s/o Have you challenged a book?

[twoforjoy]

But I think I will never agree that the selection of books for our public libraries is none of my affair. (Not that you're saying that; but it's the vibe I'm getting from some of the comments. Possibly unjustly.)

 

I don't think anybody's saying that. The issue is whether the concerns of what usually amounts to just a few people over a book that, in many cases, there is a demand for from other patrons, should be enough to have a book removed from the shelves.

 

I'd venture to guess that if you asked to have the world religions book taken off the shelves, and it was, there'd be little to no uproar, because that book probably is not in demand, and nobody would even notice. But, if you wanted to have the Bible (or Harry Potter, or The Catcher in the Rye, or Twilight) removed, then it would cause a stir, because people would be looking for those books and unable to access them.

 

So I guess the reason I don't find things like "Banned Book Week" problematic is because for a book to actually become well-known as a banned book, it has to be a book many people want in the first place. Otherwise nobody would care if it was banned/unavailable. So we're talking about books that are popular and that people want access to that they are being denied access to because of, in most cases, the efforts of a small handful of people (if not just one outraged individual), and not just about books that are deemed inappropriate for the library.

[stripe]

It's worth pointing out that libraries do select books. I myself know librarians who seem to select certain topics in greater proportion to their use. For example, two shelves of intimacy manuals, that never circulate, while never purchasing knitting books, which are in short supply. Anyhoo, I am not that happy that my library shelves kids' and adult non fiction together. This means marital (or not) manuals are right next to basic anatomy books. And vitriolic anti-religion books are next to introductory informational books for kids. I am not a fan of this.

 

That being said, I've never challenged books.

 

On the other hand, I regularly suggest books for purchase.

[NicAnn]

On the old board there were lots of moms who censored the Sister Wendy art book with a sharpie. Would you challenge that book? What about a children's book on an artist that contained a photo of a naked lady painting? I own books like this, I don't censor them. I take my kids to museums. I'm not saying someone else is wrong for not allowing their kids to read it, but I do think it would be wrong to decide what my kids should see. Just trying to see where people draw lines.

 

 

What I mean is, if there was a book in the children's section with a pornographic cover (not that there would be), I would ask for it to be moved. NOT removed, but moved to a different shelf. If it was art work or a something that's fine...but I've seen some covers with large breasted ladies wearing nothing but a thong (it was a comic), that was clearly meant to be sexual. Those should be kept up away from little eyes.

I for sure don't condone marking up books or censoring them...especially if they are at a public library.

[Violet Crown]

I don't think anybody's saying that. The issue is whether the concerns of what usually amounts to just a few people over a book that, in many cases, there is a demand for from other patrons, should be enough to have a book removed from the shelves.

But I think that mischaracterizes what was going on. First, I have no way of knowing how many people were demanding that book, if anyone; I guessed, however, that many people were demanding a book with neutral information about different religions. I have no way of knowing how many parents picked up the book, leafed through it, thought "garbage," and put it back, saying nothing because they can't imagine themselves ever criticizing something the public library has chosen. Nor did I demand it be removed from the shelves. I won't deny that I hoped it would be, and that a book superior in quality would replace it.

 

I'd venture to guess that if you asked to have the world religions book taken off the shelves, and it was, there'd be little to no uproar, because that book probably is not in demand, and nobody would even notice. But, if you wanted to have the Bible (or Harry Potter, or The Catcher in the Rye, or Twilight) removed, then it would cause a stir, because people would be looking for those books and unable to access them.

Agreed. But I think you think these things because we have a lot of information about (a) the quality of and (b) the demand for these books.

 

Think of it as efficiency of information. Given the most Solomonic process for choosing books for purchase, a library is going to have some stinkers slip through. I believe that's what happened with the book in question. Who, then, has the best information available for bringing this to the library system's attention? The patron. Who has the best information available for choosing a suitable replacement? The library. Someone already posted that their library solicits patron comments. Can the people who can't imagine criticizing a library purchase also not imagine using the comments sytem set up by the library itself for patrons to use? If you would use the latter, what is the distinction between that and doing it in person at the branch library?

