Hothousing...continued....

[Beth in SW WA]

I'm sorry for hijacking the 'giftedness' thread. I would love to continue the 'hothousing' conversation here.

 

I asked CW for an example of hothousing....

 

Where I am, people either seem to place too much or too little emphasis on it. There's no happy medium. On the one side, you've got the "tiger moms" hothousing in an attempt to create the perfect little "trophy child".

 

CW, I'm curious. Based on this comment above (and in other threads) you seem to be noticeably negative regarding 'hothousing' and I would love to know why. Forgive me if I missed your opinion on this elsewhere. I value your opinions here. I would love to know how accelerating/hothousing is different from old-fashioned teaching the child at his level -- allowing the child to blossom and grow at his/her unique pace -- regardless of age/grade.

 

Are you implying that accelerating one's dc is a result of a parent's desire for a trophy? For external approval? Could it be perhaps that enthusiastic, committed parents, Tiger Moms, simply want to give their dc the education of their own dreams? Is that not our ultimate collective goal here at TWTM forum?

 

We strategically planned the education of our older dc. We knew what we wanted and how to get there, regardless of time or cost. Is that a 'negative' in some circles?

 

:bigear:

 

Here's a real-life example from a few weeks ago. DD is a word nerd and a "natural speller". She has expressed an interest in doing spelling bees (her idea, not mine). A friend at our local support group on a Thursday afternoon asked if DD was planning to enter the regional Macy's/RIF spelling bee that Saturday afternoon. DD wanted to go for it, and spent maybe 2 hours on Friday and 1 more hour on Saturday morning reviewing words in previous Spelling Power lists that had given her difficulty in the past.

 

The Macy's bee was held in the heart of Silicon Valley. I wasn't totally sure what traffic would be like or parking, so I decided to arrive early just to be on the safe side. We stroll in at 1:15 for a 2 P.M. start. I wasn't even sure that there would be anyone there yet to take her registration, but I was flat-out wrong. There were already 47 kids registered for the bee ahead of DD! The final total was 74, which means that close to 2/3 of the kids had arrived more than 45 minutes early. DD and I spent the downtime before the bee doing window shopping, but most of the other moms spent it drilling their kids.

 

The worst of the "tiger moms" in attendance had an older child participating in the bee and a younger child who was not yet old enough (he looked maybe 6 or 7). The mom forced the poor kid to spell every single word given to every single contestant in the entire bee. If the boy got it wrong or simply was unable to give his mom the spelling of the word before the contestant spelled it, the mom was harshly critical to the point where I felt it sometimes bordered on verbal abuse. :thumbdown: This went on for HOURS.

 

Yes, the woman's older child did place higher in the spelling bee than my DD- I don't know the final outcome but she made it through the round where DD got eliminated so she was at least in the top 6. For the girl's sake, I actually hope she did win, because I would hate to think of the awful criticism the mom would give to her if she lost.

 

While this is probably the most egregious example of "hothousing" that I've witnessed, I wish that I could say I was shocked by it. But sadly, I wasn't. :(

 

 

I think one key is to make sure the kids have multpile daily opportunities for unstructured play. Another key is that they get a healthy amount of exercise; and then there's interaction with other kids. Add in time to acquire self-help skills, time to deal appropriately with discipline problems, and plenty of sleep. Oh, and not beating the child into particpation.

 

Amen! :iagree: completely. Balance is critical. :)

 

I wouldn't even call this hothousing. This women is preparing her child for a competitive event, while you are thinking it is a friendly get together, not even rec league.

 

:iagree:

 

Thank you, CW, for the example of the spelling bee. Obviously parents have unique expectations on their children -- and other parents looking in may be tempted to misinterpret or judge based on their own academic paradigm and parental expectations.

 

Look at this sub-forum, for example. We all represent a unique educational journey.

 

I have participated in a wide array of activities w/ my dc over the last 16 years (hence, the dark circles). I'm currently the varsity soccer mom. I've been the chess mom, spelling bee prep mom, lacrosse mom, theater mom, youth group staff, PTA president, etc. I have witnessed parenting of all shapes and sizes in the context of competitive student activities. Some parents appear intense. Some appear relaxed. The common thread is loving parents who want what is best for their kids. I'm not one to judge motivation.

 

I don't want anyone judging my motivation. Some may agree w/ it. Some may not. Regardless, my mantra remains. If you're going to play, play to win.

 

I've been the object of criticism by parents who don't understand the unique skills and desires of children. Bringing my olders home from a wonderful private school was a complete shock to my parent-friends and teacher-friends at the school. They could not imagine how I would leave this 'successful' school to home school. They didn't know my kids. They didn't know the academic expectations we had formed over the years. How could they understand something as unique as another family's educational preference? I appeared 'extreme' -- probably similar to the way the spelling bee mom appeared to CW. From the outside, certain actions may appear odd. I had close friends (and family) claim I was ruining my 'perfect' family by adopting 2 girls from China. Thankfully I have strong convictions (as does dh) about what we want for our family and how we're going to get there.

 

I am still :confused: as to the negative connotation of hothousing. Would others like to chime in?

 

Forgive me if I'm beating a dead horse. But I want to feel free to share my experiences and desires here w/o being accused of hothousing my kids. I want to read about what others are doing in art, music, sports, theater, academics, spelling bee, chess, gymnastics, violin, math olympiad, science olympiad, etc.

 

:bigear:

Edited September 23, 2011 by Beth in SW WA
typo

[boscopup]

The negative connotation of hothousing would be this example:

 

A parent takes their newly 3 year old and starts drilling phonics and sight words and pushing reading, not because the 3 year old is showing an interest in reading, but because the PARENT wants the 3 year old to read early. The 3 year old isn't actually ready to read, but the parent drills and drills and drills every day, trying to get the child reading before they are developmentally ready. This is NOT the same as a gifted 3 year old who teaches themselves to read. It's a parent trying to make their child "smarter" by pushing academics earlier than the child is ready.

 

That's what I think of when CW talks about hothousing, and I think it's what she's referring to. It's completely different from a parent giving their gifted child accelerated material. That's a parent meeting the child where they are, and it's a good thing. But that's a case where the CHILD is accelerated, not the parent trying to accelerate a child that isn't ready.

[EKS]

The negative connotation of hothousing would be this example:

 

A parent takes their newly 3 year old and starts drilling phonics and sight words and pushing reading, not because the 3 year old is showing an interest in reading, but because the PARENT wants the 3 year old to read early. The 3 year old isn't actually ready to read, but the parent drills and drills and drills every day, trying to get the child reading before they are developmentally ready. This is NOT the same as a gifted 3 year old who teaches themselves to read. It's a parent trying to make their child "smarter" by pushing academics earlier than the child is ready.

 

That's what I think of when CW talks about hothousing, and I think it's what she's referring to. It's completely different from a parent giving their gifted child accelerated material. That's a parent meeting the child where they are, and it's a good thing. But that's a case where the CHILD is accelerated, not the parent trying to accelerate a child that isn't ready.

 

I started teaching my younger son to read when he was two. He was at that stage where he could learn the word for anything after hearing it one time, so I thought I'd try the same thing with letter sounds. I actually started with shapes (it was incredibly cute to hear him say "trapezoid" and somewhat disconcerting when he started pointing out trapezoids and parallelograms when we were out in the world). Anyway, he learned the letter sounds as easily as he did everything else and was able to sound out CVC words before his third birthday.

