Is belief a choice?

[roxanne23]

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Edited January 4, 2023 by roxanne23

[Audrey]

Out of curiosity, what beliefs come with your current religion?

 

 

I have no religion. I am a Witch. Witchcraft is a practice, not a religion. You can be almost any religion (or none) and practice witchcraft. Now, there are many forms of witchcraft, but that's a fun google exercise and not really the point of this thread. ;)

Edited July 11, 2011 by Audrey

[JudyJudyJudy]

I grew up deep in the Bible Belt. As a child, I never knew anyone who didn't believe in the Christian god (or maybe I should say that I didn't know anyone who admitted that he/she didn't believe). Regardless, I remember being as young as three years old and not believing. It scared me tremendously because I had been taught the whole "fear God" stuff, but I simply didn't believe. I tried some childlike questioning to both my mother and my aunt, but none of their answers satisfied me.

 

Over the years, I tried really hard to believe. I attended Bible studies and Kingdom Hall with my Jehovah's Witness family and Southern Baptist churches with my Southern Baptist family, but none of it made a difference. I was pressured into getting "saved" and baptized in a Southern Baptist Church when I was 13; at that point, I hoped I would feel something, but it never happened. I even "rededicated" my life when I was 22, but I still didn't feel anything and still couldn't believe.

 

Finally, in my mid-20s I gave up on trying to believe. I have to say it was the best thing I could ever have done. I'm no longer living a life of misery from trying to be something I'm not and trying to believe something that I don't. The only "choice" I could have made in all this would have been to play the game and pretend to believe. I "chose" to quit playing that game.

 

I'm now content as an atheist—very content. I have no desire to believe at this point. My only desire now is for family and friends to accept me as I am instead of so many of them judging me because I don't share their beliefs.

[coffeefreak]

I believe it is a choice. I chose not to believe for a time and lived my life as a "non-believer" after being raised in a believing household. Then, I chose to return to the faith and, in turn to believe.

 

At the risk of this coming out wrong, here's why I think it's a choice. Many people believe Christianity is no different than mythology of old, and that the Bible is not true or infallible. There are many things in the Bible and in church doctrine that make Christianity hard to believe. That's exactly WHY I think it IS a choice. I scoffed at the Bible and felt that anyone that believed it to be true in every way was not thinking logically and suspending their version of reality. But, I don't believe that anymore. I am a Christian and I CHOOSE to believe in God even when I have evidence to the contrary. When there are things in the Bible I can't explain, I choose to leave that up to God and believe anyway. KWIM?

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

[Sputterduck]

I have no religion. I am a Witch. Witchcraft is a practice, not a religion. You can be almost any religion (or none) and practice witchcraft. Now, there are many forms of witchcraft, but that's a fun google exercise and not really the point of this thread. ;)

 

I am curious because that seems to include a "leap of faith" as well.

[Audrey]

I am curious because that seems to include a "leap of faith" as well.

 

 

Not at all. Witchcraft is primarily a practical application process. At least, mine is.

[trailofsparks]

I have often thought about this passage: "Therefore whoever confesses Me before men, him I will also confess before My Father who is in heaven. But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven." (Matt 10:32-33) This seems to say He will one day own those who now own Him. If we own Him, he will own us. . . . If we choose Him, He will choose us.

 

Old Testament clearly states, "Choose you this day whom you will serve. . . . But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." (Joshua, somewhere)

 

Definitely a choice. At the same time, I understand how voices of my past influence me even more than I realize! Over the last decade especially, I have fought to get out from "under" these voices that try to tell me who I am or who God is, etc. In fact, I choose not to go to church because it's "safer" for me now and maybe easier to have a more accurate view of who God is.

Edited July 11, 2011 by trailofsparks
bible reference - looked it up

[FrogMom5]

I choose faith, but I feel compelled to believe.

 

:iagree: If I correctly understand what you're saying here, then yes, I believe this way too. I can't not believe but I choose to have faith. God gives you the grace to know Him but you have to choose to accept Him.

 

I'm tired so I hope this makes sense.

Denise

[Sputterduck]

Not at all. Witchcraft is primarily a practical application process. At least, mine is.

 

Well, I don't know which brand of witch you are, but most varieties of modern witchcraft seem to include belief in a god and/or goddess. And, of course, crafting spells, well, most people would say that believing in spell craft is a leap of faith. It may not seem like a leap of faith to you and it may seem entirely practical fact, but my religion seems that way to me. I do believe in God, and it's not some vague leap of faith. It's from experience with Him.

[Audrey]

Well, I don't know which brand of witch you are, but most varieties of modern witchcraft seem to include belief in a god and/or goddess. And, of course, crafting spells, well, most people would say that believing in spell craft is a leap of faith. It may not seem like a leap of faith to you and it may seem entirely practical fact, but my religion seems that way to me. I do believe in God, and it's not some vague leap of faith. It's from experience with Him.

