when your child simply refuses to do schoolwork?

[Haiku]

But I do think it is a little strong to call the view that missing a meal because life wouldn't wait abusive.

 

True dat. I get a little tired of people on the more liberal end of the parenting spectrum pulling out the "abuse" card with the regularity that I see when they are disagreeing with those on the more conservative end.

 

Refusing to feed your child for days on end is abusive. Starving a child is abusive. Telling a child "Here is a perfectly nutritious meal, eat it or wait for the next meal" or "Oh, sorry you didn't show up in time for dinner, the next meal is breakfast" or the oh-so-traditional "going to bed without supper" is not abuse. Two of my children (not the one whose chose of her own free will to read instead of eat) were starved in orphanages. I take extreme exception to the idea that missing one meal or snack is abusive, especially when the child chooses it.

 

Tara

[Hedgehog]

True dat. I get a little tired of people on the more liberal end of the parenting spectrum pulling out the "abuse" card with the regularity that I see when they are disagreeing with those on the more conservative end.

 

Refusing to feed your child for days on end is abusive. Starving a child is abusive. Telling a child "Here is a perfectly nutritious meal, eat it or wait for the next meal" or "Oh, sorry you didn't show up in time for dinner, the next meal is breakfast" or the oh-so-traditional "going to bed without supper" is not abuse. Two of my children (not the one whose chose of her own free will to read instead of eat) were starved in orphanages. I take extreme exception to the idea that missing one meal or snack is abusive, especially when the child chooses it.

 

Tara

 

Thank you Tara; I find myself wanting to say this sort of thing from time to time, but I do get weary of the call of abuse, so I tend not to bother.

 

But I'll stand behind you and wave my agreement flag. ;) :iagree:

[FO4UR]

I would arrange for testing (IQ, LDs, learning style) ASAP; I would bet that you have a gifted, visual/spatial learner on your hands, and treating this as a matter of laziness/defiance is not going to get you very far. Their brains are wired differently, they think and learn in very different ways — it's not just a matter of "thinking in pictures." You say that she's extremely compliant in every other way but just "shuts down" over school — that doesn't sound like disobedience or a power struggle to me, that sounds like a kid whose brain is shutting down because she needs to learn in a different way.

 

The suggestions here for punishing her "defiance" by withholding food, or taking pencil and paper away from a child who's only pleasureable outlet at the moment seems to be writing and drawing, just makes me want to cry. I have a kid who was just like yours (extremely bright, very sweet & compliant but hated school, loved to draw, picky eater due to sensory issues, etc), and I can tell you that those tactics would only have made things worse — and would have destroyed our relationship in the process. Now, in 7th grade, he's doing Athenaze Greek, Algebra, ancient history with TC lectures, interest-led science, computer programming & robotics, and he loves homeschooling, loves his life, and is a very happy kid. Because I had him tested, I researched like crazy, and I met his needs, so that he can learn the way his brain works instead of trying to force him to "learn" in ways that absolutely do not work for him.

 

Please don't believe that your DD is just lazy, disobedient, or defiant; she needs your help, not punishment. :(

 

Jackie

 

 

My 8yo is most definitely a VSL with learning quirks. Mine isn't extremely compliant otherwise though...hmmm...(He's a good kid, just not a compliant one.) He is most resistent to subjects that give him the biggest trouble (spelling). He wishes he could live back when spelling didn't matter.:lol: He also wishes that he didn't have to pick up his things...he loves to work and help, but only at jobs that are new to him.

 

I agree that punishments won't help with this one. I'm convinced that boundaries will though. Where those boundaries are drawn may differ child to child, but they need to be drawn. Kids need to be able to draw boundaries too. Mine will tell me that he needs a break, and if I push - I pay for it. I'm seeing that some of his resistance is b/c I'm still trying to finish the page instead of teach the child. Shame on me. Sigh!!!

 

Then...sometimes I think that all my tweaking to meet his needs has given him the idea that he can negotiate to get out of work.

 

There has to be a balance...I'm searching for that...

 

 

 

Yes! These kids are often able to understand the "big picture," and to think abstractly and analyze things at a much deeper level than other kids their ages, and yet they don't have the tools to work with yet. I always used to say that DS was born in the Logic Stage, and he has always found "grammar level" work — lots of drill & repetition & memorization — completely torturous. Many people will insist that those tasks are a "necessary foundation" for logic-level work, but I've not found that to be true with DS. And now that he's a much more fluent reader and has access to materials (books, TC courses, science programs, etc) that address subjects at a much deeper level than what one gets in elementary materials, he's sucking it all up like a sponge and absolutely thriving.

