Teen fakes pregnancy at school

[MischiefManaged]

I actually think it's brilliant.

 

BUT........

 

I think the boyfriends parents should have been afforded the same respect as the girls parents and been told. The siblings would be a tricky thing.

:iagree:

 

 

if the boyfriend was 20yo, that could be a big reason for why they weren't told. I'd imagine that if the boyfriend had been a minor the parents would have HAD to be told.

[snickelfritz]

Isn't the basis of being an irresponsible person doing irresponsible things? So, if a 17 year old getting pregnant without finishing high school is irresponsible, then she (and her boyfriend, he wouldn't be left out of this) is by nature irresponsible. Can she grow in her responsibility, especially through a pregnancy and rearing or adopting out a child? Of course, and it happens routinely. But it's irresponsible to put yourself in that situation in the first place.

 

No, it means she isn't perfect. I left the garage door open this week and had things stolen.

 

Am I irresponsible? I did something irresponsible. Besides that, I am never late. I don't lose things loaned to me (and if I did, I would replace it without being asked.). I haven't had a vehicle ticket in over 12 years, then only 2 in my years of driving. I have excellent credit. I graduated college with over a 3.75, in engineering. I show up at church when I'm scheduled to work. The difference is that nobody has to know my one irresponsible act cost us several thousands dollars. You can't hide a pregnancy, so everyone knows.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I don't see how she was courageous; creative, maybe. She didn't experience the morning sickness, the aches and pains, the hormonal changes - nothing that pregnant teens really go through. She knew every minute of the day that this was a farce and could end the project at any time. There were no visits to the public health department, no OB appts and no fighting with insurance companies to try to get maternity coverage.

 

The chosen examples of the 'rumors' she had to hear are a joke. If concerns about her ability to attend college were the worst things she heard than the girl leads a charmed life. Where were the accusations of being a sl--, or a wh--- or any number of other things. The comments in this thread (and they aren't bad at all)are worse than those I could find in any of the articles I read.

 

I did a search and read a few of the articles that go into a bit more detail about this and really I don't get why some people think it is this great intellectual feat. Nothing novel came from this experiment/project. The information that she gleaned has been general knowledge for years. The idea that this would show how a good student might be treated differently than other pregnant teens is a weak hypothesis and unnecessary. Good students get pregant, too, it's not only the low GPA, fringe girls who have se- and end up with a pregnancy. There are many other experiments she could have done that would not have required this level of deception and may have produced novel, thought provoking results.

 

For her to be offered scholarships for faking a pregnancy is ludacris. What about the teenage girls who are really pregnant, managed to pull off a 4.0 in high school and stay active in their communities? Those are the girls who should be applauded.

Edited April 25, 2011 by The Dragon Academy

[Granny_Weatherwax]

No, it means she isn't perfect. I left the garage door open this week and had things stolen.

 

Am I irresponsible? I did something irresponsible. Besides that, I am never late. I don't lose things loaned to me (and if I did, I would replace it without being asked.). I haven't had a vehicle ticket in over 12 years, then only 2 in my years of driving. I have excellent credit. I graduated college with over a 3.75, in engineering. I show up at church when I'm scheduled to work. The difference is that nobody has to know my one irresponsible act cost us several thousands dollars. You can't hide a pregnancy, so everyone knows.

:iagree:

[Ester Maria]

Isn't the basis of being an irresponsible person doing irresponsible things? So, if a 17 year old getting pregnant without finishing high school is irresponsible, then she (and her boyfriend, he wouldn't be left out of this) is by nature irresponsible. Can she grow in her responsibility, especially through a pregnancy and rearing or adopting out a child? Of course, and it happens routinely. But it's irresponsible to put yourself in that situation in the first place.

Have you ever done something thoughtles, juvenile, or just plain stupid and potentially dangerous, and got out of that situation because you were lucky, as opposed to because you were responsible? I honestly believe that most of us could find not one or two, but indeed multiple instances of "favored by luck" type of not getting into trouble. It is normal, we are not perfect.

 

When relying on luck to save us becomes a dominant trait of personality - a sort of carelessness - then I call it irresponsibility. When it is not about a couple of isolated moments in which we acted less than intelligently, but when we consistently ignore common sense, laws of driving made for our own benefit, etc. But does the fact that once we did not stop the second the red light went on, but continued, even if something truly bad could have happened, and that only sheer luck saved it from happening, undermine the fact that in 99.999...% of instances we are excellent, thoughtful drivers?

 

The problem is, in thos exceptional moments, not everybody gets favored by luck. Some people who really are excellent, thoughtful drivers, much more so than us, did end up in horrible car accidents. Simply because when luck saved my butt, in the exact same circumstances it did not save theirs, does it mean they are bad drivers? The only difference between us is who got favored by luck. Both instances could have ended up extremely bad. And yet, I will be an exemplary driver, and somebody reading about their lack of luck in a moment of silliness will think "what an idiot" about them.

