How did YOU get obedience?

[LucyStoner]

Crate training.

 

My kids love their crates. I put fresh water and Skittles in there.

 

Works like a charm. Seriously. My kids have never been arrested and they are very decent folks. One got a free ride to grad school and everything.

:lol:

[*Inna*]

I start reading books about ADHD even though I believe 100% that it doesn't exist. :D

Wow. Really?

[Rosie_0801]

However, I really don't require "first time, cheerful" obedience. I will take "first time, respectful, yet unhappy" obedience. I think that is more realistic.

 

Mm. My mother was not content with anything less than cheerful. In fact, the less happy I was, the happier I was supposed to act. It's hard to paste delight over miserable. What did I learn? I learned that my mother didn't like me. She wasn't a bad mother in the scheme of things, and she'd be heart broken to know, but I'm still quite sure neither of my parents like/d me.

 

Then there's the other weirdness which I'm REALLY looking forward to with my own. :glare: Teaching children when to be disobedient. It's going to be great fun, I'm sure.

 

Rosie

[ktgrok]

Oh no, I didn't know there would be anyone on here dog savvy enough to realize that this was a clicker vs. Koehler debate!!! I am terribly tempted to get into it, but I'll refrain. :D One thing that I will say about the dog world is that at least most trainers have the same goal in mind. From reading these responses, even the mere idea of obedience in children is controversial.

 

I completely agree with what is in bold above. Spanking makes the reaction to disobedience very easy, thoughtless, and consistent. You disobey, you get a spank. But I believe you that it is achievable without spanking. In fact in Godly Tomatoes, she addresses situations when a parent does not want to spank, and states that it will be a lot more work but is achievable. That is really what I'm struggling with.

 

LOL. Yup....and here is the issue...if you CAN get the same results without hitting your child, or "correcting" the dog, shouldn't you? I mean, yes it takes more work, but is lazyness a good reason to hit your child? We are asking them to make an effort, and we should be willing to make that effort too.

 

I do think that mosts training techniques will work with most dogs, with minimal damage. However, I think if you can train and be kind too, than you should. And I think that some training methods, with some dogs, can lead to horrible damage......my weimaraner being one of the dogs that was damaged by Koehler's methods. God, that poor dog. I will never forgive myself for that. And for the record, when I switched and put the time in using positive, relationship building methods, she became an amazingly obedient dog. People were constantly shocked by her responsiveness. But what did it wasn't correction. What did it wasn't treats either, actually, now that I think about it. What did it was relationship, the time I spent earning her trust.

 

And I do like the Godly Tomatoes website, and I don't spank. I think the biggest factors there are outlasting, and dealing with stuff before it gets out of hand. It was eye opening to me too, but I still don't spank.

[Ariston]

Consider that real obedience might come from a child who's learned self-discipline. The spanking might get obedience but it really doesn't do much for self-discipline in a child. In a way they sometimes even work to opposite ends. Self-discipline (and I keep adding that 'self' because I really think that's the only kind there is) is about doing the right and good thing even when it's hard like doing the laundry or taking the cup to the sink. Obedience is just about doing what you're told. It's a mask or a show, but not the real substance. Even when I used it what I really meant was that my kids have the self-discipline to follow through on what I require them to do.

 

I think you're actually looking more for that self-discipline piece.

 

It is interesting that you and I can be as you stated elsewhere close together yet seemingly far apart. I found myself in vehement agreement or disagreement with every other line in your post. For example, I completely agree that self-disciplined adults are what I'm after. But i vehemently disagree that obedience is counter productive to that. In fact, I believe that obedience is the very foundation for self-discipline. It is learning how to hear 'no' from others, and later how to tell yourself 'no'.

 

Consider that things have slipped then. You're spanking wasn't really working as well as you think or really getting you the results you wanted. If it was, there wouldn't be the slipping back when it stopped.

 

Hm, I don't know about you , but I've managed to slip off of many good and righteous paths :)

 

I've got a book recommendation for you that I think would REALLY help you sort this out. It's Barbara Coloroso's Kids Are Worth It! It's not a point-by-point guidebook but more of a read that will help you give your parenting goals real thought and then start building a foundation. She also talks about parents who come from either very strict or very permissive backgrounds and how they tend to swing from one extreme to the other in their parenting. I'm wondering if some of that might apply? In any case it will probably help ground you a bit.

 

Thanks, I'll check it out.

