Been reading "Have a New Kid by Friday..."

[CAMom]

And I don't get it.:confused:

 

I'm reading it after the advice I received last time with regards to my out of control 5 year old.

 

He says to, "Say it once, turn your back and walk away." Ummm...what am I missing? I'm trying that and this child is shouting, throwing things, trying to break things and hitting me.

 

This morning I gave him a bunch of attention. Did school work with him, etc. All I asked him to do was 10 jumping jacks to burn off some energy because he's been sitting doing about 20 minutes worth of seat type work. He refused to do the jumping jacks. Just said, "NO! I'm not going to do that!"

 

I said, "You must obey me and there will be no lunch or anything else until you obey."

 

He hit me with his nerf gun so I took it from him without saying a word. He got his blow up globe and threw it at me so I took it from him, took the air out of it and put it out of reach without saying a word. He started throwing things at me. He tried destroying a chair.

 

How do you just turn your back and walk away when your child is trying to destroy furniture?:001_huh:

 

What do I do next?:confused:

[melissel]

:grouphug:

 

:bigear:

 

I haven't read this book, but the book Setting Limits With Your Strong-Willed Child really resonated with me. (Also paying more attention to what she was eating--not sure if you've tried all that yet...)

[Carol in Cal.]

And I don't get it.:confused:

 

I'm reading it after the advice I received last time with regards to my out of control 5 year old.

 

He says to, "Say it once, turn your back and walk away." Ummm...what am I missing? I'm trying that and this child is shouting, throwing things, trying to break things and hitting me.

 

This morning I gave him a bunch of attention. Did school work with him, etc. All I asked him to do was 10 jumping jacks to burn off some energy because he's been sitting doing about 20 minutes worth of seat type work. He refused to do the jumping jacks. Just said, "NO! I'm not going to do that!"

 

I said, "You must obey me and there will be no lunch or anything else until you obey."

 

He hit me with his nerf gun so I took it from him without saying a word. He got his blow up globe and threw it at me so I took it from him, took the air out of it and put it out of reach without saying a word. He started throwing things at me. He tried destroying a chair.

 

How do you just turn your back and walk away when your child is trying to destroy furniture?:001_huh:

 

What do I do next?:confused:

 

 

It sounds like you handled this better than the book would have done. Did you stay calm throughout? When you're making a change like this, you really have to stay with it--things will get worse at first, and then suddenly better. But you sound like you're doing exactly right. Hang in there!

[blondeviolin]

I think I've read my entire library system's stock of strong-willed child books and cried when I couldn't figure out what was WRONG with my son. You know what book helped? Aaron's Way. It is not a book about how to parent, just a book to commiserate with you that there ARE other parents out there who have children like this. Also, they mention the things they did to understand him, but also really TEACH him to obey. Very eye-opening because the son (Aaron) writes his feelings as to why he did such things and it gave me a real insight. Did it give me new techniques? No. But it let me know I wasn't alone and that I wasn't messing it up. And that is invaluable.

 

:hug:

[CAMom]

It sounds like you handled this better than the book would have done. Did you stay calm throughout? When you're making a change like this, you really have to stay with it--things will get worse at first, and then suddenly better. But you sound like you're doing exactly right. Hang in there!

 

Thanks for the encouragement but he is still not obeying what I asked and now walked up and punched me in the ribs. What does this author suggest then?

 

And, yes, I was calm throughout.

[melissel]

Thanks for the encouragement but he is still not obeying what I asked and now walked up and punched me in the ribs. What does this author suggest then?

 

And, yes, I was calm throughout.

 

I'm sorry, I don't know your whole situation. Have you had him evaluated for anything? Played around with food intolerances? All that stuff?

[celticmom]

Long term consequences that she really does not like is what it took to get through to my daughter. She gets put on screen and sweets restriction for a week at a time. If she misbehaves another week is added. The first time it took about six weeks of restriction before she realized that there would be consequences. She was 5 when we started this approach.

[T'smom]

I don't know. But I can commiserate. I have one just like that- only he's 3. I've been just putting him in his room and letting him scream (and kick the door and throw things, etc.) Not doing a great job of working so far. I was actually thinking of getting this book. I did a bible study by the same author not too long ago and liked it. This morning as we were leaving a mom's group at church, he threw a fit in the parking lot and tried to refuse to get in the car. It would've been easier to handle, except that I was holding an 8 month old in one arm and couldn't set her down to deal with him. I also couldn't let go of him because I was afraid he'd run into the street! I'll be watching this thread to see if anyone has any good advice.

[Carol in Cal.]

Thanks for the encouragement but he is still not obeying what I asked and now walked up and punched me in the ribs. What does this author suggest then?

 

And, yes, I was calm throughout.

 

I don't know that book.

 

If it were me, though, and a child came up and punched me in the ribs, my response would be, "People are special, we don't hurt people. Now, I told you to do some jumping jacks, and you can do them right now or I will help you do them. Which do you pick?" and I would follow through. (BTW, in a circumstance like this, it's really really important not to give orders that you can't enforce, just for a while, until they learn the inevitability of obedience). (And I would literally move him through the jumping jack moves, even though this would not necessarily really exercise him--I'd pull his arms up and down if I had to. The point here is not to have him get that exercise (although that was the point originally) but rather to show him that when I tell him what to do, then one way or another he will do it.) After that, I would say something like, you must be alone if you can't be with people without hurting them. You hit me, and now you must sit alone and calm down. And I'd put him on a chair and make him stay there for about 5 minutes. Then I would ask him whether he was ready to stop himself from hurting others, and tell him that he had to think of something specially nice to do for me to help me feel better since he had hurt me. Again, I would follow through.