 

Same can be said at least about some teens who got pregnant, and who still get lumped with the rest of truly irresponsible ones. Maybe it was a one time thing: happens, too. Maybe they used protection, but accidents happen too. Or maybe, God forbid, there was no consent in the first place so pregnancy is definitely not the girl's responsibility. Many options exist.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Same can be said at least about some teens who got pregnant, and who still get lumped with the rest of truly irresponsible ones. Maybe it was a one time thing: happens, too. Maybe they used protection, but accidents happen too. Or maybe, God forbid, there was no consent in the first place so pregnancy is definitely not the girl's responsibility. Many options exist.

 

(to save space I don't want to quote your entire post )

 

I think I am an Ester Maria groupie!!!

Edited April 25, 2011 by The Dragon Academy

[tex-mex]

I actually think it's brilliant.

 

BUT........

 

I think the boyfriends parents should have been afforded the same respect as the girls parents and been told. The siblings would be a tricky thing.

:iagree: My thought was perhaps the boyfriend's parents were not on good terms, lack of (or no) communication, he may have been in foster care, or the parents may not have been able to keep a secret??

 

I thought she was an IB student presenting her research paper - which was why the principal knew (and had to approve) the idea.

[kalanamak]

(I don't want to quote your entire post to save space)

 

I think I am an Ester Maria groupie!!!

 

Hey, stop elbowing. It's crowded in here.:001_smile:

[Ester Maria]

She didn't experience the morning sickness, the aches and pains, the hormonal changes - nothing that pregnant teens really go through. She knew every minute of the day that this was a farce and could end the project at any time. There were no visits to the public health department, no OB appts and no fighting with insurance companies to try to get maternity coverage.

What is inherently courageous about doing that? I am not being snarky, just really curious. I see nothing inherently courageous about that - those are regular side-effects of the state of pregnancy. Tough ones, I agree. But regular situation, if you know what I mean.

ETA: Wait, I just reread your post. I guess this is because I associate "courage" with "doing what one does not have to", purposely putting yourself in such a situation. HoweverI definitely hear you about it being tough and needing to get more recognition and respect. :)

 

What the kid did was putting herself partially into a situation she did not have to be in, which was not a natural consequence of anything she did (unlike the case with most pregnant teenage girls), for an extended period, with the risk of being ostracized, defriended, reputation ruined, etc. Few people would be willing to do that for the sake of a project, especially at her age when peer dynamics matters, in many ways, more than academics.

 

That her project basically "stated the obvious" (from a strictly scientific viewpiont) - yes, it did. Maybe it was on the whole unnecessary. Maybe she could have kept it theoretical, rather than enter an experiment. But what do you expect of a high school senior, to break ice with truly new science, to get published, to enter peer reviewed scientific journals? High school projects are more about learning to make a project than about making an independent and recognized scientific contribution. It is okay. She has time for that. If the kid is interested in sociology or psychology, this is a really good start, if nothing else, showing some kind of determination.

 

However, I still find it interesting. It says nothing about her overall academic potential (and I totally agree with you that being offered scholarships on the grounds of this experiment is a bit laughable :) - but not any more than being offered scholarships on the grounds of sports success, or being admitted as a legacy student or on other non-academic criteria! Sorry, but if one can get into an academic institution based on sports results, then this kid can certainly get into it based on such a project which is, if nothing else, at least academic in nature and as such in the spirit of university!), but I do believe it says a think or two about creativity and courage. It takes guts to do such a project in high school, to be consistent with your intent and actively work on it for six months in the way it influences your entire life. Not every teen can do that. She did not break ice with new stuff, but a good start nonetheless. Just my .02 though. :)

Edited April 25, 2011 by Ester Maria

[Pretty in Pink]

I wanted to share my own personal experience.

 

I got pregnant when I was 17. I was not an irresponsible person. I graduated third in my class. I was on the honor roll every semester throughout high school. I was first chair in my section in the high school band, played in numberous honor bands, and was assistant drum major during my junior and senior years. I graduated with two academic scholarships and a music scholarship.

 

My mom was an alcoholic and my dad was abusive when he was home, though he was deployed for my entire senior year. During that time, my Mom went downhill significantly. She lost jobs, she quit paying bills, she quit going to the supermarket. She wrecked a vehicle. She spent our mortgage payment on booze. Being the eldest, I took up her slack. I took over the checkbook, I paid the bills (by forging her signature on checks), I went to the supermarket every Saturday and bought groceries for the week. I cooked, I cleaned, I did laundry. I helped my siblings with their homework, and I attended their doctor appointments and teacher conferences at school. We got the yard work done. I maintained the working vehicle. I took the dogs to the vet. I did all of the little things and the big things that moms are supposed to do for an entire year.

 

I asked for help. I asked my father; I asked relatives. I went to my high school principal. I received no help, not even when my mother showed up drunk at the high school in a short, silky nighty and stumbled up and down the halls looking for my. My principal just called me out of class and asked me to take my mother home but, hey, she gave me an excused absence for the morning so I guess that counted for something...

 

Throughout this entire year I held a job as well as maintained my GPA.

 

But, I made a mistake. I met a 20 year old soldier from the local base whom I ended up sleeping with for all of the wrong reasons. I got pregnant. Was I an irresponsible person? I don't think so. In fact, I think I was a very responsible person. I was the most responsible person in my own life or the lives of my siblings. I made one irresponsible decision.