 

Honestly, I think the most important thing with these kids is to get them to the point where they can access material that is as deep and abstract as their thought processes without screwing them up before they get there. As long as they haven't learned to hate school work, there will be a big leap in their ability and motivation to learn once they get to the point where "logic- and rhetoric-stage" material meets the "logic- and rhetoric-stage" brains they were born with.

 

Jackie

 

 

Your posts resonate with me...they always do. I have a hard time *trusting* the process though. I don't think I'll rest easy until he's reading for himself what he devours through my reading aloud. Once he gets to that point, I can see him "unschooling" more rigorously than I could "school."

 

He has gotten comments from strangers at the park (on more than one occasion!!!) about his large vocabulary. The comment is always a variation of "My, you must read lots of good books!" and I can tell he feels uncomfortable b/c he isn't reading these books himself. His discomfort makes me uncomfortable...I wish he could be sheltered from the fact that other 8yo's are reading better...I wish he was sheltered from the fact that his little sister is reading circles around him (... his "defiance" picked up momentum about the time her reading took off over night, come to think of it...).

 

I have pictures of this kid rounding up children at the Children's Museum to give an impromptu lecture on the facts about Dinosaurs at the tender age of 6yo. (:lol::lol::lol:) This summer we visted New Salem, IL and he was carrying on intelligent conversations about Lincoln & Pioneer times with ANYONE and EVERYONE who would humor him. (...again with the comments from strangers...and this experienced actually convinced some of my family that HSing might actually be beneficial:tongue_smilie:) He is clearly a gifted little boy! I just gotta not screw him up...that is FAB advice.:001_smile:

[woolybear]

I have found for my ds this year, offering up motivation if it's done with a good attitude rather than punishment if it is not, has worked much better.

 

He is enjoying consistent screen time. He usually chooses to play something on the computer. Prior to this, screen time has been much more limited. I don't love it, but I sure do love his improved attitude. Now to get my second ds motivated.....:D

[linguistmama]

Corraleno, I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate reading your posts. :)

[Penelope]

True dat. I get a little tired of people on the more liberal end of the parenting spectrum pulling out the "abuse" card with the regularity that I see when they are disagreeing with those on the more conservative end.

 

Refusing to feed your child for days on end is abusive. Starving a child is abusive. Telling a child "Here is a perfectly nutritious meal, eat it or wait for the next meal" or "Oh, sorry you didn't show up in time for dinner, the next meal is breakfast" or the oh-so-traditional "going to bed without supper" is not abuse. Two of my children (not the one whose chose of her own free will to read instead of eat) were starved in orphanages. I take extreme exception to the idea that missing one meal or snack is abusive, especially when the child chooses it.

 

Tara

 

I wouldn't call the examples you gave "abuse", though they wouldn't be my first-line forms of discipline. The first one, I employ regularly, as a matter of fact. As an aside, I don't know how one can necessarily say what end of the parenting spectrum one falls on just by saying one believes withholding food is wrong. It is quite possible to be a strict parent with high standards and still believe this.

 

But to speak to the thread: I didn't get the idea we were talking about missing just one meal. That assumes that the child misses one meal and gets the message and problem is solved. It might work like that, but it might not. I assume someone that is posting on a message board having a consistent problem like this with a child day after day, has tried withholding privileges, and the OP even said she had. The posts talking about withholding meals talked about multiple meals during a day. From a child.

[IsabelC]

This may be a stupid question, but have you actually discussed it with your dd? I mean an in depth discussion, where she listens to you and you listen to her, at a time when you're not in the middle of a confrontation? It's likely that a bright 8yo kid would have some idea of what her problem is, if only you can get her to think it through and tell you honestly what the issue is.

 

Could you get her to take some responsibility herself, still with guidance from you of course? Maybe tell her here are the things that you need to learn, how do you suggest we go about it? Even if she proposes something that isn't really an option you'll still get a good idea of her preferences and be able to offer something that's less difficult/boring for her.

[IsabelC]

I wouldn't call the examples you gave "abuse", though they wouldn't be my first-line forms of discipline. The first one, I employ regularly, as a matter of fact. As an aside, I don't know how one can necessarily say what end of the parenting spectrum one falls on just by saying one believes withholding food is wrong. It is quite possible to be a strict parent with high standards and still believe this.

 

But to speak to the thread: I didn't get the idea we were talking about missing just one meal. That assumes that the child misses one meal and gets the message and problem is solved. It might work like that, but it might not. I assume someone that is posting on a message board having a consistent problem like this with a child day after day, has tried withholding privileges, and the OP even said she had. The posts talking about withholding meals talked about multiple meals during a day. From a child.