 

I do believe he would have taught himself to read at an early age. Since I wanted him to learn to read phoenetically, I deliberately began reading instruction early. We spent just a few minutes each day at it and he would ask to do "the letters" as he called it.

 

I don't think I would have been successful had he not been ready or it would have taken an inordinate of time and energy to achieve success. As it was, it was remarkably easy. And that was my gauge when he was little. If he didn't want to do whatever it was, or it seemed to be really difficult or take a lot of repetition, I would simply back off and try again later.

 

So, is what I did hothousing?

[Beth in SW WA]

The negative connotation of hothousing would be this example:

 

A parent takes their newly 3 year old and starts drilling phonics and sight words and pushing reading, not because the 3 year old is showing an interest in reading, but because the PARENT wants the 3 year old to read early. The 3 year old isn't actually ready to read, but the parent drills and drills and drills every day, trying to get the child reading before they are developmentally ready. This is NOT the same as a gifted 3 year old who teaches themselves to read. It's a parent trying to make their child "smarter" by pushing academics earlier than the child is ready.

 

That's what I think of when CW talks about hothousing, and I think it's what she's referring to. It's completely different from a parent giving their gifted child accelerated material. That's a parent meeting the child where they are, and it's a good thing. But that's a case where the CHILD is accelerated, not the parent trying to accelerate a child that isn't ready.

 

I have no problem w/ a mom working with her 3-year-old on phonics or math games, etc. I played The Phonics Game at age 3 with all my kids. They loved it. Some were ready to read. Some weren't. I don't judge those who choose to take that route. A loving parent spending one-on-one face time with a dc -- providing an enriching experience -- is a beautiful thing, imho. If the kid is listening and cooperative, is well-fed, rested and balanced in every other aspect of his life, I don't see the problem. If the kid is screaming or crying, that is another issue.

 

I also don't have a problem w/ parents who take their kids to Jr. Kumon and the like. Again, the parents can choose if they feel the child would benefit by that activity. In my neck of the woods, Kumon is big. Beaverton, OR is a hub of international student wonders. Tiger Moms galore. I think it's blessing and privilege to send your youngster for academic enrichment -- if you can afford it and the kid has the time, energy, etc.

 

SWB shared this article on FB recently. No one assumes that these activities/enrichments guarantee future success. But I don't criticize a parent for trying.

[kiana]

Honestly -- hothousing isn't teaching your kid what they're ready to learn. It's trying to teach them *before* they're ready and spending an inordinate amount of time on it.

 

Someone who's hothousing wouldn't be backing off when the kid was frustrated and not learning, but jumping curriculum, hiring a tutor or lengthening the time.

 

JMO.

[boscopup]

I started teaching my younger son to read when he was two. He was at that stage where he could learn the word for anything after hearing it one time, so I thought I'd try the same thing with letter sounds. I actually started with shapes (it was incredibly cute to hear him say "trapezoid" and somewhat disconcerting when he started pointing out trapezoids and parallelograms when we were out in the world). Anyway, he learned the letter sounds as easily as he did everything else and was able to sound out CVC words before his third birthday.

 

I do believe he would have taught himself to read at an early age. Since I wanted him to learn to read phoenetically, I deliberately began reading instruction early. We spent just a few minutes each day at it and he would ask to do "the letters" as he called it.

 

I don't think I would have been successful had he not been ready or it would have taken an inordinate of time and energy to achieve success. As it was, it was remarkably easy. And that was my gauge when he was little. If he didn't want to do whatever it was, or it seemed to be really difficult or take a lot of repetition, I would simply back off and try again later.

 

So, is what I did hothousing?

 

I don't think so. He was clearly ready, and you were just taking his cues. I did the same thing when middle son was 3 for the same reason - I wanted him to learn to read phonetically. His big brother had taught himself to read, and I wanted to get the phonics in there this time. I followed his lead and let it be up to him though. It wasn't "Ok, we're going to do phonics everyday, whether you like it or not!" :lol:

 

Also, you were willing to back off. I think a parent that is hothousing wouldn't be willing to do so, even if the kid isn't ready.

 

My youngest is starting to recognize letters and write a few letters. He's not quite 2.5. I do take opportunities to say letters and their sounds when he is interested, but I'm not doing formal phonics with him right now. He is acting just like his big brother did, and I know he'll probably pick up reading before Kindergarten age. I'm not pulling out the sight word flash cards and the Bob books to get him going right away though. I have no need to have my 2.5 year old reading, and really would prefer that he wait until closer to 4, after seeing the issues some here have had with their 2-3 year olds reading. ;)

 

And I *do* like my kids to read early. I think it makes it easier to be relaxed in the early elementary years. Last year and this year, I've been able to let my son go deeper in his history and science studies via books from the library because he can read them himself. And I didn't have to say "Oh, but we need to practice reading!" He's already reading well. But he isn't that way because of anything I did. Actually, when I tried to teach him (because he was oh so close to blending), he resisted big time. When I backed off and let him be, he suddenly started reading at a 1.5 grade level (the first book he ever read), completely skipping the Bob book stage, which is oh so painful (there right now with DS2).

 

I don't have any problem with teaching a kid who is ready to learn. I do have a problem with forcing formal lessons on a kid that clearly isn't ready for them, and then complaining when they can't get past a certain point. I don't think that happens often on this board, though I've seen a couple posts in the past (in the K-8 board) where people were freaking out that their 3 year old got stuck in the phonics program. If you're freaking out, it's time to step back and reevaluate things. Why is it so important to be doing this now? Is the kid developmentally ready?

 

I don't think I've seen a clear example of hothousing on this board or even in real life (it's not that common in my area). I do think it can be a fine line, and it can be hard to tell from the outside which side of the line the parent is on.

[SKL]

I'm more and more tempted to believe that "hothousing" is anything the neighbors/inlaws are doing that you are afraid to try with your kids.

 

 

 

Let me put it in a non-academic, non-"gifted" context. I required my kids to work on mastering each of the following (for example) before most parents would dare try to introduce them:

1. Exercising self-control to not touch/open certain things.
   
2. Eliminating on the potty / toilet.
   
3. Fully dressing themselves (except for back fasteners).
   
4. Tying their shoes.
   
5. Riding bikes.
   

So I have gotten many glares and "whatever!" looks as people have observed me (1) giving my kids relatively free range plus consequences; (2) taking them to the toilet while out shopping at age 1; (3) telling them to "try again" rather than fixing their backwards clothes myself; (4) telling them to stop what they are doing to tie their shoes. (Nobody seems offended by the bike riding so far.)

 

If my list involved memorizing the written alphabet, math facts, spellings, etc., I would be a candidate for "hothousing," but when it comes to self-help / mobility skills, I am simply a mean, selfish mom.

 

But the fact is, my kids are quite happy and healthy, so what do I care what others think?

 

How will we know if our kid would be able to or want to learn reading if we are afraid to expose them to it? I started showing my kids the alphabet and the letter sounds before they could walk. One of them really caught on, the other did not. With the one who caught on, I did not need to "force" anything - she was receptive and sponged it up faster than I even realized. With the other, I kept exposing her, assuming she was a later bloomer. But after a couple of years of her not picking up, I had her checked for vision issues and eventually got her some vision therapy. Now at almost 5, she is just starting to "get" the basics of decoding, and that is age appropriate. If I hadn't exposed her before, I would not have realized she needed therapy/glasses and she would probably be behind instead of just on track. And as much as people say "oh, so let her be herself," we know there would be negative feedback which would affect her lifelong attitude toward herself and toward learning. So how have I hurt either of my kids?