[Ester Maria]

But, I made a mistake. I met a 20 year old soldier from the local base whom I ended up sleeping with for all of the wrong reasons. I got pregnant. Was I an irresponsible person? I don't think so. In fact, I think I was a very responsible person. I was the most responsible person in my own life or the lives of my siblings. I made one irresponsible decision.

And there were thousands upon thousands of young girls just like you, who did more or less the same thing, but got favored by luck in that they got away with a moment of irresponsibility without major life consequences. There is nothing which makes them inherently more responsible than girls like you, who did end up with major life consequences. Case, luck, destiny, call it what you wish, but it could have been any girl who did not graduate as virgin, which I suppose are the majority nowadays anyway. There is a big difference between irresponsibility as general attitude towards life, and an isolated moment of that which got your life changed.

[Murphy101]

I don't think pregnancy equals irresponsible.

 

I see absolutely zero point to her lie. She didn't bring anything to light that anyone with half a brain wasn't aware of prior.

 

I see nothing courageous or brilliant about it either. For the most part it appears her school and her community was very supportive. And it isn't as though no one has actually gotten pregnant in high school, so it isn't like she is introducing some new idea.

 

Hmmm. So let's say a girl wants to do an experiment to find out if her boyfriend really loves her. I guess it would be a brilliant and courageous idea to lie to him that she is pregnant to see how he reacts? Maybe if her mother and school counselor encourage her to do so that would make it okay?

 

And if he freaks or brings up realistic worries like college, work, and income - well what a judgmental turd? And this proves what point exactly? That humans act human?:confused:

 

I guess the "point" and the "brilliance" is if you lie about being pregnant on a larger scale with the approval of your mom and principal and call it an experiment, it is okay.

 

I don't get it. I don't shame unwed mothers, but I see no value to this supposed project.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Hey, stop elbowing. It's crowded in here.:001_smile:

 

(scooting over to make room)

[snickelfritz]

Something else, in regards to the ethics of her project.... This is questioning "out loud" not because I'm an expert.

 

Most science fair projects have restrictions on involving people (and animals, as a sidenote) in your projects. My sister is working on a Ph.D. She has to jump through a lot of hoops and do a yearly certification on involving people in your research.

 

I am just wondering what the ethical guidelines ARE for a "by the books" social experiment that would be legitimately undertaken............

[Granny_Weatherwax]

What is inherently courageous about doing that? I guess I was thinking about the girl who chooses to carry her baby to full term instead of choosing other options (I don't want this to become a debate about which is more courageous though)...or the girl who stays in high school when it would be easier to choose the alternative/part time school (like that offered in our town)...I am not being snarky, just really curious. And that's how I read it, snark free. I see nothing inherently courageous about that - those are regular side-effects of the state of pregnancy. Tough ones, I agree. But regular situation, if you know what I mean.

ETA: Wait, I just reread your post. I guess this is because I associate "courage" with "doing what one does not have to", purposely putting yourself in such a situation. HoweverI definitely hear you about it being tough and needing to get more recognition and respect. :) Okay.

 

What the kid did was putting herself partially into a situation she did not have to be in, which was not a natural consequence of anything she did (unlike the case with most pregnant teenage girls), for an extended period, with the risk of being ostracized, defriended, reputation ruined, etc. Few people would be willing to do that for the sake of a project, especially at her age when peer dynamics matters, in many ways, more than academics. I agree, but all she had to do at any time was say "I'm tired of this. It was all a lie."

 

That her project basically "stated the obvious" (from a strictly scientific viewpiont) - yes, it did. Maybe it was on the whole unnecessary. Maybe she could have kept it theoretical, rather than enter an experiment. But what do you expect of a high school senior, to break ice with truly new science, to get published, to enter peer reviewed scientific journals? No, I don't expect her to do any of that but there have been high schoolers who can design and execute well thought out experiments that have merit.

High school projects are more about learning to make a project than about making an independent and recognized scientific contribution. It is okay. She has time for that. If the kid is interested in sociology or psychology, this is a really good start, if nothing else, showing some kind of determination. I agree with you on this point but I am concerned about what she has learned about ethical principles in research if this is considered acceptable.

 

However, I still find it interesting. It says nothing about her overall academic potential (and I totally agree with you that being offered scholarships on the grounds of this experiment is a bit laughable :) - but not any more than being offered scholarships on the grounds of sports success, or being admitted as a legacy student or on other non-academic criteria! Sorry, but if one can get into an academic institution based on sports results, then this kid can certainly get into it based on such a project which is, if nothing else, at least academic in nature and as such in the spirit of university!), but I do believe it says a think or two about creativity and courage. It takes guts to do such a project in high school, to be consistent with your intent and actively work on it for six months in the way it influences your entire life. Not every teen can do that. She did not break ice with new stuff, but a good start nonetheless. Just my .02 though. :)

 

and again you have solidified my groupie status.

[Impish]

And there were thousands upon thousands of young girls just like you, who did more or less the same thing, but got favored by luck in that they got away with a moment of irresponsibility without major life consequences. There is nothing which makes them inherently more responsible than girls like you, who did end up with major life consequences. Case, luck, destiny, call it what you wish, but it could have been any girl who did not graduate as virgin, which I suppose are the majority nowadays anyway. There is a big difference between irresponsibility as general attitude towards life, and an isolated moment of that which got your life changed.