 

This sounds really lengthy, but it would happen very quickly. And if it didn't work I would do it again and again. Time outs can be on the floor--"You sit down, right there, until I tell you you can get up." They must be boring, and they must be under your control.

 

If I spanked, I would spank for these things you have mentioned. But I generally don't. Defiance, though, is the the second spankable offense (the first is safety). But I have always tried to avoid it, although I don't think it's necessarily wrong all the time, so that's why I'm not suggesting it.

 

The thing is, the kid has to learn that you are She Who Must Be Obeyed, and to teach that you have to be consistent and clear over a period of time. And you have to respond in the moment, calmly but immediately. Pick your battles but win every single one.

 

I think that you're doing really well, but that this will take a concerted effort probably over several weeks.

 

It takes a long time to instill this, and it doesn't work with every child. Kids who are on the spectrum and can't generalize often can't learn this way. But other than that and maybe RAD, I don't know of children who can't learn this way.

 

The other thing to pay attention to is rest and diet. Self-control is assisted by being well-rested and well-fed.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[Jeanne in MN]

I hesitate to say much because I do not know if he's just been allowed to act this way or if he has other issues going on.

 

One thing that does stand out, that I'm not sure you grasp, is this will not be a one day ordeal. He has a behavior that will most likely take days and days to change. Even then, he will try and push the boundaries every so often. He's being met with resistance from you and he's not used to that happening evidentally. It's going to get worse before it gets better. He's going to push you to see how serious you are about not allowing his behavior.

 

Have you ever watched Supper Nanny? Not that she's the end all child-rearing guru, but I think she has some solid insight. She uses time outs, tell the child what they did wrong, put them in time out, if the chld leaves, place them back in time out and do that over and over and over as many times as needed to show them you mean it. DO NOT SPEAK while this is going on. When they have finally managed to stay in time out for their allotted time, remind them again why they were put in time out and that their behavior was not acceptable. Encourage an apology, hug and move on. But nip bad behaviors in the bud and be strong!

 

Best of luck to you!

[Sevilla]

That sounds over the top.

 

Do you know how to do the Bear Hug to restrain them? With very aggressive/physical chidlren, that can be an important component of discipline and boundaries because if they're lashing out that way it's not safe for anyone, and they need to be stopped from engaging in those things.

 

I just googled for a description and found a Google ebook that talks about a chair restraint instead (holding their wrists). I've never used it nor read the book, so I cannot say whether I recommend it or not. You would have to judge whether it is something that fits within your parenting paradigm.

[CAMom]

I hesitate to say much because I do not know if he's just been allowed to act this way or if he has other issues going on.

 

One thing that does stand out, that I'm not sure you grasp, is this will not be a one day ordeal. He has a behavior that will most likely take days and days to change. Even then, he will try and push the boundaries every so often. He's being met with resistance from you and he's not used to that happening evidentally. It's going to get worse before it gets better. He's going to push you to see how serious you are about not allowing his behavior.

 

Have you ever watched Supper Nanny? Not that she's the end all child-rearing guru, but I think she has some solid insight. She uses time outs, tell the child what they did wrong, put them in time out, if the chld leaves, place them back in time out and do that over and over and over as many times as needed to show them you mean it. DO NOT SPEAK while this is going on. When they have finally managed to stay in time out for their allotted time, remind them again why they were put in time out and that their behavior was not acceptable. Encourage an apology, hug and move on. But nip bad behaviors in the bud and be strong!

 

Best of luck to you!

 

Oh I grasp that it's not a one day thing. :) We've been struggling with this kid since the day he was born!

 

I'm also a good parent.:D I have two older children who were very good when they were this age. They never, ever, ever would have dreamed of telling me "no," hitting me or anything else. These kids used to get compliments from random strangers in public. So it's not like I'm a permissive parent who lets my kids run amock. ;)

 

This child is a whole different animal. None of the techniques I used with my older kids work with him. I could easily put my older two in time out when they were little. This child will not stay in time out! He just gets right up. I put him back, he gets up. This can literally go on for hours.

 

I'm exhausted and I'm discouraged. He's extremely bright, funny, etc. but he has this strong will that I cannot crack. I just don't know what to do anymore.:confused:

[twoforjoy]

I can so relate. I have an incredibly strong-willed child who can get very destructive when upset.

 

I have had the exact same issue with so many parenting books. The advice seems good in theory, but my son does NOT react the way the books seem to expect.

 

I don't walk away, because I need to keep an eye on him, but I do try my best to lay out what he needs to do and what the consequence will be (i.e., he has ten minutes to put his pajamas on and if he doesn't do it in time, he'll lose the extra minutes off of his evening reading time; he needs to do his math before he can have a snack and play), and then just wait him out. I try to stay as calm as possible, and not yell or nag or even mention it again. He knows what he needs to do, and he knows what the consequence is if he doesn't. So if he decides to jump on the bed rather than putting his PJs on, I don't yell at him to stop; I just deduct the time from his reading time. If he wants to spend half an hour whining about math rather than doing it and telling me I'm the meanest mommy in the whole wide world, I just ignore him the best I can, supervise him enough to make sure he isn't starting another activity, and wait him out, because I know at some point he decides it's not worth it and gets back to work.