 

 

The bolded is true, but not so in my case. I fully understand that many aspects of spellcraft can involve leaps of "faith" (although, I'm not sure you can call it faith if no gods are involved). If we use the term "magical thinking" instead, then perhaps that might apply to a few things I do, but then again, that is debatable and a matter of perspective.

 

FWIW, I appreciate your sincere questions. You are kind and honest, but I hope you understand that I don't feel comfortable discussing the details of my practices on this forum. :001_smile:

[Sputterduck]

The bolded is true, but not so in my case. I fully understand that many aspects of spellcraft can involve leaps of "faith" (although, I'm not sure you can call it faith if no gods are involved). If we use the term "magical thinking" instead, then perhaps that might apply to a few things I do, but then again, that is debatable and a matter of perspective.

 

FWIW, I appreciate your sincere questions. You are kind and honest, but I hope you understand that I don't feel comfortable discussing the details of my practices on this forum. :001_smile:

 

It's fine if you don't want to talk about it. I certainly don't mean to pry. Can't help the curiosity though. :tongue_smilie:

[keptwoman]

Christmas hymns are stunningly moving. I can feel it. I wished I believed it.

Aren't they though! The one thing I miss about church is the music.

 

That is similar to my experience. I don't think I ever "believed," although I tried to, and later tried to pretend that I did. My rational self, however, could not ignore facts over fiction, so to speak. I stopped pretending to believe because I no longer felt like being a liar about it just to please other people.

Yes, this. And content, way more content and at peace than I ever was when I was trying to be Christian.

 

I don't know. I can't adopt the Calvinist view (they wouldn't have me, anyway ;)) because I can't believe in a God so cruel as to choose some, but not others.

I find the Calvinistic view bizarre. Who would want to believe in so cruel a god, and if they have no choice with the belief, who would want to worship so cruel a god? It just doesn't line up with the whole god-as-love concept at all!

[Little Nyssa]

I really think it's both: believing is something that I think kind of HAPPENED to me, and one day I realized that I believed, and I then CHOSE to embrace it and go with it. (I'm a Christian.)

I chose for a while when I was a teen to be an atheist, but it did not sit right with me and I could not do it. It did not seem real.

I feel really sad for the people mentioned by a PP above, who believe in God because of fear of h*ll. The church fathers (I think this is St Basil, but I may be mistaken) say it's more important to love God WITHOUT regard for either Heaven or h*ll.

[Little Nyssa]

The other thing I wanted to say is, a lot of PPs have talked about honesty. I think it's best to be honest with God. I think someone who has a hard time believing and says so, is much better off than a hypocrite. So, for some people, leaving church may actually be a step toward coming back...after grappling with whatever the issues are for that person... being able to come back with sincerity. So leave the door open, because you never know what is going to happen on the rest of life's journey...:001_smile:

 

(Nyssa descending from the soapbox now, or rather pulpit!)

[simka2]

I really think it's both: believing is something that I think kind of HAPPENED to me, and one day I realized that I believed, and I then CHOSE to embrace it and go with it. (I'm a Christian.)

I chose for a while when I was a teen to be an atheist, but it did not sit right with me and I could not do it. It did not seem real.

I feel really sad for the people mentioned by a PP above, who believe in God because of fear of h*ll. The church fathers (I think this is St Basil, but I may be mistaken) say it's more important to love God WITHOUT regard for either Heaven or h*ll.

 

I like that! I was raised in an Atheist/Agnostic home. One that encouraged me to find a spiritual path if that was what I wanted, but to just be wary of radical "anything."

 

I chose to be an atheist. Then I had a "spiritual experience" (not a choice)which led me to pick a denomination that was radical :tongue_smilie:(a choice). The religous wing I was in failed me, but I couldn't forget the very real spiritual experience. So, I was led back to square one. A belief in God (and in my case the experience was directly linked with Jesus so my choices were a bit limited:D) but needing to choose a Christian branch. The process became so discouraging for awhile that I did set down my faith for a season.

 

In that time, I learned that "I" need a system in which to practice or

live out" my faith. I was just as miserable believing in God without a religious path...as I was not believing in God at all.

 

And as far as society goes, I think it can be just as difficult to not believe in the right kind of God/Christian sect, as it is not to at all.

[Ester Maria]

I think it is both, based on whom you ask.

 

I have known very religious people who openly admitted they made a choice. One of them pointed out to me that they subscribed "to the whole system" and a principle to believe in God was also a part of the system, but to subscribe there in the first place takes a decision, in spite of the fact one has other perspectives (such as a more scientific and deductive approach to the world) at their disposal. From that perspective, yes, belief would essentially be a choice first and then a sort of framework reality second.