:iagree:

That's it. I'm designing "Ester Groupie!" shirts...

[myfunnybunch]

And the saddest thing is, if you disapprove of all experiments of that kind, you really are hindering the progress of science.

 

Ester Maria, I agree with almost everything you wrote, except for this.

 

Each individual has to decide for him or herself the lines they are willing to cross, whether or not they are willing to knowingly participate in a lie, how to weigh the costs and benefits of social experiments, and whether they approve of others doing so. The idea that we somehow hinder scientific progress by doing so is accurate, I suppose, but scientific progress is already "hindered" by disallowing many kinds of experiments that almost all of us agree should not be allowed. The debatable issue isn't whether scientific progress is being helped or hindered, but rather, where do we draw the line?

 

And there's a difference between disapproval and disallowing. Sometimes, especially for teens, they can amount to the same thing. But disapproval is an important part of weighing the social costs of a social experiment of this kind. Understanding ahead of time who might or might not approve, and why, is an important part of weighing the moral and ethical implications and the possible social consequences brought about by participating in an experiment that involves lying to those around you.

 

Personally, I believe that if this young woman really understood the kind of fallout and hurt to others that could happen over this, felt passionately about her subject, and pursued it anyway, then she is certainly brave. Wise? I can't decide. As a parent, if my daughter asked to do something like this, I would probably disapprove and find myself unable to participate in what I believe to be dishonesty and deceit. But I don't think I'd disallow it either.

 

Cat

[ThatCyndiGirl]

With just about ANY research you will have detractors saying,"I think that your research is a dumb waste of time". I think that the "Christian Purity in Dress" research was stupid, but nobody asked me and MANY people seemed to think that it was just absolutely ground-breaking.

 

It's not so much that "anyone with half a brain could figure out that pregnant teens deal with stigma", but that was pointed out. Now, obviously, many on this board did not NEED that particular object lesson. That doesn't mean that the project was without merit.

 

I still don't see how "a baby died" here. With that frame of mind every time a girl thinks she is pregnant and finds out later that she is NOT.....a baby has died. His parents didn't like her, if we are playing the "IF" game then maybe they were RELIEVED when they found out that she wasn't pg?

Edited April 25, 2011 by ThatCyndiGirl

[Murphy101]

Oh I agree that there is no baby loss here, tho there could certainly be a strong sense of betrayal.

 

I do not see how this girl suffered any stigma. It appears she received lots of support from her school and community for the most part.:confused:

[Impish]

When finding out a loved one is having a child, dreaming, hoping, wishing about that child is an absolutely natural thing.

 

The loss of that dream, those hopes, is going to cause grief. The fact that this was a hoax doesn't invalidate the potential feelings of loss for anyone that believed her. It was real for them.

[LibraryLover]

Tough crowd...tough crowd.

[cindergretta]

I am really interested to hear more about the boyfriend's parents not being in on it - is there some sort of a rift? Estrangement? Kwim?

 

I am the mother of an almost 17 y/o boy. If we were unwitting particpants in this type of "experiment," I would be livid. The stress and strain that my dh and I would go through; the stress on the younger siblings... The disappoinment of everyone has we came to terms with and anticipated this new life only to find out it was all a giant hoax? That would be heartbreaking. I have suffered 2 pregnancy losses. I was devastated both times. I don't think this would be the same, but it would still be heartbreaking and unkind and unfair.

 

I am going to assign positive intent and assume that there was no need for his parents to know as they weren't involved in any way. :D

 

(I think I agree with Martha through out. I am confused about who posted what, but I know she said a lot that made sense to me! :tongue_smilie: )

[Granny_Weatherwax]

:iagree:

That's it. I'm designing "Ester Groupie!" shirts...

 

I'll take one. You got lime green?

[Impish]

LOL...cafepress does indeed!

[HeidiKC]

I think it was a bad idea. Especially the part where her boyfriend's parents didn't know--imagine them spending months coming to terms with their son's new responsibilities, that they're going to have a grandbaby, and all that!

 

:iagree:

 

I can't believe they didn't let the boyfriend's parents in on it. That was just wrong. On top of everything else, who knows what decisions they may have made based on this - financial, etc.

[Heather in Neverland]

It's lying. And it is lying on a really large scale.

 

Lying is wrong. Period. I would never support my child in project that required so much lying. That would be me telling my child that lying is OK.

 

It is interesting to me that there are people here who think doing the "Santa Claus" or "Tooth Fairy" thing is wrong because it is lying...but this OK because it is a "school project"?

[HeidiKC]

Her parents and principal "authorized" her lying to pretty much everyone she knows, including her own siblings and her boyfriend's parents - as if this didn't affect them at all and their own peace of mind was second to the great benefits of a social experiment.

 

I think it was a dishonest, unkind experiment, and while I am sure that things were learned, people faced prejudices, etc, I don't think that makes it right. I personally would lose trust in my parents and sister if they did this to me. I don't know how you repair the kind of damage that lying like that would do.

 

I would not have let my daughter make this decision, because I would feel she would not necessarily understand how dramatically and permanently she could damage relationships. I would not lie to my own parents and children. I would not lie to my neighbors. Not under these circumstances.