 

 

No biggie. It's one of those hot button topics. Take what works and ignore what doesn't. :D

 

yes, i believe that is the ESSENTIAL skill needed on these boards!

Elena

[LauraGB]

You guys are kind of freaking me out by discussing kid and dog training all in the same thread...

[justamouse]

Oh no, I didn't know there would be anyone on here dog savvy enough to realize that this was a clicker vs. Koehler debate!!! I am terribly tempted to get into it, but I'll refrain. :D One thing that I will say about the dog world is that at least most trainers have the same goal in mind. From reading these responses, even the mere idea of obedience in children is controversial.

 

I completely agree with what is in bold above. Spanking makes the reaction to disobedience very easy, thoughtless, and consistent. You disobey, you get a spank. But I believe you that it is achievable without spanking. In fact in Godly Tomatoes, she addresses situations when a parent does not want to spank, and states that it will be a lot more work but is achievable. That is really what I'm struggling with.

 

Well, obedience brings to mind a well trained animal-which is why you're getting pushback. ALL of us what to have wonderful children who grow up into adults that give to society and are good, decent, people. Some mom's just realize that 'obedience' is the bonus and not the goal.

 

Self discipline comes FIRST, after they've been taught. Obedience is what happens AFTER, when they are loved, respected, taught, and taught and taught.

Edited August 27, 2011 by justamouse

[2squared]

I completely agree with what is in bold above. Spanking makes the reaction to disobedience very easy, thoughtless, and consistent. You disobey, you get a spank. But I believe you that it is achievable without spanking. In fact in Godly Tomatoes, she addresses situations when a parent does not want to spank, and states that it will be a lot more work but is achievable. That is really what I'm struggling with.

 

Thinking out loud....parenting without spanking requires a huge investment in relationships with your children. It's a lifestyle. So, it does require a lot of work. (Similar to homeschooling.) Spanking is easy - probably too easy. It's one-dimensional. When I become too punitive, I see our relationships eroding and overall behavior declining.

 

It's also kind like making cookes. Buying pre-made dough is easy and effective, but eating home-made cookies is an experience to savour. :001_smile:

[LibraryLover]

Mm. My mother was not content with anything less than cheerful. In fact, the less happy I was, the happier I was supposed to act. It's hard to paste delight over miserable. What did I learn? I learned that my mother didn't like me. She wasn't a bad mother in the scheme of things, and she'd be heart broken to know, but I'm still quite sure neither of my parents like/d me.

 

Then there's the other weirdness which I'm REALLY looking forward to with my own. :glare: Teaching children when to be disobedient. It's going to be great fun, I'm sure.

 

Rosie

 

 

Rosie! I think you are not real. :)

 

You always seem to know the exact thing to say at the exact right time.

 

You are speshul. ;)

 

I mean that in the very best way!

 

There is a reason we all lurve you. :)

[Mommyfaithe]

That's funny... the kids I knew who were like had had either parents who were very not strict or families that were dysfunctional. Also, there were some who cared more about their friends than health and morality and were really into the emo thing.

 

My friends and I were the good kids in school. The ones who were at the top of the class, went to top universities, and obeyed their parents. The parents of my friends were strict. They did expect first time obedience. They did require much of their children. Their homes were not dysfunctional. Love abounded. High expectations were set and met. My friend with the strictest parents got her masters *and* bachelors from Stanford in 4 years. Then she went out into the world and helped starving villages find an ecomonic means to support themselves. Every single person from this group has gone on to do great things with their lives.

 

None of us snuck out, skipped school, had sex, were cutters, smoked, did drugs, or hated our parents. Plenty of people in high school did, though.

 

I was not talking about strictness, rules, or heavy guidance. I was talking specifically about teaching obedience with spanking as the form of training...or the only form of training. I know one family that spanked their 16 year old daughter ....for not doing a good job on the dishes...seriously! In my house the punishment...or consequence would have been to do the dishes again...and if there was attitude attached I would deal with that as a teaching moment as well...NOT take a stick to the kid...kwim?

 

I definitely disciple my kids. They are not willy nilly do whatever you feel like any time you feel like kids. My kids do obey me...they know I am their biggest cheerleader...they know I ,ove them more than myself. I do not look at obedience as a point of my pride. Their obedience helps THEM.