 

 

Apart from the whole abuse thing (because I'm going to trust that nobody on here would be withholding food to the detriment of their child's health) I believe it is damaging to use food as a reward or punishment in any way. I'm honestly surprised to hear so many people use 'healthy food only' as a punishment and/or 'treat food' as a reward. To train a child that healthy=punishment and junk=reward/gift could be setting her up for a lifetime of problems with eating ranging from occasional comfort eating right through to full blown, life threatening eating disorders.

 

Don't tell me that parenting isn't the sole cause of eating disorders. I already know that. But it is a contributing factor (and it was a big factor for me), and with the various estimates saying that up to 2/3 of adult women have disordered eating behaviors, I'm going to do everything I can to keep my daughters in the 1/3 with healthy eating behaviors.

[Blossom'sGirl]

I have a 8yo that has been very trying since K. With him I use SWB's advice, "Feed It!" (I don't think she phrases it just like that) Seriously I can see him decline throughout the day if he doesn't have something to eat every so often. I have had some of my older ds's wait for their lunch until something was finished, but it would be too much of a negative spiral with this child.

 

This 8yo is my greatest challenge as far as homeschooling goes, but he has never flat out refused to work. Many days he throws himself when I call him to work, so I send him to sit on our bottom stair step until he can work with a good attitude. In fact today he lost two weeks of Wii privileges, which he will really miss, because he rolled his eyes at me just one too many times. The eye-rolling has been going on for a long time, but today I decided to do battle with it.

 

I do have a written schedule for him so he can see that there is an end to each day's school grind and that getting done, along with a good attitude, can be rewarding.

 

I do agree that discussing the problem with your dd may help. As long as she is compliant in other areas of life why not let her take a little responsibility with her work. If you explain that this is what needs to be done, how are we going to make it happen? Maybe you will get more cooperation.

Edited October 18, 2011 by Blossom'sGirl
Reread the OP

[sagira]

This may be a stupid question, but have you actually discussed it with your dd? I mean an in depth discussion, where she listens to you and you listen to her, at a time when you're not in the middle of a confrontation? It's likely that a bright 8yo kid would have some idea of what her problem is, if only you can get her to think it through and tell you honestly what the issue is.

 

Could you get her to take some responsibility herself, still with guidance from you of course? Maybe tell her here are the things that you need to learn, how do you suggest we go about it? Even if she proposes something that isn't really an option you'll still get a good idea of her preferences and be able to offer something that's less difficult/boring for her.

 

:iagree:

[sagira]

For Butterflymommy, Clear Creek, and anyone else who may be dealing with a gifted/VSL child, I highly recommend the Eides Neurolearning Blog.

 

Fascinating stuff. Thanks. I feel like I am on both sides, though. I have both Auditory-Sequential in some stuff, but on the other hand I like the big picture, have poor listening skills (I have to be doing something else, writing notes works great), I'm very visually oriented, and lose track of time ridiculously easily. I'm also terrible at turning objects around in my head, and see words written in my head :D

 

Still trying to figure out what the best way is for ds to learn..

 

I agree, I wouldn't want to sacrifice the love of learning for the sake of "making them do it".

[Corraleno]

I think it's really important to listen to our kids, but I also think that many kids, especially as young as 8 or 9, are really not able to articulate how they think and what they need. My DS would not have been able to say "Well, I'm a visual-spatial learner, and like most VSLs I struggle with working memory and processing speed for verbal information, so repetition & drill don't work with me. I would prefer a curriculum that is hands-on, project-based, and interest-led, because that's how I learn best." :tongue_smilie:

 

I think that kids who've only been exposed to "schooly" type learning often don't even realize that there are other options. They just think "I hate school" and "I love to draw and play and make up stories" and it doesn't really occur to them that learning can happen in ways that are just as enjoyable as drawing and playing and making up stories. I think it could even seem overwhelming to some kids to be told "decide what to learn and how to learn it and I'll help you" — some kids might jump at that opportunity but others would panic.

 

I learned what my son needed by (1) observing how he learned (e.g. he could remember incredibly minute details from a documentary he watched several years ago, but couldn't remember what he read in an assigned book half an hour ago; he would spontaneously carry out science experiments and research things on his own, but would learn nothing from filling in a science worksheet), (2) having him tested (confirmed the giftedness, explained the slow processing speed and working memory issues), (3) doing lots of research on giftedness, dyslexia, VSL, etc., (4) presenting him with options, and (5) being flexible and willing to change course when needed.