 

That tends to work for me because otherwise DS and I get into what I think of as the "you cannot do anything fun every again!" spiral. I tell him to do his math. He says no. I tell him to do it again. He says no. I tell him he's lost video games that afternoon for being disrespectful. He starts yelling that I'm the worst mom ever. Soon he's screaming and trying to hit me, and I'm piling on the punishments, and the more punishments I pile on, the madder he gets and the more he lashes out. It just turns into a huge disaster with both of us getting more and more angry and nothing productive coming from it. So, for us, laying out the thing he needs to do and the consequence, and then ignoring him if he dawdles/whines/refuses, works best. (I don't think I could leave the room, though. If he's being destructive, I take away whatever he's using to be destructive, like you did, as calmly as I can and without saying anything.)

 

For really serious things, like hitting, I make sure he knows the consequences in advance. He hits me, and X happens. Then, if he does hit me when he's already really angry, I don't need to come up with a consequence on the spot or even mention the consequence, which would only make him more mad given his mindset at that moment. Instead, I ignore it, and later when he's calmed down I remind him that, because he hit me, consequence X is in place. I actually first figured that one out dealing with my college students. I was always terrible at telling somebody I won't accept their late draft or that they lost a point for being tardy. So I started just putting the policies in my syllabus, and telling them on the first day what the policies were, but that I was not going to tell them every time they have an infraction. If they show up late, I'll smile at them, I won't lecture them, but they're still going to get the point taken off. Same with DS. If he hits me, I'm not going to scream at him and tell him no video games for 24 hours at that moment. And when he's calmed down, we'll hug and I'll tell him I love him and forgive him, and we're all good, and the consequence is just going to be quietly applied without anybody getting worked up about it.

 

This does NOT work perfectly. DS still has LOTS of "those days." But at the very least it keeps me saner than when I felt like I had to respond to his outbursts, and he does seem to be catching on.

 

FWIW, DS has also been like this since day 1. I mean, literally, he was the most stubborn, difficult kid I ever encountered. I thought I was the worst mother in the entire world until I had my DD, who is so different. She's not perfect, but she's just so easy, and she seems naturally inclined to want to please us. So it gave me some confidence that it wasn't entirely my parenting, but partly just DS's temperament (although I know that his temperament and my parenting have not always been the best combination, which is why I need to make such a concerted effort to stay quiet and calm in the face of his misbehavior, because that is NOT how I'm inclined to react).

Edited May 2, 2011 by twoforjoy

[fairfarmhand]

I don't know that book.

 

If it were me, though, and a child came up and punched me in the ribs, my response would be, "People are special, we don't hurt people. Now, I told you to do some jumping jacks, and you can do them right now or I will help you do them. Which do you pick?" and I would follow through. (BTW, in a circumstance like this, it's really really important not to give orders that you can't enforce, just for a while, until they learn the inevitability of obedience). (And I would literally move him through the jumping jack moves, even though this would not necessarily really exercise him--I'd pull his arms up and down if I had to. The point here is not to have him get that exercise (although that was the point originally) but rather to show him that when I tell him what to do, then one way or another he will do it.) After that, I would say something like, you must be alone if you can't be with people without hurting them. You hit me, and now you must sit alone and calm down. And I'd put him on a chair and make him stay there for about 5 minutes. Then I would ask him whether he was ready to stop himself from hurting others, and tell him that he had to think of something specially nice to do for me to help me feel better since he had hurt me. Again, I would follow through.

 

This sounds really lengthy, but it would happen very quickly. And if it didn't work I would do it again and again. Time outs can be on the floor--"You sit down, right there, until I tell you you can get up." They must be boring, and they must be under your control.

 

If I spanked, I would spank for these things you have mentioned. But I generally don't. Defiance, though, is the the second spankable offense (the first is safety). But I have always tried to avoid it, although I don't think it's necessarily wrong all the time, so that's why I'm not suggesting it.

 

The thing is, the kid has to learn that you are She Who Must Be Obeyed, and to teach that you have to be consistent and clear over a period of time. And you have to respond in the moment, calmly but immediately. Pick your battles but win every single one.

 

I think that you're doing really well, but that this will take a concerted effort probably over several weeks.

 

It takes a long time to instill this, and it doesn't work with every child. Kids who are on the spectrum and can't generalize often can't learn this way. But other than that and maybe RAD, I don't know of children who can't learn this way.

 

The other thing to pay attention to is rest and diet. Self-control is assisted by being well-rested and well-fed.

 

this is very good advice. I have the book you mentioned. Some kids take longer to come around, especially if they have had years to build up into the behaviour habits. Sometime time out has to be enforced by mom forcefully holding the child in their laps. (Can you sit in timeout by yourself, or do you need mom's help?) And you know what? I have had time periods where I let EVERYTHING in the house go except the child training. It didn't matter what I was doing, I would immediately drop it for a "child training boot camp."