 

Oh, my dd graduated summa cum laude...7 th in her class with a degree in Graphic Design and advertising. She has been working in her chosen field since her 3 rd year of college for very large corporations even in this economy in a very competitive field. My 2nd dd is a 4.0 student as a senior and is on almost full scholarship. Ds is living in NYC, supporting himself, working and going to school....and doing extremely well....I didn't have to spank them...I had to teach them...and come up alongside them. They love the Lord, they love each other, they love and communicate well with their parents.

 

So, that 16 y/o in my anecdote is now 25. Her parents did not allow her to go to college. She got married as soon as she turned 21....and cut all ties with her family. She is just one of many kids I know whose parents ruled with a rod...not a narrow path.

 

Faithe

[simka2]

Oh no, I didn't know there would be anyone on here dog savvy enough to realize that this was a clicker vs. Koehler debate!!! QUOTE]

 

You might be very surprised who is on this forum. In fact I think there is a poster (to your thread) whose dd has gone rather far in the dog show world. If memory serves there was an interview by GMA before one of the big BIG shows. ;)

[justamouse]

Crate training.

 

My kids love their crates. I put fresh water and Skittles in there daily.

 

Works like a charm. Seriously. My kids have never been arrested and they are very decent folks. One got a free ride to grad school and everything.

:lol::lol::lol:

[LibraryLover]

You guys are kind of freaking me out by discussing kid and dog training all in the same thread...

 

 

I know, right? LOL

 

We'll go with it for now.

[Truscifi]

You guys are kind of freaking me out by discussing kid and dog training all in the same thread...

 

:iagree:

[ktgrok]

to defend the OP, dog trainers tend to equate EVERYTHING with dog training. Bad habit of ours :)

 

Check out tag teaching....it is the human version of clicker training, and is used in physical therapy and with special needs kids.

[simka2]

You guys are kind of freaking me out by discussing kid and dog training all in the same thread...

 

I know, right? LOL

 

We'll go with it for now.

Well there was the one trainer I worked with who told me kids were like horses. :tongue_smilie:

 

Actually, she was being pretty generous. Her exact comment was, "Horses, like children need clear boundaries, constant positive reinforcement, love, understanding, good food, exercise, training and regular medical care."

[Joanne]

Thinking out loud....parenting without spanking requires a huge investment in relationships with your children. It's a lifestyle. So, it does require a lot of work. (Similar to homeschooling.) Spanking is easy - probably too easy. It's one-dimensional. When I become too punitive, I see our relationships eroding and overall behavior declining.

 

It's also kind like making cookes. Buying pre-made dough is easy and effective, but eating home-made cookies is an experience to savour. :001_smile:

 

Honestly, as I wrote years ago on my site, any kind of good parenting require the same amount of time.

 

Good parenting is engaged, involved, includes structure, standards, knowledge of age-expected behavior and a variety of tools to respond to the needs of your kids and the situation.

 

Spanking or not, good parenting looks the same: Mom and Dad are off their butts, saying it once (and making sure what they say is worth it), and following through.

 

Spanking, if use at *all* should be infrequent. The other extreme, that of less rules, should also be avoided. Good parenting is in between.

[ktgrok]

clicker training for humans: http://www.tagteach.com/

[Ariston]

Persistence, consistent expectations, consequences and (sorry!:D) a shift in thinking so that it wasn't about obedience but rather about simply doing their part as family members.

 

I think you could adopt the first three without the fourth. If I expect my son to do a load of laundry for instance, then he's going to do it. If he kicks up a fuss I stand there calmly and tell him again to do it. I don't engage any argument, I just calmly repeat myself. If it goes on (which it has in the past) then I state the consequence. My favourite is stacking firewood. It's good, useful physical work that gives him some accomplishment and lets him get some exercise to clear his head. We go out and I calmly give him his goal ("I need two rows there Harry") and then stand by. I complement his work, let him know he did well and we go back in to, you guessed it, have him do the laundry.

 

If he refuses to stack then he stays right where he is and nothing happens until he changes his mind. No TV, no toys, no snacks, no engagement from me except for the occasional reminder that he can watch TV/eat/whatver when he's finished his job. No threats or punishment. Just low-drama boredom. When he finally relents he then goes and stacks wood and then does the laundry. There is never any getting out of the chores.

 

When he's done I thank him, give him a hug and let him know I'm proud that he took responsibility for the job. We might also have a short discussion on what he thinks might have happened if he'd just done the laundry in the first place. I honestly don't remember having to do this with my daughter. She just pitches in.