 

My kids participate in lots of activities. Why? Because I am a single mom who works full-time, so I can't spend all day with them, but I can afford to have them learn useful stuff from people who are both nicer and more knowledgeable than I am in the pertinent subject. They get the benefit of multiple teaching styles as well as physical, intellectual, and social growth. All of their "specials" are done at their daycare locations during my working hours, so I would not be spending that time with them anyway. They are age-appropriate, as they are specially designed for my kids' age group. I really don't care if people think my kids would be better off without the "extras." They are free to make different choices with their own kids. They are free to criticize my choices to my face when my kids' behavior/health proves that there's a problem.

Edited September 23, 2011 by SKL

[MinivanMom]

I started teaching my younger son to read when he was two. . . .

 

So, is what I did hothousing?

 

No. :001_smile:

 

Honestly -- hothousing isn't teaching your kid what they're ready to learn. It's trying to teach them *before* they're ready and spending an inordinate amount of time on it.

 

Someone who's hothousing wouldn't be backing off when the kid was frustrated and not learning, but jumping curriculum, hiring a tutor or lengthening the time.

 

JMO.

 

:iagree:

 

I'm not CW, but I grew up in that area and now live in an equally intense urban area on the East coast. I know exactly what she's talking about when she describes hothousing and it doesn't bear any resemblence to what you are describing. Hothousing is not just intensity on the part of the parent or acceleration on the part of the child. In fact, I know many parents that are very intense and whose kids seem to be very accelerated and involved in a large number of academic activities. I wouldn't say they were hothoused, though, because the parents are obviously meeting the children's academic needs. Hothousing is more than that. This is how I would define hothousing:

 

Hothousing is drilling a toddler with hours of phonics everyday, even though they are clearly not ready or interested in instruction.

Hothousing is forcing your child to work above grade level even though they are clearly not ready and haven't mastered the underlying skills.

Hothousing is requiring such a burdensome amount of work that a child has no downtime for friends, reading, or creative play.

Hothousing is academic goals based on the parents' desire for personal glory rather than the child's actual academic needs.

Hothousing is requiring your child to spend hours each day practicing an instrument they despise.

Hothousing is a child who regularly cries in frustration and displays signs of extreme psychological distress.

Hothousing is parents who regularly display anger and verbal abuse towards the child when they fail to meet unreasonable expectations.

 

I know that parents of gifted/accelerated children are sometimes unfairly accused of hothousing by the parents of average children. It's natural to feel defensive about the term . . . but . . . there really are parents out there who do this. These parents seem to be more prevalent in highly-educated, urban pockets, but they do exist. (And I don't think you're one of them!) :001_smile:

[boscopup]

Let me put it in a non-academic, non-"gifted" context. I required my kids to work on mastering each of the following (for example) before most parents would dare try to introduce them:

 

1. Exercising self-control to not touch/open certain things.

2. Eliminating on the potty / toilet.

3. Fully dressing themselves (except for back fasteners).

4. Tying their shoes.

5. Riding bikes.

 

 

If they're developmentally ready for those things, great! I teach my babies at a VERY young age not to touch things. Once they're crawling, I do believe they are developmentally capable of learning not to touch things. I think potty training can be done from birth (EC). It's pretty normal for a child to be able to dress themselves by about 4 years old, I think? Tying shoes is typical around age 4 or 5, though I could see a child with better fine motor skills doing it earlier. Can you teach my 7 year old? We're trying over here with not much luck. :tongue_smilie: It's not that I purposely delayed it, but that I've tried to teach it and he just physically couldn't do it (fine motor issues) a couple years ago, and now that he could physically do it... something just isn't clicking. I dunno. He can do the first knot now, but the loops escape him, and again, fine motor control is difficult for him. Riding bikes... They learn to ride when they are ready. I don't know what age is normal for that.

 

I'd say you were hothousing if you expected your 6 month old to tie their own shoes or ride a bike. ;) I doubt you did that. You saw when they were capable of doing those things, and you required them to do what they were capable of doing, right?

[SKL]

I'd say you were hothousing if you expected your 6 month old to tie their own shoes or ride a bike. ;) I doubt you did that. You saw when they were capable of doing those things, and you required them to do what they were capable of doing, right?

 

Yes, I saw when the kids were ready to start figuring it out, and had them work on it. Shoe tying, for example - I never let them have velcro shoes after their 3rd birthdays. I went over the tying process and had them take over the steps gradually. DD2 learned pretty quickly at age 3. I took a break with DD1 as she was clearly having vision issues and I saw no reason to frustrate her. Around her 4th birthday we started again, and she caught on. The knowing what they could and couldn't touch as well as pottying started shortly after I took custody, before/at age 1. They were dressing themselves by age 2. Bikes - I took the training wheels off when they were 3 but didn't make a serious push until they were 4.

 

So in short, I present, make them try, gauge their readiness, and decide how to proceed from there. These are things they have to do eventually, and I believe that the challenge is good for their minds.

 

I assume that people actually seeing how we do things around here would not accuse me of "hothousing" (well, maybe the inlaws would), but my concern is that we don't really know what anyone's situation is, do we? I mean, my kids just started piano lessons, and they are still learning to act like they take it seriously. If your only window into my life was the moment where I was ordering my 4yo to focus on her practice and save the silliness for later, you might think I was pushing my kid beyond what she was ready for. But if you'd seen my kid 10 minutes later beg to go back to the piano in order to fulfill her teacher's instruction to practice "all" of the assignment, you might think differently. Do we really know enough to say who is and isn't guilty of "hothousing"?

[poetic license]

I personally detest the term "hothousing" for the following reasons--

 

* Everyone uses it in their own ways--it means totally different things to different people.

 

* It's often times used in a pejorative way against people who work with their child academically by those who think that a truly gifted child would just learn on their own without any assistance. In other words, if your child taught herself to read, she gets gifted cred. If you taught your child <5 to read, you're just "hothousing."

 

If there is a child who shows proficiency in sports and is enrolled in leagues and classes, that's not hothousing. But if a child is interested in academics, people cry out "hothousing." I just get the feeling it's used more for namecalling than some useful purpose.

 

That said, like a PP pointed out, there are urban pockets where the type of drill and kill in the pre-k groups goes to the extreme, e.g. NYC, LA, etc. But beyond this extreme set of parents there are so many shades of grey that the term becomes irrelevant at a certain point.

 

Amy Chua for example is often vilified, but if you actually go read her book (not just the excerpts at WSJ), one comes away with a much more nuanced picture.

 

I remember reading an article in response to the whole Amy Chua business that described the experience of an American expat in China. He was proud of his Tiger Mom wife who drilled math with their 5 or 6 year old. He pointed out that her methods were more gentle, but that the drill was simply expected from that age and considered developmentally appropriate. So "hothousing" is culturally relative as well.

[Embassy]

I think many people have considered me a hothouser. I think it is because they are viewing my life through their perspective. I school 6 or so hours a day and my kids are learning several languages. That alone puts many antennas up. My kids like school. They like longer days. I think some must picture my kids at a desk all day hating school because that is what school at day would look like to them. Truth is we spend only a portion of our day at a desk. Much more time is spent on the couch reading and discussing. Ironically, I tend to delay things like formal education before Kindergarten or potty training even when the child requests it. For instance, my daughter requested to potty train 6 months before we actually started. When she wants to do math I hand her my ds's old math book and just let her play in it.