 

Totally agree. And I can't imagine her interactions with her friends and family (and boyfriend's family) on a daily basis! It wasn't just the one lie, "I'm pregnant", one time. I'm sure it was a major topic of conversation among people that cared about her. "How are you feeling?", "What are your plans for after the baby?", "Are you excited, scared, etc.?" I am not a good liar at all, and would fee so bad constantly lying to people who are concerned about me and my future.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

It is also lying (perhaps,....in a way...) when cancer patients (and other patients) HOPE that they get the drug when, in fact, they get placebos. I know that the difference is that they go into it knowing that they may be lied to, but, still, the hope is there and, most likely, the grief and disappointment when they discover that they may as well have taken Skittles for all the good it did them.

[Nakia]

I just really don't get what she proved with this project. That she could lie for 6 months and no one would find her out? That teen mothers have it tough? What was the point? I'm not being snarky, but I really would like to know what the benefit was.

 

I mean, I could do an experiment to find out what my husband would say if I told him I have been cheating on him. I could even convince my friends and family that I am an adulterer. I bet I could even get a man to go along with it. At what cost? There would be so much trust broken and all because I wanted to find out how people would treat me, a church-going, stable, supposed happily married mother of three who cheated. Well, I don't need a "project" to know how that would turn out.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Nakia

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I just really don't get what she proved with this project. That she could lie for 6 months and no one would find her out? That teen mothers have it tough? What was the point? I'm not being snarky, but I really would like to know what the benefit was.

 

I mean, I could do an experiment to find out what my husband would say if I told him I have been cheating on him. I could even convince my friends family that I am an adulterer. I bet I could even get a man to go along with it. At what cost? There would be so much trust broken and all because I wanted to find out how people would treat me, a church-going, stable, supposed happily married mother of three who cheated. Well, I don't need a "project" to know how that would turn out.

 

 

I don't think that her point was, so much to PROVE something, but to bring something to the attention of the general public, the school, etc.

 

 

Someone at work recently said something that was SO INCREDIBLY DISTURBING AND SHOCKING that my first thought was, "this MUST be a social experiment to gauge reaction!"

 

Unfortunately, I don't think it was. :001_huh:

[Nakia]

It is also lying (perhaps,....in a way...) when cancer patients (and other patients) HOPE that they get the drug when, in fact, they get placebos. I know that the difference is that they go into it knowing that they may be lied to, but, still, the hope is there and, most likely, the grief and disappointment when they discover that they may as well have taken Skittles for all the good it did them.

 

The difference is that those patients go into those studies knowingly. The boy's parents were, PERHAPS, deceived. None of us really know about that situation, of course. I guess my emotions just get in the way of seeing any true benefit to what she did.

[Murphy101]

What did she bring to the attention of the public/community?:confused:

 

As far as I can tell the only thing she brought to anyone's attention is that she is a liar who was encouraged by her mother, boyfriend, and principal to do so.:confused:

[ThatCyndiGirl]

What did she bring to the attention of the public/community?:confused:

 

As far as I can tell the only thing she brought to anyone's attention is that she is a liar who was encouraged by her mother, boyfriend, and principal to do so.:confused:

 

I get it that, to you she is nothing but a liar. This has been said before, but her study was about stigma and stereotypes. She was a straight-A student who most people would have thought of as "not the type to get pregnant."

 

I get it that you don't see the value in this. Some people do. I am in that group. It is not that she PROVED something, just that she did make SOME people think about this issue.

 

I have googled til my googler is sore to find something about HIS parents and how traumatized they may or may not have been. I found nothing either way. Maybe they were too upset to give interviews. I don't know.

 

I see value in it. She was NOT treated with accolades and respect when people thought she was pregnant. That is part of the point.

[Murphy101]

I get it that, to you she is nothing but a liar. This has been said before, but her study was about stigma and stereotypes. She was a straight-A student who most people would have thought of as "not the type to get pregnant."

 

:confused: But that IS what I mean. She wasn't stigmatized. And I have never met anyone who thinks only kids with a C average or less get pregnant. (If I ever do, I tell them they are being an idiot!) As far as I can tell, her "study" didn't show ANY of what you suggest.:confused:

 

She was NOT treated with accolades and respect when people thought she was pregnant. That is part of the point.

 

Wth? I've been with my dh for 21 years and I have ever once been given accolades or respect for being pregnant. It honestly never occurred to me that ANYONE deserves accolades or respect because they happen to be walking proof that they had sex?:confused:

 

It appears she did experience an outpouring of concern and support from her school, family, and community. If anything her study shows society has come a LONG way in accepting unwed mothers and in giving unwed teens the choice to keep the babies, both during pregnancy and afterwards.:)

 

ETA: I don't think she is nothing but a liar. I have no way of knowing that based on this. What I do think is she lived a lie 24/7 for 6 months (keep in mind, even at home she lied to her siblings) and any adult who encouraged that was irresponsible and negligent in their guidance of her.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Martha

[Impish]

Accolades and respect for being pregnant? Hows that work?