 

If I'd asked DS, when I first pulled him out of school, "what do you want to learn?" he probably would have said "Nothing, I hate school." Instead I just started small and let one thing lead to another. Reading Percy Jackson (instead of assigned books) made him realize for the first time that he could "disappear" into a book and go to another place. Totally changed his attitude towards reading, and he's now a voracious reader. Percy Jackson led to an interest in Greek mythology, which led to an interest in Greek history, which led to an obsession with ancient Greece, including begging to study the language. This dyslexic, ADD, VSL, school-hater now works his butt off, 15+ hours/week, on Athenaze Greek because he's determined to learn it (and he has straight As in the class). But it's not something that would have ever occurred to him (or me!) a few years ago.

 

Jackie

[Guest submarines]

OH my. Demoralizing punishments, witholding food? Possibly these children would have a gentler time in a school. I am so just completely saddened by the harsh discipline talked about around here. It sometimes makes me feel ill and I think I would rather not visit this board and read any threads at all.

 

FOr some reason I thought this board would be a bigger promoter of GENTLE PARENTING. I guess I thought HSers all fell in that category, I guess not :(

 

I would really worry about scaring a child into fearing authoritative figures at this age. Sure when they are older they can understand the dark side of the law and what it is for but don't you think this poses a risk at this age? A child will end up afraid of school authority, police officers, anyone that can haul me and/or mommy away for not being good and doing "school."

 

Oy. I should not be responding to this because it is offensive but I am such an advocate for gentle parenting and have such a hard time with this.

 

I think there is some good gentle advice in this thread, and I'm sure the OP is grateful for some positive options.

 

I feel the same. :( Thank you for posting this.

 

I also agree with what Ellie suggests. Homeschooling allows us to vary our approaches depending on the child. Unschooling doesn't equal the lack of work ethics. It is clear that for that child, at this particular age, unschooling sounds like a great option. It doesn't have to be a forever option either. If the child embraces learning as a positive force, without threats and punishments, there's plenty of time for reintroducing the classical approach.

[sewingmama]

To me, though, while this approach may be effective in getting a child to do schoolwork, in the long run it may end up reinforcing the idea that school is boring and tedious, and that a child should try to just get it over with as quickly as possible so they can do "fun stuff."

 

The fact of the matter is that quite a bit of school stuff is not fun and it is tedious and a child does just have to get it done to go and and do things which are more appealing to them.

 

The issue isn't that the child thinks it is boring -the issue is that the child just doesn't want to do it. If it has to be done it has to be done -it's called teaching a child to prioritise -the necessary comes before the fun.

 

At University I wrote countless essays on topics I thought were boring -nevertheless I had to do them anyway. To help me get through the tedium I would reward myself with something I enjoyed doing as motivation.

 

I get really tired of hearing people say they want their child to love learning for it's own sake and to think all learning is fun and not work. We are expecting something from our children that most adults cannot do. I know I don't love learning just for the sake of it -I only love learning if it is something that interests me -which is the case for most humans.

[justLisa]

I don't want to further derail this thread, as I know the OP is looking for options. However, I want to make it clear I did not tell anyone they are abusing their child. I think certain punishments weather physical or not can be very damaging in more ways than you may realize. There is a always another way. It takes alot of work, and I don't really need anyone justifying what they do to ME, but I have a hard time believing a loving parent doesn't feel something is wrong with some of the "consequences" that have been stated here and other threads about this subject.

 

It can be very easy to misinterpret a post without any details. I only made an assumption based on the information given.

 

If I felt like there was some kind of behavior that I could pin on anything, and didn't know how to deal with, I would seek a professional opinion. You really have nothing to lose getting a different perspective.

[lewelma]

My ds at 7 was a "throw himself on the sofa" type for every subject. I considered it my number one priority to change this attitude, and make doing his school work an activity he *wanted* to do. I am pleased to say that I have turned it around in 6 months with positive reinforcement. He is such a sensitive type, that if I had tried negative reinforcement, I think I would have destroyed him.

 

For us, it was paper chains. Seems like such an insignificant reward, but it has changed his attitude from night to day. To start, each subject was 10 minutes (6 subjects), and he got to add one paper chain for every time he did the work with a good attitude. He got a special lacy chain for writing, because it was his most difficult. Then, we bumped it up, and he got a chain for good attitude and working independently for each subject. Then the subjects were longer, and there were more of them, etc. WOW. oh WOW. He now keeps track of how many he can get in a day for both independent and good attitude, and how many lacies (extra lacy for independence in writing), and how far he wants the chain to go, and how he is going to get it to stay up over the curtain rod, etc. Shockingly motivating. I guess you just have to find their trigger. I am ALL with those for positive reinforcement.

