s/o punctuality

[Barb_]

Duh-oh! I just realized Eliana meant viruses :D Although I can imagine riding around with the whole family in different VW bugs all evening could make one cranky as well.

[Kirch]

Dear Ester, in North America we will cluck at you for failing to live by the minute hand on your wristwatch.

 

After we have gotten over our shock at your rudeness, we will brusquely invite you in, addressing you by your first name without permission and otherwise speaking with excessive familiarity.

 

We will expect you to want to get to work promptly since you are already late, so we will offer you neither chair nor refreshment. We will probably also neglect to properly introduce our children or our other guests. After all, yours is not a social call. It is business.

 

Sigh.

 

(I am punctual. My mother taught me, correctly, that attention to details of that kind could help this 'working poor' young woman become the dark horse in many situations. I am teaching my sons the same attention to posture, eye contact, firm handshake, etc., and punctuality. Around here, the early bird gets the worm, and the polite kid--polite according to American standards, that is--finds open doors of opportunity.

 

Still, I think it is foolish to not recognize that this is all purely cultural and not an issue of character.)

 

I think where it *does* become an issue of character is if you know how your actions negatively impact others (whether it's lost productivity on the job or frustrating a friend for constantly keeping her waiting) and you don't at least try to adjust your actions. Because then it's an issue of being inconsiderate.

 

I'd do the same thing if I were in a culture where being "late" was the accepted norm, recognizing that showing up "on time" would be inconveniencing the hostess or whatever. So I'd try to be considerate, change my actions and show up at what was really the expected time.

[Barb_]

respiratory bug... nastier than a cold, not as vicious as the flu... deadly to any hopes of the baby sleeping through the night.

 

*sigh*

 

Sorry for being cryptic - I shouldn't be posting when this out of it... spacey, cranky, and distracted by sick kids is not the optimal mindset for making public statements... at least y'all know me well enough (and for long enough) that you know I'm not a troll....

 

Oooo...I had that during the week surrounding mother's day. It was awful. I hope you are on the mend shortly.

[Jean in Newcastle]

This thread reminds me of my best friend's family. Her dad is German and her mom is Filipina--can you guess what the problem was? :lol:. Bernd would get fed up with his wife's perpetual lateness, but Cindy always said it wasn't her fault because she ran on PST--Phillipine Standard Time--where things aren't so precise.

 

We've taken on PST as our own little joke, but we switch out the P for other letters as the occasion demands (American Standard Time, Mexican Standard Time, Music Teacher Standard Time, etc.).

 

Whenever we do something with dh's extended family, we ask is this on Filipino time or American time? Then we adjust our time expectations according to the culture. Within the Filipino culture to be "on time" would be rude because the host wouldn't be ready! Either that or you are expected to jump in and help the host to get ready.

[Amy in TX]

Whenever we do something with dh's extended family, we ask is this on Filipino time or American time? Then we adjust our time expectations according to the culture. Within the Filipino culture to be "on time" would be rude because the host wouldn't be ready! Either that or you are expected to jump in and help the host to get ready.

 

:iagree:

 

Exactly how it is with us (in-laws are Pakistani). :)

[Jean in Newcastle]

I really do (try to) understand much of those cultural differences and maximally adhere to "when in Rome..."; but some things, like this one, just never cease to puzzle me, as they always seem so blown out of proportions to me and make me want to just say: "Hey, relaaaaaax, all is good, it is only a few minutes! I will stay a bit longer anyway - if that does not suit you, well, when my tardiness accumulates, we can exchange those chunks for some free lessons! Relax! All is good!" :D

 

 

 

I think the problem for me can be expressed best by using the phrase "domino effect". If I have an appointment with one person from 1 pm to 2 pm, but it really goes from 1:15 - 2:15, then anything I've planned after that is moved over by at least 15 minutes. In one sense, if you really do provide the teaching from 1:15 - 2:15 and I can count on it to never go later than that, I can mitigate the domino effect to some extent. But if I were not expecting that, then that one appointment being at a different time than I had planned can really make a big difference.

 

The domino effect is also felt when this sort of dynamic happens in a group. If I have a class with 10 students at 1 pm, and some show up by 1 pm but some are later, then I don't want to start at the later time because it penalizes those who came on time. And depending on these people's schedules, it can start a whole string of domino reactions in their own schedules. And if the teacher is late, then it automatically effects each of my students who have any thing else planned in their day.

 

In my homeschool, with my children, we only use the clock as a guide. We have a more organic flow to our day which is what it sounds like you have. But if we are meeting with anyone outside of our own organic microcosm, then we try to align ourselves with the clock.

[Kirch]

...but it doesn't have to work quite that way. Not since she's told you up front how she works. (Very different from someone who *doesn't* alert you before you sign up with them! ...and the reason I find the charges of "unprofessionalism" baffling... she's outlined her working conditions, as a professional, and they include a buffer time... I can take it or leave it, but so long as she deals with it in an clear, up front way, she is being perfectly professional, imnsho.)

 

I can envision dropping my kid off, perhaps even a little early, to sit on the (I hope covered) porch to read or crochet and then picking him/her up ~15 minutes after the theoretical end time. ...I could have long enough to do an actual errand, or spend a reasonable amount of time at the park with the other kids... and the kid waiting would have amusements... none of my kids would find it a big deal at all.

 

If it were at our home, I would just build the extra time into the day... we don't lead tightly scheduled lives (except on Thursday afternoons, which are *crazy*), and having the start/end times flexible doesn't have to be a big deal. ...at least for my lifestyle. As this thread has shown, your mileage may vary! :)

 

 

Yes, and that's what I'd do if I decided it was worth "spending" the extra half-hour (and as long as I had the extra time to work with). There are days/seasons when we've got lots of flexibility to our schedule, but there are days/seasons when we don't.

 

I think another reason (in addition to the ones already mentioned in the thread) it's seen as unprofessional is that most people expect a professional to be able to manage her time well (or at least precisely) and to accurately predict how long a lesson or other provision of service will take. In this culture (meaning the general American culture that values punctuality), habitual lateness seems to show either an inability to do those things or shows that she doesn't call it like it is as far as an actual start time--some people will consider that an honesty/integrity issue.

 

And I guess that's something else that makes me wonder--if you *know* you're going to always be there at 1:15 for whatever reason, why even say that it starts at 1:00 if it's up to you? It seems that as a professional (assuming you're working in a culture that values promptness), it would be in your best interests to communicate what you expect your *actual* start time will be. Tell the client it'll be 1:15, even if mentally you still consider it 1:00.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Kirch

[twoforjoy]

I think the problem for me can be expressed best by using the phrase "domino effect". If I have an appointment with one person from 1 pm to 2 pm, but it really goes from 1:15 - 2:15, then anything I've planned after that is moved over by at least 15 minutes. In one sense, if you really do provide the teaching from 1:15 - 2:15 and I can count on it to never go later than that, I can mitigate the domino effect to some extent. But if I were not expecting that, then that one appointment being at a different time than I had planned can really make a big difference.

 

Is part of the issue, though, that we are too over-scheduled in U.S. culture? I mean, I think somebody could make a valid argument that the issue isn't so much somebody being 15 minutes late but more the other person having so many things scheduled for that day that any delay will throw things off.

 

I'm a very under-scheduled person, so that's probably why tardiness doesn't bother me. The only time it becomes an issue for me is when I have to be somewhere on time, like work. If I had numerous things planned each day that I had to be on time to, then certainly I'd probably be more bothered by tardiness, but I'm just wondering if it's just as "selfish" to have thing after thing planned, so that other people need to be running on your timetable, as it is to show up somewhere 10-15 minutes late.