 

I mean...when we were expecting Princess, I was raked over the coals for daring to have a 4th child. Happily married, etc, but FOUR children? :svengo:

[LibraryLover]

Martha! Geesh, cut this poor girl some slack. I can think of worse things a young student might do-- and having nothing whatever in common with a decent sociology project. :tongue_smilie:

Edited April 25, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Jenny in Florida]

What did she bring to the attention of the public/community?

 

One article I read said that she is preparing a report about her experiences to present to a board of community members.

 

Apparently, teen pregnancies are a specific concern in her neck of the woods.

 

But that IS what I mean. She wasn't stigmatized.

 

How do we know that? I read several articles online and couldn't find any that qouted more than one or two of the statements read during her presentation at school. However, everything I read gave the impression that this had not been a easy experience.

 

Here's the thing: I've done the pregnancy journey "both ways," as an unmarried teen and as a married adult. They are entirely different experiences. Even with a supportive family and friends, being a pregnant teen is tough. In my day, I was still encouraged to drop out of high school or switch to night or continuation school once I started showing. (And I, too, was an excellent, obviously college-bound student.)

 

Apparently, she planned this project for almost two years and did a fair amount of research in addition to her "performance" at school. She also worked with mentors from a local hospital's childbirth education program. This wasn't something she did on a lark because she wanted to lie to or fool people. She obviously thought she was doing something valuable, and her principal agreed.

 

I agree that I have a kind of quesy feeling about the boyfriend's parents, although the fact that he is 20 changes the picture somewhat for me. I wish they had been included, but maybe having to cope with that aspect of the scenario was one of the things she wanted to explore.

 

I've done some searching and can't find much more information than was included in the original link. I certainly don't see any facts to support many of the accusations being made here. Clearly, this is a hot-button issue for a lot of people, and feelings are running pretty strong.

 

I wonder what she would think of the conversation here?

[Murphy101]

Martha! Geesh, cut this poor girl some slack. I can think of worse things a young student might do-- and having nothing whatever in common with a decent sociology project. :tongue_smilie:

 

:001_huh: Cut her slack? She did this for attention and then when she doesn't get the kind of attention she wants - oh woe is her? And btw, I have more of an issue with her mother and that principal than her. I fully expect teens to do foolish things without thinking out all the logic. They are young and inexperienced, so that is part of the package. Her mother and the principal will get no slack from me though.

 

As for "well it could have been worse."

 

I don't have much tolerance for that in my home. Every single kid in my home has more expected of him/her than to not do drugs or commit murder and mayhem. I extend that to every other child outside my home. They are absolutely capable of more than the low expectations people lead them to believe.

[ThatCyndiGirl]

I didn't mean to imply that pregnancy DESERVES accolades/respect. I was correcting an earlier implication that someone said about "she got nothing but concern/respect from the community/people in the school" when people thought she was pregnant.

 

Clear as mud? I was not saying that she should have been lauded for being a pregnant teen. If I was not clear on that point I apologize.

 

IMO, from what I read in the article she WAS stigmatized. I won't continue to go round and round about this, but was MY take on the articles I read. I recognized that others may have come away with different POV's. Feeling/hearing disappointment from family members/teachers/friends IS part of the stigma. Having family members who are upset that you and your dh are pg with subsequent children, imo is NOT the same.

 

Teen pregnancies are a BIG issue in her school/community. She was attempting to address a specific population and a specific issue.

 

I was also misunderstood in the "only C students and below get pg". NOT what I'm saying. I don't think that anyone believes that A students don't get pregnant. People DO seem MORE surprised when a good student gets pregnant, that's all I meant and I think that THAT was part of her point as well. She was going against THAT particular stereotype, that only "poor, lower-letter-grade students" get pregnant.

 

Martha, really! She didn't do this "for attention". It was a social research study. Completely different than, "Haha! I fooled you!!"

[LibraryLover]

Come come come. Come come come on. We need a little 'Drink wine and have some tea' smilie. :tongue_smilie:

 

:001_huh: Cut her slack? She did this for attention and then when she doesn't get the kind of attention she wants - oh woe is her? And btw, I have more of an issue with her mother and that principal than her. I fully expect teens to do foolish things without thinking out all the logic. They are young and inexperienced, so that is part of the package. Her mother and the principal will get no slack from me though.

 

As for "well it could have been worse."

 

I don't have much tolerance for that in my home. Every single kid in my home has more expected of him/her than to not do drugs or commit murder and mayhem. I extend that to every other child outside my home. They are absolutely capable of more than the low expectations people lead them to believe.

Edited April 25, 2011 by LibraryLover
Because Impish said I typed 'dink'! lol I did!! lol

[Impish]

Come come come. Come come come on. We need a little 'Dink wine and have some tea' smilie. :tongue_smilie:

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

[JadeOrchidSong]

Let's face it: What's wrong about calling a lie a lie? Why should her parents and principal's approval give a pass for manipulating other people's feelings (love or hate, hope or despair)?

 

So if she had let her boyfriend's parents know, then it would have been OK?

 

What about her own siblings? What about her best friends? What about her teachers and her classmates, or anyone who cared about her? Do they deserve going through the drama and the ups and downs of emotions only to find out it was a lie? People's emotions were being manipulated by a lie. There are more people that are affected than just her own parents. I would say this is totally irresponsible.