 

I would step way back. 2 subjects of 10 minutes each with a positive attitude, and move up from there. baby steps. Perhaps it is a call to grandma with the good news on attitude, perhaps it is a special outing with dad after 3 days, perhaps it is popping popcorn when you have earned enough kernels and watching a movie with mom. Whatever works. Talk to the child and ASK what would be motivating, and start small so that the child finds success from the first hour - and I mean the very first hour.

 

Good luck,

 

Ruth in NZ

Edited October 18, 2011 by lewelma

[Corraleno]

The fact of the matter is that quite a bit of school stuff is not fun and it is tedious and a child does just have to get it done to go and and do things which are more appealing to them.

That may be true in your house, but it's not true in mine.

 

I get really tired of hearing people say they want their child to love learning for it's own sake and to think all learning is fun and not work. We are expecting something from our children that most adults cannot do. I know I don't love learning just for the sake of it -I only love learning if it is something that interests me -which is the case for most humans.

I think you're misunderstanding what some of us are talking about. It has nothing to do with trying to make kids "think all learning is fun and not work," it's about cultivating a general attitude that learning is intrinsically enjoyable and rewarding, rather than being a "chore" that one must endure in order to get to the "fun stuff" — like TV and video games. In our family the "fun stuff" consists of things like zoo and museum trips, watching documentaries together, going geocaching or hiking (with binoculars, field guides, and mini sketchbooks), going to "star parties" with the local astronomy club, read-alouds with DH (who is British) doing lots of funny voices, playing chess or strategy board games together, collecting/identifying/studying interesting critters from the local river, etc.

 

There's no discrete line here between "school stuff" and "fun stuff" — we really do watch science documentaries and Teaching Company lectures for fun. We read magazines like Discover and Scientific American and Science Illustrated and my dad saves and sends us all the science stories from the NY Times, which we read aloud at lunchtime. (We learned some amazing things about possums at lunch yesterday!) We read for pleasure and we discuss what we're reading; the kids will often read particularly funny or interesting passages aloud. We play MadLibs or 20 Questions when we're sitting in restaurants, we listen to audiobooks in the car, we listen to lots of different kinds of music at home.

 

Making learning interesting and engaging and meaningful doesn't mean it has to be "fun & games" — nor does it preclude hard work. (Attic Greek is certainly not fun & games for DS, it's really hard, but it's interesting and meaningful to him, so he's willing to put in the effort.) Yes, some things in life are tedious and boring and just have to get done, but IMHO learning doesn't need to be one of them.

 

Jackie

Edited October 18, 2011 by Corraleno

[Susie in CA]

You know this is a very interesting thread.

 

I used to be a parent who didn't believe in the whole learning styles thing all that much. I used to think everyone needs to get through the boring things in life. I used to think school is the kids job. I used to think discipline is everything. I used to seperate school and free time. etc. etc.

 

My son didn't allow for any of this. I think only people with a child like this will be able to understand what it means to have to work with a child who will not do things your way. I was one of the parents who didn't get this in the past. In fact, I didn't even get homeschooling. I was never going to homeschool until we had ds. I could see instantly that he would not fit into the system, that he could not be forced to sit in school, that this would create huge problems in his life. And I am so glad I listened to my instinct.

 

 

We always followed the WTM plan. What this means to me and ds12 is that I look at the WTM plan and try to do things his way at the same time. This is not easy, but we are proof that it is possible. The biggest thing for us is that we keep those things which are truly 'boring' as short as possible. Right now those are spelling, grammar, math and german. We do those things but we don't dwell on them. All the rest of learning should be interesting and maybe even exciting, imho. Yes, if that means that I don't have him write reports for a while that's what we'll do. As Correlano pointed out the trick is flexilbility while also paying attention to what they like to do. Our learning spills into our whole life as well. We worked hard at this. I now wish that I never called school school. We are getting better at this. We are seperating less and less, and instead we are integrating learning in everything we do. You know what, it is working. Ds does apply geometry to his Lego League project or to building, he does pull out all of his knowledge of physics while working on a science fair project. In short, school in our house is messy and confusing. School is life. Life is school.

[Alte Veste Academy]

You know this is a very interesting thread.

 

I used to be a parent who didn't believe in the whole learning styles thing all that much. I used to think everyone needs to get through the boring things in life. I used to think school is the kids job. I used to think discipline is everything. I used to seperate school and free time. etc. etc.