 

And I'm just musing here, not being accusatory. I'm a punctual person, but I do think it's far more an issue of culture than character.

[delaney]

I look at it this way. If I can be early or on time with 6 kids then anyone can. I can't stand people who are late all the time and I do find that they don't respect my time. We are actually switching dance studios b/c of this. If I pay for 60 minutes then don't roll up 7 minutes late everyday. If it is a more casual social thing then a few minutes don't bother me. I am also ADD and have learned to set my clocks 10 minutes ahead to avoid being late. I have not read the whole thread but this is my general answer to the main question:)

[Joyofsixreboot]

It is a learned skill but I'm sure some personalities have an easier time learning it. I am one of those who arrives 5 min early to eveything and I'll admit I tend to think those who don't are self-centered ( barring flat tires, car vomiting, etc) .

[Impish]

I think part of it is the message that is received when someone is habitually late is, "Of course you should wait on me! What else better could you have to do?"

[Paige]

(Hi Eliana. Yes, Jewish standard time indeed - a light version though LOL!)

 

Wow, I think I would need a glass of wine after this thread, too bad it is too early to have it, it has got really depressing. Y'all really make it sound like such a cardinal vice, almost emblematic of a complete moral failure and absolutely a hill to die on in a professional setting, that I am becoming really paranoid, wondering whether it is such a bad thing, but I have somehow managed not to become aware of the magnitude of the offense.

 

All in all, time to elegantly :leaving:!

 

I don't think it is all that bad. I think that this type of thread speaks more to those who find tardiness/punctuality to be one of their pet peeves than it does to those of us who are more relaxed about it. We're laid back, we just don't care so much to enter the debate.

 

I am American, my family is American, and in "our" culture being early is so much worse than being 5-15min late. By our, I mean my culture- that of my friends and family. In America, there can be many cultures within the same town. I think in general, American culture gives a 5-10min grace period for most social things to account for traffic and clocks running fast or slow. I think people who know that the teacher is regularly 10-15min late could just plan it into their day-it isn't something that should bug you every time because you know it is going to happen every time! I had a SLP coming to my house who was always 15min late. I didn't get mad, I just wrote down that he was coming 15min after his stated time and planned my day around that. See- easy. One day he showed up 10min early and we weren't dressed! Coming early is so much ruder and presumptive to me. I noted that he was always late, as I did find it unusual in a service provider, but he was with early intervention with kids and stuff happens. I would rather have a professional give all his clients his best and to really care about the person than to have them more focused on being on time to the next appointment. If they are late, then I know that I will receive the same care as the previous client when my child needs it. Relationships, love, respect, compassion, and being fully engaged in the moment are more important to me than sticking to a schedule.

[Lizzie in Ma]

What an interesting question. I hadn't considered it before.

I was raised to be 15 minutes early for appointments always. I get very stressed if we are "late". By that I mean not there 15 minutes early.

I am never, ever, late unless something drastic happens.

Nature or nurture?

Clearly nurture but are my own feelings of stress about running late my nature? Or a result of the upbringing?

I know people who are habitually late and honestly, it makes me crazy.

I teach my children that being late is a sign of disrespect, of not valuing others time above your own.

I think perhaps budgeting your time can certainly be a learned life skill and I think it is very important that my kids learn it.

Managing your time would be a way to ensure that you are not late.

[Jenny in Florida]

I am completely failing to see how that is either rude or unprofessional. She's setting the ground rules from the beginning and you can take it or leave it.

 

But, you see, to me that is simply not professional behavior. I expect professionals that I'm paying to work with my children to make a schedule and stick to it. As someone else said, an instructor who consistently runs between five and 15 minutes late means that hour-long lesson actually takes as much as 90 minutes out of my day. I am expected to be there on time (or to have my home ready and the dog locked up or whatever) and then cool my heels waiting until that "professional" manages to be ready?

 

Nope. I'd leave it.

 

Do you feel the same way about your doctor? Or the repair folks? (*those* irritate me - they give a four or six *hour* window in which they might arrive, but it is the way they run their business, and, within those established conditions, they are very professional.)

 

Those things irritate me, too. The difference, to me, is that these are people with whom I interact only very occasionally. And I absolutely understand why they need some flexibility in their schedules. A doctor might not really know how long he or she will need to spend with the seven patients who have appointments before me that day. I get that, if one patient needs more care than anticipated, I might need to wait a few minutes. A plumber doesn't know whether the house before mine on the list needs to have a washer replaced or needs a part that requires a trip to the hardware store and an hour of installation. Those appointment times are estimates based on the best information available at the moment they are made.

 

I still get tired of waiting, but I understand. And I can cope with it once or twice a year, if that often.

 

In this situation, we're talking about a person who is doing a job that is defined by time, not task. This is a standing appointment each week. A person who can't manage a routine schedule without wasting my time is not, as far as I'm concerned, behaving in a professional manner.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Jenny in Florida

[unsinkable]

Well, reading this thread has made me *so* happy to be ensconced in my little corner of the world, with my family and my friends. :tongue_smilie: My dh is Okinawan. My friends are all relaxed. We schedule *everything* for 11ish or 2ish or "when you get here." We just don't care, any of us. That is how we all hang out and socialize, etc. None of us are bothered by it and quite enjoy our group.

 

As a family, we are never late for work, appointments, lessons, etc. If something comes up that puts us off our schedule, we call, even for 5 minutes late. But when it comes to private, social stuff, we don't care to lose precious friends, cause stress among family relations, or add to the stress of life by getting wrapped around the axle of punctuality. :001_smile: Come as you are, when you can, grab a drink, pull up a chair, and chat away!!

 

Are the different areas/islands of Japan drastically different in cultural personality? Like different parts of the the US in some respects?

[Aubrey]

I think it can be learned, but I think there are personality traits & life circumstances that make that more or less difficult. Sure, a naturally organized person will be more naturally on time...until she has a chronic health issue or a child w/ special needs. Social anxiety can make it hard to leave the house before the last minute, too, & knowing that people will take lateness personally is likely to convince that person to simply not go to said event.

 

I think it's sad w/ all the hard & evil things in the world to make punctuality an issue of respect & selfishness. We all know that there are plenty of people who qualify as scum who are extremely punctual. Death, for ex, is rarely late. ;)

 

And the whole question would be moot if it weren't for the fact that people we love are often late. So instead of getting all bent out of shape about it, I figure there are plenty of annoying things about me, too. Sometimes even that I'm late!

[Haiku]

Do you consider punctuality to be essentially a personality trait that some people have and some don't

 

This. Some people overestimate how much they can get done in a given amount of time and/or underestimate the amount of time certain things (including travel time) take. I don't really think that they can be taught out of that. I am punctual, but I know plenty of non-punctual people and, with the exception of those with several young ones (where something always goes wrong), it's usually because they are just poor time estimators. ETA: However, I think that the problem can be remedied somewhat by having a zero-hour at which the person walks out the door to get where they need to go, regardless of whether they have gotten to everything they think they needed to get done. If you really care enough to get there, you can do it, even if you never learn the fine art of time estimating.

 

Tara

Edited May 19, 2011 by TaraTheLiberator

[Pax]

I was an unpunctual person. In my family of origin, punctuality really wasn't a big deal, to the point that I didn't think being 5-10 minutes late for a doctor or dentist appointment was any type of issue. For social events, I was usually a half hour or so late. I managed to arrive at school and work on time but everything else I thought had at least a 15 minute window. I can remember the first time I arrived at a movie theater early enough to watch previews on my second date with my now husband when I was 22.