 

On the other hand, I have known very religious people who swear by it not being a choice, by it being a reality they feel they need to conform to and something stronger than them - both those who believe it is a universal feeling but some of us are in denial of it, as well as those who felt that belief was in itself a divine gift not extended to everyone.

 

Personally, I have never believed, except in a way you would call utter heresy, so it is not applicable. I am not sure I "chose" not to believe, I felt the world was better explained through scientific models and as a principle I preferred evidence-based and deductive reasoning about the world that to deriving my worldview from a text or a preestablished dogma. As far as ethics is concerned, that is a bit more difficult - essentially I consider moral values to be fundamentally subjective, even though I greatly dislike the repercussions of that way of thinking and the dangers of "relativizing" some things there.

 

In my heretic mind, though, that is not inherently incompatible with not believing or not adhering to a religious system :tongue_smilie:, but then again, it is a heretic mind LOL.

[YLVD]

My dh is an atheist and has told me numerous times he wishes he believed in God. He reads the Bible to our dds, prays with them and goes to church with us - but he doesn't believe. I don't remember making a "choice" to believe in God, I just do.

 

As an atheist, I have the same feeling as your husband. I don't believe, can't believe. It just is not there. I believe that others do believe and it's something that I've never experienced.

[twoforjoy]

I think it really depends on the person.

 

For me, belief is or at least can be a choice. I have very little certainty about most things. And, I'm okay with that. I'm the kind of person who is okay with not knowing, but still making the decision to throw myself into something knowing full well I could be wrong. I don't know if there's a God. I lean toward there being one, but I don't know and I accept that I don't know. I made and continue to make the choice to have faith, because to me, it makes the most sense of the world and of my experience in it, and because there are versions of the Christian story that I think are beautiful and inspiring and worth giving myself over to (I'm sure there are versions of other religion's stories that are also beautiful and inspiring and worth giving oneself over to, and if I lived in a culture where those stories were predominant, the choice I made would probably be different). I'm okay with the possibility that I'm wrong.

 

Other people, both atheists and religious people, don't seem to have a choice. They believe because they must, or they don't believe because they can't. And if that's the case for them, then I trust that's the case and it isn't a matter of choice, even if it's not my experience.

[Heather in Neverland]

I find the Calvinistic view bizarre. Who would want to believe in so cruel a god, and if they have no choice with the belief, who would want to worship so cruel a god? It just doesn't line up with the whole god-as-love concept at all!

 

As a Calvinist, I actually don't know any calvinists who believe in a cruel God. We consider him to be quite merciful, really. But perhaps your experience with calvinists is different?

[Heather in Neverland]

No, belief in a deity is not a choice. Some people are born unable to give themselves over to magical thinking even if they wished to do so because of some sort of perceived peace or joy.

 

??? So it's genetic?

[Hunter's Moon]

??? So it's genetic?

 

I think they mean it is they way they're wired, not genetics.

[Heather in Neverland]

I think they mean it is they way they're wired, not genetics.

 

Isn't that the same thing?

[Hunter's Moon]

Isn't that the same thing?

 

I'd say that's the same thing.

 

Not IMO.

 

When I say "wired", I mean how they approach situations that require logic or thinking beyond their own beliefs.

 

No one in my family approaches situations the same way.

 

ETA: Now if there is evidence to show that the way our brains work is genetic, then I sound like an idiot because I didn't actually research this, just my opinion :tongue_smilie:

[Hunter's Moon]

That's still genetics (chemistry, biology) IMO. But then we'd have to get into a debate about whether or not there is such a thing as something outside our own physical body when it comes to thought (I don't think there is). I know some people think there is.

 

I just never really thought of the brain as genetic. My mother inherited dementia from her mother, and my grandmother from her mother. And I'm sure I will too, because it runs on both my maternal and paternal side.

 

But, my mother doesn't think like my grandmother did or any of her siblings. My father doesn't think like any of his family. My sister and I certainly don't think anything like each other, nor do we think like anyone in our immediate family.

 

There's even studies that show IQ cannot be linked to inheritance because environment plays a bigger role.

 

But, I'm derailing this thread :tongue_smilie:

Edited July 11, 2011 by BeatleMania

[asta]

Aren't you making a choice to believe something doesn't exist or does exist? Yes, I believe that if you aren't choosing God then you are choosing something else whatever that may be. I don't try and force my beliefs on anyone else, I try to explain them. I come from a family who worshiped Satan and they CHOSE to do that and CHOSE not to believe in God. I CHOSE when I was 16 to believe in God. Of course this is just my opinion.

