Case against voter id?

[TravelingChris]

I totally disagree that there is no voter fraud. Unfortunately there are a few reasons for not so many prosecutions. One- we don't know who did it. If someone goes and votes in your name, who were they? Two, in some cases, the people who win by voter fraud are the ones who will be investigating- hmm, how likely are they to do that??? Other cases, we know voter fraud happened- more voters voted than were registered, but again, which ones were the fraudulent ones and who did it?

 

I don't see the hardship of having an ID. You need ID for just about everything. You are supposed to have ID to register so why are you losing it when it is time to vote? Other than homeless, who are primarily mentally ill and probably only voting if someone is offering food, money or cigarettes for voting, the other large group of people who don't have IDs are active criminals. I am not concerned about disenfranchising gang members and armed robbers. They don't have IDs not because they don't have money but because they don't want to be easily identified. Fine, but then you can't vote. THey are also another group that I think is easily bribed to vote. FInally, I think some other procedure could be found for elderly of a certain age but there again, the ones in institutions are the ones who are most likely to have others vote their absentee ballot for them.

[vonfirmath]

ETA: I looked up voter registration requirements for TX. You have to fill out a voter registration application and mail it to the local county voter registrar. You can request a postage-paid application, but you have to fill out a form for that. I'm looking at this online - I don't know where you can find this info in the "real world." The application asks for ID/license number or the last 4 digits of your SSN, along with name, birthday, and address.

 

Libraries in TX have voter registration information.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

So, what does one have to do to get the voter registration card that one has to show at the polls? :001_huh:

 

I got mine when I changed my name (on that nifty state ID...required if one wants to prove age in order to buy age-restricted products, or to prove who you say you are if you fly, and if I recall correctly it's quite hard to get a job without one) and checked the box saying "update my voter registration."

 

It seems to me that a lot of the people mentioned in this thread as people who would have a hard time getting photo IDs would also have a hard time getting the voter registration card itself, which you *do* have to have to vote, AFAIK. Yet there *has* to be SOME way of at least trying to make sure that each person is only voting once...

 

(Side note: I find it rather annoying that one must present 3 types of ID to get a photo ID, and then one has to present that ID plus one of those other types of ID to do anything in the world. Shouldn't the one ID be enough? I guess this is to get away from fake IDs, but still. The passport is the one exception, and those aren't cheap.)

 

ETA: I looked up voter registration requirements for TX. You have to fill out a voter registration application and mail it to the local county voter registrar. You can request a postage-paid application, but you have to fill out a form for that. I'm looking at this online - I don't know where you can find this info in the "real world." The application asks for ID/license number or the last 4 digits of your SSN, along with name, birthday, and address.

 

I first registered to vote in Texas. I did it at the city offices (probably with the clerk of courts). I would have shown my birth certificate and maybe a driver's license, since that's all I had at the time.

 

I never voted in person in Texas, because I joined the military a few months later. The only in person voting I've done is in VA, where you did not have to show the actual voter registration card. It is registration card or other ID.

 

I agree that restrictions to the franchise ought not be based on race, income, gender or religion. But I don't think that it is unreasonable to expect that if voting is that important that it is worth expending some effort toward (registering ahead of time for example).

 

Personally, I'm bothered by the high incidents of military voters not getting their absentee ballots. (I requested in time and did not receive it at all in 1992. This was enough of an issue that our ship's voting officer (a collateral duty) was required to collect info from everyone on the ship on who had requested a ballot, from where and if they received it.) And FWIW, many military members enlist from rural, low income and even minority areas.

[In The Great White North]

Personally, I'm bothered by the high incidents of military voters not getting their absentee ballots. (I requested in time and did not receive it at all in 1992. This was enough of an issue that our ship's voting officer (a collateral duty) was required to collect info from everyone on the ship on who had requested a ballot, from where and if they received it.) And FWIW, many military members enlist from rural, low income and even minority areas.

 

I routinely received my absentee ballot in the mail after reading the results of the election in the paper. So did everyone else I knew in the military.

[ktgrok]

Before dh's grandfather died he was living in a nursing home. He was lucid enough to enjoy an occasional outing, but was struggling a lot physically and mentally.

 

He was a life long Republican voter. His daughter's husband "Ted" came to town to work on get out the vote programs for the Democratic party. From several states away. "Ted" took dh's grandfather to vote and was quite willing to help him cast his ballot. Later dh's grandfather told my mil that he'd voted, and that he was pretty sure he'd voted Republican, but he wasn't really sure because "Ted" had been helping.