 

Then I met my husband. He is a majorly punctual person. He shoots to be everywhere around 15 minutes early and will stress if he isn't at LEAST 5 minutes early. I realized how it felt disrespectful to him if people were late and changed how I looked at time. Now I am a very punctual person.

 

I completely understand being late occasionally due to diaper blow outs, tantrums, traffic, what not. If someone is late EVERY single time, even if it is a doctor's office, I would take my business elsewhere if it was a professional. I guess if the person was the actual best in their business and the next level down was really subpar I would try to figure out other arrangements with the professional but otherwise I wouldn't bother.

 

I have a new friend who operates this way and I have to figure out a way to talk to her about it. It isn't because I'm so "overscheduled" that I plan things too closely together. It is because I don't want to sit and wait for someone every single time I get together with them. This friend was recently a half an hour late to her daughter's birthday party. It was a destination party so we had to sit around and wait for her family with the other guests until she got there. And her being late made the party run over which made the next party late and so on!

[Violet Crown]

My departed Grandmother, who was unfailing in matters of etiquette, wore driving gloves, didn't applaud in church, and insisted on being addressed by the form correct for a divorcee, believed in the principle that one was never the first to arrive nor the last to leave. She would not have been caught dead showing up on the punctual minute. So I learned to take being fifteen minutes "late" as a matter of politeness.

 

Habitual lateness was only reinforced by growing up in a city with a certain reputation for laid-backness. In fact, I showed up at a party yesterday half an hour after the invite time (it was a three-hour party, so that would have put me at the "right" time for events in my city), and was shocked to see that everyone else was there! I'd forgotten until I looked at the address that it was up in the northern suburbs, where "one o'clock" actually means "one o'clock."

 

I apologize en masse for my chronic lateness. I'll probably work on correcting it, though there are several other things I need to get around to doing first. :) Unpunctuality is certainly not my worst character flaw, I assure you.

[dirty ethel rackham]

I think part of it is the message that is received when someone is habitually late is, "Of course you should wait on me! What else better could you have to do?"

 

Do you really think this is what chronically late people think? With few exceptions, everyone I know who struggles with punctuality is truly sorry and anxious about this. But, they really haven't figured out how to manage it. Just like "born organized" people simply don't understand how others can struggle with organization, "born punctual" people don't understand why others struggle with being on time. Unfortunately, I was "born neither."

 

When I was little, I was always yelled at about how long it took me to get out the door. Every day, it was a screaming match to get us all to school. I wasn't late to school, but it sure was stressful. I was rarely late for work but it was always rush, rush, rush.

 

There were times in my life where my lateness was due to fatigue - I didn't have the energy to get going and it was only the adrenaline of being late that got me going. I HATED that about me, but felt powerless about it. I hated that my children would manage to have blowout poops as we were walking out the door (10 minutes early, on time, 5 minutes late, it didn't matter.) I simply could not force them to poop earlier.

 

But, for most of my life, it has been due to difficulty with time management - consistently underestimate how long things will take. The anxiety I feel about being late is probably equal to the annoyance others felt about waiting for me.

 

Now that my kids are older, we do better about getting places on time - partially because, as I near 50 years old, I think I finally get what I need to do to make it happen (setting timers, getting more things done the night before, letting the phone ring as I am leaving, not doing that "one more thing"), and partially because my kids are better about helping us all get out the door.

[cindergretta]

Are the different areas/islands of Japan drastically different in cultural personality? Like different parts of the the US in some respects?

 

I can only assume. I don't really know. Okinawa is an island and like most islands (islanders ;) ) they are laid back and relaxed and in no rush to get anywhere. We live on Okinawa Time. :D

[Haiku]

 

Would it not matter the least bit if I was really the best around in what I did? Would punctuality, and thus professionality, for you come even at expense of expertise and having to go with the lower quality?

 

Yes. I don't care how excellent you are. If you waste my time, it will make me angry, and I won't want to be bothered with you. I have three kids and lots of responsibilities, and the rest of my day can't be thrown off because you can't be bothered to show up on time. If you actually warned me ahead of the time that this is the case, I would take that as, "I'm unprofessional and I know it but don't care to do anything about it. It's my time and my life, after all."

 

Blunt, I know, but true.

 

Tara

[Haiku]

I know that sometimes a student before us might show up late and make the other lessons late.

 

A late student should not affect the other lessons. A late student can have a lesson until his or her specified lesson time is over. If he only gets half a less because he was late, oh well! Catering to late people and allowing them to mess up everyone else's schedule just reinforces the idea that being late doesn't matter/has no consequences.

 

Tara

[Kirch]

Do you really think this is what chronically late people think? With few exceptions, everyone I know who struggles with punctuality is truly sorry and anxious about this. But, they really haven't figured out how to manage it. Just like "born organized" people simply don't understand how others can struggle with organization, "born punctual" people don't understand why others struggle with being on time. Unfortunately, I was "born neither."

 

When I was little, I was always yelled at about how long it took me to get out the door. Every day, it was a screaming match to get us all to school. I wasn't late to school, but it sure was stressful. I was rarely late for work but it was always rush, rush, rush.

 

There were times in my life where my lateness was due to fatigue - I didn't have the energy to get going and it was only the adrenaline of being late that got me going. I HATED that about me, but felt powerless about it. I hated that my children would manage to have blowout poops as we were walking out the door (10 minutes early, on time, 5 minutes late, it didn't matter.) I simply could not force them to poop earlier.

 

But, for most of my life, it has been due to difficulty with time management - consistently underestimate how long things will take. The anxiety I feel about being late is probably equal to the annoyance others felt about waiting for me.

 

Now that my kids are older, we do better about getting places on time - partially because, as I near 50 years old, I think I finally get what I need to do to make it happen (setting timers, getting more things done the night before, letting the phone ring as I am leaving, not doing that "one more thing"), and partially because my kids are better about helping us all get out the door.

 

It may not be the way chronically late people think, but I agree with Imp that it's often the message that is *received*, which is not necessarily the same thing. I also think maybe that message is more perceived in a professional context than a social context. Who among us hasn't been frustrated by a doctor running significantly late, making us feel like *our* time isn't valued?

 

Although I have to say that if I went ahead and started an activity without waiting for a tardy friend (beyond maybe 5-10 minutes) and they were miffed about it, I think I *would* feel like they think I don't have anything better to do than wait on them. For someone who struggles to be on time but actually *does* care and understands that sometimes the world has to go on without them? No, I don't get the feeling that they don't value my time. A lot of it has to do with context, attitude, and how late they are.

 

My BIL and SIL are consistently late--like 1 to 2 hours late--to family functions. It drives my MIL crazy, but I'm of the opinion that we should just start when we said we would and they would either learn to be on time or miss out. MIL is getting better about doing that, but there are times when whatever we're doing depends on BIL/SIL and family. Those times, it often does feel like they think we don't have anything better to do than just wait around on them, even though I know that's not really the case. By this point we know that this is how they roll and we just work around it.

[Karis]

I think part of it is the message that is received when someone is habitually late is, "Of course you should wait on me! What else better could you have to do?"

 

 

Or...

 

you can flip it. Ask yourself...

 

Why does someone's lateness get my pant**s in such a wad?