 

That is funny. Not in a "ha ha" kind of way. Lucifer is just a fallen angel of God.

 

How can someone choose not to believe in God but believe in Lucifer? It isn't logical.

 

 

asta

[Hunter's Moon]

That is funny. Not in a "ha ha" kind of way. Lucifer is just a fallen angel of God.

 

How can someone choose not to believe in God but believe in Lucifer? It isn't logical.

 

 

asta

 

I never quite understood that, either.

 

I do know of some forms of satanists who choose to sympathize with Lucifer even though they believe both God and Lucifer exist.

 

I'm not saying that is the case with Mosiacmind's family though.

[keptwoman]

As a Calvinist, I actually don't know any calvinists who believe in a cruel God. We consider him to be quite merciful, really. But perhaps your experience with calvinists is different?

 

I guess it depends on your definition of cruel. A god who chooses some and not others (as per your post)? Well I think that is cruel. Now to be fair, I assume the non chosen are doomed to hell, so that's where I'm coming from. If I am wrong and they are not headed for eternal ****ation, well then I take back what I said. Otherwise, yes, IMO it's a cruel god.

Edited July 11, 2011 by keptwoman

[asta]

??? So it's genetic?

 

Geneticist claims to have found ‘God gene’ in humans

 

An American molecular geneticist has concluded after comparing more than 2,000 DNA samples that a person’s capacity to believe in God is linked to brain chemicals.

 

His findings have been criticized by leading clerics, who challenge the existence of a “God gene†and say the research undermines a fundamental tenet of faith — that spiritual enlightenment is achieved through divine transformation rather than the brain’s electrical impulses.

 

Dean Hamer, the director of the Gene Structure and Regulation Unit at the National Cancer Institute in Bethesda, asked volunteers 226 questions in order to determine how spiritually connected they felt to the universe.

 

The higher their score, the greater the person’s ability to believe in a greater spiritual force and, Mr. Hamer found, the more likely they were to share the gene VMAT2.

 

Studies on twins showed that those with this gene, a vesicular monoamine transporter that regulates the flow of mood-altering chemicals in the brain, were more likely to develop a spiritual belief.

 

Growing up in a religious environment was said to have little effect on belief.

[asta]

Its a tricky area because for many, faith in the unseen is a deep part of their experience of their spirituality and belief is irrelevant, because of their faith AND their experience.

 

I don't think you can choose to believe something that all your rational reasoning AND experience tell you is not true or existing. You can keep an open mind and choose to not dismiss it as impossible- but you can't make yourself believe it. I don't think you can choose to believe in a Christian God, and believe the Bible is literally true, if your experience and rational mind tell you otherwise. I know I don't believe in Christianity as a religion because it involves too much blind belief, and I just can't believe it. I don't even know if Jesus existed. But I can still appreciate the essential messages- the same as I can appreciate the central messages of any other religion I also don't believe in.

 

I think though that many jump to taking on many beliefs because of an experience. So to me, the energy phenomenon of the Christian laying on of hands or speaking in tongues or all sorts of things like that....are real. Same with prayer- its very real to me. However, I don't personally then put those experiences in a Christian context because I have other contexts to put them in- but I can see that the Christian context, which involves a whole lot of beliefs, is how Christians put those things.

 

In other words, just because I pray to God (any God of my choosing according to be upbringing or culture, most likely), AND my prayers are answered, or even if I see visions....doesn't make the WHOLE of that religious context valid or true. I don't jump to that and believe the whole Bible just because it has some beautiful wisdom in it that I have checked out and found to be true or valid.

 

These issues are too deep and complex to be dismissed one way or the other. No, I don't think you can make or choose to believe something you don't believe in. But I think you do believe in something...even if you don't believe in, for example, a Christian God...and it's worth continually examining ALL your beliefs, all the way through, to check their soundness, rather than stopping at dismissing religious dogma. Many westerners have dismissed the whole of natural medicine, for example, because of science- and also all of religion- because of science. So, in effect, they just now believe in science. Science is the new God, the new Truth. While ultimately its intention is to find truth it is so one sided, so left brained...so not inclusive of the mystery of life and the unseen- it cannot tell you the whole truth. Religion is the other side. It is possible to be inclusive of both and not get stuck in dogmatic beliefs either way.

 

I have been examining ALL my beliefs, to the best of my capacity, since I was a child. I was always interested in the essence of all religions rather than taking on beliefs. Beliefs make us feel secure but I would rather ultimately know the truth and be secure in that, even if its uncomfortable.

 

I always like your writings, Peela.

 

 

a

[Hunter's Moon]

Genetics is complex enough to explain why traits vary within families. I don't say there is the "god belief gene" and it will be passed down automatically to someone. I'm saying there may be some wiring differences in the brain (which boils down to chemistry which is affected by genetics AND environmental factors which are also chemical in nature).