 

So I guess the reason I don't find things like "Banned Book Week" problematic is because for a book to actually become well-known as a banned book, it has to be a book many people want in the first place. Otherwise nobody would care if it was banned/unavailable. So we're talking about books that are popular and that people want access to that they are being denied access to because of, in most cases, the efforts of a small handful of people (if not just one outraged individual), and not just about books that are deemed inappropriate for the library.

I agree with this. My objection was to openly promoting to children of all ages (in answer to a previous question, the display was in the entry to the children's section; our branch is very small, and every child goes through the same entry area to get to all ages of juvenile literature) books that parents had suggested were not appropriate for children of all ages. I notice many posters here have said they wouldn't ask for a book to be removed, but might ask for it to be put in a different section. I objected that books which had been shelved on the YA shelf, which young children don't pass through, were now in an area they did pass through, with a sign telling the children at large to read them.

[Little Nyssa]

Yes, I found a DVD on "Weather" that I thought would be educational. Lo and behold it was not about types of clouds, storms, etc, but when we watched it at home, instead it was about humans trying to affect/change weather and started off with a nice dramatic description of human sacrifice!!!

I told this to the librarian and she was very noncommittal.

In retrospect it is probably better to put it in writing, rather than just make a little comment. Next time I will do that.

 

 

Edited 10 minutes later: OK, I sent them an email. Let's see what happens.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Little Nyssa

[Violet Crown]

Yes, I found a DVD on "Weather" that I thought would be educational. Lo and behold it was not about types of clouds, storms, etc, but when we watched it at home, instead it was about humans trying to affect/change weather and started off with a nice dramatic description of human sacrifice!!!

I told this to the librarian and she was very noncommittal.

In retrospect it is probably better to put it in writing, rather than just make a little comment. Next time I will do that.

:iagree: I do like the idea of libraries soliciting citizen input on a website. Again, information efficiency; get all the comments and suggestions in one place, and let the library personnel who review and select books sort the wheat from the chaff in making purchasing/shelving decisions. No worries about whether you as a single individual are making a choice for lots of other people; no need for putting books on an alarmist "Challenged!" list just because in someone's opinion they are poor quality or inappropriate for a certain age.

 

As a famous protector of the First Amendment once said, the best cure for bad speech is more speech.

[Dmmetler]

Our branch library puts a sticker inside the cover of books that parents have said contain objectionable content with the information as to what the content is (for example, in an art book "photo of nude painting, p 9"). Harry Potter has a sticker stating "Magic portrayed positively" (or something like that).

 

I think it's a good compromise in a religiously conservative area. And a lot of moms in our homeschool group comment that those little labels get their older kids to read books they'd never read without a fuss normally. After all, if someone's MOM doesn't like it, it must be good, right??

[Crissy]

First, I have no way of knowing how many people were demanding that book, if anyone; I guessed, however, that many people were demanding a book with neutral information about different religions. I have no way of knowing how many parents picked up the book, leafed through it, thought "garbage," and put it back, saying nothing because they can't imagine themselves ever criticizing something the public library has chosen.

 

Some of us are coming at this from a slightly different perspective.

I don't put a book back on the shelf that I think is garbage only because I won't criticize some of my library's choices, rather I assume that although *I* think the book is garbage, it may just be exactly what someone else is looking for. It's not for me to decide whether or not my neighbor shares with her children that a particular religion is a cult (or whatever the controversial subject may be).

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Our branch library puts a sticker inside the cover of books that parents have said contain objectionable content with the information as to what the content is (for example, in an art book "photo of nude painting, p 9"). Harry Potter has a sticker stating "Magic portrayed positively" (or something like that).

 

I think it's a good compromise in a religiously conservative area. And a lot of moms in our homeschool group comment that those little labels get their older kids to read books they'd never read without a fuss normally. After all, if someone's MOM doesn't like it, it must be good, right??

 

This was actually how the school library at the Christian school founded by one of our churches handled things. The sticker would include the reason why the librarian chose to retain the book. When the librarian gave me a tour once, she pointed out several books with such bookplates, including one that made her chuckle, since the protest had been done by a young father who was then (at the time of the tour) the church's senior pastor.

[myfunnybunch]

Going back to the first post...I am confused, I think, about your expectations. After reading the entire thread, I am still not clear on your goal in making your objections known in the first place.

 

Because you felt that the subject matter of the religion book was skewed, did you expect that it be removed from the shelf and made unavailable to all patrons, even those for whom it represents their beliefs/bias? Or were you hoping that they'd order more religion books to provide more balance? Or are you objecting to the librarian's reaction?

 

I think you're certainly within your rights to object to a book. It might make a difference next time book purchasing time comes along. Finding out more about how the community can participate in the book selection process might be helpful so that you can have your say.

 

I think the librarian is certainly within her rights to feel frosty about your objection, though as a professional she should remain courteous, and probably shouldn't show it.

 

But simply because *you* object to a particular book doesn't mean it should be pulled from the shelves, does it? As a community member, you're certainly entitled to have an opinion and voice it. But your voice is not necessarily the voice of the entire community. This is where I am getting stuck on this whole issue, and maybe I am misunderstanding (I am not being rude or snarky, promise!): Do you really think you should be the one to decide what goes or stays on the shelves of the library, especially if your decision is based on guesses about what other members of your community want in their book selection? Because this isn't about just one book, it's about who gets to decide.

 

Cat

[TeacherZee]

For those of you who have made comments about miss shelving or out of date books I bring you

 

Awful Library Books

[Violet Crown]

Some of us are coming at this from a slightly different perspective.

I don't put a book back on the shelf that I think is garbage only because I won't criticize some of my library's choices, rather I assume that although *I* think the book is garbage, it may just be exactly what someone else is looking for. It's not for me to decide whether or not my neighbor shares with her children that a particular religion is a cult (or whatever the controversial subject may be).

I understand. This seems to be the core of our disagreement. I do think that it's for me--not me alone, but me as a contributing part of the community--to decide whether or not my community library shares with our community's children that a particular religion is a cult.

 

I think our disagreement stems from the different vantage points we're seeing the issue from. I do respect yours; I think that I just disagree in the end.

[arghmatey]

I have not and probably will not ever challenged a book.

 

ETA: ...in our library. I would, however, make a stink about a book such as the pedophilia book on Amazon a while back. I don't think my library would but it anyway.

[Violet Crown]

Going back to the first post...I am confused, I think, about your expectations. After reading the entire thread, I am still not clear on your goal in making your objections known in the first place.

 

Because you felt that the subject matter of the religion book was skewed, did you expect that it be removed from the shelf and made unavailable to all patrons, even those for whom it represents their beliefs/bias? Or were you hoping that they'd order more religion books to provide more balance? Or are you objecting to the librarian's reaction?

 

I didn't have any expectations. I believed (still do) that our public library has certain criteria for choosing what to put on the shelves, and that the book that was there violated the criteria I felt sure were already in place. Yes, terrible as it sounds, I would have liked it to "be removed from the shelf and made unavailable to all patrons," because it was taking up room that a quality book on the subject should have occupied: a quality book being defined as one that didn't represent anybody's bias at all in describing various religions (yes, I know that's strictly impossible, but you can at least get close to neutral). I would certainly hope it would be replaced--by a similar book from the main library, or a newly purchased book, or whatever the process is. I leave that to the library itself: all I can hope to do is provide the information that there has been (I think) an error in book selection.

 

I objected to the librarian's reaction because I went out of my way not to be coming across as saying "How can you have this garbage in here? I'm offended!" but as saying "I'm pretty sure this isn't what the APL wants as the only book a kid can use to find out about other people's religions." Basically, I objected to what seemed like a lack of distinction between patron feedback and patron offensensitivity.

 

I think you're certainly within your rights to object to a book. It might make a difference next time book purchasing time comes along. Finding out more about how the community can participate in the book selection process might be helpful so that you can have your say.

 

I think the librarian is certainly within her rights to feel frosty about your objection, though as a professional she should remain courteous, and probably shouldn't show it.

 

:confused: I never said she didn't have the right to feel frosty. I'm not even sure what that would mean. But I think she has the obligation to not resent patron input. The library exists to serve the community, not the community to serve the library.

 

But simply because *you* object to a particular book doesn't mean it should be pulled from the shelves, does it?

As a community member, you're certainly entitled to have an opinion and voice it. But your voice is not necessarily the voice of the entire community. This is where I am getting stuck on this whole issue, and maybe I am misunderstanding (I am not being rude or snarky, promise!): Do you really think you should be the one to decide what goes or stays on the shelves of the library, especially if your decision is based on guesses about what other members of your community want in their book selection? Because this isn't about just one book, it's about who gets to decide.

 

If you're getting that from my posts, I don't know what to say. I've gone out of my way to make clear that I don't think I should be the Empress of the Library who decides what gets chosen.

 

Do you think, that by virtue of saying anything, I have demanded that I am the voice of the entire community, who decides what goes and stays? I am a member of the community. My voice counts no more, and no less, than anybody else's. I am incapable of speaking for others; thus I speak for myself. Of course it's about who gets to decide; and I never said I did. But neither will I agree that therefore I have to sit down and shut up. The library gets to decide; but they need information in order to decide, and if nobody speaks up, they don't have that information. So maybe I'm the one person who says "I don't think this is a book that's suitable for the library," and a hundred people are saying "Please, do you have a book for children that explains why non-mainstream Christian churches are cults?" (I doubt that that's true; but as you say, that's just my guess about the community.) How does my being the one against one hundred make me "the one who decides what goes or stays"? :confused:

[Jen in PA]

I can't imagine challenging a book in either of the two library systems where we have cards. When one of the dc wants a book from the teen section I do look through it, but that is mostly so I am prepared for any questions they might have. I can't imagine trying to restrict what other people read, and I would hate to have anything pulled from the shelves that my dc might enjoy just because someone else has qualms about it.

[Violet Crown]

My apologies; I think I'm getting too heated about a thread which I started, and so obviously have only myself to blame. I did ask for other people's reactions, and just didn't expect to be in such a minority. Ah well! Thank you all for your thoughts. I've got a lot to chew on.

[Jen in PA]

My apologies; I think I'm getting too heated about a thread which I started, and so obviously have only myself to blame. I did ask for other people's reactions, and just didn't expect to be in such a minority. Ah well! Thank you all for your thoughts. I've got a lot to chew on.

 

:grouphug:

[myfunnybunch]

I'm not picking on you, but this is where I am genuinely confused. This:

Yes, terrible as it sounds, I would have liked it to "be removed from the shelf and made unavailable to all patrons,"

 

and this:

I've gone out of my way to make clear that I don't think I should be the Empress of the Library who decides what gets chosen.

 

don't match.

 

 

 

Do you think, that by virtue of saying anything, I have demanded that I am the voice of the entire community, who decides what goes and stays? I am a member of the community. My voice counts no more, and no less, than anybody else's. I am incapable of speaking for others; thus I speak for myself. Of course it's about who gets to decide; and I never said I did. But neither will I agree that therefore I have to sit down and shut up. The library gets to decide; but they need information in order to decide, and if nobody speaks up, they don't have that information. So maybe I'm the one person who says "I don't think this is a book that's suitable for the library," and a hundred people are saying "Please, do you have a book for children that explains why non-mainstream Christian churches are cults?" (I doubt that that's true; but as you say, that's just my guess about the community.) How does my being the one against one hundred make me "the one who decides what goes or stays"? :confused:

 

I really was genuinely asking whether you think the book should be removed because you objected. I'm sorry if I offended, it truly was not my intent. I certainly wasn't suggesting that you sit down and shut up, that you should not have objected, or that you should not have a voice. I may not agree with your perspective on the book, but I support your right to voice your opinion about it. I truly was asking about your expectation because I can't get a handle on what you're objecting to exactly.

 

If your goal was to let the library know how you, as a member of the community, feel about the book....you've done that.

 

You seem upset because they didn't remove the book upon your objection. If that's not the case, I have misunderstood.

 

I wonder if this can be turned into a positive by finding out how to become a part of the library's book selection committee and/or suggesting that they come up with a community input process by which patrons can voice objections or make suggestions?

 

Cat

[Violet Crown]

I'm not picking on you, but this is where I am genuinely confused. This:

 

 

and this:

 

 

don't match.

 

 

And I'm trying to explain why they do match. Think of it as saying "I think Obama should be President," and someone counters "So you think you should be the only one who decides who gets to be President, do you?"

 

Anyway I'm not offended, and I apologize for being ungracious. Please forgive me.

[Crissy]

And I'm trying to explain why they do match. Think of it as saying "I think Obama should be President," and someone counters "So you think you should be the only one who decides who gets to be President, do you?"

 

Anyway I'm not offended, and I apologize for being ungracious. Please forgive me.

 

I don't think you've been the least bit ungracious, Sharon. I think this has been an interesting conversation, and I'm glad to know more about your position. Please don't feel badly for brining it up.

[DarlaS]

But I don't think you actually believe this. If "they" (and maybe who "they" is is a significant question here) chose to purchase and stock only books published by (let's pick a scapegoat) the Church of Scientology for your town's public library, would you shrug and say they had a right to do that, and your only role is to examine what your child was checking out?

 

Maybe I'm just an inveterate lefty, but I think I'm as much a part of the community as "they," and I want the community as a whole to have input into what we as a community put in our community libraries. Not just the loudest individuals, not organized outsider campaigns, not the biggest private donors, but (somehow) all of us.

 

 

 

I do believe they can stock any BOOK they want. That includes entire sections of books of no interest to me, and they do. There are a great many books in any library I would find offensive, out of date, or just plain poor quality of literature.

 

This does not translate to meaning I'd be okay with them stocking only books on a specific topic or of interest to a certain group. It seems like quite leap to infer anything like that in what I said. :001_huh: I think you've taken the extreme example a little far.

[DarlaS]

For those of you who have made comments about miss shelving or out of date books I bring you

 

Awful Library Books

 

Hey, I think I've seen some of those at my library! :lol:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It's worth pointing out that libraries do select books. I myself know librarians who seem to select certain topics in greater proportion to their use. For example, two shelves of intimacy manuals, that never circulate, while never purchasing knitting books, which are in short supply. Anyhoo, I am not that happy that my library shelves kids' and adult non fiction together. This means marital (or not) manuals are right next to basic anatomy books. And vitriolic anti-religion books are next to introductory informational books for kids. I am not a fan of this.

 

That being said, I've never challenged books.

 

On the other hand, I regularly suggest books for purchase.

 

This is a new way of shelving to me. Our current library system does it, but I'd not seen it before.

 

I'm actually a fan for two reasons. It helps encourage my kids to "play up" in science and history. It lets English language learners find a book at the right level, where if the books were separate, they might not go into the children's section for non fiction.

 

But I can see where it might cause problems. Those you mentioned. Or, for example, poetry, where kid friendly selections are shelved next to heavy British Romantics or Alexander Pope (which I fear will make poetry even less enticing to the young).

 

I think in the situation given by the OP, I would have come back with some specific book suggestions as additional purchases.

[Violet Crown]

 

I think you've taken the extreme example a little far.

Probably so. I apologize.

[Heather in WI]

For those of you who have made comments about miss shelving or out of date books I bring you

 

Awful Library Books

 

:lol: That is hilarious!!!

[TravelingChris]

I have never objected to a book in the library though I know there are books there that are objectionable to me- things like non-fiction books that have wrong information or even dangerous recommendations. I guess I don't think I am the arbitrator of what should or shouldn't be in the library like that. I have recommended books to a library. Librarians have asked me for recommendations sometimes (not here, at our giant library system, but in much smaller libraries). But I have done what Sebastian said- requested a re-cataloging. However, none of those were done because of anything objectionable- they were simply miscataloged like a gardening book in the games section or a regular classic as a teen book (something like War and Peace, let's say).

 

If I found a book that I objected to being the only book on a subject and not being a good book on that subject, I would probably ask the librarian if I could donate money to buy another book on that subject and then would do that instead of demanding removal of the only book on a subject. Better that there be a second choice rather than no choice at all is probably a better way to get a librarian to agree.

[Spy Car]

No I have never challenged a book. It doesn't mean that is beyond the real of possibility, but not yet.