 

Why do people get so upset? (well, because they have their own agenda, their own priorities, their own schedule - and your lateness is an imposition)

 

 

I think the people with the MAJOR issues who can't move on are transferring their own anxiety on others. They don't respect me!!!! that's why they are late. They are so rude! How dare they!!! They don't think I'm important. they think they are better than me!! They think they can just be late and it's ok??!?!? I have things to do, places to go. I'm on a schedule!!! they are so unprofessional!! Aren't doctors "professionals?" But you'll wait 15 minutes past your appointment time and it's not a problem - you can catch up on reading the magazine subscriptions you cancelled because you're trying to trim your budget/ chat with a friend/ read a book whatever.... because you really like this doctor/ office/ the staff is friendly etc...

 

people pick and choose

 

No one is trying tick you off. Most people are just trying to manage their life / get to where they're going / and do whatever they have to do.

 

Would LIFE stop if the person did not appear on time? No, you would keep it moving. Life would go on.

 

:lol:

 

Just do you.

 

This is to no one in particular so no tomatoes, please. And if you do toss a couple my way.

 

Please know - I'll either dodge 'em or catch and put them to good use. (in a salad or something). :tongue_smilie:

Edited May 19, 2011 by Karis
typo

[Ginevra]

Do you consider punctuality to be essentially a personality trait that some people have and some don't, or do you consider it more of a life skill that should be learned and developed, regardless of personal preferences or inclinations? Some combination of the two? Neither?

 

:bigear:

 

Life skill. Honestly, I think there is a selfish component in being chronically late.

 

ETA: I posted before reading up. Now my comment sounds dead-horse-beating in nature.

Edited May 19, 2011 by Quill
remorse

[Ginevra]

Do people really, really care about that? How if I gave private lessons to your kid, often came 10-15 minutes late, but never cheated on your time, strictly speaking (i.e. what if I "counted" the time for the lesson from when we started working, not from when it was scheduled, and, in fact, what if I have been less than a formalist and not necessarily ending the same minute the time is out but, if needed, staying a bit longer too)? And if you were forewarned that dynamics with me is such and such? Would it really be a deal-breaker, the fact that I am often late?

 

What if I was really good at what I was doing, very professional, etc.? Would you really not wish to work with me because I had a tendency of being a bit late?

 

Just trying to find out how people feel about it.

 

Personally, yes, I would care. This would be enough for me to fire you. Even if you are giving the full amount of time paid for, you're inconveniencing me by not being prepared at the agreed-upon time.

 

I am in this exact situation with a teacher I hired for our co-op. He arranged make-up classes for the time he missed, but this is not good enough. The parents who are at the co-op come to the co-op for classes because it's convenient to have all the kids in classes at one time in one place. Going to a makeup class somewhere else for one kid was not what I paid for and so it's not good enough.

 

I don't see what is so hard about compensating correctly for the amount of time it takes one to drive somewhere. If you know you tend to get distracted at the last minute or you tend to underestimate the actual distance you must drive, what is so hard about planning in an extra 15 minutes...or an extra 45?

 

Chronic lateness just makes no sense to me. I'm not sympathetic to it at all.

[Haiku]

Aren't doctors "professionals?" But you'll wait 15 minutes past your appointment time and it's not a problem

 

Doctors are different. They have good reason to be late. I want my and my children's health given all the attention it deserves, too. Doctors have emergencies.

 

Those who are chronically tardy are not attending to life-and-death situations or performing important professional services. They are just late because they don't schedule well or don't care, and it becomes chronic because they don't address it. I don't get extremely het up about it, but I do think there is a lack of consideration on the part of the chronically tardies (not the only reason they are late, but a component of it).

 

When I have to travel or appear somewhere where I cannot be late (some formal occasions, opera, whatnot), I behave as though I have to come half an hour earlier, but honestly, I just find it too much a bother to behave that way all the time. So I am late.

 

And there you have it. For at least one among us (I suspect there are more who didn't state it so bluntly), being on time (which to me is the same as meeting a commitment) is just too much of a bother. Some things are simply not important enough to be on time for. They simply can't be bothered. :001_huh:

 

I'm not trying to be mean or snarky, but chronic tardies should be aware that they are often perceived as thoughtless and self-absorbed.

 

Tara

Edited May 19, 2011 by TaraTheLiberator

[silliness7]

Thank you everyone for your responses to my sidetrack. :) A fascinating read.

Just one more thing, I cannot resist:

 

But what if the person who is not punctual the best around in terms of expertise? I am really sorry for pushing this so far (sorry OP for the sidetrack), but I am really interested where people's red lines are.

 

Languages are one area where this is felt very well. You have an option between a teacher for language X who is born and bred in the country where X is spoken, has attained fancy advanced degrees on X universities, has a genuine accent, lives the culture, etc. And then you have the other option, typical X majors, usually without extended stays in a place where X is spoken, who still make some "learner" mistakes and who just cannot reasonably compete with X expert from Xland (there are exceptions, naturally). And for argument's sake let us assume money is not an issue and you can pay both (obviously, the first profile will probably always cost you more, late or not). Would you really opt for lesser quality only because of one's tendency to be late, even if you knew that the sole fact you have an access to that profile of a teacher in the first place is pretty much akin to winning a lottery, if learning X is important to you? Would you still not be able to swallow it, no matter what?

(Not trying to change your mind or anything, just really interested in how people to whom punctuality matters think about these stuff. :))

 

O.K. There are *pages* still I haven't read yet. But I wanted to respond here with my 2 cents. (which is all it's worth, if that. :D)

 

I think it would depend on a bunch of factors whether the lateness wouldn't be an issue. But maybe assuming that there were absolutely no other issues, like personality conflicts, or apathy towards the subject, or differing philosophies about how nitpicky to get with the subject, etc. etc. And if I could logistically work the erratic puntuality into my schedule I would bring a book to read and deal with it. But if there were other issues that were niggling at me then the punctuality might be the straw.

 

And there is a very good chance that there *would* be other issues if someone thought they were God's gift to xyz and that made it perfectly acceptable for them to disrespect other people's schedules. Just speaking hypothetically, obviously. :001_smile:

 

But if there were no other issues and I could work around it, I would. :D

[Audrey]

I'm not trying to be mean or snarky, but chronic tardies should be aware that they are often perceived as thoughtless and self-absorbed.

 

Tara

 

 

:iagree: At the same time that I can accept that most people don't meant their tardiness as an insult, they need to understand that most people are going to perceive it that way.

 

I do draw a distinction between chronic job/professional tardiness and chronic social tardiness, though. The former is completely inexcusable, the latter is easily forgiven, if still quite annoying.

[Karis]

Why do "professionals" get a pass?

 

because they are given them.

 

 

People choose who gets a pass and who doesn't.

 

People may think what "professionals" do is more important or acceptable because they're specialists.

 

"I want quality care, etc..." - but they are providing a service and if anybody has a reason to be prompt, professional, etc... it's those who have a vested interest in doing so.

 

 

Doctors have professional schedulers who should be able to gauge how much time is needed per patient. Let's be real.

[Ester Maria]

I don't see what is so hard about compensating correctly for the amount of time it takes one to drive somewhere. If you know you tend to get distracted at the last minute or you tend to underestimate the actual distance you must drive, what is so hard about planning in an extra 15 minutes...or an extra 45?

Quite often these things are less than perfectly predictable, especially if traffic is involved and you live in a city... and I am frankly not one of those that are going to get all worked up in a hurry and create a potential chaos on the road just because they fear they are going late. So, if I already happen to be potentially late, but that can still be compensated by greater speed, I am just not going to do it. I will remain calm, with the "nothing is that important" attitude.