 

It is hard sometimes. Really hard. A spank would be much easier. But this way doesn't escalate the drama. It gives him a lot of food for thought and adds to his character as he begins to take an honest look at his behaviour. It also improves MY character because by gosh, it takes a LOT to just stay calm sometimes and not fly off the handle. The other great thing about it is that when it's over, it's over. I don't have to keep him off the TV for a week or feel guilty about losing it. He's done what I've asked and we've resolved the situation case closed.

 

Stacking wood is my default for him is any situation like this. I've also used it for carelessness - leaving the door open once so that our old dog that's horrible to catch got out. BUT, I only use it when I WILL carry it through. Not when I'm tired or cranky. At those times I might give him an out - "It doesn't need to be done right away. Just make sure you get that load in before lunch, okay?" I do pick my battles. And I should also note that Harry's woodpiles is only 5 or five rows high. It's very effective. :) At this point I generally just have to give him my stink eye or say, "Harry." in my Tone of Doom and he'll drop the resistance.

 

Gosh, I sound nasty. :D

 

One thing has become clear to me...in order to achieve obedience, which I would describe you as doing even if you do not call it that, there seem to be two methods. One is spanking, which as you say is easy and quick. The other is what you're describing, which sounds like it takes a lot of focus and hard work. Its what's described in the book I read (How to get your child to do....) and Goddly Tomatoes, if one does not take the spanking route. It sounds, in short, like the kind of thing I'd have to do even if I'd rather be on my laptop reading WTM Forums!

[Sputterduck]

Crate training.

 

My kids love their crates. I put fresh water and Skittles in there daily.

 

Works like a charm. Seriously. My kids have never been arrested and they are very decent folks. One got a free ride to grad school and everything.

 

Isn't that basically what a crib is? :tongue_smilie:

[Parker Martin]

I want my kids to be obedient. By this I mean I want them to do what I tell them, with a good attitude, the first time I ask. All the time.

 

What's the long term goal? A strained relationship with your children? Estrangement?

 

If so, then yes, you should ignore whatever is developmentally appropriate or reasonable, focus instead upon perfection, and punish, in the harshest manner possible, anything less. You can feel good about reigning over your home with absolute power, and you'll ensure that you have plenty of free time to pursue solitary hobbies in your old age.

 

That said...

 

We get excellent obedience appropriate to our children's ages. We do it by being consistent and by being loving. There's lots of praise and reward for good behavior, and there are swift and expected consequences for bad behavior. Our expectation is set at good-hearted, obedient kids. But not robots.

 

To get a perfectly behaved robot, you'd have to make a person live in constant fear of you, thus destroying your relationship. What's the point?

[Joanne]

It is interesting that you and I can be as you stated elsewhere close together yet seemingly far apart. I found myself in vehement agreement or disagreement with every other line in your post. For example, I completely agree that self-disciplined adults are what I'm after. But i vehemently disagree that obedience is counter productive to that. In fact, I believe that obedience is the very foundation for self-discipline. It is learning how to hear 'no' from others, and later how to tell yourself 'no'.

 

 

 

 

But it doesn't "develop" that way. Self-discipline isn't taught through other-control. The reason you are imposing the expectation of obedience is because they are children. The development of the maturity necessary for delayed gratification, for other-centered choices, for doing the right thing can't be punished into a child.

 

It has to emerge from the depth of life experience, time, and the growing child's interaction with life, with logical/natural consequences. It doesn't happen at 2 - 12 or even 22. What happens at 2 does not have a straight trajectory or predictable results at 12, and 22.

 

To be honest, the best way to create the possibility of developing self-control is to get out of the way. You teach, you guide, you coach, you model. You enforce reasonable rules. As they get older, you get out of the way so they can equipped with the necesseary tools, begin to make choices. And so they can fail (sometimes) and succeed (sometimes).

 

It's a fallacy that obedience (cheerful or otherwise) creates anything other than obedience.

[Ariston]

to defend the OP, dog trainers tend to equate EVERYTHING with dog training. Bad habit of ours :)

.

 

:lol: I never realized that but it is so true! Training a dog is such a deep and philosophical experience. And it raises issues that relate to morality, education and society...which is why there are natural parallels here. But I guess some people hear 'dog' or even 'training' and put a very bland spin on it.