[poetic license]

 

I assume that people actually seeing how we do things around here would not accuse me of "hothousing" (well, maybe the inlaws would), but my concern is that we don't really know what anyone's situation is, do we? I mean, my kids just started piano lessons, and they are still learning to act like they take it seriously. If your only window into my life was the moment where I was ordering my 4yo to focus on her practice and save the silliness for later, you might think I was pushing my kid beyond what she was ready for. But if you'd seen my kid 10 minutes later beg to go back to the piano in order to fulfill her teacher's instruction to practice "all" of the assignment, you might think differently. Do we really know enough to say who is and isn't guilty of "hothousing"?

 

 

(emphasis added) So true, and this is a great example you gave.

[jenbrdsly]

My freshman roommate at Stanford was the only child of a Tiger Mom. One parent was Taiwanese and the other was Chinese, and they expected total obedience. We were both in SLE together. Joan didn't know how to do her own laundry, manage her phone bill, or think for herself for ten minutes without her mom or dad telling her what to do. But... you should have heard Joan play piano! All of that hothousing paid off on the keyboard.

 

Joan's mother would call her at 2am to make sure she was still studying. My poor roommate ended up having a nervous breakdown in the middle of winter quarter. She shaved her head and ended up being locked up in the mental health ward for a few days. Her parents came to take her home and she ran away from them at the airport. Somehow she convinced a taxi cab to take her the 40 minute ride back to our dorm, even though she didn't have any money. When she arrived back at our dorm the authorities took her back to the psych ward. They ended up having to tranquilize her to get her back on the airplane to Florida.

 

[beaners]

I

 

* It's often times used in a pejorative way against people who work with their child academically by those who think that a truly gifted child would just learn on their own without any assistance. In other words, if your child taught herself to read, she gets gifted cred. If you taught your child <5 to read, you're just "hothousing."

 

If there is a child who shows proficiency in sports and is enrolled in leagues and classes, that's not hothousing. But if a child is interested in academics, people cry out "hothousing." I just get the feeling it's used more for namecalling than some useful purpose.

 

Yes. Yes. Completely the same impression I get on both of these points.

[Belacqua]

My freshman roommate at Stanford was the only child of a Tiger Mom. One parent was Taiwanese and the other was Chinese, and they expected total obedience. We were both in SLE together. Joan didn't know how to do her own laundry, manage her phone bill, or think for herself for ten minutes without her mom or dad telling her what to do. But... you should have heard Joan play piano! All of that hothousing paid off on the keyboard.

 

Joan's mother would call her at 2am to make sure she was still studying. My poor roommate ended up having a nervous breakdown in the middle of winter quarter. She shaved her head and ended up being locked up in the mental health ward for a few days. Her parents came to take her home and she ran away from them at the airport. Somehow she convinced a taxi cab to take her the 40 minute ride back to our dorm, even though she didn't have any money. When she arrived back at our dorm the authorities took her back to the psych ward. They ended up having to tranquilize her to get her back on the airplane to Florida.

 

 

That poor thing! Do you know whatever happened to her?

[jenbrdsly]

She got her Ph.D! Her mom wanted her to become a doctor or a Computer Science major, but she is now a psychology professor.

My husband had a roommate whose mother would call at 6am Saturday morning to wake him up and make sure he was studying. She could also be called a Tiger Mom. He too ended up bucking his parents' wishes to become a doctor and became an engineer instead.

I think the real deciding question on whether or not a parenting style is "hothousing" or not are these two questions: Is your primary goal to make sure that your child is happy or #1 at something? Is third place (but happy), okay with you?

Edited September 23, 2011 by jenbrdsly

[SKL]

I think the real deciding question on whether or not a parenting style is "hothousing" or not are these two questions: Is your primary goal to make sure that your child is happy or #1 at something? Is third place (but happy), okay with you?

 

I've talked to a lot of "tiger" type parents who firmly believe that even if their child is not happy now, they will someday be happy they were pushed. It's cultural in many cases. They have never known anyone who "could" get their kid ahead yet decided to chill out about it, with societally acceptable results.

[TCB]

Yes, I saw when the kids were ready to start figuring it out, and had them work on it. Shoe tying, for example - I never let them have velcro shoes after their 3rd birthdays. I went over the tying process and had them take over the steps gradually. DD2 learned pretty quickly at age 3. I took a break with DD1 as she was clearly having vision issues and I saw no reason to frustrate her. Around her 4th birthday we started again, and she caught on. The knowing what they could and couldn't touch as well as pottying started shortly after I took custody, before/at age 1. They were dressing themselves by age 2. Bikes - I took the training wheels off when they were 3 but didn't make a serious push until they were 4.

 

So in short, I present, make them try, gauge their readiness, and decide how to proceed from there. These are things they have to do eventually, and I believe that the challenge is good for their minds.

 

(ETA - sorry I'm not very good at quoting. above is a quote, below is my ? )

 

 

I kind of find this difficult to understand. With almost anything I have found that you can spend a lot of time and energy teaching just about anything to any age child, or you can spend a few minutes when they are ready. I can see that some challenge is good for a child. Other than a challenge, is there any other benefit to learning these skills really early? Also did the kids still enjoy riding their bikes without training wheels? Ours came off when the kids asked for them to be off. Some things in life you have to push your kids to do but for me those don't include bike riding without training wheels - is there a long term benefit to doing this early?

Edited September 23, 2011 by tcb

[8filltheheart]

I have stayed out of this conversation b/c so much of it is about personal parenting decisions. But, jenbrdsly, your last post is the one that made me want to share what I have been thinking during the entire discussion. These little people are not simply people that we can dictate how to form and grow and that is the end of it. They are individuals w/their own thoughts, and one day they will become adults. Parenting practices and decisions we make when our children are younger and how they look back and view them will impact our relationship w/them when they are older. That is just simple reality. (and may all of us have adult children that view our decisions positively.) We should never lose sight of where we end and our children begin b/c the 2 are absolutely distinct. (and I know that as obvious as that sounds, there are parents that don't recognize that boundary.)

 

I am glad we are all able to make the decisions to raise our children according to our own dictates.

[hil]

I found this forum after running in horror from my local 'unschoolers' forum. My second-grader is home-schooled, and I thought 'unschooling' was just a quirky way of describing an unorthodox, less rigid, educational philosophy. I guess I was wrong.

 

Here are two quotes, actually typical of the board.

 

The query:

> But what about things like, my daughter who will be 13 who absolutely hates reading and doesn't know all her times tables?! ***************

 

Response #1:

 

Plenty of adults dislike reading and don't know their times tables. Most adults, especially women, have so much math phobia they avoid doing any kind of computation. If your daughter is like that then she is no worse off than most high school graduates! >> How do I encourage her or get her to be a better reader?? You don't. First of all, reading requires a curious kind of "readiness" which is entirely biological and some people aren't ready to read until puberty. So a 13yo who isn't reading yet may not be ready yet. There's another problem, though, which is that you've been saturated with the propaganda that reading Should Be some kind of pleasant activity when its just a useful skill, like driving a car. I drive a car almost every day but I don't enjoy it and I'm not a great driver. I avoid driving when I can. It's okay to have that kind of relationship with reading!