 

I really, really dislike the "time stress". It physically upsets me and that is NOT good (especially if you are panicking and might drive, or disturbed and disoriented while you should be perfectly concentrated on the work for maximum productivity) and I just cut myself some slack because of that. I know my limits. Time stress is one of few things that I have recognized as extremely bad for me, so I have reached a decision to organize my life the way to maximally avoid it. One of the side effects of the leggero attitude towards time is that sometimes you will be a little late (mind you, it feels weird even calling it that way, as up to quarter an hour barely constitutes "late" in my view anyway).

And there you have it. For at least one among us (I suspect there are more who didn't state it so bluntly), being on time (which to me is the same as meeting a commitment) is just too much of a bother. Some things are simply not important enough to be on time for. They simply can't be bothered. :001_huh:

But Tara, small things... in life... generally are less important than we make them be. Really. Getting so worked up over what is generally 5-10 minutes of somebody's tardiness (preannounced, no less, that it might happen!), taking it so personally, outright refusing quality on the grounds of what I perceive as totally minor, petty control issues... seems like a bit of an ego problem in itself to me (I am using a general "you" here). Sort of, you just cannot comprehend how I could not take with utmost seriety your lesson, make it equally a high priority as crucial things in life... But it is not. I take it seriously enough to do my job well once there and make sure I do not cheat you on your money (by compensating for those chunks of tardiness when they build up, or staying longer), but no, I am not going to pull myself through the same time "stress" I generally reserve only for flights and opera.

 

It is not worth my potentially fatal rushing through the traffic. It is not worth my nerves and stress of getting out of the house an hour earlier as though it is a Crucial Thing that cannot be missed and worrying about when I should come.

 

I am an extremely organized person in practically all aspects of life, except when it comes to time. There, I willingly cut myself some slack. The ONE area where I do it. I will not cut myself some slack professionally, in terms of actual profession (rather than fancy "package" of timely presentation or whatnot, but rather when it comes to what I actually intend to teach). I will take my job "home" with me if needed, do an extra (unpaid) effort to provide you with more and think how I can meet your needs better, do a whole lot of "extras" which come in handy (once I found a safe place to stay for the whole summer abroad for the sake of language learning, in a nice family that I knew, to one of my students, free of charge other than travel costs, only in exchange for some small household help there which they needed and for which they could normally hire somebody local without giving a kid from abroad room and board).

 

I do not care about formalities in this field, I really LOVE what I do and have a passion for it. I will never cut the lesson on the minute because "time is up" (I have been known to stay for much longer, totally free of charge, if discussion went interesting and the student had time). I will never allow your mistakes to go uncorrected because I am lazy to do it (yes, many do it out of laziness, pretending they did not hear you well). I will create for you, in my free non-lesson time and thus not paid, a unique program to meet your specific needs. I will never refuse a paper which is 8 pages or which is 15 pages because, oh, the range is 10-12, and God forbid you slightly walk out of the prescribed range. Nor am I likely to fuss about a paper handed in two days later. I will lend you my own books, get you home to see editions which I am maybe not comfortable to lend you, but I will open my home to you to work there if you wish. The chances are, you will walk out of it fed too. Furthermore, if applicable, I will connect you with people who research topics you are interested in. I will get you personalized free city tours if you happen to go somewhere where I know somebody who is willing to help you with your specific interests. (Heck, people have in the past ended up invited to eat for free in restaurants, as guests in other people's homes, got to use other people's library cards, etc.) Whatever I can possibly do for people I taught, I really take much initiative and go beyond all reasonable expectations to help them.

 

Sometimes it is not really about money either. Some stuff I did were basically pro bono, averaged over the long run. I did not discontinue lessons in one case where the student lost the ability to pay, nor did I ask her to "repay" that to me in any way (in work or anything). She was interested, I loved her passion in learning, my kids adored her, and I said to heck with it. Had months of free weekly or bi-weekly (as time allowed) lessons in my house and in addition to that got about a dozen free books as I wanted to get rid of some extra copies and got a culinary class once :D with being fed a few other times too.

 

And the ONLY thing I want in return is to extend me back the grace of not getting worked up over such practical life formalities either, being that I am so willing to step out of the "business only" mentality too when it comes to private lessons. After all, it is at most 15 minutes (out of 60 or 90, go figure, not that I am robbing you half a lesson), you will probably get it back free doubled anyway, whether right away or we just make one of the following classes free, and I am doing it anyway primarily out of hopeless idealism that there is place for real education in this world too, rather than for any serious financial profit myself.

 

In situations like that, to refuse such people exclusively on the grounds of tardiness seems really like an ego problem to me more than anything else. No, your lessons are not the most important thing to me; on the other hand, I am willing to pull in much more work than an average teacher, I am usually much more qualified (if abroad), and I am just willing to extend it to a whole another level past rigid formalities if there is a mutual will to do so. The chances are, you can only profit. There is only this ONE small professional defect you have to swallow, and that is that I am just not too much of a "formalist" when it comes to punctuality. But I am still not overboard in my view. Give me my up-to-15 minutes. For all of that above, I just want the lack of time stress because I do not cope well with that particular "box" unless absolutely necessary, and I do not wish to make my whole life into one big chore. So give me my extra few minutes so I can be relaxed, so I can smile, so my eyes can shine from the love of what I do, so I can be perfectly concentrated and in my best shape, without feeling stressed and confined.

 

15 freakin' minutes. Really. Sometimes I marvel at the inflexibility regarding the small stuff in life. I am often downright inflexible on the BIG stuff - academic honesty and proper criteria, no grade inflation game, no lowering the standards and honest feedback, tons of patience with learners and the ability to consider their specific needs, nice working atmosphere, my own responsibility in filling my own gaps if I find any or taking care of my teaching gaps if I find any and cannot reach a particular student... - but on the small stuff in life? People came at 5.15 rather than at 5? The kid spent 5€ more we agreed upon on some item? Give me a break, I would end up totally crazy if I overthought those stuff in addition to all the stuff I do overthink in life. Not worth sweating it IMO. As long as the "violations" of the norm are not severe, those can as well be semi-regular occurances as far as I am concerned. I do not interpret it as a lack of respect towards me or my money or my time or anything like that. I am offended when somebody repeatedly takes advantage on me BIG time (showing up at 6 rather than at 5, spending 50€ more rather than 5€, etc... you know, a whole different order of magnitude) and I cannot swallow that unless those are really extreme rare situations. But little small changes in schedule? Meh. People are imperfect, and I interpret schedules generally as relatively strict guidelines rather than an absolute law fixed in stone and worth getting so upset about.

 

And I am really that late only about 1/3 of the time. Maybe even 1/4. I just want my peace of mind not to have another source of stress in my life so I emphasize it in advance.

Edited May 20, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Haiku]

 

 

Doctors have professional schedulers who should be able to gauge how much time is needed per patient. Let's be real.

 

I am being real. I want my healthcare based on what the real situation is, not on what some "professional scheduler" who doesn't know me and will never meet me guesstimates. I give doctors a pass because no one really knows what is going to walk into their office. I have chronically ill kids and I pay out the @$$ for health insurance. You'd better bet that when I walk into that office, I expect that doctor to give me the time and attention I need to have all my questions, concerns, and issues attended to.

 

I would consider it highly UNprofessional for a doctor to cut a patient off in the middle of a visit because they have to stick to their schedule. And while we're being real, let's not forget that insurance companies reimburse doctors for their time in pre-alloted chunks. Doctors are not encouraged to be generous with their time.

 

Tara

[Jean in Newcastle]

Ester, it sounds like you have a very close relationship with your students. Obviously, with that kind of relationship, your students do not mind your time schedule.