 

So I guess that it was appealling enough for "Ted" to go to the effort of taking a 70 year old who had voted Republican since Eisenhower to the polls as part of his Democrat voter efforts.

 

DH's grandfather didn't live to vote in another presidential election. And what were those who suspected supposed to do? Request that charges be filed against a family member?

 

How would an ID help this?:confused:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

It may not be a wide issue. But in this case is was in fact an issue. One man, who had chosen a candidate, was taken to the polls by a volunteer from the other campaign. The voter later couldn't positively say who the ballot had actually been cast for.

 

Is there a big mobilization effort transport "elderly demented relatives"? Probably not. Did a volunteer for a campaign take advantage of someone who was a supporter of the other candidate. In this case, yes, I think they did. (And fwiw, this was discovered when the senior citizen's son arrived, as promised, to take him to vote for the candidate of his choice and found that someone else had already taken him - and probably punched the ballot for him to boot.)

 

My point is that it is inaccurate to say (as was stated in a different post) that there were only two dozen cases of voter fraud. That might be the number of convictions. But it doesn't reflect the irregularities that others here have mentioned.

 

It hardly seems appropriate to wave away account after account, then state that the lack of prosecuted cases means that there is no fraud.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

How would an ID help this?:confused:

 

Wasn't responding the the lack of ID, but to the statement that voter fraud's penalties makes it not worth the effort. In this case the fraud was in going beyond the limitations that someone "helping" a voter should abide by.

[ktgrok]

It may not be a wide issue. But in this case is was in fact an issue. One man, who had chosen a candidate, was taken to the polls by a volunteer from the other campaign. The voter later couldn't positively say who the ballot had actually been cast for.

 

Is there a big mobilization effort transport "elderly demented relatives"? Probably not. Did a volunteer for a campaign take advantage of someone who was a supporter of the other candidate. In this case, yes, I think they did. (And fwiw, this was discovered when the senior citizen's son arrived, as promised, to take him to vote for the candidate of his choice and found that someone else had already taken him - and probably punched the ballot for him to boot.)

 

My point is that it is inaccurate to say (as was stated in a different post) that there were only two dozen cases of voter fraud. That might be the number of convictions. But it doesn't reflect the irregularities that others here have mentioned.

 

It hardly seems appropriate to wave away account after account, then state that the lack of prosecuted cases means that there is no fraud.

This is coercion, not fraud. And would not be solved with an ID requirement.

[ktgrok]

My thought is yes, there is some amount of fraud maybe. Balance that against the people that won't be voting if we require IDs and it becomes obvious to me that the fraud is less of an issue than the disenfranchising of poor and rural voters.

 

Those who think "everyone has an ID" are lucky to live in such a nice world, but that isn't the reality for many many people. My BIL doesn't have one. He also doesn't have a checking account. He doesn't drive, and doesn't work. His mother died recently, and heaven knows where she kept their birth certificates, if she did. I doubt he has the foggiest idea how to find a certified copy of his birth certificate, and without it he can't get an ID. Not to mention he has no transportation to be hunting these things down. He has some developmental issues and emotional issues he is working through now that his mom is dead, she was very neglectful. But he should still be allowed to vote!

[ChrissySC]

Unfortunately, identity theft and fraud are reason enough for needing a formal identification.

 

The use is widespread. You need proof of identification to get food stamps, bank accounts, etc. You will have an ID card of some form or fashion usually issued from the DMV. How are you going to get hired for work without proof of who you are too? We have it anyway. It is used widely to prove that we are who we are.

 

I don't want turned away from voting because someone voted for me. Although this does not happen often, the possibility in itself is enough that I see nothing wrong with asking me who I am. Why is it such an issue to use it? I have read, but I find lots of discourse over the link between the payment for the proof of identity and poll taxes, but I fail to see why saying "yes I am me" with a card is such an issue.

 

As for the "tax", how is paying to prove who I am (to be issued the ID card) a tax? We pay the state (DMV) to verify that we are who we are. In return, they provide us with an ID which reinfoces that the proof exists. If a third-party company provided the same service and could issue the same credited "proof" of who I am, would there still be an issue? Would you rather bring your birth certificate and social security card to prove you are you? Again, these are cards we pay to have issued too.