 

Response #2:

'Why does she need to know the time table at 13? I don't think that I do at 45 and I have a Law Degree and I speak 4 languages. I just never memorized it in school. I know probably 95 to 98% but there are a few that I need to think about. It has made NO difference in my life.'

 

 

The woman drilling her unhappy child at the spelling bee is misguided about the long-term success of her agenda. Continuing high achievement is utterly dependent on emotional health.

But in a world of endless, cardboard mediocrity in the public schools, and 'unschoolers', deluded about the realities their children will face in a few short years, I'm starting to appreciate other parents who try to challenge their kids, and do the truly hard work of consistently educating them. Every time we're learning anything, for me, there's a silent message to my son, "I love you, I'm investing in you."

 

Hilary and 'Bruno', 7, enjoying the Khan Academy, and the baby, 'Miloshka', 1

 

Edited September 23, 2011 by hil

[SKL]

I kind of find this difficult to understand. With almost anything I have found that you can spend a lot of time and energy teaching just about anything to any age child, or you can spend a few minutes when they are ready. I can see that some challenge is good for a child. Other than a challenge, is there any other benefit to learning these skills really early? Also did the kids still enjoy riding their bikes without training wheels? Ours came off when the kids asked for them to be off. Some things in life you have to push your kids to do but for me those don't include bike riding without training wheels - is there a long term benefit to doing this early?

 

I think challenge is a good enough reason, personally. The exercise of learning a multi-step process that really takes mental effort. The confidence that comes from attacking something that looks really hard and finding that one can do it, eventually with ease. In fact, I strongly believe that my DD's learning to ride her bike early has given her the extra confidence she needs to keep trying with reading. And yes, she loves it more than ever. Don't you remember learning to ride a bike? It's a wonderful feeling and a lasting sense of glorious freedom.

 

For me, challenge was a necessary part of life and still is. It was the seasoning that kept me interested in each new day. I guess that's why I assume my kids will be better off with some real challenges in life.

[jenbrdsly]

I have stayed out of this conversation b/c so much of it is about personal parenting decisions. But, jenbrdsly, your last post is the one that made me want to share what I have been thinking during the entire discussion. These little people are not simply people that we can dictate how to form and grow and that is the end of it. They are individuals w/their own thoughts, and one day they will become adults. Parenting practices and decisions we make when our children are younger and how they look back and view them will impact our relationship w/them when they are older. That is just simple reality. (and may all of us have adult children that view our decisions positively.) We should never lose sight of where we end and our children begin b/c the 2 are absolutely distinct. (and I know that as obvious as that sounds, there are parents that don't recognize that boundary.)

 

I am glad we are all able to make the decisions to raise our children according to our own dictates.

:iagree::iagree: Very true! At the end of the Tiger Mom book, the author comes to that conclusion too.

 

I would never advocate not making your child learn her times tables because she is "unhappy" about it. But I do think it is wrong to push your child to be first in a spelling bee, if they don't really want to be there in the first place.

[Nart]

I have been puzzled at the negative use of "hothousing" too. I think of it as giving a child an opportunity to learn. To me it means a parent has really thought out how to effectively bridge the gap between where the child is and what they could learn with some support.

 

For example, my child learned to ride a bike without training wheels when he was three. Although I think he is pretty coordinated, it was because I thought about how one learns to ride a bike when he was two years old. When he was two I read about balance bikes (they are lightweight bikes with wheels and a frame but with no chain, pedals, or gears - a preschooler can push it and realize if he lifts up his legs he can glide). I realized that the easiest way to ensure a kid learns to ride a bike is by buying a balance bike and never giving a child a bike with training wheels. My son got a balance bike (Skuut) when he was two and loved riding it around the house and yard for the next 18 months. Three months before he turned 4 my brother visited and wanted to buy him his first real bike. We took him to a grassy hill and he learned how to ride a bike literally within 5 minutes. He just had to work on braking with the pedal and not his feet. I don't think he would have ever learned so early if we hadn't provided him with an opportunity to learn.

 

I think it works for academics as well. I began teaching my son to read right after he turned 4 because he has a history of ear infections, bouts of temporary hearing loss due to prolonged fluid in his ears, and needed help with his articulation. I started because he is going to PS kindergarten and I wanted to make sure he was taught to read phonetically, he was at a much higher risk of having difficulty learning or read, and if there was a problem we could remediate earlier. His speech therapist also said that she could work on phonemic awareness with him since he scored at the 13th percentile rank on a phonemic awareness test (at a rate of 95 dollars an hour - which I was not willing to pay.)

 

He never asked to read and wasn't very interested in learning to read the first two months because it was hard for him. He did struggle at first with hearing the sounds. He had terrible phonemic awareness because he couldn't hear the sounds well. He never in a million years would have learned to read on his own even though he is bright. Nine months after daily 10-15 minute lessons, his phonemic awareness if fantastic (now in the 98th percentile rank) and he reads on a first grade level. He loves reading and is so proud that he can read. He now asks to do his reading lesson. His comprehension is amazing and he reads with intonation which never ceases to amaze me since he didn't speak in 3+ word sentences until he was 3. So again, if I hadn't provided an opportunity for him to learn 10 to 15 minutes a day he wouldn't have learned.

 

So if I am guilty of "hothousing" I will proudly wear that label.

Edited September 23, 2011 by Nart

[Thea]

The first time I heard the term was when my neighbor accused me of 'hothousing' my dc.

 

In OR, you have to test in grades 3,5,8 and 10 BUT you don't have to notify that you are homeschooling until the child is 7 as of September 1st which would be 2nd grade for the majority of kids.

 

However, if you don't specify a grade when registering, they will assign your child as a 1st grader.

 

I never assigned a grade when I registered my dc, therefore I was 'hothousing' since my dc would be 'older' than the other dc taking the test and would therefore do better.

 

I never assigned a grade because my ODD kicks in sometimes and since I didn't HAVE to, I didn't WANT to.

 

In this situation the accusation was silly, since I actually tested two of my dc a year ahead.

 

I definitely got the vibe that the term had a negative connotation and implied that the parent is trying to give their child an unfair academic advantage. To what point and purpose? No idea.

[Carpe]

I feel like a lot of times hothousing is subjective. Like rigorous, humane, conservative, etc. One person can define it to include many more behaviors than another. Eventually there is a line though that everyone considers hothousing (or rigorous, or humane, or conservative, or what-have-you).

 

The issue is that where that line is for hothousing is so incredibly extreme that the expression is almost exclusively associated with only those behaviors and when one lumps in something possibly reasonable and it gets painted with that negative brush.

 

For example, I think most people accept that forcing a 3 year old to play an instrument for 10 hours a day is the bad kind of hothousing. But is it bad to introduce an instrument at 3? Or is it bad for an advanced music student preparing for an audition to practice 10 hours a day? The issue is where the line falls between these reasonable scenarios and the extreme one.

 

I'm sure I fall into the gray area of hothousing. I do introduce things earlier than most and I have high standards for behaviour (age appropriately IMO).

[Donna]

Parents all over the world have different views on how to best raise their children and I have to believe that the majority of the choices parents make are made with their children's best interest at heart.

 

When I think of hothousing, in the negative sense, two things come to mind...the parent's motivation behind the teaching and the means employed by the parent.