[Haiku]

what I perceive as totally minor

 

It's a difference in perceptions, clearly.

 

It is not worth my potentially fatal rushing through the traffic.

 

You're completely right. It's not. But don't ignore the fact that a lot of people manage to be on time without that potentially fatal traffic rush.

 

Like I said, I don't generally get het up about it (except for that one guy I dated whose tardiness disrupted my life to such a great degree that I finally gave him the heave-ho because I didn't want to live in his chronically late world), but you flat-out admitted that you can be on time when you bother to be but that you usually don't bother.

 

In situations like that, to refuse such people exclusively on the grounds of tardiness seems really like an ego problem to me more than anything else.

 

Maybe it's just a personality thing. I don't like lateness. If I can avoid it, I will, just as you choose to avoid stressing about being on time.

 

I think chronic tardines is both a personality thing and an inconsideration thing (in general, not you specifically). You can explain it all you want, but some people will regard it as rude regardless of what you say. Just sayin'.

 

Tara

Edited May 20, 2011 by TaraTheLiberator

[Haiku]

duplicate post

[cindergretta]

15 freakin' minutes. Really. Sometimes I marvel at the inflexibility regarding the small stuff in life. I am often downright inflexible on the BIG stuff - academic honesty and proper criteria, no grade inflation game, no lowering the standards and honest feedback, tons of patience with learners and the ability to consider their specific needs, nice working atmosphere, my own responsibility in filling my own gaps if I find any or taking care of my teaching gaps if I find any and cannot reach a particular student... - but on the small stuff in life? People came at 5.15 rather than at 5? The kid spent 5€ more we agreed upon on some item? Give me a break, I would end up totally crazy if I overthought those stuff in addition to all the stuff I do overthink in life. Not worth sweating it IMO. As long as the "violations" of the norm are not severe, those can as well be semi-regular occurances as far as I am concerned. I do not interpret it as a lack of respect towards me or my money or my time or anything like that. I am offended when somebody repeatedly takes advantage on me BIG time (showing up at 6 rather than at 5, spending 50€ more rather than 5€, etc... you know, a whole different order of magnitude) and I cannot swallow that unless those are really extreme rare situations. But little small changes in schedule? Meh. People are imperfect, and I interpret schedules generally as relatively strict guidelines rather than an absolute law fixed in stone and worth getting so upset about.

 

 

:iagree: Life is full of real things for me to worry about and/or be upset about. An arbitrary (rigid) schedule is NOT one of them for me. I worry about making ends meet and the health & education of my dc. I couldn't care less if people are (even habitually) 10 or 15 minutes late.

 

I have to confess to being literally BLOWN AWAY at the negative intent assigned to tardiness/lateness. Wow. Lazy, inconsiderate, self - important, and so on and so forth. Good heavens! Do people who run late steal candy from babies and knock old ladies out of the way, too??

 

It may very well be a learned skill, but so are cooking and playing the piano. And let's face it, even learned, some are *clearly* better than others. So while it may be something one here thinks is earth - endingly important and learned, that doesn't mean everyone can and will learn it to that degree and with that level of competence.

[cindergretta]

, but some people will regard it as rude regardless of what you say. Just sayin'.

 

Tara

 

And some people won't. Just sayin'.

[Haiku]

And some people won't. Just sayin'.

 

Yes, that's what the phrase "some people" means. If I meant all people, I would have said "all people." My point was that for those who don't understand how someone could possibly interpret their lateness as rudeness, well, some will. There seemed to be some surprise on this thread that people interpret lateness as rudeness.

 

Tara

[cindergretta]

Because for those for whom it isn't rude, we would be surprised to learn that not only is it considered rude, but the people who are chronically late also have all kinds of negative connotations assigned to them. There is also a "feel" throughout the thread that being on time makes one superior to one who isn't on time. If it matters that much to any given person, please, be as on time as you wish, socialize only with those who can also be as on time as you wish, and hire only people who can be as on time as you wish. But quit assuming such negative things about those for whom this is a non - issue and not worth a stroke over. ;) We find each other and are quite happy in our "ish" lives, not feeling stress over every passing minute! :tongue_smilie:

[Ginevra]

Quite often these things are less than perfectly predictable, especially if traffic is involved and you live in a city... and I am frankly not one of those that are going to get all worked up in a hurry and create a potential chaos on the road just because they fear they are going late. So, if I already happen to be potentially late, but that can still be compensated by greater speed, I am just not going to do it. I will remain calm, with the "nothing is that important" attitude.

 

I really, really dislike the "time stress". It physically upsets me and that is NOT good (especially if you are panicking and might drive, or disturbed and disoriented while you should be perfectly concentrated on the work for maximum productivity) and I just cut myself some slack because of that.

 

Ester Maria, I'm not saying you should rush and hurry, freak out and cause a near-accident to be somewhere at 5:00 and not 5:15. I just don't understand why continuously-tardy people can't plan around that. I am very rarely late to anything that matters and I almost never rush or hurry. I just plan plenty of time. I know how long it takes to get the places I need to be and I build in additional time for situating kids, carrying materials, signing in to classrooms or whatever the situation calls for. If, despite my planning, something unusual happens and I'm in a 5-mile-backup on a shut-down highway, well, at that point, I agree - there's nothing to be stressed out about. It can't be helped. But for ordinary situations, it's hardly ever a problem to arrive 15 minutes early to anything. If you are so okay with "15 minutes - BIG deal" then why not put the 15 minutes on the front end? You have adjusted your mentality to accept lateness, so you won't put the 15 minutes at the front end. Obviously, that is totally your prerogative and if your clients accept it, well, then that's for them to decide. You did ask earlier what people thought of it and I'm answering you.

 

It does sound like you are a great teacher and I would certainly be happy about that, but if you said what you're saying in this thread, I would consider it a major detraction. You are spelling it out that you can't really consider being early in order to prevent being late and I wouldn't like it. Telling me in advance that you are frequently late would not make me more agreeable to it. Truly one of my major peeves is when people chuckle and say they simply cannot be on time, don't expect it of them, ha-ha they are just always late. It's a load of bull. If someone can get there at 9:15, they can get there at 9:00.

[SailorMom]

To add to the thread that will never die....

 

I have yet to hear a comment on my example of the late/no-show families at the museum that I typed in a few (many) pages ago by anyone who claims that tardiness is pretty much ok.

 

I would (not sarcastically) like to hear the response those of you who do not see the "big deal" about tardiness about this example. I say this, because this is only ONE example out of MANY I could give here that justify completely many of "we the puctual"'s feelings about tardiness being rude and inconsiderate.

 

I would also like to hear a response about the feedback I have gotten from places like theaters and museums regarding the scheduling of homeschool events: many will no longer do them, or hesitate, due to the lateness and "percieved" rudeness they have experienced with homeschooling groups as a whole.

 

I am punctual - 99.9% of the time. I do not speed. I do not "freak out", I do not stress. I simply only schedule things that I know I have time for and that I know I can be on time for. I leave myself enough time, and plan ahead. If stopping to get a soda at a drive thorugh, making one last call, or chekcing my email one more time is going to make me late (or could possibly make me late) I simply don't do it out of consideration for the people I am meeting.

 

I can tell you as a former coach, a Cub Scout leader, a CubMaster, homeschool group coordinator, and Committee Chair of a Troop - I refuse to accept that being late all the time is ok (at least in my home country of the USA). It is very disruptive, disrespectful, and rude. This is not because I have a huge ego - it is because I spend a lot of time planning and working on the activities that I am responsible for. When people are late or don't show up consistently, that shows me that A) they have no idea how much work I do for them and their kids, or B) they simply don't care.