[justamouse]

To get a perfectly behaved robot, you'd have to make a person live in constant fear of you, thus destroying your relationship. What's the point?

 

THIS.

 

Reminded me of something good I heard this weekend.

 

I was at a Catechist class, and the nun walk talking about levels of attachment, and, the lowest level of attachment was through fear.

[Sputterduck]

I was not talking about strictness, rules, or heavy guidance. I was talking specifically about teaching obedience with spanking as the form of training...or the only form of training. I know one family that spanked their 16 year old daughter ....for not doing a good job on the dishes...seriously! In my house the punishment...or consequence would have been to do the dishes again...and if there was attitude attached I would deal with that as a teaching moment as well...NOT take a stick to the kid...kwim?

 

I definitely disciple my kids. They are not willy nilly do whatever you feel like any time you feel like kids. My kids do obey me...they know I am their biggest cheerleader...they know I ,ove them more than myself. I do not look at obedience as a point of my pride. Their obedience helps THEM.

 

Oh, my dd graduated summa cum laude...7 th in her class with a degree in Graphic Design and advertising. She has been working in her chosen field since her 3 rd year of college for very large corporations even in this economy in a very competitive field. My 2nd dd is a 4.0 student as a senior and is on almost full scholarship. Ds is living in NYC, supporting himself, working and going to school....and doing extremely well....I didn't have to spank them...I had to teach them...and come up alongside them. They love the Lord, they love each other, they love and communicate well with their parents.

 

So, that 16 y/o in my anecdote is now 25. Her parents did not allow her to go to college. She got married as soon as she turned 21....and cut all ties with her family. She is just one of many kids I know whose parents ruled with a rod...not a narrow path.

 

Faithe

 

Okay.

Well, *only* spanking is stoopit. I was spanked and I'm sure all my friends were, but there was much more to our parents' parenting than that...

 

Spanking a 16 year old is a shocking!

 

I'm glad your kids are doing so well. :)

 

p.s. - Stoopit is an excessively stupid form of stupid.

[Guest submarines]

One thing has become clear to me...in order to achieve obedience, which I would describe you as doing even if you do not call it that, there seem to be two methods. One is spanking, which as you say is easy and quick.

 

And doesn't generalise to situations where you can't or don't want to spank. (In addition to all the other issues with the method).

 

The other is what you're describing, which sounds like it takes a lot of focus and hard work. Its what's described in the book I read (How to get your child to do....) and Goddly Tomatoes, if one does not take the spanking route. It sounds, in short, like the kind of thing I'd have to do even if I'd rather be on my laptop reading WTM Forums!

 

Yeah, kinda. ;)

[simka2]

:lol: I never realized that but it is so true! Training a dog is such a deep and philosophical experience. And it raises issues that relate to morality, education and society...which is why there are natural parallels here. But I guess some people hear 'dog' or even 'training' and put a very bland spin on it.

 

Can I ask a question? Do you hit your dogs?

 

I have seen many animal trainers train their animals with quite a bit of skill, only to become very lazy with their own kids. I am not saying you are, but from my limited knowledge of dog training I did not think hitting was acceptable.

Edited August 27, 2011 by simka2

[Ariston]

:lol: I never realized that but it is so true! Training a dog is such a deep and philosophical experience. And it raises issues that relate to morality, education and society...which is why there are natural parallels here. But I guess some people hear 'dog' or even 'training' and put a very bland spin on it.

 

Also, what I find very interesting, is that the charge of 'turning dogs in to mindless robots' is also often leveled against Koehler trainers...so even those of you who find the dog comparison weird, please realize that you ARE having a dog training conversation, even if you don't realize you are!

[Parker Martin]

A certain goal being appropriate for one's dog does not make it an appropriate goal for one's child.

[8circles]

This conversation is weird.

[LibraryLover]

This conversation is weird.

 

 

Of course it is!

[SKL]

I'm pretty sure that as soon as I become perfect, my children will follow along.

 

But as for immediately useful advice: Real, consistent, unemotional consequences. If you fight over a toy, you both lose it. Period. If you get an attitude about something I chose, you get nothing. If you haven't met your responsibilities on time, you miss out on something you like.

 

I have been pleasantly surprised by the effectiveness of "early bedtime" as a discipline tool.

 

But since I am not perfectly consistent about the above, my kids are not perfectly obedient. Nor will they ever be, though I sure would like them to be. PS, I do occasionally spank. Sometimes, nothing says "I mean what I say" like a smarting butt.