 

I don't think we are really seeing this differently. You seem to see it from a philosophical angle and I'm thinking science.

 

Religious belief and practice does run in families. Does this mean everyone turns out exactly the same? No.

 

I believe IQ scores can be affected by environment, but it has always been my understanding that that is exactly what isn't the point of IQ. It's just very difficult to separate out what is raw intellectual propensity from what was learned in a given environment.

 

After I posted that, I realized environment does change how our brains work, but that environment means who raised us. For most people, that is our biological families.

 

I guess I'm thinking more along the lines of, we may inherit certain genes from our parents, but the way our body applies those genes is different. If that makes any sense at all.

[Lady Florida.]

I come from a family who worshiped Satan and they CHOSE to do that and CHOSE not to believe in God. I CHOSE when I was 16 to believe in God. Of course this is just my opinion.

 

Lucifer is just a fallen angel of God.

 

How can someone choose not to believe in God but believe in Lucifer? It isn't logical.

 

 

asta

 

I don't get that either. You can believe that Satan is more powerful/important/worthy of worship, but if you believe in Satan then you must believe the Christian God is real.

Edited July 11, 2011 by floridamom

[Jenny in Atl]

I come from a family who worshiped Satan and they CHOSE to do that and CHOSE not to believe in God. I CHOSE when I was 16 to believe in God. Of course this is just my opinion.

 

How does one believe in satan but not god, in the Xtian tradition?

[SailorMom]

One of the reasons I am a deist is because I have been able to rationally believe in God with no reliance on revelation, scriptures, prophets, miracles, etc.

 

If the only choice to believe in a higher power was thorugh dogmatism or revealed religion - I would have probably conciously chosen atheism.

 

I am very spiritual, and feel that there is a higher power out there that we are all a part of, but personally do not feel the need for the human construct of "religion" for my beliefs.

 

I went through a rough period, feeling that I didn't believe in "God" becuase I didn't believe in any of the theology I had been raised with... Turns out I just don't believe in that stuff :)

 

ETA: one of my issues with most religious faith that I have been exposed to is the tendency to give "God" human needs, emotions, reactions, etc... (for example, the need for us to glorify him, praise him, etc.) I have always felt that to be,,,, well, wrong.

Edited July 11, 2011 by SailorMom

[Ipsey]

Yes and no. Often the first few steps are a choice. After you've had enough experience with God, it is no longer a choice. You might as well tell me that my own child doesn't exist if you are going to tell me that God doesn't exist.

 

I would have said so at one time too, as a serious Christian. Now, as an atheist, I see how this was a false equivalence argument. There is a big difference between believing in the existence of Allah, Jehovah, Zeus, etc. and believing in a specific person. If you ask 100 Americans who Tom Cruise is, particularly people who know him well, they'll give you the same answer. If you ask 100 Americans who God is, and people who claim to know it well. . . .

[Ipsey]

Aren't they though! The one thing I miss about church is the music.

 

 

Yes, this. And content, way more content and at peace than I ever was when I was trying to be Christian.

 

 

I find the Calvinistic view bizarre. Who would want to believe in so cruel a god, and if they have no choice with the belief, who would want to worship so cruel a god? It just doesn't line up with the whole god-as-love concept at all!

 

I think it was going the Calvinist route that began my falling away from Jesus/God worship.

 

There's no question in Calvinism as to why "God allows something to happen". He causes all things. All things.

 

Though it was another couple of years before I stopped believing in Jesus and God, I think this is where the real challenge began for me.

[texasmama]

I guess it depends on your definition of cruel. A god who chooses some and not others (as per your post)? Well I think that is cruel. Now to be fair, I assume the non chosen are doomed to hell, so that's where I'm coming from. If I am wrong and they are not headed for eternal ****ation, well then I take back what I said. Otherwise, yes, IMO it's a cruel god.

 

Christian, non Calvinist here, and while I won't go so far as to call God "cruel" if He works in a way in which I don't understand, the tenets of Calvanism never resonated with me, even when I belonged to a very Calvinistic church. I have made the leap of faith in many other ways to be Christian, but I never could make the one to be Calvinist.

 

I now belong to a church with much less doctrine that the churches I have belonged to in the past, which works better for me. Even then, I hear things that I just don't believe, mostly because they are filtered through my own life experience, not because they might not be "true". To live inside my own brain, I have had to accept that there are many things I will not understand in this life. In the next, I believe it will be irrelevant. Understanding is no longer a goal for me, but it took a lot of years to arrive at that place.

 

I have made the trip around many of the mainline Prostestant denominations and have settled into a nondenominational place, which has its drawbacks as well. I almost bought a relgious candle at the grocery store the other day even though I am not entirely clear what lighting one represents. Lacking in the Protestant denominations has been some of the liturgy which seems to provide a comfort to my Catholic friends.

 

In a very real sense, my search continues. But I always hold to the basic tenets of Christianity as I do it. Although I stepped away for a time in college (as a conscious choice to search out what I believed rather than what I had been taught to believe), I have always returned. I have felt and feel pursued, as a lover, by God/Christ. I believe I will always return to that.

 

(I'm sure some of that is relevant to this discussion.:001_smile:)

[asta]

 

ETA: one of my issues with most religious faith that I have been exposed to is the tendency to give "God" human needs, emotions, reactions, etc... (for example, the need for us to glorify him, praise him, etc.) I have always felt that to be,,,, well, wrong.

 

I have always been irritated by that. And it bleeds over into all sorts of other areas as well.

 

Once it is decided that "God" is "human as we know it", then it is so much easier to ascribe all the other human constructs (the 24 hour day, the 7 day week construct [time]; the "loving vs cruel" creator [emotion]; the whole "I need this, surely he'll hear me and take care of it" thing [need] - like you said).

 

I think what trips people up in Christianity (but not other religions) is Jesus. I think that people misinterpret God being on earth in human form as God being human. It's like they can't wrap their minds around the idea of something so big that it could take whatever form it wanted to get its point across: a cow, a universe, a person, a quark. (I'm purposely avoiding the concept of the trinity because it is a whole other conversation that only the Catholics seem to 'get' anyway...)

 

Something so big that it just IS. What is the quote? Who are you? I AM. I think the idea of the divine being a concept (that is the only way I know to describe it in human terms) terrifies people.

 

This actually fits right into the other thread on SOFs: many people are afraid of "other". A divine that couldn't be somehow pictured (all of those handy medieval portraits), described (there is a big book, but most people don't notice that it doesn't have any descriptions...), or easily pigeon-holed by someone trustworthy (thank GOODNESS there are all of these preachers running about to tell everyone what God looks like and what he feels!) would be... what? Scary? Ineffectual? Reserved only for the really religious?

 

I say "pah".

 

Religion, belief and faith are 3 separate entities. The first is man made - external; an effort to make order out of chaos. The second follows the first; believing that a given set of rules will bring about said order. The third is completely different and independent.

 

Faith is internal. It is where one's consciousness goes in one's darkest hour, and pulls one from the ragged cliff of the abyss. It is where the ability to stay awake one more hour comes from when a baby's breathing is shallow. It is that gentle calm that descends when telling a dying person that no, really, everything will be fine.

 

Faith isn't prayer. It isn't specific. It just IS. And you know if it's there, and you know if it's not. And if you're questioning it, well, I can't help ya.

 

 

a

[Mosaicmind]

That is funny. Not in a "ha ha" kind of way. Lucifer is just a fallen angel of God.

 

How can someone choose not to believe in God but believe in Lucifer? It isn't logical.

 

 

asta

 

 

Sorry, I was rushed in my response and I edited my post. yes, they believe in God---but their view of him is not a healthy one and not the one I know and love now. I was raised to believe that the God they believe in hates me and was sending me to h*ll. Sorry for the post confusion.

[Plaid Dad]

No, I don't think it's a choice. I didn't decide that I was no longer going to believe in god. As I started reading and thinking and researching, I was simply unable to believe any longer, even though at first I tried to continue believing. Once I completely gave up the idea of a supernatural being I could no longer go back. And unlike some, I don't mind. I no longer wish I could believe, and am quite content with the idea that there are no gods.

 

This is my experience as well.

 

I have practiced many religious traditions in my life. In every case, I felt as if I had to studiously ignore certain aspects of reality in order to maintain my beliefs. At a certain point, I chose not to do that anymore, but to examine the world from as neutral a position as I could. The result was that I could no longer believe in the supernatural; the cognitive dissonance was too great.

 

I see belief in the supernatural as a function of our biology, specifically the way our brain tends to create patterns and attribute agency to phenomena in our environment. Michael Shermer has an excellent book on this: The Believing Brain. He deals with subjects other than religious belief but explains, in detail, how our brains attempt to order sensory input to make sense of the world. It's a fascinating and enlightening read.

[mirandahoops]

I do believe that initially, religious belief is a choice. Faith comes in making the choice, and, later, when doubt sets in. Very often, it seems that belief in God grows over time to become a relationship-one that is active. At times when I have had doubts about the reality of any deity, including Christ, after spending time with God and telling all my fears and doubts, something invariably will happen in which God very clearly announces his presence. Some people may call these coincidences, but they have been far too numerous for that!

:iagree:

I believe it is a choice. I chose not to believe for a time and lived my life as a "non-believer" after being raised in a believing household. Then, I chose to return to the faith and, in turn to believe.

 

At the risk of this coming out wrong, here's why I think it's a choice. Many people believe Christianity is no different than mythology of old, and that the Bible is not true or infallible. There are many things in the Bible and in church doctrine that make Christianity hard to believe. That's exactly WHY I think it IS a choice. I scoffed at the Bible and felt that anyone that believed it to be true in every way was not thinking logically and suspending their version of reality. But, I don't believe that anymore. I am a Christian and I CHOOSE to believe in God even when I have evidence to the contrary. When there are things in the Bible I can't explain, I choose to leave that up to God and believe anyway. KWIM?

 

Blessings!

Dorinda

 

:iagree:

I think faith is definitely a choice. That is the very definition of faith: belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

I choose to put my faith, my trust, and my hope in the Truth. Even though it is above and beyond my understanding. I don't have any evidence whatsoever that goes against what the Bible says, because I CHOOSE to reject anything that goes against it.

 

It's like an old saying that my grandma had in her house.

"God said it. I believe it. That settles it."

[Lady Florida.]

I kind of went through that too. I wondered if it was just the religious teachings that didn't make sense. So I figured I could just believe there was a god-like thing out there. After awhile that didn't quite make sense to me either.

 

I went through that too. That's what I think a lot of people don't understand. They don't realize that most of us worked our way through a number of levels of belief. We didn't just wake up one morning and say, "I don't believe anymore". Well, maybe some did, but for the most part it was a transformation rather than a sudden change. I shed, for lack of a better term, many levels of belief before I let go completely. I've read many deconversion stories, and learned that others went through a similar thing.

 

At each level, I chose to try and believe, but I didn't choose to stop believing. Hmm. As I'm typing this I'm wondering if I should change my original answer. Can belief be a choice but unbelief not be? Does that make sense to anyone?

[Night Elf]

As a Calvinist, I actually don't know any calvinists who believe in a cruel God. We consider him to be quite merciful, really. But perhaps your experience with calvinists is different?

 

Oh my, I can't believe I'm posting this, but I'm going to anyway because I am absolutely positive there must be at least one other person reading this thread who reacted the same way I did, so I'm going to be a voice for others.

 

I wasn't the one who posted about God bring cruel, but I must admit that when I read your note about how God picks and chooses people, my heart sank. And having others suggest not to give up hope because it will happen to me someday seems absolutely ludicrous. When a person is crying out for belief, faith, love, and acceptance, it seems downright cruel to ignore them. I wouldn't expect that from a human. Why on earth would I accept that from a supposedly merciful deity? I hate to bring people down but this just made me cry. Really, not just feeling like crying but real actual tears. This hurts more than just thinking he doesn't exist. This isn't general. This is personal. It's been haunting me for 2 days since you posted it.

 

I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm sharing my feelings so that you may know how this type of belief can come across to others and how it can actually push people away. I don't usually like the pushy evangelistic approach, but at least that approach shares the message that God is ready when you are. That seems better than saying that God doesn't want you yet but maybe he will some day, and that I should be gratefully waiting to be deemed good enough.

[lea1]

I do believe that to believe in Jesus Christ, or not to believe, is a choice. There is a lot of information available for anyone who is seeking to understand more so they can make a well informed decision.

 

I would suggest reading some of Josh McDowell's many books on the topic. I have heard him speak and he had some very interesting information. He was not a believer and, in the process of writing his Thesis about the topic and after much research, ended up convincing himself otherwise with the information he uncovered. A couple of books he has written: Evidence that Demands a Verdict and A Ready Defense, and there are many others.

 

The Bible says that if we seek Him, we will find Him.

[Orthodox6]

God exists whether or not I choose to believe it. His existence could be termed "an axiom."

 

A philosophical system could be constructed upon the "counter-axiom" that God does not exist.

 

. . . yet to make use of the concept at all is to grant Him existence, even if only hypothetical.

 

At any rate, I accept the axiom that God exists and is greater than the constraints and limits of my mind's ability to understand Him.

 

What I believe about God was a choice. In my own case, my free-will choice was to believe what He has revealed about Himself through the channels which provided the greatest degree of internal consistency and probability of being true. (Again, I stood firmly upon the axiom that God is not a construct of the human mind or spirit, because that would make God a created being and "lesser" than me.)

 

These are very difficult questions, and I respect/admire individuals who take the time to work through the questions carefully and thoughtfully. Even if someone ends up with conclusions that I must call "wrong", I still respect serious-minded and sincere effort more than I do glib assumptions.

[Mallorie]

.