 

My son didn't allow for any of this. I think only people with a child like this will be able to understand what it means to have to work with a child who will not do things your way. I was one of the parents who didn't get this in the past.

 

Interesting, indeed! I was just talking about this with a friend the other day. I joked that it's easy to say things aren't true, or don't exist, or couldn't be that way...until they happen to you.

 

I have hesitated to post in this thread because I think it's becoming an argument between those who have one kind of child/philosophy vs those who have another kind of child/philosophy. All that aside, the nature of the child whom you are teaching matters a great deal. The bottom line for me in dealing with what looks like stubborn behavior is that I do not think it is in anyone's best interests for learning to become a power struggle.

 

I do fully agree with Corraleno about learning being intrinsically rewarding. The example of her son learning Greek is a good one. There is some incredibly challenging and tedious work involved in learning Greek. The difference is that there is an internal motivation. Rewards in the absence of internal motivation have the potential to set children up for a lifetime of external motivation. Yes, some external motivation can be a great thing (pay for work, obviously) but when you've got a kid who is only working for a reward or to please someone else, you've got a kid who has lost the joy of learning that was a natural gift to them at birth. It's (yet another) big reason my kids aren't in school and don't participate in the library's prize-based summer reading program. The reward for reading a book is having read a book, for Pete's sake.

 

OP, I suggest you read Strong-Willed Child or Dreamer? My dd sounds similar to yours and that book opened my eyes in a major way. Reading up on VSL learners is a good idea too, as I have learned a great deal about my kids and have had many epiphanies about myself in the process!

 

Corraleno, would you consider starting a thread about VSL learners to discuss your research and specifics about how you approached teaching your son? I know many of us would be very interested and hopefully the thread would be something those of us with VSL kids and out of the box learners could read without dealing with any controversy regarding parenting philosophy.

[Alte Veste Academy]

That may be true in your house, but it's not true in mine.

 

 

I think you're misunderstanding what some of us are talking about. It has nothing to do with trying to make kids "think all learning is fun and not work," it's about cultivating a general attitude that learning is intrinsically enjoyable and rewarding, rather than being a "chore" that one must endure in order to get to the "fun stuff" — like TV and video games. In our family the "fun stuff" consists of things like zoo and museum trips, watching documentaries together, going geocaching or hiking (with binoculars, field guides, and mini sketchbooks), going to "star parties" with the local astronomy club, read-alouds with DH (who is British) doing lots of funny voices, playing chess or strategy board games together, collecting/identifying/studying interesting critters from the local river, etc.

 

There's no discrete line here between "school stuff" and "fun stuff" — we really do watch science documentaries and Teaching Company lectures for fun. We read magazines like Discover and Scientific American and Science Illustrated and my dad saves and sends us all the science stories from the NY Times, which we read aloud at lunchtime. (We learned some amazing things about possums at lunch yesterday!) We read for pleasure and we discuss what we're reading; the kids will often read particularly funny or interesting passages aloud. We play MadLibs or 20 Questions when we're sitting in restaurants, we listen to audiobooks in the car, we listen to lots of different kinds of music at home.

 

Making learning interesting and engaging and meaningful doesn't mean it has to be "fun & games" — nor does it preclude hard work. (Attic Greek is certainly not fun & games for DS, it's really hard, but it's interesting and meaningful to him, so he's willing to put in the effort.) Yes, some things in life are tedious and boring and just have to get done, but IMHO learning doesn't need to be one of them.

 

Jackie

 

:iagree:

 

Furthermore, I will add that I have successfully enticed my sometimes resistant children into enjoying things that they used to dread by drawing them in with strewing and truly excellent resources. I think sometimes we lay out a curriculum and tell the kids to do it because it is easy on us. With some kids, that backfires and, in the end, it would have been less work to lay out a feast of resources and more appropriate methods from the beginning. For me, an internally motivated child is inherently less work to teach than one I have to constantly encourage along as a donkey after a carrot.

[KrissiK]

My 8 year old ds was like that. His problem is that he's lazy. He admits he's lazy. Very little motivates him - except video games. He doesn't think he should have to do anything he doesn't want to do and he says this loud and clear. Interestingly enough, what has motivated him to get his work done is his little brother, who gets up early and gets his seat work done before before breakfast. Then he has all this time to play when DS1 is sitting around whining. I think it hit a nerve of pride, too. He doesn't want little brother to beat him. So, now, for some reason DS1 gets his work done, sometimes even before breakfast. I also make them earn video game/tv time. For example: If all Language Arts is done before 10:00am they get to have their video game time. Math has to be done by 11:00 to earn 1/2 hr. of tv. Chores have to be done by 1:00pm to earn their 2nd half hour of tv. It's been working well.

[Rivka]

I think you're misunderstanding what some of us are talking about. It has nothing to do with trying to make kids "think all learning is fun and not work," it's about cultivating a general attitude that learning is intrinsically enjoyable and rewarding, rather than being a "chore" that one must endure in order to get to the "fun stuff" — like TV and video games. In our family the "fun stuff" consists of things like zoo and museum trips, watching documentaries together, going geocaching or hiking (with binoculars, field guides, and mini sketchbooks), going to "star parties" with the local astronomy club, read-alouds with DH (who is British) doing lots of funny voices, playing chess or strategy board games together, collecting/identifying/studying interesting critters from the local river, etc.

 

There's no discrete line here between "school stuff" and "fun stuff" — we really do watch science documentaries and Teaching Company lectures for fun. We read magazines like Discover and Scientific American and Science Illustrated and my dad saves and sends us all the science stories from the NY Times, which we read aloud at lunchtime. (We learned some amazing things about possums at lunch yesterday!) We read for pleasure and we discuss what we're reading; the kids will often read particularly funny or interesting passages aloud. We play MadLibs or 20 Questions when we're sitting in restaurants, we listen to audiobooks in the car, we listen to lots of different kinds of music at home.

 

Making learning interesting and engaging and meaningful doesn't mean it has to be "fun & games" — nor does it preclude hard work. (Attic Greek is certainly not fun & games for DS, it's really hard, but it's interesting and meaningful to him, so he's willing to put in the effort.) Yes, some things in life are tedious and boring and just have to get done, but IMHO learning doesn't need to be one of them.

 

Corraleno, you enrich this board so much. I really appreciate this post and the other ones you've made in this thread.

[Rivka]

One of the best parenting techniques I know comes from "How to Talk so Your Kids Will Listen.." Sit down and state the problem: We need to figure out a way to make homeschool work for both of us. Then with a pencil and paper brainstorm every possible solution--write down EVERYTHING you both come up with. Then go down the list and cross off what won't work for either of you (you can't accept her drawing all day, she can't accept having to sit at the table to do math, English, etc.) Maybe you can come to a solution that works for both of you through this method. If not, keep working with what does create a spark in her, and let that be your guide. Good luck!

 

I think this is a great idea. You guys are engaged in a battle of wills, and a lot of the advice in this thread seems to boil down to a recommendation to intensify your punishments until her will is broken. If there's some way that you can rearrange the paradigm so that, instead of being you vs. her, this is you and her vs. the schoolwork problem, that would help immensely.

 

Definitely read "How to Talk..." if you haven't already. They go into a lot more detail about the problem solving strategy, and I think it would be really helpful.

[Alte Veste Academy]

Same here. I totally agree. Neither one of my kids is easy going (I'm not easy going either). I've had to treat them differently (and in doing so I think I'm treating them most fairly). But this is a huge reason I homeschool. So I can do that for them.

 

I don't really see the OPs probably as a disciplinary problem. I couldn't get my kids to sit at a table all day. They would get up and walk away. I'm amazed she has enough discipline to do that! No kid who will listen to their parent to that extent has a major problem with listening to the parent. Something else is going on.

 

 

:iagree:

[Alte Veste Academy]

I think this is a great idea. You guys are engaged in a battle of wills, and a lot of the advice in this thread seems to boil down to a recommendation to intensify your punishments until her will is broken. If there's some way that you can rearrange the paradigm so that, instead of being you vs. her, this is you and her vs. the schoolwork problem, that would help immensely.

 

:iagree:

 

My parents wasted a lot of time and energy trying to break my will. It was an absolute failure (thank goodness!) but it did succeed in making me resent and disrespect them.

[JenC3]

Corraleno, you enrich this board so much. I really appreciate this post and the other ones you've made in this thread.

 

:iagree:

 

This is how we do it. I love our homeschooling lifestyle.

[warneral]

I think only mom knows the motivation behind refusal to do schoolwork. I think some of the advice is in this thread helpful if she isn't sure yet.

 

If the child is trying to control the situation, I do not think that mom should adjust to make the child happy.

 

If the child is frustrated due to inability to do the work, other options should be discussed.

 

In our house, mom and dad have authority. Children should not usurp this. At the same time, I allow the children to have a say in what we do during the day and also to have fun. They do not get to do what they want if they are being argumentative or defiant. I've also been learning to drop curriculum that may not be best for the child's learning style - or is simply too much work for them.