 

Is the parent teaching the child to feed the parent's ego or because the child is ready for the challenge? Did the parent decide before the child was born or when they were still very young that their child would be the best (insert whatever here...violinist, earliest reader, top of their class, wrestler, whatever) or did they see an interest in their child either initiated by the child or by the parent exposing them to different things?

 

To me, if the way a parent goes about the teaching involves putting the child down/degrading the child and/or the need for complete control/oversight of the child then to me, that is hothousing. I am talking about something that goes beyond discipline or bringing up the child in the way you see fit. I am thinking about instances when the child's achievement almost becomes like an obsession to the parent so that their relationship with their child and/or their child's own mental health has the potential to be damaged. When the child's achievement rather than the child becomes the focus of the relationship.

 

I don't think the hothousing phenomenon is strictly an academic thing like someone suggested. I know violinists who were hothoused...as a result they play beautifully but hate doing it and chose it only because it was all they felt they were good at in the end. I know young wrestlers burnt out by parents before they hit high school because their dads spent weekend after weekend screaming and cursing at or hitting them for losing matches or even just points, forcing them to cut ridiculous amounts of weight, and never allowing them to try anything else. One I know in particular ending up doing extremely well in high school wrestling but once he was no longer under his father's thumb in college, he flunked out of two different schools and only wrestled part of a year in college before dropping it completely.

[MinivanMom]

To me, if the way a parent goes about the teaching involves putting the child down/degrading the child and/or the need for complete control/oversight of the child then to me, that is hothousing. I am talking about something that goes beyond discipline or bringing up the child in the way you see fit. I am thinking about instances when the child's achievement almost becomes like an obsession to the parent so that their relationship with their child and/or their child's own mental health has the potential to be damaged. When the child's achievement rather than the child becomes the focus of the relationship.

 

I don't think the hothousing phenomenon is strictly an academic thing like someone suggested. I know violinists who were hothoused...as a result they play beautifully but hate doing it and chose it only because it was all they felt they were good at in the end. I know young wrestlers burnt out by parents before they hit high school because their dads spent weekend after weekend screaming and cursing at or hitting them for losing matches or even just points, forcing them to cut ridiculous amounts of weight, and never allowing them to try anything else. One I know in particular ending up doing extremely well in high school wrestling but once he was no longer under his father's thumb in college, he flunked out of two different schools and only wrestled part of a year in college before dropping it completely.

 

:iagree:

 

This is the best definition of hothousing I've seen so far.

 

I have stayed out of this conversation b/c so much of it is about personal parenting decisions. But, jenbrdsly, your last post is the one that made me want to share what I have been thinking during the entire discussion. These little people are not simply people that we can dictate how to form and grow and that is the end of it. They are individuals w/their own thoughts, and one day they will become adults. Parenting practices and decisions we make when our children are younger and how they look back and view them will impact our relationship w/them when they are older. That is just simple reality. (and may all of us have adult children that view our decisions positively.) We should never lose sight of where we end and our children begin b/c the 2 are absolutely distinct. (and I know that as obvious as that sounds, there are parents that don't recognize that boundary.)

 

Beautiful!

[Crimson Wife]

This is how I would define hothousing:

 

Hothousing is drilling a toddler with hours of phonics everyday, even though they are clearly not ready or interested in instruction.

Hothousing is forcing your child to work above grade level even though they are clearly not ready and haven't mastered the underlying skills.

Hothousing is requiring such a burdensome amount of work that a child has no downtime for friends, reading, or creative play.

Hothousing is academic goals based on the parents' desire for personal glory rather than the child's actual academic needs.

Hothousing is requiring your child to spend hours each day practicing an instrument they despise.

Hothousing is a child who regularly cries in frustration and displays signs of extreme psychological distress.

Hothousing is parents who regularly display anger and verbal abuse towards the child when they fail to meet unreasonable expectations.

 

Exactly! And they're doing it because the parents want to be able to put that Harvard, Stanford, MIT, etc. sticker on the back of their luxury SUV. They want a "trophy child" to make them look good the way that they purchase other status symbols like the aforementioned SUV, the designer clothes & accessories, the vacations to exotic locales, etc.

[Thea]

That neighbor is confused. "Redshirting" is the term for a neurotypical child that is a year older than normal for the grade level and hasn't been held back for failing grade level academics.

 

Who knew? :D

[Penelope]

 

For example, my child learned to ride a bike without training wheels when he was three. Although I think he is pretty coordinated, it was because I thought about how one learns to ride a bike when he was two years old. When he was two I read about balance bikes (they are lightweight bikes with wheels and a frame but with no chain, pedals, or gears - a preschooler can push it and realize if he lifts up his legs he can glide). I realized that the easiest way to ensure a kid learns to ride a bike is by buying a balance bike and never giving a child a bike with training wheels. My son got a balance bike (Skuut) when he was two and loved riding it around the house and yard for the next 18 months. Three months before he turned 4 my brother visited and wanted to buy him his first real bike. We took him to a grassy hill and he learned how to ride a bike literally within 5 minutes. He just had to work on braking with the pedal and not his feet. I don't think he would have ever learned so early if we hadn't provided him with an opportunity to learn.

 

 

And yet, I did absolutely no research, and my son also learned shortly before 4. He had had training wheels for about a year and one day announced that I needed to take them off. And off he went. My second child was the same, only he was almost 5. They both ride well, and I did nothing other than give them bicycles.

 

There is helping a child pursue and advance their natural abilities, and then there is the fallacy that what parents do makes a huge difference in the child's development. Some things truly are developmental. The riding a bike and shoe tying examples are motor skills. To me saying that these things are done earlier because they are taught, is akin to saying that my child walked a month earlier than most children because I carefully showed him how to move his legs and insisted that he keep getting up and practice it over and over.

 

 

ETA: I tend to dislike the term hothousing because of how some throw it around as an assumption when a child is advanced. I had a verbally precocious toddler and preschooler who remembered and understood just about everything he ever heard, and would hear all the time that I obviously "worked with him" a lot at home. I even got asked what program I was using, because clearly I was doing something extra special that they weren't. :confused: Rather than assuming that that's just the way he was/is.

Edited September 24, 2011 by Penelope

[Crimson Wife]

I tend to dislike the term hothousing because of how some throw it around as an assumption when a child is advanced. I had a verbally precocious toddler and preschooler who remembered and understood just about everything he ever heard, and would hear all the time that I obviously "worked with him" a lot at home. I even got asked what program I was using, because clearly I was doing something extra special that they weren't. :confused: Rather than assuming that that's just the way he was/is.

 

I dislike the assumption that I'm hothousing my children as well. I'm constantly getting asked by fellow parents who witness my early readers which expensive tutoring chain they attend. Because obviously I must be paying thousands of dollars per year for my preschoolers to spend several hours per week being drilled in phonics :glare:

 

I do teach phonics AFTER the child has figured out on his/her own how to decode simple C-V-C words. That's when it's developmentally appropriate IMHO. And if that doesn't happen until the child is 6 or 7, I'm not going to get freaked out about the fact that he/she is "behind" the way some acquaintances of mine do.