Edited July 13, 2011 by Mallorie

[wapiti]

What is the reasoning behind why people feel it is a choice? To me it's like not liking onions. I didn't choose to hate onions. I just hate onions.

 

I'll try an analogy, to see if it will help make my perspective clear. And I prefer to frame this in language of faith rather than belief, because belief tends to have more scientific/evidence-based connotations in my mind.

 

So here's my analogy: it's like love. Not the feeling (love the feeling would be romantic feelings, infatuation, etc.), but the decision. (see, all my parents' years in Marriage Encounter taught me something - "Love is not a feeling, it's a decision." Sorry, this brings back memories of my childhood :lol:. My mom taught me something after all ;)). Think about that, the love you have for your spouse: you have made a commitment to love them. You have decided to do so, even in bad times. Even in those moments when you may not feel that you like them, you still love them. Maybe that's easier to imagine with respect to your kids - you love them no matter what, even if you don't like them in a particular moment :lol:. Why? Because you have chosen to do so.

 

Maybe my attempted analogy will further confuse things, for those who don't see "love" my way. However, faith is a choice in much the same way. Clear as mud, I'm sure.

 

I posted this link further up thread, but it really might be helpful to read the Pope's speech on faith and reason from a few years ago. http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles6/BenedictHellenism.php

[Denise in Florida]

I went through that too. That's what I think a lot of people don't understand. They don't realize that most of us worked our way through a number of levels of belief. We didn't just wake up one morning and say, "I don't believe anymore". Well, maybe some did, but for the most part it was a transformation rather than a sudden change. I shed, for lack of a better term, many levels of belief before I let go completely. I've read many deconversion stories, and learned that others went through a similar thing.

 

At each level, I chose to try and believe, but I didn't choose to stop believing. Hmm. As I'm typing this I'm wondering if I should change my original answer. Can belief be a choice but unbelief not be? Does that make sense to anyone?

 

Good question.

 

I like your top paragraph, this describes some of my journey except that I ended in faith. It bugs me when people I meet (not this thread) assume I have unquestioning, unfounded faith, that I somehow was brainwashed or just followed my family like a sheep. I didn't. I thought a lot and I ended up chosing to believe. My belief was a concious choice not a blind feeling.

 

If belief is a choice I guess unbelief is also. hmmm? Either way it was something conciously done not just blind *following*. What I mean by that is those people who never question (the unexamined life) who just do what they always did (go to x church, vote for x party, live x type of life) because they always did before. kwim :001_huh:

[JudyJudyJudy]

Oh my, I can't believe I'm posting this, but I'm going to anyway because I am absolutely positive there must be at least one other person reading this thread who reacted the same way I did, so I'm going to be a voice for others.

 

I wasn't the one who posted about God bring cruel, but I must admit that when I read your note about how God picks and chooses people, my heart sank. And having others suggest not to give up hope because it will happen to me someday seems absolutely ludicrous. When a person is crying out for belief, faith, love, and acceptance, it seems downright cruel to ignore them. I wouldn't expect that from a human. Why on earth would I accept that from a supposedly merciful deity? I hate to bring people down but this just made me cry. Really, not just feeling like crying but real actual tears. This hurts more than just thinking he doesn't exist. This isn't general. This is personal. It's been haunting me for 2 days since you posted it.

 

I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm sharing my feelings so that you may know how this type of belief can come across to others and how it can actually push people away. I don't usually like the pushy evangelistic approach, but at least that approach shares the message that God is ready when you are. That seems better than saying that God doesn't want you yet but maybe he will some day, and that I should be gratefully waiting to be deemed good enough.

Beth, I read the post the same way you did. I used to cry over such things, too, but I was finally able to get past it and just be content with my lack of belief. I'm sorry you're hurting. :grouphug:

[Just Robyn]

For me, belief is not a choice. There are plenty of supernatural things I would really like to believe in. I just don't.

[Orthodox6]

I find the Calvinistic view bizarre. Who would want to believe in so cruel a god, and if they have no choice with the belief, who would want to worship so cruel a god? It just doesn't line up with the whole god-as-love concept at all!

 

I agree completely with those lines. This issue came up recently, when someone posted a link to an article about the Orthodox Christian teaching on salvation. I was raised with straightforward Calvinistic theology about salvation and had no idea on the planet what teachings predated it until I learned about EO theology regarding salvation. Although Calvinism is a carefully worked-out system, I was relieved beyond measure to be freed from it. If one accepts the Calvinistic schema, one also perceives God as loving and merciful. I think it important to point that out. The schema "works" if one lives inside of it completely. Not until I "stepped outside" of it and examined it through a different lens did I realize that there is an alternative that has been around from the beginning. Doing my best to say this clearly such that it makes sense to people unfamiliar with it.