 

I can see both sides of this thread and think it all boils down to what the real underlying issue may be.

 

There is a time for respect from the children to the parents and there is a time that the parents also need to show respect to their children and their ability to learn.

 

Respect and responsibility are big in my opinion. A child who stages a fit which ultimately bends the will of the parent will most likely become an irresponsible adult who thinks the world revolves around them. I've seen it all too often at the high school level with parents going to bat against teachers who hold a cheater accountable (for instance). Learning to respect and submit to authority is something that is helpful for a child. It is something we all should learn to do so that we function properly in society. Disrespecting your boss (for instance) is going to lead you into problems with your job.

 

Figure out the motivation of the defiance and then determine if the child is unable or unwilling. From there, you can best determine a plan - many of the plans in this thread would be helpful.

Edited October 18, 2011 by warneral

[StartingOver]

My older son when he was 8 tried this. I had to explain to him what the law was, that school was mandatory. That feeding, housing and clothing was also. When he didn't understand the explanation, I went on to show him. I stripped his room of everything but a couple sets of clothes, one pair of shoes, and his bedding. No TV, no games, no lamp, no toys, nothing but his school work. I fed him every meal, in his room. He was not allowed to come out. He sat for 3 whole days, then he did his school work. As he completed each days work, he "earned" back his possessions that were not required by law. Yeah, it worked, and he never pulled that again. Nor did his older siblings. ;-)

[momma aimee]

i have not read all the replies.

 

I had a foster daughter of 12 do this same thing. just sit. just sit. talk about passive agressive and make you want to pull your hear out.

 

I told her fine

 

"If you do not want to do your school work you are not going to school and just frustrate your teachers and vaest everyone time playing your games...."

 

I kept her home and she did MY job all day -- lots of scrubbing, lot of hard hard hard work. (ok I played it up a bit and made it boring). but since she was doing MY JOB her day went ALL DAY -- no tv break, no evening free time and so on --

 

she missed afternoon "afterschool play time"; she missed a couple of outtings since "mom had to stay home and cook and clean while the kids got to go play" --

 

then we sat down with her again and asked her if she was ready to "be the kid again and do the kids job of going to school"

 

sometime a reality check that ve all have jobs to do and all jobs have good and bad parts --

[Guest]

In short, school in our house is messy and confusing. School is life. Life is school.

 

I like this! Thank you!

[Guest]

Jackie (Corraleno) I wanted to thank you for your contribution to this thread. Your posts have been so informative and helpful!

Edited October 18, 2011 by Guest

[dodgeat2]

Hi, everyone. I found this post because I used the search term "balky", among other words. 😔 My daughter is seven and has always had plenty of imagination to keep herself occupied without school. She has also been incredibly difficult to parent. She is that kid who wouldn't potty train, out of this world tantrums/meltdowns, incredibly strong willed. I have done some research along our journey. She has many characteristics of Highly Sensitive Person and ADHD, both of which run in the family. She is gifted. She is most definitely "right brained" and a visual-spatial learner. My parenting style has been winging it, trying to keep as good of a relationship with her as possible, love her, not let her run the house/keep everyone else from walking on eggshells as much as possible. This style hasn't worked with school. I have tried so many curriculum for phonics and math. She pushes back so hard every day about doing any school work. What she does want to do, she does very well and with hyperfocus. I want to spend time researching what will work for her, but I also truly believe that she is going to have to meet standards and follow direction in life. How do I find a balance with this? I want to have a good relationship with her but I also need her to do a bare minimum of school work per day, and she will fight that even. I can't even tell sometimes if the work I am giving her is too hard or too easy, because she is so balky/will shut down. Can anyone relate? It is hard not to get bitter and angry when I have two other children that are school aged and will whine and complain (while they're doing whatever I tell them to). I know she would like public school and probably do fine because it would not be her against mom every day. I just feel discouraged. 

 

I want to find something hands on or interest led, but truly I think she is going to fight anything I try to impose on her. 

 

I have tried curriculum like miquon math. The trouble is that I am a small-picture, incremental learner, but not organized. Miquon was a nightmare for me. I need a plan that I can follow or tweak but is logical. And we end up doing nothing sometimes when I don't have a plan and she balks at everything I suggest. 

Edited May 27, 2022 by dodgeat2
Mispell

[Porridge]

 Bumping this for you, @dodgeat2

 I’m sorry it’s been so difficult. 

Here’s another new thread (but with an older child) that may yield some insight for you: 

 I have a 2e kid. I have no answers for you but lots of sympathy.

 Some potential resources:

Bright and Quirky

Reel 2e https://www.reel2e.org/