with my own eyes the amount of grant money coming from big pharma to provide "research." (In otherwords, it's a really good way for big pharma to keep control of what is researched and what is published.)

[Haiku]

Yes, exactly. There are some people who should not be vaccinated and I am glad that the herd offers them some protection.

 

Unfortunately, there are many kids who would tolerate vaccination just fine whose parents won't vaccinate them, so herd immunity is breaking down. Those who can't be vaccinated are losing the protection of herd immunity. So are those who are vaccinated.

 

My son, who is vaccinated, got pertussis last year. It was HORRIBLE and lasted almost 2 months. It went around my city, and over 70 kids were seen by the local children's hospital. Some of the kids who got it were vaccinated. Many were not. I know that people could jump up and down and scream, "See! If vaccines worked, your son wouldn't have gotten pertussis!" To which I would respond, the other four of us in the family did NOT get pertussis, despite the fact that household members have a 90% chance of catching it from the infected family member.

 

After dealing with pertussis for weeks on end (which was awful in and of itself), we then got to deal with the ire of the local unvaccinated population among our circle of friends and acquaintances. We were publicly called out as being irresponsible and uncaring because our son exposed other kids at a birthday party, when we didn't even know he had pertussis. We should have known there were a bunch of unvaccinated kids at the party and kept our son home, even though we didn't know he had pertussis. We were called all sorts of horrible names by people who apparently wanted it both ways: not to vaccinate their kids, and not to have their kids at risk.

 

I've posted here before about my dad's mother's family, who lost 9 of their 13 kids to what are now vaccine-preventable diseases, including three who died in one week.

 

Tara

[Mrs Twain]

There were a couple cases of measles recently in a granola town that I know of. One of the cases was in a child who went to a private school. They had to shut down the school for weeks, and the granola parents were waiting in line for their kids to get immunized for measles.

 

This scenario is going to start happening a lot more frequently. I just hope that it is no too late when you anti-vaxers decide to start immunizing your kids. Obviously, if your child had a severe reaction to an immunization or some other contraindication, no one would expect you to vaccinate. But the majority of anti-vaxers don't have kids with any contraindications.

 

I'll say one more time that I watched a five year old child die of tetanus, despite doing all that we could for him medically. The FDA and CDC are not just trying to manipulate people. They are trying to save lives in truth. At least get your kids immunized for tetanus if nothing else. Tetanus is so safe that we give it to prenant women.