 

Perhaps I am missing the link. I just don't understand why paying for one thing and using it for other purposes, like we do anyway, is such a big deal. I understand the difficulty with the elderly, but a picture ID does require a photo. I am sure that arrangements can be made. Chances are too, if you cannot be taken to to get your ID, you won't be going to vote either.....

[Caroline]

Would you rather bring your birth certificate and social security card to prove you are you? Again, these are cards we pay to have issued too.

 

 

 

It does not cost anything to get a Social Security Card, change your name on it, or get it replaced. The Social Security Card is free.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

The polling workers are not volunteers here. They are paid positions.

 

Do you have any idea what actions they can legally and/or actually take?

 

I can see if someone were clearly violating rules like using a camera inside the polling place, passing out literature within the buffer zone or behaving in a disruptive way, that they would step in. In fact I've seen them ask campaign volunteers to move farther away from the doors to be beyond the legally restricted area.

 

But what if they just suspect that someone is voting twice or using false id?

[ChristineW]

I haven't read past page five but I wanted to make it very clear that in order to vote in 98% of elections, a person must be a citizen. Legal permanent residents are not permitted to vote in federal elections and can be deported for voting--I've seen it happen twice--even if they thought that they were entitled to vote. The naturalization process is long and requires both money and lots of documentation. Naturalized citizens are probably the most likely persons to have a photo id.

 

Christine W

[LostSurprise]

I would not have a problem with voter ID if:

 

*a picture ID was free

*where people could get it and what the needed to get it was well-advertised

*stations were set up at city halls, libraries, and polling places to get them the IDs they need to vote

 

I see that many people do not know anyone poor enough to be in this situation.

 

In high school I was friends with a family where the mother and none of the children drove. Let's just say they couldn't count on the father to get anywhere but work and back. Everyone walked into town and took the bus or got an occasional ride from friends.

 

None of these people would have been able to vote (except the man who could drive). None of them were on assistance. All were poor. It wasn't until one of the girls went to some community college classes that someone even told them there was a picture ID.

 

I also worked with several families of immigrants. Most were legal, naturalized citizens. Most were afraid to vote because in the last state they lived in there was a lot of documentation, or they didn't understand if they could, and they didn't want to mess up their papers. Seriously, they were afraid they'd be kicked out or something. Again, most of these women did not have licenses, and would not have considered a license to be a valid expense for their family.

 

My grandmother is 93. Three years ago she voluntarily gave up her license. She gets a little confused and her eyesight isn't what it used to be. She has no other picture ID. I'll be honest, I'm not sure she has a birth certificate. That just wasn't as big of a deal back then. Plus several areas have experienced fires, etc which destroyed the original certificate (my father lost his when a city building burned in Chicago..it was terrible to try and get him a passport).

 

My 93 year old grandmother does not use the computer. She's easily confused with new situations. She does not go to the library. She's on a fixed income and worried that her money won't last her lifetime. Do you think she's going to invest in a photo ID, or even be able to get one unless someone really pushes her and helps her do it?

 

I'm not against voter ID. I'm against making things harder for people who already have obstacles to overcome just getting to the polls. I also think the accusations thrown around are pretty silly. Most Republicans are not bringing up the issue so they can limit Democratic votes. That makes the assumption that the poor vote Democratic and that's not always the case. And voter fraud is an important issue, but if you want to rely on it..do the investigation first. It's unlikely things are going to change because of someone has a few anecdotes. If you want real change, show the real problem.

 

My 2 cents as a Wisconsin voter.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It can be hard to get ID if you are homeless. If you don't have a copy of your birth certificate. If you can't take the time off work to wait for hours at the DMV.

 

...it is *easy* for those of us who are (relatively) able bodied, live in some sort of stable housing, and with enough income stability to take an afternoon off work & pay the, modest but hard to come by for some, fee..

 

...and for those of us used to navigating systems... to looking up the required documents online and making sure to have them.

 

 

...it *sounds* easy, but it isn't... and anything that puts additional barriers in the way of the already disenfranchised is, imnsho, morally inexcusable in a voting system.

 

Amen:D

[Rivka]

Do you have any idea what actions they can legally and/or actually take?

 

I can see if someone were clearly violating rules like using a camera inside the polling place, passing out literature within the buffer zone or behaving in a disruptive way, that they would step in. In fact I've seen them ask campaign volunteers to move farther away from the doors to be beyond the legally restricted area.

 

But what if they just suspect that someone is voting twice or using false id?

