lea1 Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I have been reading some old threads and have come across this statement several times. Is this true? Is Singapore Math really approximately one year ahead of most other math programs? That would mean that SM 1a (primary math, standards edition) is really for a beginning second grader? That seems off to me but I have not looked at others. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 No, it has a different scope and sequence than some math programs, but the end of 6th grade is the end of 6th grade math. Some topics are just taught earlier (such as multiplication and division). First graders often start in Singapore 1A and do just fine. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 The Standards Edition (which advances some topics compared to the US Edition) was designed to align with the expectations of scope and sequence in the California Public Schools. So I say, no. Kindergarteners often start out in Singapore 1A and do just fine ;) Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 :lol::lol::D:lol::lol: Spycar's av is cracking me up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 :lol::lol::D:lol::lol: Spycar's av is cracking me up. I'm getting excited about the 2012 Summer Games in London :D Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 a couple of old threads might help: is Singapore "a grade ahead" ? Singapore "ahead"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
................... Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I was looking to supplement our Saxon with Singapore, and so I was looking at the Singapore Scope and Sequence and it looks like Saxon 5/4 is totally on par with Singapore 4th grade for the most part. So maybe in the beginning it moves faster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boscopup Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I was looking to supplement our Saxon with Singapore, and so I was looking at the Singapore Scope and Sequence and it looks like Saxon 5/4 is totally on par with Singapore 4th grade for the most part. So maybe in the beginning it moves faster? It introduces multiplication in 1B, goes deep into multiplication (and I think division) in grade 2, does long division in 3A, etc. It doesn't introduce multi-digit multiplication until 4A as far as I can tell, which is normal. I think that's about the point where it starts to converge with "most programs". Those other topics are being done a year earlier than average. Again though, in the end, it's in the same place. If you were to use Singapore 1 for 2nd grade and continue at one level per year, you would end up with algebra in 9th grade, which is fine. Just be aware of that. It's not "ahead" in the sense that you'd hit algebra in 7th grade (though some go straight to algebra... I think that tends to be the kids that just don't need prealgebra, which is largely review anyway). The early levels of Singapore would definitely be ahead of the K-3 levels of Saxon in terms of scope and sequence. Like Singapore, Saxon has kids ready for prealgebra in 7th grade. So in the end, they are roughly in the same spot as far as which topics have been taught. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I have to match up the topics covered in Singapore PM SE with something on the CA math standards every month for our virtual charter, and for nearly all the MAJOR topics, Singapore is ahead by the middle grades. If you look on some of the previous threads, I've provided examples of this, so I'm not going to bother doing it again. Additionally, I have looked over the released STAR (CA state standardized test) questions for 2nd through 4th grades, and they are for the most part, comparable to the grade below in Singapore. Finally, I have seen a number of the homework assignments given in my district math program that supposedly meets the CA state standards (Houghton-Mifflin). I would say that a lot of those run TWO grades behind Singapore PM in terms of challenge level. I've had PS moms express astonishment that Singapore is covering in their 3rd grade book what the Houghton-Mifflin covers in 5th (or 4th vs. 6th). And I'm talking the PM textbook, not IP or CWP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crimson Wife Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Again though, in the end, it's in the same place. If you were to use Singapore 1 for 2nd grade and continue at one level per year, you would end up with algebra in 9th grade, which is fine. Just be aware of that. It's not "ahead" in the sense that you'd hit algebra in 7th grade (though some go straight to algebra... I think that tends to be the kids that just don't need prealgebra, which is largely review anyway). Singapore Discovering Math 1 combines pre-algebra with the first parts of algebra 1 and geometry. So a student doing it in 7th would be slightly ahead of the new standard of algebra 1 in 8th grade. It's hard to compare directly because the secondary sequence in Singapore is "integrated" rather than separated out like the traditional U.S. sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Singapore is not ahead, though strong math students can move directly into algebra at the end of 6B if the algebra program incorporates a strong prealgebra base (such as Jacobs). However, this is probably true for most programs. That said, a student who *masters* the material in say 2A/B will likely score in the 99th+ percentile on standardized tests and have a grade equivalent score of somewhere around 5.0. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennynd Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I think in the sense of "concept" introdcution. I will say no. since it align with the standard. But the challenge level. I will say, yes, it is 1 grade ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazyforlatin Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 But wouldn't a student who works through IP and CWP be a grade ahead? I can see that the workbooks would be grade level, but some of those problems in the IP and CWP are kind of hard or do students in ps get those kinds of problems? In my area the schools use Everyday Math and I sure wish I could take a look at the books. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wapiti Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 But wouldn't a student who works through IP and CWP be a grade ahead? I can see that the workbooks would be grade level, but some of those problems in the IP and CWP are kind of hard or do students in ps get those kinds of problems? I don't know the answer to your question, but I think it's important to distinguish between scope and sequence on the one hand, and depth on the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Having taken three kids through SM, I'd say that yes, it is ahead. Of course, it does NOT just push it exactly a year ahead. So, no you shouldn't think 1st grade SM = 2nd grade whatever. I think it gradually accelerates, so possibly puts 7 years of content in 6 years, or 5 in 4, or whatever. I think it teaches much more advanced problem solving schools than most curricula, thereby better preparing the child for the transition to advanced math. I believe that if you follow the SM sequence, then the child should be well prepared for PreAlg (or even a leap to Algebra if desired) at the end of 6th grade. In fact, a bright kid (my 9 yo for example) might well be ready for a challenging PreAlg course by the middle or end of PM 5 (as mine was well prepared). I am confident that a child who progresses through SM1-6 mastering the content (according the text/wkbk combo) will be well prepared for a one year PreAlg in 7th grade, then Algebra in 8th. I don't know if that is "ahead" in most areas, but it is certainly ahead of the sequence used in our WV schools for most kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twoxcell Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 It is definitely ahead of the PS around here. My ds has a cousin in the same grade as him in a local PS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lea1 Posted November 8, 2011 Author Share Posted November 8, 2011 Sorry I am just now getting back to this as I had to go out. Thanks for all of the replies. Any ideas of how SM compares to MM? I'm just curious. One of my sons will likely be able to do SM with no issues but I may have to move the other one to another math program. They are very competitive and one seems to be catching on much quicker than the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I have to match up the topics covered in Singapore PM SE with something on the CA math standards every month for our virtual charter, and for nearly all the MAJOR topics, Singapore is ahead by the middle grades. If you look on some of the previous threads, I've provided examples of this, so I'm not going to bother doing it again. Additionally, I have looked over the released STAR (CA state standardized test) questions for 2nd through 4th grades, and they are for the most part, comparable to the grade below in Singapore. Finally, I have seen a number of the homework assignments given in my district math program that supposedly meets the CA state standards (Houghton-Mifflin). I would say that a lot of those run TWO grades behind Singapore PM in terms of challenge level. I've had PS moms express astonishment that Singapore is covering in their 3rd grade book what the Houghton-Mifflin covers in 5th (or 4th vs. 6th). And I'm talking the PM textbook, not IP or CWP. I have to agree on the homework front. Even accounting for the fact that homework is often "easier" than the work done in class, I was surprised at what 4th graders in our "good" school disctrict were working on. My son, who is doing SM4, could solve the 6th graders homework. I think what's at work here is the DEPTH and level of conceptuality. The questions given to the 4th grader WERE indeed "fractions" and all the topics related to it. But the questions were very easy, basic questions--not challenging. So while it might seem that a scope and sequence is equivalent to SM, the challenge might not be there as it is with SM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebacabunch Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 According to the singapore math website they are a year ahead. My 5th grader is in the 4a text as suggested by their site. It is at or ahead of the CA 5th grade math standard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy22alyns Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 :lol::lol::D:lol::lol: Spycar's av is cracking me up. I just realized what it is! :lol::lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhotoGal Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I'm getting excited about the 2012 Summer Games in London :D Bill :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halcyon Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I just realized what it is! :lol::lol: me too :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I have to match up the topics covered in Singapore PM SE with something on the CA math standards every month for our virtual charter, and for nearly all the MAJOR topics, Singapore is ahead by the middle grades. If you look on some of the previous threads, I've provided examples of this, so I'm not going to bother doing it again. Additionally, I have looked over the released STAR (CA state standardized test) questions for 2nd through 4th grades, and they are for the most part, comparable to the grade below in Singapore. Finally, I have seen a number of the homework assignments given in my district math program that supposedly meets the CA state standards (Houghton-Mifflin). I would say that a lot of those run TWO grades behind Singapore PM in terms of challenge level. I've had PS moms express astonishment that Singapore is covering in their 3rd grade book what the Houghton-Mifflin covers in 5th (or 4th vs. 6th). And I'm talking the PM textbook, not IP or CWP. I would agree with this. I know SM Standards edition is suppose to be in line with CA standards, but based on what I am seeing in my son's PS 1st grade classroom, enVision grade 1 can't be compared either in scope or depth with SM. I spent some time reviewing what appears to be CA enVision's 1st grade curriculum (my kiddo has a password on their site) and it doesn't look like they will be doing regrouping. There is no multiplication or division in the first grade either. The difficulty level of problems is similar to simple problems in the SM workbook. I haven't yet seen problems coming even close to IP and/or CWP in difficulty. This could of course change in upper elementary years, but so far SM appears positively ahead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I would agree with this. I know SM Standards edition is suppose to be in line with CA standards, but based on what I am seeing in my son's PS 1st grade classroom, enVision grade 1 can't be compared either in scope or depth with SM. I spent some time reviewing what appears to be CA enVision's 1st grade curriculum (my kiddo has a password on their site) and it doesn't look like they will be doing regrouping. There is no multiplication or division in the first grade either. The difficulty level of problems is similar to simple problems in the SM workbook. I haven't yet seen problems coming even close to IP and/or CWP in difficulty. This could of course change in upper elementary years, but so far SM appears positively ahead. Programs like enVision (which you're aware my son's school uses too) are part of the reason we use Primary Mathematics at home. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigger Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I think what's at work here is the DEPTH and level of conceptuality. The questions given to the 4th grader WERE indeed "fractions" and all the topics related to it. But the questions were very easy, basic questions--not challenging. So while it might seem that a scope and sequence is equivalent to SM, the challenge might not be there as it is with SM. This! And I also think it depends on where you live to make the comparison. We're in 2B right now and DS's friends in the same grade, but attending public school, are woefully behind where he is. Now granted, he's ahead a bit, but they're still working on things he mastered in 1B and they simply won't even be introduced to things he's doing now until third grade or beyond. In looking at the scope and sequence of the PS here, for second grade: Compare & Order numbers to 1,000 Use a number line within 50 Place value to 100's 10 more, 10 less to 1,000 Three digit addition & subtraction without regrouping Double digit addition & subtracting with regrouping Relational symbols +, -, =, >, < Adding & Subtracting facts to 20 Estimate sums to 100 Measure and estimate length (inches) Concepts of the metric system measurement Value of coins Money to $1.00 Graphs (simple) That's it...so in our case, SM is light years ahead compared to our public school...but I'm sure that's not the case in other school districts with a more rigorous scope & sequence. Also, from what I can see and what I hear from his friends, they don't do word problems. When they've seen some of DS's word problems he has to do they're totally confused about why he has to do those too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 :iagree:And I also think it depends on where you live to make the comparison. Our local schools begin to learn multiplication in grade 3. We started in first grade with Singapore, MM and TT. I sat with a 3rd grade public school teacher at my son's soccer game a couple weeks ago. She said that my girls were doing in Singapore what 4th/6th graders do in her school. I don't give much credence to public school standards in elementary. I take a more global perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigger Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Our local schools begin to learn multiplication in grade 3. We started in first grade with Singapore, MM and TT. I sat with a 3rd grade public school teacher at my son's soccer game a couple weeks ago. She said that my girls were doing in Singapore what 4th/6th graders do in her school. I don't give much credence to public school standards in elementary. I take a more global perspective. Similar experience here - a number of parents in my son's cub scout den are pretty dismayed when they look at the work he's doing and what their kids are bringing home to do for homework. One dad HS'ed last year overseas and when returning to the states, picked our location to live due to the rave reviews about the elementary schools here - now he's getting ready to pull his son out at the Christmas break since his son is only repeating basic concepts they learned over a year ago in HS (they did MM last year) and his son is completely bored to tears. Two other dads have asked if DS is advanced in math - and I've replied "a bit, he's about a half year ahead of schedule"....because, to me, that's the truth - but if I compared to the PS here, he's then very advanced, doing what is 3rd-4th grade here - but he's not really, it's just context, ykwim? One of the two decided to start doing some after-schooling with his son since his kid is also bored to death in math and is quite