 

My DS had a little friend in the local nature exploration program who dropped out of it in order to start Lindamood-Bell. When I asked the mom if dyslexia ran in the family (IMHO the only reason to start L-B with a 5 y.o.), she answered no, that she was just concerned that her son was in the spring semester of kindergarten but not yet reading. She was terrified that her son was falling "behind" and the solution was to invest big bucks and multiple hours per week doing L-B. :rolleyes:

[LucyStoner]

Honestly -- hothousing isn't teaching your kid what they're ready to learn. It's trying to teach them *before* they're ready and spending an inordinate amount of time on it.

 

Someone who's hothousing wouldn't be backing off when the kid was frustrated and not learning, but jumping curriculum, hiring a tutor or lengthening the time.

 

JMO.

:iagree:

 

Hothoused tomatoes are forced to grow under artificial light and heat. I have never heard this used as a positive term when applied to kids.

 

I have met a lot fo people who are doing it, no one who is proud to call it that. It is not a neutral term or a positive term. It does not mean accelerating kids at their own pace, keeping up with a gifted child or allowing them to blossom naturally. It means trying to speed them up beyond their abilities and current development.

Edited September 25, 2011 by kijipt

[ChandlerMom]

From about.com:

<<

Definition: Hothouse children are children whose parents push them into learning more quickly and earlier than is appropriate for the cognitive age of the children.

>>

 

I think some examples are mixing up pushy parents and abusive parents. A parent can hothouse their child without being critical or harsh on their child. I'm sure a lot of well-meaning parents hothouse. They just put too much pressure and emphasis on learning things before the child is ready. I'm sure that can be done sweetly and lovingly. They may even back off (a bit) -- but there is still an unrelenting pressure to excel. But it's still pushing before they are cognitively ready. ;)

 

Just drawing the distinction. :D If I'm honest, one of the greatest challenges in parenting (esp of a gifted/accelerated child) is keeping in tune with their cognitive level, which is a moving target. Am I going too fast? Am I going too slow? Especially in the early years, it's hit-or-miss. I guess the key is being responsive to your individual child.

Edited September 25, 2011 by ChandlerMom

[Beth in SW WA]

So going back to the mom at the Macy's spelling bee....

 

Was she hothousing to produce a 'trophy' child? What is her motivation? Why did CW choose that event for her dd on a Saturday? Some may perceive that negatively. Do you see the slippery slope? Who are we do judge another parent?

 

I have no problem with luxury SUVs, designer clothes, expensive tutoring and mommy-brag bumper stickers. Why such angst regarding parents who want the Ivy League status? If a parent can afford it that is wonderful! Let them pay for the elite preschool without judgment.

 

No, I'm not claiming folks should abuse their kids. The extreme cases mentioned re the Asian students are not representative of the greater population of honorably-intentioned parents who simply want to create a rich academic environment through various experiences. Some experiences just happen to be out of reach financially for some of us. I am careful not to judge the methodologies and cash outlay of another parent.

[Iucounu]

Beth, I don't think that anyone suggests that the mom at the spelling bee was at fault for spending money on her child. Nor did she spend a dime for the privilege of berating her young son every time he missed a word. There's clearly a line past which parental involvement becomes pushing in a way that's not good for a child; that's what many people are suggesting is meant by "hothousing" when it's used negatively. A hothousing parent might or might not be one to spend lots of money in efforts to "improve" a child, but that's beside the point. I also don't think it's really useful to avoid any sort of judgment about what's acceptable in child rearing by worrying about slippery slopes.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Iucounu

[ChandlerMom]

@Beth: I don't think it's so much a slippery slope as a bell curve. :D

 

Of COURSE we judge other parenting choices! :lol: Sometimes we look and judge it to be so wonderful we choose to adopt it. Sometimes we look and say it's effective/not but will/won't work for OUR child. And yes, sometimes we look at a parenting style and think "wow, I can't see any situation that's a good idea" -- such as abusive behavior.

 

So, it's a bell curve from "No one should ever" to "not for me" to "mmm, might work" to "best idea ever!"

 

Of course, there is a difference between judging a parenting style (necessary to learn) and judging the parent (not productive).

 

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it! :D

[Crimson Wife]

Was she hothousing to produce a 'trophy' child? What is her motivation? Why did CW choose that event for her dd on a Saturday? Some may perceive that negatively. Do you see the slippery slope? Who are we do judge another parent?

 

Why was my DD there? Because when I heard about the bee, I thought it might be a fun intellectual challenge and DD was excited to do it. Had she wanted to pass on it, I would've totally been fine with that. All I cared about was her trying her best- winning would've been a nice bonus since it came with a trip to NYC for the national finals, but it's not worth making a child miserable over it. Especially when the final placement is not just a matter of talent but also luck. DD could spell the words given to the kids immediately ahead of her and also immediately behind her in the round where she was eliminated. Had she been one place different in line, she would've made it through safely.

 

I'm all in favor of providing academic enrichment so long as the child enjoys it and it's about what's best for the child rather than parental bragging rights.

 

That poor little boy did NOT look like he was enjoying the drilling his "tiger mom" was making him do in the slightest. :( I don't think it's healthy and in the long-run it can backfire if the child turns into a perfectionist who considers anything less than #1 as "failure".

[SKL]

About the judging - I think there can be a lot of "blind men and elephant" in this. Which of us has not had our kid make a fuss or put on a show during an activity that is most certainly good for them? One they really enjoy 99.5% of the time?

 

I wasn't there for the spelling bee incident, but it sounded extreme because the mom didn't let up after numerous painful iterations. But I've had times when I've given my kids something to do, just to briefly reinforce a previous lesson - something that they normally would be fine with - and on that day, they didn't feel cooperative. They were tired, distracted, feeling some stranger's penetrating eyes on them, or just vying for extra attention. Whatever. But once I ask my kids to do something they CAN do (or to give something one honest try), I generally won't let it go just because they start acting silly. I think that could set a bad precedent. So I might say, "do this x times [or for x minutes] and then you can move on to y." A person only seeing that moment of our lives could form a wrong opinion - if they chose to judge.

 

If we never give our kids advanced opportunities, how will we really know whether they are ready? Is a missed opportunity better than risking a judgment of "hothousing"?

 

I used to be judgmental of other parents, until I realized how often my kids would throw me for a loop. Now I mostly just have compassion for whatever it is they are trying to get through.

[Beth in SW WA]

@Beth: I don't think it's so much a slippery slope as a bell curve. :D

 

Well stated!

 

Of course, there is a difference between judging a parenting style (necessary to learn) and judging the parent (not productive).

 

 

Beth, I don't think that anyone suggests that the mom at the spelling bee was at fault for spending money on her child.

 

No, CW did not make any statement about the cost/price/etc.

 

Nor did she spend a dime for the privilege of berating her young son every time he missed a word.

 

You don't know the context of this exchange. You don't know the history. An outsider looking in could perceive this situation differently depending on an array of things (world view, parenting style, culture, etc).

 

I also don't think it's really useful to avoid any sort of judgment about what's acceptable in child rearing by worrying about slippery slopes.

 

I disagree. I'm an expert on my kids only. I don't make judgment calls about how other parents raise their kids.

 

Why was my DD there? Because when I heard about the bee, I thought it might be a fun intellectual challenge and DD was excited to do it. Had she wanted to pass on it, I would've totally been fine with that.

 

The point is: It is your choice to expose your kids to whatever experiences you deem worthwhile. My stream of questions to you (above) illustrates how ridiculous it is to question another parent's motivation. It's their kid. If they want to spend a fortune...great. If they choose not spend the time/energy/cost on a certain activity/event...great. It's nobody's business but the parent in charge.