 

They can require the person to vote a "provisional" ballot, which is set aside and investigated before it is counted.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

There has not been much voter fraud that was pursued through the courts. That isn't the same as saying there has not been voter fraud.

 

If we are willing to drop cases like the voter intimidation case in Philadelphia, then we aren't really interested in looking for voter fraud.

 

Leave aside cases like the one in my family (which was someone manipulating an elderly voter in order to get an additional Democrat vote). If someone makes strange statements in front of a poll worker (like indicating they've already voted), do they have any option to do anything at all? How blatant would it have to be for them to step in? (Serious question. I think that polling place volunteers probably have very limited ability to protest suspected irregularities.)

 

President Bush's Justice Department determined that there was no case for voter intimidation which the WSJ fails to mention:(

 

Honestly, I think those couple of Black Panthers were kooks and an isolated incident. They would not have scared me. Plus, I think the Black Panthers are has beens in the sense that they are not a major force at all.

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/07/25/ftn/main6711575.shtml

 

As for the elderly, I witnessed both Democratic and Republican get out the vote people assisting the elderly by offering rides. In fact, one spunky little lady was assisted by some Republicans and proudly told us how she voted for our Democratic candidate after the fact:D I saw this as we were campaigning outside a polling place in a legal fashion of course.

 

I am sure some voter fraud exists but I am not convinced it is widespread since there have not been more court cases despite the fact that our country has an abundance of lawyers:D I also think both parties have been guilty of this but again I am not convinced it is widespread at all.

[Bug's Mom]

I live in a town with 3 colleges and this is being talked about a lot right now. The problem for college students is that not all of the student id cards have a photo and signature on them. If they have id it's from their hometown.

 

I don't have id right now. I don't drive. I had a state id card when I lived in MN. We don't get any utility bills in our names (we rent from dh's boss) so I need to bring my birth certificate and marriage license...along with dh and his WI driver's license in order to get state id.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I live in a town with 3 colleges and this is being talked about a lot right now. The problem for college students is that not all of the student id cards have a photo and signature on them. If they have id it's from their hometown.

 

I don't have id right now. I don't drive. I had a state id card when I lived in MN. We don't get any utility bills in our names (we rent from dh's boss) so I need to bring my birth certificate and marriage license...along with dh and his WI driver's license in order to get state id.

 

I think you still have options.

 

Bank statement

Paycheck

A check or other document issued by a unit of government

A residential lease (though not if you're a first time registrant registering by mail, so you'd have to register in person)

 

If you don't have a WI license, you can submit the last four digits of your SSN (there is even a box to check if you don't have a WI license, WI ID or a SSN).

 

===

I'm not insensitive to the frustration that bureaucratic hurdles represent. When I let my VA driver's license lapse while overseas, I had no recourse but to spend some of my vacation time riding with my fil from Ohio to Virginia, (about 9 hours round trip) to get to the nearest DMV. I had to prove who I was, that I had a legal presence in VA and that I was a military dependent living overseas. Then I had to retake both the written and practical exam, because the valid EU driver's license I did have, which was supposed to be reciprocated, would have to be sent to Richmond for translation and verification (which would have taken a couple of days). But because it was important to me to have a license, I stayed at DMV for several hours so I could accomplish all of this.

 

I don't completely understand the argument I'm hearing from some quarters that voting is such an important civic right that nothing should obstruct anyone from it, but that it's not important enough to take the steps to obtain the documents required for registration or not important enough to demonstrate that each voter is in fact casting his or her ballot and not that of someone else.

 

When I take my kids to the polls on voting day, I have a little litany that I go through about how voting rights were so important that it was one of the reasons for the Revolution (representation in Parliament). That it was important enough that women were willing to chain themselves to the fence of the White House (US) or undergo forced feedings (UK) as part of the campaign to earn women's sufferage. That it was worth civil rights campaigns in the Jim Crow south that risked beatings and sometimes death. That it is so important that I'd rather not vote in some races than cast an unresearched ballot.

 

Since this is the value I attach to the franchise, I don't think that asking for some personal identification is too much to ask. Time consuming, maybe. A hassle? No more than the hassle I have to go through to get many services in daily life (medical care, library card, driver's license, access to local military bases, registration in local summer camps).

[ChrissySC]

It does not cost anything to get a Social Security Card, change your name on it, or get it replaced. The Social Security Card is free.

 

 

It wasn't much, but it did cost me $3, plus a full birth birth certificate, which was $25 plus $3 more dollars. :lol: Free is never free. LOL

 

About the ID ...