mathy. The other thing that's crazy here is that they do so little science and history - it's ridiculous - what they're covering this year in second is basically what most HS science considers K, maybe 1st....and it's scant at that, nothing in depth, just the bare basics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Five More Minutes Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 I think that SM is ahead of the math programs in our local PS for a couple of reasons. First, when I look at our curriculum expectations, SM does introduce some concepts slightly ahead of the provincial standards. Not a full grade ahead, but slightly ahead. Second, though, is that very rarely are all curriculum expectations thoroughly met in a classroom over the course of a year. Given the class sizes, plus the myriad of expectations that teachers face in their lesson planning, different curriculum standards may get skipped or be touched on so briefly that they really aren't learned by students. Rarely do they get treated with the type of creativity and depth that SM brings to topics. So ... DD6 is using SM1, and from what I can see she is already dealing with material that her peers won't encounter until next year. SM is at least partly responsible for this acceleration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Yes. One of my friends was raving about how advanced third grade enVision math homework was showing me a word problem her son brought home. I had to really resist the urge to pull out SM 1B and show her that 3rd grade word problem was equivalent to 1st grade work in SM (something like you have four tables each has four legs, how many legs altogether). I think people are oblivious at least around here about math education and parental ignorance is very much responsible for a lot of this mess. So I guess yes, SM is ahead even in CA even though SM claims to be in line with CA standards. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Annic Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 As far as I know, the standards edition includes everything required by California state standards at each grade level. That does not mean it aligns strictly. California standards has no multiplication and division in second grade, for example, I don't think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Momling Posted November 8, 2011 Share Posted November 8, 2011 Our schools use TERC Investigations. Singapore is vastly ahead in scope and sequence of this program. I think teachers are aware of this... I was told that TERC doesn't meet the new common core state standards that have been adopted and they'll eventually have to supplement or change programs. :hurray: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 It is ahead of most places we have lived, but on par for a few good schools we have lived near. However, as many have said, the depth allows students to do well figuring out advanced concepts and also to think and understand the math deeply. Most students are used to doing 300 of the same problem and have trouble with doing something different, they have trouble making the switch and thinking about what they are doing. The Singapore problems are set up so that this problem is not encountered as much, it teaches more for understanding and flexibility of approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 ...to pacify the grandparents. He always took the test which was at least a year, sometimes two years ahead of the number on the SM book. Calvin is very bright but not mathy. TAKs is not a great standard, but it is one state's standard. One thing to bear in mind: although SM presents topics in a way that encourages deep thinking, students get used to the style of presentation of whatever curriculum they use. I finally switched to another course because Calvin lacked flexibility in dealing with questions: he could do 'Singapore style' questions but panicked when questions looked different. So it's worth using something else as a supplement, just to get the flexibility going. Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beth in SW WA Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 So it's worth using something else as a supplement, just to get the flexibility going. Laura :iagree::iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kathy_overman Posted November 10, 2011 Share Posted November 10, 2011 We brought home our 3rd and 2nd graders this year from PS. Our 3rd grader had to start in Singapore 2A because they had not studied regrouping, multiplication or division in PS. These subjects are not taught until 3rd grade in our PS. We did not find such a huge gap in our 2nd grader. We started him in 1A, but in 2 months he breezed through it because there were no new concepts that he did not learn in PS last year. Singapore is certainly ahead of our local PS system math curriculum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tgwagner Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 In Singapore, the kids start first grade in January of the year they turn 7, so that would mean that the material in 1A is well suited for an American student in their second semester of first grade. That is why many websites will suggest that your student start with the "B" book from the previous grade. I've followed this schedule for my ds, and it seems to be right on par. I'm not sure if Singapore is "ahead' of other curricula, but it does present the material in a way that is very appealing and effective especially for visual learners. When presenting new material, Singapore presents the material in the pattern of concrete, visual and finally abstract. It is a great way to learn math concepts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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