[LibraryLover]

:grouphug:I have a ton of experience here, but my approach is much different. I don't want to get in a war on the boards about 'permissive' parenting :) I do like The Highly Spirited Child book, and the one for adults. It's not an obedience book, but it does help to understand the inner turmoil issues, and why highly sensitive children push hard back (hitting, throwing) when they feel cornered. We could chat in PMs if you think I might have something to offer.

[meena]

I haven't read that particular book, so I don't know in what situations the author recommends walking away. I do know that it sounds very similar to what I was taught recently in one of the classes DH and I are taking to become licensed foster parents.

 

We were taught that 'junk' behaviors are those which do not pose physical harm to someone/something else, destroy property, etc. In other words, annoying but not harmful. 'Serious' behaviors are those which can potentially harm others, property, etc. For example, whining, most tantruming, and cursing are all considered junk, while hitting, throwing objects, and punching are considered serious.

 

We were told that the two types of behavior are dealt with in different ways. For junk behavior, walk away or otherwise ignore them. When dealing with junk behavior, you may have to wait it out for quite some time for the child to stop but with each instance the time should be less. For serious behavior, stop the behavior and redirect to positive behavior then immediately acknowledge when child chooses positive alternative.

 

Obviously, this was all taught as theory not reality. But I'm mentioning it because it does sound somewhat applicable to your situation. It sounds like you are trying to use the same technique for both 'junk' and 'serious' behaviors. In my opinion (and I fully admit I'm no expert), I would not ignore a child who has hit me, either with an object or with his hands.

 

:grouphug: I really don't have any easy solutions. I do want to say that it sounds like you stayed very thoughtful and calm in the midst of a challenging day.

[mom2denj]

I know that some will take every, I mean every toy, game, etc.... away from the child and he can "earn" them back. Is your husband helping you with this?? I know that my kids would never hit because they would be deealing with daddy. Which is funny because I am the disipilinarian and he is not. I think it is just the fear of the unknown. =) I would try taking it all and giving back with good behavior.

[mom2denj]

By the way, :grouphug:

[LibraryLover]

Hitting is something difficult, and so is the throwing. That can get out of control fast. Smaller children can be held in a gentle/firm, but not hard way, if that makes sense, so that you protect the child, yourself etc from harm. Soothing talk in a montone voice helps some children: "You're ok, we're ok. It's ok. I'm here. No hurting people. You're ok. " For some children this talk is too stimulating. Although most do need some reassurance that the turmoil with end. "You feel terrible right now, but it will be over soon and you will be back to your old self." Nothing is easy with sensitive children. They don't even know why they lose it. I wouldn't ignore the hitting or the throwing. It's good to work on this now, before they get too strong and large to help when they need physical boundaries. Prevention is important. Watching out for escalation, and the 'caged' look of a desperate child is also important. De-escalation is important.

Edited May 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[mom2att]

I feel your pain. Mine is 10 now and much better. Still quirky, but not at all inclined to totally lose it like he was at 4 and 5. Here's what helped me understand my son, and in so doing parent him better:

 

The Explosive Child by Ross W. Greene

 

Raising Your Spirited Child by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka

 

Hang in there!

[LibraryLover]

I wrote Highly Spirted Child, and that's a misthought. ;) The book I mean is The Highly Sensitive Child. Sorry about that.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Highly-Sensitive-Child-Children-Overwhelms/dp/0767908724

 

This type of child is more easily overwhelmed than your garden -variety kid. It's good to know which type of kid you've got. I love this book.

Edited May 2, 2011 by LibraryLover

[KS_]

 

This child is a whole different animal. None of the techniques I used with my older kids work with him. I could easily put my older two in time out when they were little. This child will not stay in time out! He just gets right up. I put him back, he gets up. This can literally go on for hours.

 

I'm exhausted and I'm discouraged. He's extremely bright, funny, etc. but he has this strong will that I cannot crack. I just don't know what to do anymore.:confused:

 

My first child is like this (it scared me enough I was afraid to have a 2nd!). It's been a long road (he just turned 12), but the books Transforming the Difficult Child and The Explosive Child were the most helpful to me out of all the "strong willed child" books I read. I used a modified token economy discussed in Transforming (which we just stopped using last year). The book provided a good framework for me which none of the other books had - a needed some type of system to try to implement because my bits and pieces of techniques weren't effective longterm.

 

And I don't think you should focus on "cracking" his strong will. If he's anything like my ds, he would rather die on whatever issue than give in if he's worked up. It's not cracking his strong will but learning how to help him channel it in a positive and constructive way.

Edited May 2, 2011 by KH_

[LizzyBee]

In addition to all the good advice you've gotten, I would have him evaluated by an occupational therapist for sensory processing disorder. A lot of out-of-control behavior can be caused by SPD.

[LibraryLover]

 

If he's anything like my ds, he would rather die on whatever issue than give in if he's worked up. It's not cracking his strong will but learning how to help him channel it in a positive and constructive way.

 

Yes, I agree.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

The biggest things that have helped us so far are me staying calm, learning his warning signs of aggression, and learning how to restrain him and for how long. I have not been hit by him or an object in almost a year. I have not been bit in about 2 years.

 

I've also learned that my son's aggression is pretty much just out of frustration. It's not acceptable behavior, but he's a child. As the adult, I frequently have to step in and protect him and anyone else around.