 

As a matter of fact, if you say you want the .gov to give it for free, they will just add that overall cost of operation to our taxes - how is that free? Now or later, who cares? We are still paying regardless. Last time I looked, those people at DMV and SS were getting a paycheck, which means, uh yeah, we paid them, and they did not volunteer their time.:lol:

[Rivka]

I don't completely understand the argument I'm hearing from some quarters that voting is such an important civic right that nothing should obstruct anyone from it, but that it's not important enough to take the steps to obtain the documents required for registration or not important enough to demonstrate that each voter is in fact casting his or her ballot and not that of someone else.

 

When I take my kids to the polls on voting day, I have a little litany that I go through about how voting rights were so important that it was one of the reasons for the Revolution (representation in Parliament). That it was important enough that women were willing to chain themselves to the fence of the White House (US) or undergo forced feedings (UK) as part of the campaign to earn women's sufferage. That it was worth civil rights campaigns in the Jim Crow south that risked beatings and sometimes death. That it is so important that I'd rather not vote in some races than cast an unresearched ballot.

 

But I would say that it's precisely because of the context you quote that it's important to carefully scrutinize measures which might raise barriers to voting. The history of voter qualification requirements - poll taxes, grandfather clauses, literacy tests - is that they have been used in a discriminatory fashion to suppress the vote of minorities and disadvantaged people. They didn't outlaw voting by "undesirables" outright - they set ever-larger burdens in front of them, knowing that many would be prevented or dissuaded from voting. Supporters of those laws were able to rationalize that if the vote was truly important to someone, they would surmount those burdens.

 

The research article I cited back toward the beginning of the thread demonstrated that the forms of ID required by states with strict voter ID laws are less likely to be held by minorities and other disadvantaged people. Therefore, the laws place a disproportionate burden on those segments of society.

 

What's the advantage to society that would outweigh the costs of increased barriers to voting? The anecdotes in this thread have been pretty ridiculous. Someone overheard a person making a comment to a poll worker about having already voted, and decided that it was vote fraud. ...Um, I've heard people make jokes about "vote early and often" all my life, and I never assumed they were actually voting fraudulently. How stupid would you have to be to announce that you were committing fraud at the polls? A Democrat took his Republican father-in-law to the polls - why on earth would he do such a thing, if not to steal the man's vote? ...Um, family feeling? 63% of Americans think that vote fraud is an issue, so it must be? ...Well, Americans also think that we spend 24% of our budget on foreign aid, but that's not true either.

 

I'm about done with this thread, because it's quite clear that people who believe that vote fraud is common are going to keep on believing innuendoes, unsourced anecdotes, and personal feelings over any kind of data.

[Meriwether]

What's the advantage to society that would outweigh the costs of increased barriers to voting? The anecdotes in this thread have been pretty ridiculous. Someone overheard a person making a comment to a poll worker about having already voted, and decided that it was vote fraud. ...Um, I've heard people make jokes about "vote early and often" all my life, and I never assumed they were actually voting fraudulently. How stupid would you have to be to announce that you were committing fraud at the polls?

 

I'm about done with this thread, because it's quite clear that people who believe that vote fraud is common are going to keep on believing innuendoes, unsourced anecdotes, and personal feelings over any kind of data.

 

Um. That was me being ridiculous.:glare: The guy wasn't joking. He was confused. I'm guessing he was pretty stupid. For me, it wasn't an unsourced anecdote. It was my cousin. I realize that for "you" it is unsourced since you don't know me or my cousin and I don't see that changing. That doesn't make it untrue.

[MSNative]

But I would say that it's precisely because of the context you quote that it's important to carefully scrutinize measures which might raise barriers to voting. The history of voter qualification requirements - poll taxes, grandfather clauses, literacy tests - is that they have been used in a discriminatory fashion to suppress the vote of minorities and disadvantaged people. They didn't outlaw voting by "undesirables" outright - they set ever-larger burdens in front of them, knowing that many would be prevented or dissuaded from voting. Supporters of those laws were able to rationalize that if the vote was truly important to someone, they would surmount those burdens.

 

The research article I cited back toward the beginning of the thread demonstrated that the forms of ID required by states with strict voter ID laws are less likely to be held by minorities and other disadvantaged people. Therefore, the laws place a disproportionate burden on those segments of society.