[Guest submarines]

This conversation is weird.

 

However it is still civil, and, therefore, enjoyable. ;)

[8circles]

 

I'm pretty sure that as soon as I become perfect, my children will follow along.

:lol:

[kitten18]

I start reading books about ADHD even though I believe 100% that it doesn't exist.

 

What? I don't think I understand.:confused:

 

What's the long term goal? A strained relationship with your children? Estrangement?

 

If so, then yes, you should ignore whatever is developmentally appropriate or reasonable, focus instead upon perfection, and punish, in the harshest manner possible, anything less. You can feel good about reigning over your home with absolute power, and you'll ensure that you have plenty of free time to pursue solitary hobbies in your old age.

 

That said...

 

We get excellent obedience appropriate to our children's ages. We do it by being consistent and by being loving. There's lots of praise and reward for good behavior, and there are swift and expected consequences for bad behavior. Our expectation is set at good-hearted, obedient kids. But not robots.

 

To get a perfectly behaved robot, you'd have to make a person live in constant fear of you, thus destroying your relationship. What's the point?

I like you. :D

[LauraGB]

Also, what I find very interesting, is that the charge of 'turning dogs in to mindless robots' is also often leveled against Koehler trainers...so even those of you who find the dog comparison weird, please realize that you ARE having a dog training conversation, even if you don't realize you are!

 

But, as I understand it, a dog's understanding of human function rarely surpasses that of the understanding of a two year old child. So, I guess, I wouldn't agree that training a child to be an independent adult is even remotely the same as training a dog to be an obedient companion.

[Mommyfaithe]

Okay.

Well, *only* spanking is stoopit. I was spanked and I'm sure all my friends were, but there was much more to our parents' parenting than that...

 

Spanking a 16 year old is a shocking!

 

I'm glad your kids are doing so well. :)

 

p.s. - Stoopit is an excessively stupid form of stupid.

 

:D...yep...we say stoopit...lol.

 

I wasn't bragging on my kids....much...I do think they are fantastic though.

 

Faithe

[Alice]

From reading these responses, even the mere idea of obedience in children is controversial.

 

 

 

I don't think it's the idea of obedience that is controversial it's the idea of "first time only and always cheerful" obedience that is controversial. I read the thread as most people agreeing that obedience is important but that many of the people posting see obedience as more of a process and part of relationship than something you "achieve" or check off a to-do list.

 

I'm a big believer in age-appropriate expectations. I have very different expectations from my 7 yr old and my 2 yr old. If I ask my 7 yr old to come and help with dinner he is allowed to say "Can I finish this chapter?" (The answer, of course, always being yes. ;)). He has to be polite, he has to treat me with respect but he doesn't have to jump to my every command. If I tell him we have to leave the pool when he wants to stay he has to leave but I can't imagine expecting him to be cheerful about it. Again, he has to be polite but I don't ask him to fake emotions that he doesn't feel.

 

You've gotten a lot of book suggestions. I'm guessing you are a Christian from your previous posts. If so, the book that I found the most helpful was Grace Based Parenting by Tim Kimmel. It taught me a lot about my own heart and attitude towards parenting. I like that he doesn't really suggest a particular discipline method, it's more of a philosophy than a how-to.

 

I think the main principles that have worked for us have been ones that people here have already mentioned. We strive first of all to have a good relationship with our kids so they want to obey. We are clear with our expectations. We are consistent. We treat them with respect. We ask them to treat us and each other with respect. We have age-appropriate expectations. When they still disobey, as all kids will, we discipline with various means (time-out, taking away privileges, etc.). I'm also a big believer in fitting the punishment to the crime and to the kid's personality. My oldest loves money. When we've had big issues with him, he has to pay us. That has always worked. (Once when he was going through a phase of saying potty words he had to pay me a quarter each time. He lost only one quarter.) I've told the boys that if they fight, clearly they don't have enough to do so we have a rule that if you fight you clean. They get extra chores. My four year old, typical of that age, recently went through a stage of having tantrums when any little thing didn't go his way. He was required to go to his room and stay on his bed until he got under control.

 

I think part of parenting is being creative, always trying to figure out what motivates your kids and what is going to work now. There isn't a one size fits all answer to anything in parenting and anyone who gives you an answer that supposedly will work without fail for every kid is setting you up for failure.