 

I have questioned the preponderance of (to me) unworthy "best sellers" of the Danielle Stelle variety that dominate the Fiction section and the lack of literature of true merit in the library holding. They say they are giving the people what they want, but I'm people too :D

 

Bill

[Crissy]

 

I have questioned the preponderance of (to me) unworthy "best sellers" of the Danielle Stelle variety that dominate the Fiction section and the lack of literature of true merit in the library holding. They say they are giving the people what they want, but I'm people too :D

 

Bill

 

The do carry that fish tale, too, don't they? :D

[Spy Car]

The do carry that fish tale, too, don't they? :D

 

One freaking copy. And that is the whole Melville collection :sad:

 

They say: "You can order books online", which is true, but I think part of the great thing about libraries is to wander the stacks and make great discoveries of works you didn't know existed--that's part of the fun and part of what makes libraries valuable IMO.

 

Bill

[Heather in WI]

I have questioned the preponderance of (to me) unworthy "best sellers" of the Danielle Stelle variety that dominate the Fiction section and the lack of literature of true merit in the library holding.

 

Oh my gosh, this drives me batty! We have two entire rows that solely consist of "romance" books and the entire DVD series of "The O.C." at our local library, yet I have to request many classic books that you'd think would be the mainstay of any library system through inter-library loan. It's enough to make me :willy_nilly:

[Jen in PA]

I think part of the great thing about libraries is to wander the stacks and make great discoveries of works you didn't know existed--that's part of the fun and part of what makes libraries valuable IMO.

 

Bill

 

I couldn't agree more. I love the online catalog, I love being able to place holds -- but wandering in the stacks is the best part by far. DH recently came across a book by Asimov on how to use slide rules up in the "closed" stacks! The librarians chuckled as we checked that one out!

[tomandlorih]

ETA: Well darn it.. This makes no sense without the quote she was referring to. LOL I just found the "Multi quote" button to late!

 

Anyhow, she was quoting another who said they would be more likely to complain about a non-fiction book with informational errors.. but it's not funny now..lol

 

Really? There are just so many of these, I don't know where you would start?

:iagree:& :lol:

Edited May 31, 2011 by tomandlorih
ETA cuz I'm a newbie and didn't know about the multi quote button.

[DarlaS]

Probably so. I apologize.

 

It's okay! I may have been a little vague.

 

And for what it's worth, if I found a book with outright inaccurate information in it like the one you describe, I would have said something--not asking them to remove it, just bringing it to their attention. (I would not expect them to do anything about it, but I would have anyway.) I've just never seen anything at our library that affected me that way.

 

I think the best plan to have a positive effect is to suggest books that you would like to see.

[Word Nerd]

I put an FYI/you-might-want-to-listen-to-this note on an audiobook of Arabian Nights that was shelved in the children's section—which the library I was returning it to wouldn't shelve even PG-rated movies in. (I was not familiar with Sir Richard Burton's not-for-kids version and was quite surprised when we started listening to it on a family road trip. :eek:) It was moved to the main area of the library with the other audiobooks for grown-ups. I don't think that was officially considered a challenge, but I sometimes wonder.

[Audrey]

Anyone else? Or am I the only one working to make sure we have a selection of "challenged books" each year?

 

 

I would love it if you were the only one. :glare:

[kewb]

I have yet to challenge a book in my library. However, my children's librarian totally rocks.

The banned books display is in the Young Adult section which is on a different level then the younger sets books. Although, I don't imagine I would object to it being in the children's section either. Then again, I lived through book banning in the schools where I grew up. I must go dig up my "I read a banned book" pin.

[mamachanse]

Just chiming in here to add a little information about book buying at libraries. My husband manages our biggest county library here in the Phoenix area and he rarely has a say as to which books to order. There are departments of people, normally called "collection development," who take care of the ordering. It was the same at the ASU library and at the city library I worked at. The exception is when there is a special allocation of funds, such as from the Friends of the Library, to purchase books.

 

Also, I did merchandising and displays at independent bookstores for over 10 years. When doing Banned displays, I did not choose books because they had rape scenes or other questionable plots to get people's undies in a twist. I picked books that I thought most people would think, 'why in the world is that banned?" That's the response we got from most people.