 

What's the advantage to society that would outweigh the costs of increased barriers to voting? The anecdotes in this thread have been pretty ridiculous. Someone overheard a person making a comment to a poll worker about having already voted, and decided that it was vote fraud. ...Um, I've heard people make jokes about "vote early and often" all my life, and I never assumed they were actually voting fraudulently. How stupid would you have to be to announce that you were committing fraud at the polls? A Democrat took his Republican father-in-law to the polls - why on earth would he do such a thing, if not to steal the man's vote? ...Um, family feeling? 63% of Americans think that vote fraud is an issue, so it must be? ...Well, Americans also think that we spend 24% of our budget on foreign aid, but that's not true either.

 

I'm about done with this thread, because it's quite clear that people who believe that vote fraud is common are going to keep on believing innuendoes, unsourced anecdotes, and personal feelings over any kind of data.

 

I don't think that's true. I clearly told about my cousin who went to vote and was told she'd already voted when she hadn't and about my aunt who saw names of two dead people checked off as having voted (small town, unusual names, no chance there were two people with the same name). This isn't innuendo. It's fact. It also causes me to wonder about the accuracy of the report that stated there were only 24 cases in 2 years. I don't think it's fair to say that people in favor of voter id are ignoring data or trying to keep undesirables from voting.

 

I've been enjoying reading this thread because I've started to understand that some people are concerned about barriers to getting ids. I return to an earlier question that I didn't see answered (though I may have just missed it.) If id's were free, would you (general, not specific you) still be against voters showing id? Do you have a philosophical problem with voter ids or is it a procedural issue, if that makes sense?)

[TXMomof4]

 

ETA: I looked up voter registration requirements for TX. You have to fill out a voter registration application and mail it to the local county voter registrar. You can request a postage-paid application, but you have to fill out a form for that. I'm looking at this online - I don't know where you can find this info in the "real world." The application asks for ID/license number or the last 4 digits of your SSN, along with name, birthday, and address.

 

At any post office (including grocery store branches). It's not hard to register to vote.

[pqr]

My point is that it is inaccurate to say (as was stated in a different post) that there were only two dozen cases of voter fraud. That might be the number of convictions. But it doesn't reflect the irregularities that others here have mentioned.

 

It hardly seems appropriate to wave away account after account, then state that the lack of prosecuted cases means that there is no fraud.

 

 

It is perfectly appropriate if one wants to ignore the problem, to bury their head in the sand and intimate that anyone who actually wants to ensure that those who vote are entitled to do so is a racist.

 

When there is no argument to support opposing something as simple as ensuring that voters are legitimate and are who they claim to be then one must muddy the issue with a flurry of accusations and the wearing of large blinders.

 

Finally, calling this a "poll tax" is patently absurd.

 

We are speaking about our nation and system of government and that it can be impacted by fraud should be seen as a problem to all. Asking for a valid ID is NOT onerous, it IS common sense.

Edited May 24, 2011 by pqr

[stripe]

I think the government should provide free IDs. Regardless of where you stand on voter IDs, there should be a more financially accessible way to have proof of identity.

[missiemick]

I have a friend that has issues with the government -- she doesn't have a driver's license (she has an international license), bank account . . . and she doesn't pay taxes. It's long to explain but basically she doesn't think it's Constitutional and doesn't want the government to be able to track her in any way. She's very active in her political party and votes every election. If they required an "official" ID then she wouldn't be able to vote. Probably not the majority of voters out there -- but people like her exist.

[In2why]

I don't think that's true. I clearly told about my cousin who went to vote and was told she'd already voted when she hadn't and about my aunt who saw names of two dead people checked off as having voted (small town, unusual names, no chance there were two people with the same name). This isn't innuendo. It's fact. It also causes me to wonder about the accuracy of the report that stated there were only 24 cases in 2 years. I don't think it's fair to say that people in favor of voter id are ignoring data or trying to keep undesirables from voting.

 

I've been enjoying reading this thread because I've started to understand that some people are concerned about barriers to getting ids. I return to an earlier question that I didn't see answered (though I may have just missed it.) If id's were free, would you (general, not specific you) still be against voters showing id? Do you have a philosophical problem with voter ids or is it a procedural issue, if that makes sense?)

 

Yes, even if ID's were free I would be against needing them to vote. Even if your Aunt was factually correct in the dead people voting, and not that they were still registered, It is more important to me that the people that want to vote are able to then the very small number of voter fraud.