 

I also don't get the point about how many people should be told in order to do a research well. Is a research more valuable than people? In a research, participants know they are given either A, or B, or C. In this case, people were in the blind and put in this situation without knowing they were in a research.

Edited April 25, 2011 by aomom

[Murphy101]

I'll give she was misguided enough to not view this for personal attention but for science project. Okay.

 

I still don't see how she did anything beneficial for teen unwed mothers.

It's already a very well known problem, so no e lightenment there.

 

I do not equate the disappointment of family and friends with stigma and shame. I mean come on here, IS there any other rational reaction from those who truly care than to express concern for relationships, income, and education?:confused:

 

Maybe it was difficult. So what? Is that news? Are we saying it should be easy? Because if so, it has NEVER been easier (tho still difficult) than it is now for a teen unwed mother. None of them have to drop out of school. In almost every state they have daycare and health access. It is certainly easier to decide to keep their baby than 30 years ago.

 

Hmmm.. As for the low grades/poor kids getting pregnant while unwed stereotype. Idk. If you say it exists, then I'm willing to consider it.

 

I didn't say it was haha I fooled you attention.

It was still specificly to garner attention for her project - unwed teen pregnancy. I make no speculation as to her heart motives for that attention. Idk that. But it is very clear she wanting to bring attention to this issue.

 

I'm simply arguing that A) it already has plenty of attention and B) this was a crummy useless way to do it.

[LibraryLover]

:auto: Don't forget to tip your waitress. :)

 

:smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5:

Edited April 26, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Joker]

I don't get the outrage. The articles I've read have stated how in her social circles/area the Hispanic rate of teen pregnancies are staggering and she wanted a better understanding of what the girls go through and to point out certain judgemental issues. One article stated that she wanted to pursue a career as a social worker so this experiment might be beneficial to her in that capacity. None of us know the reason why the boyfriend's parents weren't told so we shouldn't speculate she's a horrible person for not telling -- he could have.

[Jenny in Florida]

IMO, from what I read in the article she WAS stigmatized. I won't continue to go round and round about this, but was MY take on the articles I read. I recognized that others may have come away with different POV's. Feeling/hearing disappointment from family members/teachers/friends IS part of the stigma. Having family members who are upset that you and your dh are pg with subsequent children, imo is NOT the same.

Teen pregnancies are a BIG issue in her school/community. She was attempting to address a specific population and a specific issue.

That's what I got from the several articles I read.

Sometimes, "everyone knows" something is a problem, but it is not until one individual personalizes it, gives it a face, that we begin to really understand. From what I read, she did get a lot of negative attention. One video I watched said that she felt alienated and isolated. After this project, I'm willing to bet that at least a few kids at her school (and maybe people nationally who read about her project) will re-examine how they treat pregnant teens.

I’m thinking of famous projects such as Black Like Me, for example. And there have been any number of fictionalized versions of this, like Gentlemen’s Agreement.

All of these projects are attempts to understand others (and help your community understand them) more deeply by walking in the others’ shoes. It seems to me that is exactly what this girl tried to do.

I don't get the outrage. The articles I've read have stated how in her social circles/area the Hispanic rate of teen pregnancies are staggering and she wanted a better understanding of what the girls go through and to point out certain judgemental issues. One article stated that she wanted to pursue a career as a social worker so this experiment might be beneficial to her in that capacity.

Exactly.

[Mom0012]

ONLY her mother, boyfriend, and principal were in on it. Not her siblings. Not her boyfriend's parents.

 

Present her "findings" to community leaders? What findings? That it sucks to be a pregnant teen? Gee. How enlightening.

 

She is an attention seeking liar with mother and an idiot principal approval.

 

Nothing courageous or smart or educational about what she did.

 

:iagree: Think about what she put the boyfriend's parents through in particular. And just for fun and her own self-centered curiosity. It's bad enough that she would pull something like this, but that her mother and the principal went along with it? I think they both need a good lesson in empathy.

 

Lisa

[jenangelcat]

ONLY her mother, boyfriend, and principal were in on it. Not her siblings. Not her boyfriend's parents.

 

Present her "findings" to community leaders? What findings? That it sucks to be a pregnant teen? Gee. How enlightening.

 

She is an attention seeking liar with mother and an idiot principal approval.

 

Nothing courageous or smart or educational about what she did.

 

Nice. She's not an attention seeking liar. She'll be getting a degree in sociology after highschool Her research makes perfect sense in the scope of her career interests.

[Ester Maria]

She didn't bring anything to light that anyone with half a brain wasn't aware of prior.

Again, Martha (and everyone else), what do you expect from a senior project / graduation thesis? 'cause I have pretty high academic expectations, and I don't expect any 18-19 yo to be doing genuinely new science for a graduation project, to break ice with new discoveries, to point out to what has not been pointed out before.

 

Graduation theses / projects aren't very scientifically ambitious undertakings on that level of education. The point is to show that you are able to research a topic, present it systematically in writing while forming a meaningful thesis or stance, write all of that in correct standard Italian tieing it to something that has been studied on a high school level, make it presentable and get the format of a research paper / thesis correct, and defend that in front of the commission. Maybe the girl didn't have the commission part but presentation in front of other students part, whatever. The point is, there was no expectation to do genuinely new science. She did not even get the systematic scientific training to be able to do that.