 

He's becomming pretty compliant (I don't want obedience). When I first set up his chore system, it was physically draining. Most of it was hand over hand making him do it. Then he would do it "on his terms." Now we're at the point where he'll help with what was asked within a minute. If he's in a bad mood, he'll probably curse while doing things, but he's doing it and that's all that matters for the moment.

 

It is a loooooong process. Your first step is to really get to know him. Figure out what sets him off, and what the consequence is, including natural consequences. My favorite books are:

 

Functional Behavior Assessments for people with autism (truly helpful to figure out behaviors for any kid or person [i've even used it on my father! LOL])

 

Honey I wrecked the kids

 

And I have a bunch of positive parenting books.

 

I also have to make sure he goes to bed on time, eats well, and gets plenty of outdoor time (both with me and his sister, and alone time).

 

Feel free to pm me. My ds is 6.

[Jeanne in MN]

Oh I grasp that it's not a one day thing. :) We've been struggling with this kid since the day he was born!

 

I'm also a good parent.:D I have two older children who were very good when they were this age. They never, ever, ever would have dreamed of telling me "no," hitting me or anything else. These kids used to get compliments from random strangers in public. So it's not like I'm a permissive parent who lets my kids run amock. ;)

 

This child is a whole different animal. None of the techniques I used with my older kids work with him. I could easily put my older two in time out when they were little. This child will not stay in time out! He just gets right up. I put him back, he gets up. This can literally go on for hours.

 

I'm exhausted and I'm discouraged. He's extremely bright, funny, etc. but he has this strong will that I cannot crack. I just don't know what to do anymore.:confused:

 

See, I should have kept my mouth shut. :blush: Sounds like you are getting lots of helpful advice form moms who have been there. I wish you great success! :001_smile:

[Amy in NH]

Have you ever watched 123 Magic? That approach has worked for us.

[twoforjoy]

My first child is like this (it scared me enough I was afraid to have a 2nd!).

 

We've got six years between our first and second. It took us that long to feel okay about having another child. For a long time we figured we were such unfit parents we shouldn't breed again. ;)

[Liz CA]

Just a thought: Have you given him choices, i.e, "...do some jumping jacks or play ball with the dog. The choice is yours."

He still feels some kind of control since he can make a choice.

[Liz CA]

I'm exhausted and I'm discouraged. He's extremely bright, funny, etc. but he has this strong will that I cannot crack. I just don't know what to do anymore.:confused:

 

Perhaps using the strong will for something positive would work. Instead of cracking it, channeling it into something good.

I wrote it in another post, giving choices has helped us a lot. When there are a few things from which to choose, it sometimes takes the edge off because he can think about what has been offered.

[Carol in Cal.]

OK, you're a great mom. I believe you! I know that great moms can have problematic kids. I have seen outstanding moms with difficult kids. I'm sorry you are going through this.

 

I think that you need to pick one thing and stick to it--one approach that you try with real conviction for a couple of months. I don't know whether that should be 123M or the Have a New Child or what.

 

Personally one of my favorite parenting books is "Becoming the Parent You Want To Be" because it has good techniques but it also really encourages and facilitates a thoughtful approach, where you stand back and try to figure out what is really going on.

 

From your earlier post I had the impression that you're talking to him too much at length for his age, easy to do when your older children are, well, older, and more reasonable, and more needing to be reasoned WITH. So I thought that keeping things shorter, picking your battles, and winning each one you pick, for about 2 months, coupled with a lot of love and positive feedback as well as support for good sleep and nutrition would do the trick. That still sounds like a great starting point to me. It would not surprise me at all if things got FAR worse before they got better, using this approach. After all, it's a change, and he's not going to love it. I think that he will adjust to it, but maybe he won't. Still, if it does work it will lay the groundwork for the next 10 years, which would be very cool. You have to be ready to stick with this for quite a while, devoting a lot of time and energy to it, really a ridiculous amount, for this to work.

 

So let's talk a little more about picking your battles. One key there is to, as others have said, offer choices whereever possible, and avoid giving orders unless you are prepared for a battle and to follow through. So, the jumping jacks thing was perfectly reasonable, but something to say might have been, "You know, I think your brain needs to move around to work this hard. Do you want to do some jumping jacks or run around outside?" He's more likely to do one of these if he has a choice. Maybe he'll pick one and do it. But he might still get his back up and refuse. If he says, NO! you could say, OK, then it's time for math. Or you could say, "You can say that you don't want to do this in a nice way. Here is how: 'No, thank you, Mommy, I don't need to run around.' Now you need to pick. Do you want to say no thanks nicely, or do jumping jacks or run around outside for 2 minutes?" See what I mean? It sort of give him space to catch his breath and adjust to the indignity of being told what to do, without backing down in the slightest.

 

I say this without doubt or reservation: You can be a great mom and know all this stuff and still have a hard time, and that doesn't mean it's your fault. I know this for sure because I have seen it. Some kids will just exhaust you. Some kids are very opposed to authority. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you raised them this way--some just pop out like that. :grouphug:

Edited May 2, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[Sugarfoot]

Two of ours are extremely difficult. Both have sensory issues and one is likely Asperger's, as well. I've read Have a New Kid by Friday, but it didn't bring about much change here. What does work with my highly sensitive, strong-willed 4 y.o. is 1-2-3 Magic. Implementing that has been the best thing I've ever done. Something about knowing she can choose to avoid time-out by doing what I've asked or continue her behavior but end up in time-out has really made a difference here. It took about 2 weeks to see major improvements. I use it with DS 3, too, but he doesn't have near the issues that DD 4 has. I was leery about trying yet another "thing," but I'm so glad I did.