[Ariston]

Can I ask a question? Do you hit your dogs?

 

I have seen many animal trainers train their animals with quite a bit of skill, only to become very lazy with their own kids. I am not saying you are, but from my limited knowledge of dog training I did not think hitting was acceptable.

 

Oh no, is this really true? am I doomed?!

 

I don't know exactly how you'd define 'hit'. I'd beat a very aggressive dog within an inch of his life, if that's what you mean. A 'regular' dog who is merely experimenting with aggression (i.e. growling over food) I'd bop on the muzzle...sort of like a punch but from top down. I would not hit a dog for things other than aggression.

[LibraryLover]

Oh no, is this really true? am I doomed?!

 

I don't know exactly how you'd define 'hit'. I'd beat a very aggressive dog within an inch of his life, if that's what you mean. A 'regular' dog who is merely experimenting with aggression (i.e. growling over food) I'd bop on the muzzle...sort of like a punch but from top down. I would not hit a dog for things other than aggression.

 

Your credibility is serioulsy being questioned. :)

[Ariston]

This conversation is weird.

 

This may be my favorite single comment that I have seen on any thread. :)

[Ariston]

Your credibility is serioulsy being questioned. :)

 

Yes, I know....these days the much more humane method is promoted: 1) separate your aggressive dog from all people if there is food around. 2) make a mistake; get your child bitten. 3) euthanize your dog. :(

 

ETA: Now this is one area where I DO NOT believe there are parallels! Dogs may be moral creatures, but they are animals. I don't think physical punishment would be an effective tool against childhood aggression. I have also never yelled at my kids in a deep, growling voice nor snarled. This is the point where I'd agree that a dog is a dog, and a child a child.

Edited August 27, 2011 by epignone

[PiCO]

Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by never expecting it, and never wanting it. I don't want obedient children. I want thinking children, questioning children, children who will challenge blind authority and exercise their own decision making powers. Obedient children grow up to be either rebellious teens / adults, or obedient adults. Neither is my goal, as neither characterises happy, productive, creative, members of society.

 

:iagree:

Kids that are trained to be "happily obedient the first time" give me the heebee jeebees. It's unnatural for humans.

 

 

And this: "Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by _________________." Sounds like we are training dogs.

 

(BTW- my kids are very well-behaved. And I have nothing against a little spanking for some kids (like my second.))

[Sputterduck]

Yes, I know....these days the much more humane method is promoted: 1) separate your aggressive dog from all people if there is food around. 2) make a mistake; get your child bitten. 3) euthanize your dog. :(

 

ETA: Now this is one area where I DO NOT believe there are parallels! Dogs may be moral creatures, but they are animals. I don't think physical punishment would be an effective tool against childhood aggression. I have also never yelled at my kids in a deep, growling voice nor snarled. This is the point where I'd agree that a dog is a dog, and a child a child.

 

I should snarl at my son next time he does something wrong and see if it works.

[Ariston]

Also, as an actual technique, "outlasting" is probably the best. The idea is that there is NO OTHER OPTION than what I said. Life ends until you do what I say, and you will do what I say. Things like punishment give the child an option..it is "do this or that happens". Outlasting takes away the choice. It is just "do this."

 

Yes, this is exactly what I need to figure out. That was a real eye opener when I read that one book I keep mentioning that I can't remember and it made perfect sense to me (as a dog trainer:tongue_smilie:)...why the heck am I giving them the option of compliance or consequence? Compliance should be the only option. The problem I'm having is that parenting is a 24 hour job. (OK, 16 hour...) and I find this level of focus exhausting.

 

Do I need to just focus on this for one or two weeks? And then I can drop back to maintenance? My son is not the problem so much as my daughter....she has a way of sort of lulling you into not paying attention, and then drifting off and doing her own thing. Its a gift, really...

[ktgrok]

Oh no, is this really true? am I doomed?!

 

I don't know exactly how you'd define 'hit'. I'd beat a very aggressive dog within an inch of his life, if that's what you mean. A 'regular' dog who is merely experimenting with aggression (i.e. growling over food) I'd bop on the muzzle...sort of like a punch but from top down. I would not hit a dog for things other than aggression.

 

Wow. Ok....would you do this no matter why the dog is growling? Would you care why the dog is growling? Would you hit a dog that was fearful and growling to protect it self? Would you expect hitting a scared dog to make the dog less scared? Would you do this if you knew of any other way to fix the aggression?