 

This forum should be a safe place for us to share our experiences. I'm not comfortable with passing judgments. I've been on the receiving end of negative criticism and judgments from folks who don't know my heart, my history and my motivation. I've also been the victim of class warfare (irl) where I've been the one ridiculed by those who play the class card. Touchy subject (but that's for another day).

 

This conversation has been enlightening.

 

 

If we never give our kids advanced opportunities, how will we really know whether they are ready? Is a missed opportunity better than risking a judgment of "hothousing"?

 

 

Hmmmm.... Fantastic questions. Only a parent can truly know, imho.

[Roadrunner]

Few random thoughts. Considering PS standards ( at least what I have seen so far in the elementary school), being above grade doesn't mean much. I must admit we live in a very relaxed area where nobody seems to care much about any standards. In fact, the overwhelming feeling among parents is that their children are getting the best education they can dream about, so I haven't personally dealt with competitive parents. However, seeing curriculum choices many schools are making, I am not surprised parents are frantic to hire tutors. Frankly, if I don't sit with my kids, I don't think they will ever read a single piece of real children's literature in the elementary school.

I also feel that immigrants look at education very differently. In developing countires the only ticket to a normal life (food on the table, a job) is a good education and a college degree. In the U.S. for a long time you could go into trade and make a very good living for your family without, a situation unheard of in many parts of the world.

Sorry for being a bit incoherent, disco music is destroying my eardrums. Don't ask. :001_smile:

[jenbrdsly]

I just wanted to say once again that I have known CrimsomWife in real life for over 13 years and she is a wonderful friend, parent, and human being. I do not find her to be a judgmental person at all, but rather a person of incredible discernment. If she felt that the child at the spelling bee was being emotionally bullied by his parent, then I believe CW 100%. She should feel free to share her opinion without being "judged for judging".

Edited September 26, 2011 by jenbrdsly

[Crimson Wife]

Well, I think this marks the first time in my life that I've been accused of class warfare. What makes you so certain that my family couldn't afford a luxury SUV, designer clothes, etc. if we wanted those kinds of status symbols? It all boils down to a difference in values: some people place great importance on trying to impress others by their outward appearances, down to having the perfect little "trophy children". Others reject consumerism and the whole rat race. Not because of "sour grapes" but rather because they value substance over style.

[Greenmama2]

Wow what an intense and convoluted thread. As in everything this kind of stuff is totally in the eye of the beholder IMO. Let me confuse it even more by throwing in another anecdote.

I know a family whose eldest child read early. Around 4. They would say earlier but since I don't consider decoding and even sounding out strings of words and slowly putting them into sentences as Reading. In any case she read early and when she started K at 5.5 she took Lord of The Rings on her first day in case she got bored and wanted to read (fringed mother's FB status).

We both know a third family, the father in this family works in Autism education. Recently we caught up socially and he asked me if the girl above has yet received her Asperger's diagnosis and described her as hyperlexic. Uh no. I have no idea if this girl is on the spectrum or not, but I know for sure this is not a hyperlexic child. She was TAUGHT to read. Painstakingly, incessantly, constantly taught. Every interaction I witnessed between this child and her mother from her second birthday onwards included some kind of quizzing on phonics or the child being prompted to read to read aloud - "H, what does this say? That's right kuh ah tuh - cat!".

To me it was hothousing. To my friend the child appears hyperlexic. Whatever. Actually, it's neither of our business.

[Beth in SW WA]

I just wanted to say once again that I have known CrimsomWife in real life for over 13 years and she is a wonderful friend, parent, and human being. I do not find her to be a judgmental person at all, but rather a person of incredible discernment. If she felt that the child at the spelling bee was being emotionally bullied by his parent, then I believe CW 100%. She should feel free to share her opinion without being "judged for judging".

 

Jen, I have no doubt that CW is exactly as you have described. My initial question addressed the general confusion I have as to why some parents negatively judge other parent's choices. I'm not 'judging' nor am I character-bashing. That's not my style.

 

Well, I think this marks the first time in my life that I've been accused of class warfare.

 

You weren't accused of class warfare. I said I have experienced it irl (which means 'in real life'). Ironically, it has been all over the news in the last week. I am highly sensitive to others assuming that 'rich white Americans' don't give 'their fair share' and all that nonsense. Class warfare is a dominant agenda item in certain political ideologies. (A different topic for a different day.) Since I don't know you from Eve -- I am not making a claim about you. Again, that's not how I roll. I am deeply sorry if you feel attacked. I am honestly trying to probe as to the meaning/connotations of hothousing.

What makes you so certain that my family couldn't afford a luxury SUV, designer clothes, etc.

 

I didn't make any claims what about you can or can't afford. That is not my business. It is irrelevant.

 

if we wanted those kinds of status symbols? It all boils down to a difference in values: some people place great importance on trying to impress others by their outward appearances, down to having the perfect little "trophy children".

I don't know any of those people.

 

 

In a previous thread regarding this topic similar sentiments were shared. I'm just coming late to the party. Sounds like a polarizing topic which has circled here before. I am sorry for beating an already-dead horse.

 

I'll repeat what I have said before in other threads here. I love the mommy brag posts about wee ones doing amazing things. I love reading about the clever ideas people have and how others are successfully accelerating their average/bright/gifted kids. I really love reading about the joys and challenges of raising gifted kids. I am inspired by everyone's passion for education.

[Beth in SW WA]

Wow what an intense and convoluted thread. As in everything this kind of stuff is totally in the eye of the beholder IMO.

 

:iagree:

 

A dear friend remembers coming on our boat with us when my older dd was K'ish age. Dd read US News & World Report on a beach chair and my friend was completely puzzled by it. She reminded me of it recently and we always get a chuckle. From the outside looking in, it may appear that I was forcing her to read on a beach day. Only a parent knows the whole story. That is my take-away from this hot-housing debate.

[Greenmama2]

:iagree:

Only a parent knows the whole story. That is my take-away from this hot-housing debate.

 

Yes.

[Iucounu]

:iagree:

 

A dear friend remembers coming on our boat with us when my older dd was K'ish age. Dd read US News & World Report on a beach chair and my friend was completely puzzled by it. She reminded me of it recently and we always get a chuckle. From the outside looking in, it may appear that I was forcing her to read on a beach day. Only a parent knows the whole story. That is my take-away from this hot-housing debate.

 

I don't understand how a child reading a magazine without any input from a parent can be compared to a parent berating a child while demanding that the child spell a bunch of words. One's just a child reading; the other is a parent pushing, no?

[Beth in SW WA]

I don't understand how a child reading a magazine without any input from a parent can be compared to a parent berating a child while demanding that the child spell a bunch of words. One's just a child reading; the other is a parent pushing, no?

 

Was I comparing them? I'm not making a judgment call. Please refer to my prior statements.

[Nart]

I don't understand how a child reading a magazine without any input from a parent can be compared to a parent berating a child while demanding that the child spell a bunch of words. One's just a child reading; the other is a parent pushing, no?

 

I agree with the previous posters that only the parent knows the whole story. Spelling has become like a competitive sport. The National Spelling Bee is now on ESPN every year. The winner of the contest won a trip to NY. Maybe the family is really into spelling like others put their kids into sports like gymnastics or football, where some parents really push their kids. Who knows? If you don't know a family well it is hard to say what was going on.