 

We're mostly a time-out, Love and Logic type family, FWIW.;)

[JVA]

Doorposts sells several charts and books on character training. We used the If-Then Chart very successfully....it was so helpful to have already decided on 'consequences' before the infraction. I found that I didn't always stay calm and remember consequences for the same infractions. With the chart up on the back of the pantry door, I could take the child over to it- point to the picture that showed the infraction and the picture of the consequence. It took the steam out of the moment and because it was at their level, they always knew the results of their bad behavior. The consequence can also be changed periodically, if needed. I laminated the chart and wrote with dry erase markers. This might be helpful.

 

http://www.doorposts.com/details.aspx?id=14

[LibraryLover]

My highly sensitive one was overwhelmed by choices, even ones as innocent as chocolate or vanilla. Good thing these little ones tend to have giant hearts. They feel everything so deeply. This is good and bad. Imagine going through each day thinking the choice of what to eat for breakfast was as important to you as what car to buy. These kids need much patience and support. It's a huge challenge.

Edited May 3, 2011 by LibraryLover

[MelanieM]

:grouphug:I have a ton of experience here, but my approach is much different. I don't want to get in a war on the boards about 'permissive' parenting :) I do like The Highly Spirited Child book, and the one for adults. It's not an obedience book, but it does help to understand the inner turmoil issues, and why highly sensitive children push hard back (hitting, throwing) when they feel cornered. We could chat in PMs if you think I might have something to offer.

 

I would LOVE to hear what you have to say on this subject. If you don't feel like posting here, and have the time to do so, I would be thrilled by a PM with your thoughts. :)

[MelanieM]

My second sounds a lot like your little one. The thing that I have found most helpful for him is implementing a rewards system so that we're focusing on celebrating the good, and providing him with some solid reasons for avoiding the 'bad'. Otherwise it is all too easy to feel like we're all spending our time focusing on dealing with mishaps rather than appreciating where we're doing well, and I truly don't believe that is healthy or helpful for kids.

 

We use a points system, and award one point at each meal period during the day. The point is automatically granted unless one of the specific negative behaviours we're working on overcoming has happened during the preceeding period of time. So if we're working on hitting and name calling the rule is a loss of point for either of those behaviours, and if we have a period without either of those happening we award the point with a note of thanks for a pleasant morning/afternoon. We've also scaled it a bit so that you lose a point for hitting, in addition to not earning your point for that time period, while you just miss the point for a lesser offense.

 

Initially we had a 'treasure chest' filled with trinkets and art supplies from the dollar store, and the kids could cash in 10 points for a treat whenever they wanted. This worked well for a while, but then we switched to money (5 points/$1) which has allowed for them to save up and get bigger treats.

 

The very first day we implemented this my son managed to go 10 points to the negative, and I had given him 10 points to start with! But within a couple of days I noticed a huge difference using this system. It really helped me to stay calm and focused, it helped him to understand what was expected. I think perhaps the biggest benefit to him was in having something that could pull his focus outward so that he could stop the crazy-making cycle going on inside his head in the heat of the moment. He just really needs something solid and external to help him break that cycle.

 

We've slipped lately and stopped using the points system, and I've noticed it has also led to a bit of a slip in our interactions with each other. Time to get back on track!

[Garga]

This thread is timely.

 

Today, I asked my children to clean the playroom. I asked one boy to clean the blue carpet, and one to clean the green carpet.

 

My ds6 got extremely angry and said he couldn't do it. The thing is, he can. He had less to clean than his brother. He has cleaned that amount before without a problem. I felt it was a stall tactic. I tried talking with him and showing him how there wasn't really all that much to clean.

 

I set the timer for 30 minutes (a good 15-20 minutes longer than would take to do the job), and said that anything not cleaned in that time would be done on their time: right after school OR even during their 1 hour of gamecube time.

 

Ds6 started pouting and snarling that he couldn't do it. He sat on a chair and kicked the wall so hard that he dented it. So, I told him that if he wanted to kick, he'd have to kick in his closet. He would have to stay there for 6 minutes. (He's afraid to go into his room alone, so I made a nice comfy bed in the closet in the schoolroom, with blankets, pillows, stuffed toys, and a clip-on light.)

 

He wouldn't go.

 

So, I followed the advice in this thread and DIDN'T say another word. I just picked him up and put him in.

 

We did this for about 15 minutes. Each time I picked him up, he scratched me, pulled my shirt (the sleeve is now ruined), kicked me as hard as he could, and punched me. Once he was trying to hit me and hit his hand on the closet door super hard.

 

After the 15 minutes of fighting, he stayed (for his 6 minutes of quiet time). Then he came out and started cleaning.

 

 

Part of me is sad because I'm so distressed that's it's degenerated to him fighting me so hard. What have I done wrong that he so totally disrespects me? I just can't believe I'm like one of those parents on Super Nanny with the kid hitting me with his fists and feet as hard as he can. I'm feeling pretty low right now.

 

But part of me feels a little better, that maybe I'm on the right track to helping him stop throwing fits, and teaching him the boundaries.

Edited May 3, 2011 by Garga

[LibraryLover]

Garga. It's hard to believe, but this behavior is not personal. It is not personal. Most kids hate to melt down like this, they feel guilty afterwards. They might not tell you, but they do, which contributes to their swirling mass of emotional confusion.

 

Highly Sensitive Children don't know where to go with their own emotions when faced with certain things...choices, tasks, etc. The blocks that to us look easy enough to pick up , look overwhelming to this child. They know they have to do, they have to do it in a certain frame, they worry about what happens if they don't do it, they are thinking about what they were doing and are trying to transition, they hear their own inner voice, their mom's voice and on and on. They can't filter all the messages. They don't know where to go, what to feel, how to manage all the messages, so they lose it.

 

These kids need more physical support than others, with direct, calm, (yelling adds more stimuli they can't manage) specific requests, and often only one thing at a time.

Edited May 3, 2011 by LibraryLover

[elfgivas]

you've had some great advice. i just sooooooo hate having to be consistent alllllllll the time.... but we all pay if i'm not : (.

 

a positive addition we add when things go off the rails is for each child to have 15 minutes alone time with an adult each day. the child gets to choose the activity. sometimes, whichever dd i have that day chooses cuddling and reading aloud, or playing chess (more often the choice when they have time with dh, thank goodness) or going for a walk or baking cookies or playing cards. it helps them feel valued, and works wonders in our daily relationships.

 

:grouphug:

he's lucky to have a mom willing to do what it takes to help him grow up well.

 

ann

[CAMom]

See, I should have kept my mouth shut. :blush: Sounds like you are getting lots of helpful advice form moms who have been there. I wish you great success! :001_smile:

 

Oh no, Jeanne! :grouphug: I'm glad you posted! Thank you so much for caring and for being willing to offer something to a mom at her wit's end! :)

[CAMom]

OK, you're a great mom. I believe you! I know that great moms can have problematic kids. I have seen outstanding moms with difficult kids. I'm sorry you are going through this.

 

I hope I didn't come off as defensive saying that I'm a good mom. I didn't say it defensively. In fact, I don't feel defensive at all over this. I feel very, very humbled because I now have a kid who sometimes acts like a major brat.

 

My older two were not this way at all and I always thought it was because of my mad parenting skills.;) I have these two teens (18 and almost 15) who people just adore! I am constantly being told what lovely children they are and what a good job we did with them. And then there Mr. Naughty Pants.:lol: I don't think I've ever gotten a compliment on him.

 

I think that you need to pick one thing and stick to it--one approach that you try with real conviction for a couple of months. I don't know whether that should be 123M or the Have a New Child or what.

 

You're right and that's what I'm trying to do.

 

From your earlier post I had the impression that you're talking to him too much at length for his age, easy to do when your older children are, well, older, and more reasonable, and more needing to be reasoned WITH. So I thought that keeping things shorter, picking your battles, and winning each one you pick, for about 2 months, coupled with a lot of love and positive feedback as well as support for good sleep and nutrition would do the trick. That still sounds like a great starting point to me. It would not surprise me at all if things got FAR worse before they got better, using this approach. After all, it's a change, and he's not going to love it. I think that he will adjust to it, but maybe he won't. Still, if it does work it will lay the groundwork for the next 10 years, which would be very cool. You have to be ready to stick with this for quite a while, devoting a lot of time and energy to it, really a ridiculous amount, for this to work.

 

Yes! You and the others were totally right about me talking too much to him! I have been used to dealing with reasonable older children for a while and didn't realize that I was applying some of the same reasoning to a kid who was way too young. I am really grateful for all of you who could look from the outside in and help me see that!

 

I have been devoting a lot of time and energy to this and I'm willing to stick it out. I'm running into some bumps along the road like what to do when he hits me.:confused:

 

So let's talk a little more about picking your battles. One key there is to, as others have said, offer choices whereever possible, and avoid giving orders unless you are prepared for a battle and to follow through. So, the jumping jacks thing was perfectly reasonable, but something to say might have been, "You know, I think your brain needs to move around to work this hard. Do you want to do some jumping jacks or run around outside?"

 

I've been working on giving this kid choices. He refuses to pick one and he tells me so. He says, "I don't want choices. I'm not going to do either one." So, I say, "OK. That's fine. If you don't choose, I will choose for you." He says he won't do what I choose for him and the battle begins.

 

Yesterday, in particular, I hadn't given him a choice. I honestly thought he would think it was fun to hop off the chair and do 10 jumping jacks. I thought he would laugh, do it, and get back to work. I didn't dream it would turn into a battle. It took almost 2 hrs. and my husband stopping by the house during lunchtime to resolve the issue.

 

I say this without doubt or reservation: You can be a great mom and know all this stuff and still have a hard time, and that doesn't mean it's your fault. I know this for sure because I have seen it. Some kids will just exhaust you. Some kids are very opposed to authority. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you raised them this way--some just pop out like that. :grouphug:

 

Thanks for saying that. :grouphug:

[CAMom]

My highly sensitive one was overwhelmed by choices, even ones as innocent as chocolate or vanilla. Good thing these little ones tend to have giant hearts. They feel everything so deeply. This is good and bad. Imagine going through each day thinking the choice of what to eat for breakfast was as important to you as what car to buy. These kids need much patience and support. It's a huge challenge.