 

Would you hit a kid for disobeying no matter why they disobeyed? What if it was out of fear? Would you take the time to find out? Again, problems with this style of "training".

 

Me, I don't start a fight I could lose. Dogs have the ability to kill us, easily, if they want to. But they choose not to. A dog chooses every day not to maim me with his teeth. I should return the favor by not hitting it on the snout. To do otherwise seems sad, unfair, and honestly kind of stupid.....or at the least dangerous. What happens if you hit the dog on the muzzle and he decides that you started it, but he is going to end it? Perhaps my feelings on this are tempered by a lot of experience with rehabbing aggressive dogs. Big ones. Getting physical is never on the agenda. (and my own personal aggression rehab dog is currently curled up next to my bed. )

[Farrar]

I will try to give you my quick psych profile:

I was raised in a liberal, permissive household. We were polite, well behaved children. We had an affectionate and loving relationship. I never backtalked or was sassy, but on a deeper level, obedience and respect was missing.

 

I hate to be flip... but does this just mean you thought for yourself? That you were human and didn't mindlessly obey? And you're unhappy with that? You wish you had questioned your parents and thought for yourself less? Or are you just re-evaluating all this through the lens of having young kids who are a handful?

 

I find *frequent* spanking to be abusive. I am not a person who believes all spanking is abusive.

 

But spanking for every issue is restricted, myopic parenting.

 

:iagree:

[Aquinas Academy]

Yes, I achieved obedience. I did it by never expecting it, and never wanting it. I don't want obedient children. I want thinking children, questioning children, children who will challenge blind authority and exercise their own decision making powers. Obedient children grow up to be either rebellious teens / adults, or obedient adults. Neither is my goal, as neither characterises happy, productive, creative, members of society.

 

For us, obedience is a by product of allowing "disobedience." My kids do what I tell them, not because they have to, and not because I 'told them so', but because they trust me.

 

It is very convenient when children do what is asked with great attitude, on the first request. However I'm happy when my children do what I ask them most of the time, mostly with a great attitude, and without power struggles. I'd rather have this, than blind obedience.

:iagree:Well said.

My children are lovely people who are usually cooperative and helpful. They also have times when they are extremely un-cooperative and, as frustrating as those times can be, I'd actually be far more worried if my kids were always perfectly obedient.

[ktgrok]

Yes, I know....these days the much more humane method is promoted: 1) separate your aggressive dog from all people if there is food around. 2) make a mistake; get your child bitten. 3) euthanize your dog. :(

 

 

Um, no. that is the avoidance method, or the management method. The more humane method is to actually figure out what the triggers are, and then desensitize the dog to those triggers. Eventually counter condition to the point that the dog goes from snarling at people that walk by the dog bowl to drooling and wagging his tail in joy when people walk by the food bowl. Yup, it is a LOT more work than just beating on the dog. Works better too :)

 

Fixing the problem, not punishing the symptom of the problem. Growling is a symptom. Being unhappy about people near the food bowl is the problem.

 

I've dealt with too many dogs that were "trained" to the point that they no longer growl to give warning...they just bite. Because they were trained not to growl, rather than trained to be happy about people near their bowl.

 

I also know kids that outwardly act obedient, but still are seething inside, like the dog, and like the dog will act out once they think they can get away with it.

Edited August 27, 2011 by ktgrok

[ktgrok]

Yes, this is exactly what I need to figure out. That was a real eye opener when I read that one book I keep mentioning that I can't remember and it made perfect sense to me (as a dog trainer:tongue_smilie:)...why the heck am I giving them the option of compliance or consequence? Compliance should be the only option. The problem I'm having is that parenting is a 24 hour job. (OK, 16 hour...) and I find this level of focus exhausting.

 

Do I need to just focus on this for one or two weeks? And then I can drop back to maintenance? My son is not the problem so much as my daughter....she has a way of sort of lulling you into not paying attention, and then drifting off and doing her own thing. Its a gift, really...

 

Yes, you just need to focus on this for a while. Tell your husband that dinner will be take out or sandwhiches if need be. Cleaning and chores go by the wayside if need be. Behavior issues take the forefront. But again, no hitting required. And again, hitting out of lazyness is not really justifiable, in my opinion. If you know a better way you are obligated to do the better way.

Edited August 27, 2011 by ktgrok