 

Again - take this in context. I have a very good friend that is late all the time. We know it, but she is like a sister to me, so I plan around her. I am talking about lateness in situations that involve more than close friends.

Edited May 20, 2011 by SailorMom

[cindergretta]

Hey, I was/am a den leader for 5+ years, Sunday School teacher, VBS teacher, etc., etc. Honestly, it doesn't bother me when folks show up late. If we have a plan, we do what we are doing and when people get there, they jump right in. Not showing up at all (without calling and letting anyone know) is different from being late, IMO. If there are people that are chronically late and you know it, what is the big deal? You know they are late most of the time. Do what you are doing and they will fall in when they get there. Not showing up is totally different. Then you are waiting for someone who you think is coming but who never actually does.

 

And for all those who build in all this extra time to account for every eventuality, you get there 15 minutes early and are now sitting and waiting. Why is that so superior to sitting and waiting 15 minutes on the other side to allow grace for someone who struggles with punctuality?

 

All in all, I find the whole thing kind of silly. Strict schedule keepers probably generally gravitate to strict schedule keepers. Relaxed folks probably gravitate to relaxed folks. I have no strict schedulers in my life and after reading this thread, I am more grateful than ever for that!! :chillpill: (And I would like to reiterate that we are more often on time than ever late. :) )

[Virg]

My parents were ALWAYS late. I was embarrassed to always be 20-30 min late for Sunday School. Sometimes I would hide in the bathroom because I hated to walk in that late. My parents routinely picked me up 60 min late from swim practice. I hated it.

 

I always try to be on my time. It upsets me and I stress and yell until the twins are in the car on time. Then I got married. My husband makes us late to everything. No amount of begging or pleading gets us out the door on time. He just laughs it off and says he is on CPT (colored-people time) and we will only be a minute or two late. We aren't. It is later than that. I hope people don't think I am lazy and inconsiderate :( According to this thread I am sure they do though.

 

All that being said it really doesn't bother me when others are not on time for most things. I never think they are rude are don't care about me. I just have a serious issue with walking in late.

[keptwoman]

Do you really think this is what chronically late people think? With few exceptions, everyone I know who struggles with punctuality is truly sorry and anxious about this. But, they really haven't figured out how to manage it. Just like "born organized" people simply don't understand how others can struggle with organization, "born punctual" people don't understand why others struggle with being on time. Unfortunately, I was "born neither."

 

When I was little, I was always yelled at about how long it took me to get out the door. Every day, it was a screaming match to get us all to school. I wasn't late to school, but it sure was stressful. I was rarely late for work but it was always rush, rush, rush.

 

There were times in my life where my lateness was due to fatigue - I didn't have the energy to get going and it was only the adrenaline of being late that got me going. I HATED that about me, but felt powerless about it. I hated that my children would manage to have blowout poops as we were walking out the door (10 minutes early, on time, 5 minutes late, it didn't matter.) I simply could not force them to poop earlier.

 

But, for most of my life, it has been due to difficulty with time management - consistently underestimate how long things will take. The anxiety I feel about being late is probably equal to the annoyance others felt about waiting for me.

 

Now that my kids are older, we do better about getting places on time - partially because, as I near 50 years old, I think I finally get what I need to do to make it happen (setting timers, getting more things done the night before, letting the phone ring as I am leaving, not doing that "one more thing"), and partially because my kids are better about helping us all get out the door.

:iagree::iagree: This is me, I am always late. I do try, I try hard, but something always comes up, I always underestimate how long things will take. I'm always yelling at the kids because I asked them 30 mins before we had to leave to get their gear together and they wait until 5 minutes before, I guess it's catching. Gaaaaaah. Having said that, I'm totally adopting the "load time" approach, because it's always getting out the door when things go wrong.

 

Doctors are different. They have good reason to be late. I want my and my children's health given all the attention it deserves, too. Doctors have emergencies.

And any good doctor will have spare appointments built in so that the lateness doesn't drag all through the day and catching up is possible. I bet that every day doctors have appointments that go over and emergencies, and they can absolutely schedule for those. Many don't. For a chronic latie, this is my one bonnet-bee, I will not stay with a doctor who runs more than 10 mins late on a regular basis, they need to manage their time better. My doctor is always bang on time, and I am always on time to see her.

 

DH went to a doctor once, asked for the first appointment of the day, and the doctor was AN HOUR late. DH went to reception to tell them he was leaving and was told the doctors time was valuable, his reply was that his was too and if they wanted to push the point he would bill them his hourly rate. He never went back.

 

 

Because for those for whom it isn't rude, we would be surprised to learn that not only is it considered rude, but the people who are chronically late also have all kinds of negative connotations assigned to them. There is also a "feel" throughout the thread that being on time makes one superior to one who isn't on time. If it matters that much to any given person, please, be as on time as you wish, socialize only with those who can also be as on time as you wish, and hire only people who can be as on time as you wish. But quit assuming such negative things about those for whom this is a non - issue and not worth a stroke over. ;) We find each other and are quite happy in our "ish" lives, not feeling stress over every passing minute! :tongue_smilie:

:iagree::iagree: I'm also totally with you on being blown away at the extreme reactions to this. Who knew that I was such a rude, disrespectful, inconsiderate person. Thank goodness for wonderful friends who love me regardless!!

 

To add to the thread that will never die....

 

I have yet to hear a comment on my example of the late/no-show families at the museum that I typed in a few (many) pages ago by anyone who claims that tardiness is pretty much ok.

I agree with you that that was beyond rude. To just not show is the height of rudeness. I also believe in full puncuality for outings where a group booking has been made with a start time, I fully believe that in those situations, it should start without latecomers. And yes, it's the same here, homeschoolers can get a bit of a rep for being annoying to deal with in this regards. I'm always scrupulous about being on time for excursions because it makes all homeschoolers look bad when I'm not. Having said that, to be on time I get up at the crack of dawn and stress to the point of migraine to make it, but I do it because it must be done.

[CanaryMelody]

:iagree: Life is full of real things for me to worry about and/or be upset about. An arbitrary (rigid) schedule is NOT one of them for me. I worry about making ends meet and the health & education of my dc. I couldn't care less if people are (even habitually) 10 or 15 minutes late.

 

I have to confess to being literally BLOWN AWAY at the negative intent assigned to tardiness/lateness. Wow. Lazy, inconsiderate, self - important, and so on and so forth. Good heavens! Do people who run late steal candy from babies and knock old ladies out of the way, too??

 

It may very well be a learned skill, but so are cooking and playing the piano. And let's face it, even learned, some are *clearly* better than others. So while it may be something one here thinks is earth - endingly important and learned, that doesn't mean everyone can and will learn it to that degree and with that level of competence.

 

I am blown away as well. I am chronically late (meaning ~15min). I can plan in all the extra time in the world and somehow, someway I am still always late. Even when I am actually in the car with kids all buckled in and we are running ahead of schedule, something always happens (car accidents, every single traffic light is red, unexpected construction/lane closures, etc.) and I still end up being late. No joke. (I sure wish it was!)

 

But I am not purposely late to be disrespectful, rude, lazy, etc. That may be the perception but that's not the reality for many people who are chronically late.

 

I think it's sad w/ all the hard & evil things in the world to make punctuality an issue of respect & selfishness. We all know that there are plenty of people who qualify as scum who are extremely punctual. Death, for ex, is rarely late.

 

:iagree: :iagree:

[eternalknot]

Do you consider punctuality to be essentially a personality trait that some people have and some don't, or do you consider it more of a life skill that should be learned and developed, regardless of personal preferences or inclinations? Some combination of the two? Neither?

 

:bigear:

 

I skimmed pages in this thread. I agree with those who first consider the culture of the 'offender' ~ Asians are notoriously late, but it's not a big deal to us.

 

I'm running late 50% of the time, usually 10-15 minutes. It's not because I don't value the other person's time. It's not because I'm over-scheduled. It's not because I have poor time management. It's not because I'm an egoist who wants attention for my late show. It's because I'm the poster child for Murphy's Law; when my punctuality is important, a million things will go wrong one right after another. And after I finally get out the door, I'll hit every light along the way, plus a funeral procession and then I'll get stuck behind a cop. Just how it goes for me LOL.

 

I have a SIL who is extremely punctual. Never early, never late, just always exactly on time. She intrigues me. We drive her crazy! If the family has planned a gathering, she always asks: "Is this real time, or Aloha Time?" so she can plan accordingly. Aloha Time means add 1-2 hours to the stated planned start time :)

 

Short answer: sometimes cultural, sometimes personality, always a life skill to be worked on

Edited May 20, 2011 by eternalknot

[Ester Maria]

I am punctual - 99.9% of the time. I do not speed. I do not "freak out", I do not stress. I simply only schedule things that I know I have time for and that I know I can be on time for. I leave myself enough time, and plan ahead. If stopping to get a soda at a drive thorugh, making one last call, or chekcing my email one more time is going to make me late (or could possibly make me late) I simply don't do it out of consideration for the people I am meeting.

Great for you. :) Really - I am not being sarcastic.

 

I am just relaxed. I will not purposely do any of those things to waste some more time, but I will not purposely not do them either, if I am not already late in that moment. I try to come on time and generally plan to come on time, give or take a few minutes.

Assuming an attitude that I have to be on time or before, that I must always get out of the house early, micromanaging of that type in advance = stress. Generally, for me, micromanaging = stress. Because of that, I love things "ish" in practical daily life. But I am not terribly slow or inefficient - far from it. I love my tempo to be about andante, even on its lower edge, that nice free flow of life. Some people prefer vivace as their general flow of life (must be all those people with so packed up schedules that 15 minutes delay really messes up with their plans).

 

Can I speed myself up? Like I said, volendo, I could, I am not denying that. But I have found that this is my overall optimal pace in life regarding stress levels, my personal joy and happiness, and combining that with needed efficiency. After all, things get done, in quite a timely fashion in fact, but without so much rigidity.

 

Rigidity can be great, but in other things; rigidity for the sake of rigidity in small everyday stuff? To count each euro, to scrutinize each minute, to count each word? Something in me really resists that idea. I know, a sacrilege to many people reading this, probably, but that is how I feel. I like being practical and efficient, but at the same time I like to feel I am given a bit of leeway. So this tempo is perfect for me, a perfect combination of efficiency which is usually no lesser than that of a punctual person, yet with enough of a leeway for my own peace of mind and lack of that feeling of being "trapped".

This is not because I have a huge ego - it is because I spend a lot of time planning and working on the activities that I am responsible for. When people are late or don't show up consistently, that shows me that A) they have no idea how much work I do for them and their kids, or B) they simply don't care.

But this is exactly ego you are talking about, if I read it correctly. You are disturbed by people not caring - quite often nothing hurts one's ego more than indifference. But why does that indifference bug you? They have a right to an emotional indifference, that has always been my stace. As long as people fulfill formal requirements (in terms of papers, homeworks, whatnot, and of course exams), what do I care if they care? It may flatter me if they care, it may be a very strong message to me... but if they do not, honey, they do not. And it is okay. They are not necessarily bad and rude people. They also do not "have" to appreciate all the work you do. It is great if you "click" with them so they do, but if they do not - they do not... Their right. The stuff you are talking about are exactly ego stuff. If you opted to work with those people, and if there is no explicit agreement that a certain number of late arrivals or absences gets you kicked out of the class / club / whatever, that is just something to put up with. It really is okay that somebody puts other things first and that you will not be number one priority, but would also like to taste a bit of what you offer, if possible. I view it this way, as something that really is fine, if we are talking about a paid job without such regulations about expelling participants. I do understand that it ruins your little picture, and I sympathize as I know how irritated (toddler-like at times, in fact) I can feel when something ruins my little picture. But if there is a deal they are not technically breaking, it really is okay.

 

Just like it is really okay if I forewarn people that I have a tendency of being late and they agree to those working conditions. It does not make me rude, inconsiderate, irresponsible, etc. People know what they are agreeing to. I find tardiness per se to be perfectly morally neutral, culture-dependent and context-dependent. If we are on the same page regarding the culture or we agreed on certain things in our context, I just fail to see what is wrong.

[CanaryMelody]

I agree with you that that was beyond rude. To just not show is the height of rudeness. I also believe in full puncuality for outings where a group booking has been made with a start time, I fully believe that in those situations, it should start without latecomers. And yes, it's the same here, homeschoolers can get a bit of a rep for being annoying to deal with in this regards. I'm always scrupulous about being on time for excursions because it makes all homeschoolers look bad when I'm not. Having said that, to be on time I get up at the crack of dawn and stress to the point of migraine to make it, but I do it because it must be done.

 

I'll take it one step further in saying while I do try my very best to arrive at a group booking on time, if I am late I fully expect 1) they should have started without me and 2) if we can't join in because we are late that this is *my* consequence for not having my act together that day. I wouldn't expect a refund or anything. I have to just deal with it. Having said that, like Sandra, I also will get up before sunrise and stress all morning until we are actually there. I find it *extremely* stressful trying to get anywhere on time to the point of me having headaches, nausea, etc. :o

[Ginevra]

And for all those who build in all this extra time to account for every eventuality, you get there 15 minutes early and are now sitting and waiting. Why is that so superior to sitting and waiting 15 minutes on the other side to allow grace for someone who struggles with punctuality?

)

 

Because if the agreed-upon start time is 1:00, I hurt nothing by being there at 12:45 (if I even am...the whole reason to plan for possible delays is that they happen). In many settings, being there a little bit early also means that I can help set up/get ready for whatever is happening. If it's somewhere that I will literally just wait (say, a hair appointment) I have probably brought a book for that and I can accomplish something worthwhile during the extra few minutes.

 

I will say that I am speaking more about professional constructs or classes/appointments, etc., not a picnic or a park day. There are social settings where clearly it doesn't matter if you're 15 minutes late. I'm not talking about those. I am in a Bunco group and it supposedly starts at 7:00, but coming at 7 is preposterous at this point. After all the years of moms who had to come late because of scouts, baseball, soccer, swimming, work, school, college, whatever, nobody really starts coming until around 8:00. And if you have a group like that, where you know and agree that you mean 12-ish, that's no problem. I'm totally fine in that construct when that is the construct.

 

But classes, appointments, lessons, meetings, sports games, any work-related construct, co-op, field trips, any setting where others are expecting *A* particular time to begin - they all require punctuality and IMO, it is a sign of weak character to just laugh it off and throw up your hands about it, rather than make a meaningful effort to get a handle on your time-management abilities.

 

I have been to field trips numerous times where 15 people were expected and 3 showed up. I have heard a heap of tales about homeschoolers arriving an HOUR late for a field trip. I think that is rude, yes. If I were organizing the field trip and I had to begin at a particular time, I would begin at that time, even if I was the only person standing there. If you demonstrate that you will wait for an hour for this field trip, you prove that you will do it again in the future, which is not a dynamic I would ever want to set up.