 

I wonder if my guy is overwhelmed by choices. I can give him a choice like-Would you rather wear sandals or your tennis shoes?-and it can go bad. He'll turn it into a major ordeal.

[CAMom]

My second sounds a lot like your little one. The thing that I have found most helpful for him is implementing a rewards system so that we're focusing on celebrating the good, and providing him with some solid reasons for avoiding the 'bad'. Otherwise it is all too easy to feel like we're all spending our time focusing on dealing with mishaps rather than appreciating where we're doing well, and I truly don't believe that is healthy or helpful for kids.

 

I've actually been considering some sort of reward system like that. He's been asking for a way to earn money since he finally spent the rest of his Christmas money last week.

 

I'm just afraid to try anything with this kid for fear it will backfire on me. ;) I'll have to think more on this one.

[CAMom]

Part of me is sad because I'm so distressed that's it's degenerated to him fighting me so hard. What have I done wrong that he so totally disrespects me? I just can't believe I'm like one of those parents on Super Nanny with the kid hitting me with his fists and feet as hard as he can. I'm feeling pretty low right now.

 

But part of me feels a little better, that maybe I'm on the right track to helping him stop throwing fits, and teaching him the boundaries.

 

:grouphug::grouphug:Oh boy! I could have written this post. I'm sorry you're dealing with it, too.:grouphug::grouphug:

[Garga]

Garga. It's hard to believe, but this behavior is not personal. It is not personal. Most kids hate to melt down like this, they feel guilty afterwards. They might not tell you, but they do, which contributes to their swirling mass of emotional confusion.

 

Highly Sensitive Children don't know where to go with their own emotions when faced with certain things...choices, tasks, etc. The blocks that to us look easy enough to pick up , look overwhelming to this child. They know they have to do, they have to do it in a certain frame, they worry about what happens if they don't do it, they are thinking about what they were doing and are trying to transition, they hear their own inner voice, their mom's voice and on and on. They can't filter all the messages. They don't know where to go, what to feel, how to manage all the messages, so they lose it.

 

These kids need more physical support than others, with direct, calm, (yelling adds more stimuli they can't manage) specific requests, and often only one thing at a time.

 

 

Thank you. I have a lot to think about.

[MamaSheep]

I haven't read all the responses, as I'm doing a drive-by skimming visit on my lunch break and my timer is about to go off, but I would strongly recommend doing a little searching and reading on the topic of "extinction burst". It sounds to me like this could be a factor in what you're dealing with. (BTDT--so sorry you and your little guy are struggling! It will get better, just hang in there.)

[mama2cntrykids]

Oh I grasp that it's not a one day thing. :) We've been struggling with this kid since the day he was born!

 

I'm also a good parent.:D I have two older children who were very good when they were this age. They never, ever, ever would have dreamed of telling me "no," hitting me or anything else. These kids used to get compliments from random strangers in public. So it's not like I'm a permissive parent who lets my kids run amock. ;)

 

This child is a whole different animal. None of the techniques I used with my older kids work with him. I could easily put my older two in time out when they were little. This child will not stay in time out! He just gets right up. I put him back, he gets up. This can literally go on for hours.

 

I'm exhausted and I'm discouraged. He's extremely bright, funny, etc. but he has this strong will that I cannot crack. I just don't know what to do anymore.:confused:

 

Your ds sounds so much like mine when he was that age. Especially the not staying in time out bit. I can say, however, that now that boy is 8 and with maturity/time, he is doing **sooooo** much better. Perfect? No, not at all, he has his down days still, but I can actually deal with him most days now.

 

I haven't been a great parent with him (especially compaired to my others). I am sorry for that, but I can't go back and erase it as much as I'd love to. All I can do is go on from where we are now.

 

:grouphug:

[CandaceC]

Ronette, no advice, just :grouphug: I have one of those also and unfortunately for me, it is my first...so I have had no "practice" or older kids to encourage me that I'm doing *something* right and most days feel like a terrible mom with this one child!! uggg!!! I'm glad you are posting...I'm reading these threads and taking notes. :)

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Th

We did this for about 15 minutes. Each time I picked him up, he scratched me, pulled my shirt (the sleeve is now ruined), kicked me as hard as he could, and punched me. Once he was trying to hit me and hit his hand on the closet door super hard.

 

 

I'm currently frustrated with my son, and mad at his school ... so don't take anything I say the wrong way, I've BTDT!

 

You absolutely must figure out how to move and restrain him without letting yourself get hurt! It will help both of you. Even if he's so mad that he feels like using you as a punching bag, he's going to feel worse about it later. You have to protect yourself in a calm way.

 

Sometimes kids get so worked up that they can't control themselves. If you restrain him properly it will help him calm down without destruction.

 

I went through this for years with my ds. We're now at the point where he will slam his ladder on his bed (which is acceptable for now). He has enough control to leave the ladder alone if it's not leaning on his bed.

 

If he needs to be restrained, he'll even turn his back to me and cross his arms all while screaming that he hates me and to let him go. He'll tell me to let him go before I touch him! This is only when it's extreme, and he'll usually fall asleep while I'm holding him.

[LibraryLover]

Thank you. I have a lot to think about.

 

I meant to put more IMEs in my post. I am not a Dr. :) I hope I've helped a little.

Edited May 4, 2011 by LibraryLover