 

And she still, IMO, took it to a whole new level involving the practical dimension and the experiment which affected six months of her life. If nothing else, maybe one can appreciate the guts to do that.

And I still think that all people for whose lives it would have mattered (family, siblings, etc.) should have been told. Others were not told because it would have ruined the whole thing, you know how chattery teens are, and for them, it bears no actual life-changing significance. They are only tangentally involved, if at all.

 

Does it make it "okay"? Again, we can debate that, but if so, we must do it in the context of (social) sciences experiments, where deceit is often crucial for the project to succeed, even if people know they are a part of the experiment.

So let's say a girl wants to do an experiment to find out if her boyfriend really loves her. I guess it would be a brilliant and courageous idea to lie to him that she is pregnant to see how he reacts? Maybe if her mother and school counselor encourage her to do so that would make it okay?

No, that is a singular instance of emotional manipulation which cannot even "prove" anything or count for an experiment as any result would be anecdotal - but a deceit of the kind she did involved a whole community, where one could even postulate some things and get a diversity of reactions and opinions. And I repeat, and insist on it, that everyone for whose lives this had a potential of life-changing thing had to know (unless the boy's parents are totally absent from his life, what do we know, it was cruel towards them and I do not approve of that).

The idea that we somehow hinder scientific progress by doing so is accurate, I suppose, but scientific progress is already "hindered" by disallowing many kinds of experiments that almost all of us agree should not be allowed. The debatable issue isn't whether scientific progress is being helped or hindered, but rather, where do we draw the line?

I agree - it is a question of "where do you draw the line".

 

Personally, which might surprise some people on here, I am among the more stringent people when it comes to drawing lines. There are many things I do not allow solely because of the "where do you draw the line" question. And I am not even sure that I would, from the parental point of view, back up my own kid in doing such a project. However, I do not consider it inherently more problematic than numerous experiments much more dangerous than that one, with much more real consequences, which were done before and will be done in the future, and if we are discussing the problematic aspect of such experiments (which is real and does exist), it must be done in the context of other experiments done in a way which included some form of deceit.

 

The ethics of science experiments is a very rocky terrain to walk on and it is a point that has to be made and discussed. I dislike how the kid got portrayed exclusively through the prism of morally debatable aspect of her experiment.

Lying is wrong. Period. I would never support my child in project that required so much lying. That would be me telling my child that lying is OK.

I understand that there are people with absolute morals who go at great lengths to avoid even "white lies", because they find it incompatible with their worldview and morals. I respect that.

 

But some people's moral constitution allows for some "flexibility" even when it comes to what are absolutes for some other people (i.e. "lying, while in a principle morally unjustified, might be needed in some cases, and some research might depend on people being deceived") and I am not sure that writing them off as "liars" and nothing more is completely fair. A sort of, viewing them exclusively through that prism and viewing this project exclusively through that prism. What if the kid really wrote a killer thesis, well documented, above and beyond what was expected on a high school level? Can we acknowledge that possibility and note that maybe we respect that, even if we have our own reservations about the ethics of the project?

I just really don't get what she proved with this project. That she could lie for 6 months and no one would find her out? That teen mothers have it tough? What was the point? I'm not being snarky, but I really would like to know what the benefit was.

Same response as to Martha - what level of academic sophistication you expect from a senior project? The girl was not even supposed to do genuinely new science. I find it a bit uncomfortable how many of you refer to this specific point. I normally do not view myself as an academic slacker, but I really don't expect authentic science and authentic contributions on a high school level. :001_huh: Simulating that, yes (is not the point of such projects to learn how to do it, more than to genuinely do it?). Which is what the kid did.

As for "well it could have been worse."

 

I don't have much tolerance for that in my home.

Me neither, really. But we must discuss this in the context of experiments of this kind, which rarely spark ethical discussions, and maybe they should. I am not defending the girl in absolute, rather, I am providing for some of that context which I feel is lacking in this discussion.

I'm simply arguing that A) it already has plenty of attention and B) this was a crummy useless way to do it.

A) I agree. But, so does nearly any topic which was used for a high school project that I know of. I do not think inventing new science should be a criterion for topics for graduation papers.

B) Maybe. But, does it mean that we pose a criterion that the way kids do those projects has to be useful and not crummy? Because nearly all graduation theses and projects done on this level of education that I know of are certainly useless in real scientific context and certainly crummy, in that they cannot compete with real science and the professional way of doing things. And very often they are pretentious and dramatic, just like people who write them at that stage of life. ;)

 

I get where you are coming from, I really believe that I do; I just still find that in this instance the girl is faced with, maybe, too harsh criticism. Or at least criticism which is not mitigated with a recognition that there is an aspect of courage and determination to carry out such a project and, if the project is indeed done on a good academic level, recognition for that.

Edited April 25, 2011 by Ester Maria
spelling

[Mejane]

I agree with Ester Maria that such projects are more for individual enlightenment than that anything new and exciting will be added to the scientific community. If we used that criteria, we'd certainly never do a homeschool project like growing beans in a pot. There are useless experiments by "real" scientists going on everyday that cost millions of tax dollars. Those are far more aggravating to me. :glare: