dragons are real and they were dinosaurs

[iona]

Is this a new way of thinking...or has this idea been around for a while? Is this only in YE circles?

[Greeny]

Like fire-breathing dragons? I've not heard this... What is YE?

[Mergath]

I heard it back when I was a young teen more than ten years ago. Did you know that the knights killed the dinosaurs off in the Middle Ages, too? :D

 

The ridiculousness of the idea is part of the reason I was asked to leave a youth group at a YEC church my mom made me go to for awhile. They actually made us sit around and discuss this very idea in small groups, and I... disagreed. With a good deal of laughter.

 

Plus, if it were true, we'd have a lot more stories about feathered dragons.

[Beth in SW WA]

Is this a new way of thinking...or has this idea been around for a while? Is this only in YE circles?

 

Ha! :lol:

:bigear:

This thread should be interesting.

[iona]

YE is young earth

[jhockley]

I've never heard of it either. Sounds like something a kid would come up b/c dragons are so cool they just *have* to be real. I mean I love reading fantasy and all, but that's exactly what it is- fantasy.

[Superfly]

I don't think it is anything new, but I recently saw a documentary about this topic. Supposedly there is a lot of archaeological evidence of cultural belief in fire-breathing dinos in the form of drawings/sculptures from cultures all over the world. Similar to the common thread of a flood story among unrelated cultures world-wide.

[WishboneDawn]

I've seen it on some YE sites, even AIG which has done a better job of dismissing some of the worst creationist misrepresentations out there (The Paluxy River Tracks for instance).

 

It's just bizarre. There's no sound logic behind it, only the waving of pictures of dragons that look somewhat dinosaurish. The equally plausible and more reasonable explanation that any similarity between dragons and dinosaurs simply comes from folks unearthing dinosaur fossils (whenever one might think those remains were fossilized) seemed not even to be considered.

 

Meanwhile no one is claiming there were once unicorns (Irish Rovers aside:D) and manticores.

[iona]

I don't think it is anything new, but I recently saw a documentary about this topic. Supposedly there is a lot of archaeological evidence of cultural belief in fire-breathing dinos in the form of drawings/sculptures from cultures all over the world. Similar to the common thread of a flood story among unrelated cultures world-wide.

 

 

Do you remember the name of the doco? Thanks

[joysworld]

I've heard it in YE circles. Supposedly, what people in ancient times thought were dragons, are what we have come to know as dinosaurs. I have never heard though, that YE people actually think that they breathed fire.

[twoxcell]

The word dinosaur did not exist until the 1800's. Pretty much every culture on earth has stories and/or drawings of dragons. Therefore it is a possibility that dragon and dinosaur are interchangeable.

[acurtis75]

I'm not sure how long the idea has been around but I'm sure the AIG website has links to documentaries and/or position papers on the subject. I know it is the topic of a short video at the Creation Museum and there are some resources available from them. I'm also sure that anyone who doesn't have a YE pre-supposition is going to feel the materials are ridiculous. Personally I found the information very interesting and no less ridiculous that some of the theories that are passed off as scientific fact these days that are really just attempts to explain how man got here without a creator.

[justamouse]

I heard that way back in my younger years sitting under a fire and brimstone YE Texan preacher.

[justamouse]

.

Edited September 29, 2011 by justamouse
snipping snark in the bud

[Mimm]

I heard people relate dragons to dinosaurs as simply an explanation for the origins of the myth of a fire breathing dragon. I am not aware of anyone that believes in real flying fire breathing dragons (except my ten year old.) ;)

[Spy Car]

I've seen it on some YE sites, even AIG which has done a better job of dismissing some of the worst creationist misrepresentations out there (The Paluxy River Tracks for instance).

 

I don't know about that. I've seen AIG materials that suggest paintings of St George and the Dragon are proof dinosaurs walked with man :lol:

 

Bill

[dragons in the flower bed]

I've seen some mythology books explain the universality of dragon stories by guessing what ancient peoples would have thought when they came across dinosaur fossils.

 

Also, there really were unicorns.

[Farrar]

I've seen some mythology books explain the universality of dragon stories by guessing what ancient peoples would have thought when they came across dinosaur fossils.

 

 

Yes, that I've heard before. The YE thing... oy.

 

This summer we happened to see a kind of cool traveling exhibit at Fernbank Natural History Museum in Atlanta about mythological creatures that had fun, giant sculptures of mythological beasts along with both misunderstood fossil evidence and cultural artifacts from around the world. It was kind of neat.

[momtotkbb]

Meanwhile no one is claiming there were once unicorns (Irish Rovers aside:D) and manticores.

 

 

Well, if you visit the AIG site:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/unicorns-in-bible

 

When my middle kids were little we did actually pull out the KJV and read the verses that mention Unicorns - seems like there are 10 maybe.

 

I had never heard that dragons and dinos were the same creature until we started hsing - but then again I hadn't really experienced anyone that believed in YE either.

[Lang Syne Boardie]

I don't know about that. I've seen AIG materials that suggest paintings of St George and the Dragon are proof dinosaurs walked with man :lol:

 

Bill

 

Please, please, please supply a link. You had to know somebody would ask. :lurk5:

[justamouse]

Well, if you visit the AIG site:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/unicorns-in-bible

 

 

I don't know if I should laugh, or cry.

 

That was...unbelievable.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I heard this recently. It was presented to me as kinda the same process that goes on in a lightning bug but on a different scale. I don't know.

 

FTR- I have not read any other replies, and I probably won't. I know better than to stick around threads like this ;)

[LittleIzumi]

I thought the new research was towards many dinosaurs being bird-like, rather than dragon-like. Feathered T-rex cousin, anyone?

[iona]

OP here...Thanks for the links and your various comments.

 

I had never heard of this idea until recently when it was discussed at coop and then I saw a children's book on the topic.

 

I was just curious how common it was. I don't know about the fire breathing just that the books implied that what people saw as dragons as well as other "monsters" that there have been sightings of were possible dinosaurs.

[ChandlerMom]

I agree: Contemporary thought is myths of dragons most likely originated when people came across dino fossils and didn't know what they were.

 

Dinos and dragons are fundamentally different, though. Dragons are serpents or reptiles. Dinos have hips structures akin to birds (hips under the body, opposed to reptiles that have legs coming out the side). Early dino reconstructions were bad about that (whole dragging belly on the ground and looking like giant iguanas).

 

Similar theories about flood stories as well -- tons of fish and sea life fossils on those middle east mountains (as well as mountains around the world). If you think the world always looks like it does now it makes sense to assume how else would bones and shells get on top of a mountain except via some huge flood?

 

Abram came from Ur, so similarities with Gilgamesh creation tales isn't surprising.

 

All of this of course is reconstruction. We don't know what early people thought when they discovered fossils or whether dinos and tales of dragons have any connection at all.

[dieuog]

I agree: Contemporary thought is myths of dragons most likely originated when people came across dino fossils and didn't know what they were.

I've always had a question about that explanation. Namely, whether it is easy to tell by looking at most dinosaur fossils that they WERE reptilian (as is obvious to us moderns), or whether that understanding had to wait for a 19th century comparative anatomy?

[IsabelC]

Meanwhile no one is claiming there were once unicorns (Irish Rovers aside:D) and manticores.

Slightly OT, I was taught that narwhal 'horns' washed up on beaches contributed to the unicorn myths. This theory sounds a bit dodgy to me, because why would somebody finding a horn on a beach conclude that it belonged to a horse as opposed to, say, a sea-serpent?

Then again, I was also taught (in elementary school) that the great extinction of the dinosaurs was caused by mammals eating all the dino eggs while the mama dinos were asleep. Perhaps that teacher had her own idiosyncratic views.

[WishboneDawn]

I've always had a question about that explanation. Namely, whether it is easy to tell by looking at most dinosaur fossils that they WERE reptilian (as is obvious to us moderns), or whether that understanding had to wait for a 19th century comparative anatomy?

 

They would have had to wait...Which doesn't help the YE idea because the pictures and stories of dragons, if they are based on dinosaurs, are then seemingly based on poor reconstructions and not on any actual eye witness events.

[Tigger]

http://humanexperience.stanford.edu/feature-dragons

[HistoryMom]

Thank you so much for this. It might explain something for me. My daughter was the target of some intense evangelizing last year (which is why I removed her from PS initially), and one of the kids insisted that Jesus was the coolest because he rode a dragon. I was sure he'd just invented it, but maybe he mixed up the message he was getting at church or home.

[jewel7123]

The word dinosaur did not exist until the 1800's. Pretty much every culture on earth has stories and/or drawings of dragons. Therefore it is a possibility that dragon and dinosaur are interchangeable.

 

:iagree: The word dinosaur was coined in 1841 or 1842 by a Sir Richard Owen. Dinosaur means "terrible, powerful, wondrous lizard." So what would a person prior to the year 1841 have called a giant, powerful, wondrous lizard? Hmm.........

 

I heard that way back in my younger years sitting under a fire and brimstone YE Texan preacher.

 

Really? You know my pastor? ;)

[WishboneDawn]

Thank you so much for this. It might explain something for me. My daughter was the target of some intense evangelizing last year (which is why I removed her from PS initially), and one of the kids insisted that Jesus was the coolest because he rode a dragon. I was sure he'd just invented it, but maybe he mixed up the message he was getting at church or home.

 

Do I have the blog post for you...Jesus, Dinosaur Rider

[HistoryMom]

Do I have the blog post for you...Jesus, Dinosaur Rider

 

Oh. Wow. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

[Michelle My Bell]

I heard people relate dragons to dinosaurs as simply an explanation for the origins of the myth of a fire breathing dragon. I am not aware of anyone that believes in real flying fire breathing dragons (except my ten year old.) ;)

 

Actually I didn't know anyone thought this could be real but it is something that has long made sense to me. I have often thought is it a very real possibility that dragons & dinosaurs are one in the same. I can't think of any reason why they couldn't be. I don't believe that they were magical creatures, just that depending on the time period of people observing them, they may have come across that way. I don't believe that dinosaurs and dragons are the same. I just believe there is a strong possibility that they are. Oh and as far as fire breathing... there are weirder things in nature...

[Superfly]

Do you remember the name of the doco? Thanks

 

Dragons or Dinosaurs: Creation or Evolution

 

It used to be available on netflix streaming. Now it is only available on DVD.

[swainsonshawk]

This is one of the many reasons why YE material scares me.

[zenjenn]

Ok, all that YE stuff aside, people in the middle ages did come across dinosaur fossils and generate dragon and other monster mythology from that evidence. Sometimes these items would be sold as relics or talismans with mystical properties, just as narwhal tusks were integrated into unicorn mythology.

[warneral]

Actually I didn't know anyone thought this could be real but it is something that has long made sense to me. I have often thought is it a very real possibility that dragons & dinosaurs are one in the same. I can't think of any reason why they couldn't be. I don't believe that they were magical creatures, just that depending on the time period of people observing them, they may have come across that way. I don't believe that dinosaurs and dragons are the same. I just believe there is a strong possibility that they are. Oh and as far as fire breathing... there are weirder things in nature...

 

Agreed. It also saddens me that people mock YE ideas so much here. I realize there are different schools of thought on whether the Bible is true and also literal. I do not mock the other ideas (but I do strongly disagree with them). I keep my opinions on those ideas to myself. I find that to be respectful.

[Paige]

I don't see why it has to be a YE thing. The simplest explanation is the most likely one to be true. IMO, the simplest explanation for cultures all over the world having dragon myths is that they were basing them on dinosaurs and dinosaur fossils. It requires much more imagination to think that cultures all over the world came up with myths completely out of the air (nothing) that very much resembled myths from people so far away who they had no contact with. And then, that those myths end up closely resembling fossils that people later find, discuss, and decide to name dinosaurs. I don't necessarily believe that St George fought a real dragon. I think it most likely was people finding bones and making reasonable interpretations of what the creatures those bones came from may have been like. This may be true no matter what age you believe the earth to be. But, you know, we don't know...maybe there were dragon like creatures... I believe ancient people were rational beings like us and that it is very arrogant to label their truths as myths. I withhold judgement because the absence of evidence does not disprove their stories and it is more fun to tell my kids that just because we haven't found any unicorns doesn't mean that they don't exist! :) People thought that gorillas were a myth too until very recently. To me, it has absolutely nothing to do with creationism or evolution. It has to do with enjoying a little magic and mystery and accepting that it is nearly impossible to disprove something based on lack of evidence.

[Free]

This is one of the many reasons why YE material scares me.

 

:laugh:

[twoxcell]

This is one of the many reasons why YE material scares me.

The idea that some ancient men may have seen a dinosaur scares you:confused:. I don't get that. How are dinosaurs any different than any other animal that is extinct now that ancient man was familiar with.

[In2why]

Agreed. It also saddens me that people mock YE ideas so much here. I realize there are different schools of thought on whether the Bible is true and also literal. I do not mock the other ideas (but I do strongly disagree with them). I keep my opinions on those ideas to myself. I find that to be respectful.

 

There is a difference between mockery and discussion. The person posting usually knows the difference. This is an education board and to avoid anything that could be seen as creation vs. evolution would be impossible. We discuss education, theories, popular thought, and so on all the time and to self censure based on the comfort levels of others isn't fair. But at the same time I understand how easy it is to slip from discussion into mockery. I ask myself when I respond whether my post furthers the discussion or is an actual question that might enlighten me somehow, (this post has) or if I am just being sarcastic. If it is the latter then I don't post, but if it the former than I think it is up to the reader to use their own measure on whether to participate of close the thread.

[iona]

Dragons or Dinosaurs: Creation or Evolution

 

It used to be available on netflix streaming. Now it is only available on DVD.

 

Thanks for letting me know

[Nomen Nescio]

I have often thought is it a very real possibility that dragons & dinosaurs are one in the same. I can't think of any reason why they couldn't be.

Maybe. According to Wikipedia, although dinosaur fossils discovered in China were believed to be dragon bones, ones found in the west were not necessarily assumed to be lizards ("generally believed to be the remains of giants and other creatures" it says). The fact that so often the terms for 'dragon' turn out to be related to terms for 'snake' suggests what is perhaps a less exciting origin of the concept -- people saw snakes, and imagined them big. This seems odd to us now, because we tend to think of dragons as four-legged lizards.

 

dragon - from a Latin word dracō that often just meant 'snake'

hydra - a water-snake, now usually depicted as a many-headed dragon of the four-legged kind we think of

wyvern - from the Latin vīpera, a viper

anguis - Latin for 'serpent' and used for the constellation also called Dracō.

wyrm - an archaic term for dragon that turns up in fantasy literature. The Latin is vermis meaning maggot, it's also the origin of the ordinary term worm. I recall reading in a dictionary of old English that the term once meant 'decaying matter', it appears to have become the word for the little squiggly things found in such material, subsequently the snakes that have a similar twisty, oblong form, and ultimately became a term for the mythical beast we call dragon.

[warneral]

There is a difference between mockery and discussion. The person posting usually knows the difference. This is an education board and to avoid anything that could be seen as creation vs. evolution would be impossible. We discuss education, theories, popular thought, and so on all the time and to self censure based on the comfort levels of others isn't fair. But at the same time I understand how easy it is to slip from discussion into mockery. I ask myself when I respond whether my post furthers the discussion or is an actual question that might enlighten me somehow, (this post has) or if I am just being sarcastic. If it is the latter then I don't post, but if it the former than I think it is up to the reader to use their own measure on whether to participate of close the thread.

 

It is a good point that mockery intended comes from the post-er. I appreciate your comments. I have read a few comments in this thread that I personally find to be offensive and belittling to the YE school of thought.

 

I felt that it was important for me to participate by stating my feelings on the matter as I'm sure I'm not the only person who feels that way.

 

Stating that "YE material scares me" isn't exactly a respectful statement ;)

 

I won't continue my commenting here. I stated my feelings as respectfully as I could to make people aware that not everyone shares these opinions about YE. I am not trying to debate but to actually enlighten.

Edited September 29, 2011 by warneral

[vonfirmath]

Is this a new way of thinking...or has this idea been around for a while? Is this only in YE circles?

 

The legends of dragons came from people seeing dinosaurs. Sure. Why not? Most stories have their basis in some sort of fact after all. Wouldn't you be frightened if there was a huge dinosaur near your fields?

[Paintedlady]

Agreed. It also saddens me that people mock YE ideas so much here. I realize there are different schools of thought on whether the Bible is true and also literal. I do not mock the other ideas (but I do strongly disagree with them). I keep my opinions on those ideas to myself. I find that to be respectful.

 

Exactly. :iagree:

[Bula Mama]

I just googled 'scientific facts that have been disproved' and found an interesting array of them that were once widely believed! I think as another poster pointed out, our ancestors were rational people, too, yet they believed the science of their time even though modern science would say that it was based on theory not fact. I think we could safely say that some of modern Science is based on theories that scientists are still trying to prove, too---yet many believe them! That's why while I appreciate modern science, I consider it all to be a bit fluid. After all I grew up being told dinosaurs were reptiles covered with scales, and now they're birdlike with feathers? I still haven't gotten over Pluto not being a planet anymore!

 

A reptile that could generate fire isn't too far of a stretch of the imagination really.......! Whatever, some amazing creatures did roam the earth at some point. The ones that are left are pretty amazing, too.

 

P.S. I tend towards YE and am not ashamed! :001_smile:

Edited September 29, 2011 by Bula Mama

[Lizzie in Ma]

Ha! :lol:

:bigear:

This thread should be interesting.

 

lol, that's what I thought too. ;)

[WishboneDawn]

The idea that some ancient men may have seen a dinosaur scares you:confused:. I don't get that. How are dinosaurs any different than any other animal that is extinct now that ancient man was familiar with.

 

I don't think that's what is meant by the scary thing. I think it's how little rigor there is with some materials so that what's at best, an untested hypothesis gets floated as something approaching theory or even just reasonable.

 

It muddies the YE waters for all, those on the inside of that view looking for good quality arguments to defend their beliefs and those on the outside wondering what a YE view entails.

 

Appealing to legends for evidence that dinosaurs co-existed with humans is not rigorous science. If it's in a science book it should just be an introductory paragraph into a larger discussion of how the evidence we have now, in terms of fossils and such, support that idea. That would be much less scary.

 

Honestly, I have more respect for creationists then I bet some in this thread would guess. They have a passionate belief they work to defend. Most people I know just don't give a crap.