 

My question is how do you arrive at the acceptable trade off? For me I error on making it easier for people to vote even if that means that there will be some cases of voting fraud versus stamping out all fraud, but results in more people not being able to easily vote.

Not exactly the same thing, but there is a quote on my mind right now, "I would rather 10 guilty men go free, then 1 innocent man go to prison". Of course in these cases I think it would be the other way around, for every 10 people that should be able to vote and can't, to stop 1 person from committing voter fraud.

[angela in ohio]

I have a friend that has issues with the government -- she doesn't have a driver's license (she has an international license), bank account . . . and she doesn't pay taxes. It's long to explain but basically she doesn't think it's Constitutional and doesn't want the government to be able to track her in any way. She's very active in her political party and votes every election. If they required an "official" ID then she wouldn't be able to vote. Probably not the majority of voters out there -- but people like her exist.

 

She does realize that her voting is a government record, right? ;)

 

(I won't even get into my opinion about whether she should be voting if she isn't willing to pay her taxes anyway. :D)

[Sebastian (a lady)]

She does realize that her voting is a government record, right? ;)

 

(I won't even get into my opinion about whether she should be voting if she isn't willing to pay her taxes anyway. :D)

 

I'm always bemused when I run into military folks who are convinced that income tax is not really constitutional. I ran into one at the base library last year. I pointed her toward the economics books and backed away slowly.

 

I don't think she was aware of the irony of being paid out of federal taxes collected via income tax while protesting same.

 

Can't say that I've ever heard of a tax protesting military member who refused his paycheck in protest.

[angela in ohio]

Can't say that I've ever heard of a tax protesting military member who refused his paycheck in protest.

 

I could at least respect that. :001_smile: Most people only take a stand as long as it doesn't cost them money or convenience.

[missiemick]

She does realize that her voting is a government record, right? ;)

 

(I won't even get into my opinion about whether she should be voting if she isn't willing to pay her taxes anyway. :D)

 

Who knows??? I've not been able to understand her logic.

[Slartibartfast]

I could at least respect that. :001_smile: Most people only take a stand as long as it doesn't cost them money or convenience.

 

The IRS takes a pretty dim view on not paying one's taxes. They charge a $1000 fine for refusing to pay taxes because you feel it is unconstitutional

[Sputterduck]

I think they should revert to a call in system like on American Idol. You can call/text/online vote as many times as you want. The candidates could have a big debate right before the call in. Maybe for our entertainment there could be a talent portion. :lol:

 

Awesome.

[AuntPol]

Am I only one seeing the catch-22

 

Oh we can't require an ID to vote because the poor/homeless (AKA Jobless) won't be able to vote. Perhaps they wouldn't be jobless if they had an ID? From my experience, you have to have some form of evidence that you are a US Citizen to get a job legally in the US.

 

ID cards are bad because you have to get off work to get one?

How are they working if they don't have an ID? YOu have to have have legal ID to work.

 

ID cards disenfranchise students?

How did they get into college without an ID? How did they register for classes? How did they get student loans? Scholarships? Housing on or off campus?

 

ID cards are bad for the elderly?

How are they getting their prescriptions filled without an ID? How did they apply for medicare or medicaid? Social Security? How do they cash a check or open a bank account to get an atm card ? How do they go to a doctor?

 

ID cards are bad for the poor?

How are they getting any form of government assistance without ID?

 

ID cards are bad for legal immigrants?

How did they pass the naturalization process without an ID? The Naturalization certificate is legal ID.

 

You can't get transportation to get the ID?

How can you get it to go vote?

 

Poll tax?

It's been offered to give free IDs to those that can't afford it.

 

Rural?

What's that got to do with the price of tea in China? I grew up rural and my family had ID's. YOu have to drive into town for supplies at somepoint!

 

Illiterate?

You can't read well enough to get an ID but you can read well enough to figure out how to read a ballot? Huh??

 

Racist?

I think it's racist to assume that only whites hold jobs, drive cars, cash checks, board airplanes, go to the doctor, join the military, travel out of the country, buy sudafed, and enter federal buildings. Non-whites can't be part of the poor and illiterate but then they are only ones with IDs to get the welfare?

 

Anti-Democrat?

Are you saying that democrats don't work yet don't get welfare or other entitlements? They are legal immigrants but never got naturalized? They are students but illiterate. Are you saying that only Republicans actually work to pay the taxes?

 

 

and people wonder why I hate both political parties.... Things like this make my head spin!