Public transit question

[pfamilygal]

So I was listening to NPR this morning on the way to work and they had a documentary on public transit. I live in Arlington, TX - the largest city in the US with absolutely no public transit. And while I'd like to think I would use it if it were available, I wonder about the logistics.

 

Do large families really use it? And how? I can't imagine taking 6 kids on a bus or train to the grocery store. How would you get your stuff home?

[Amira]

I only have three children so my family isn't large, but yes, we do use public transportation. It's not always easy. We have to do some of our grocery shopping in a city that's more than an hour away and getting the groceries and the children home on a bus isn't always fun. But I can do most of our shopping within a 20-minute walk of our house, so usually it's okay.

 

Personally I much prefer to walk or ride bikes over public transportation or driving and that plays a huge role when we are choosing where to live. I find it MUCH easier to run errands when I can walk to everything I need.

 

But to answer your more general question, no, I don't think public transportation in the US really fits the needs of larger families when they want to go somewhere together. I think it's entirely reasonable for a family with children to have one car. Cheaper too, probably, than paying for bus fare all the time. At least at US rates.

[regentrude]

I am from Germany and everybody uses public transit. Many people do not have cars. Kids use public transit independently when they are 8.

you can buy family tickets which allow the whole family to ride together at a very low rate, so you do not pay for seven individual tickets.

I see no reason why a larger family should not be able to use public transit. Why would that be a problem? Unless you have sextuplets which are all babies at the same time, there will be some kids who can walk and maybe some who are in a stroller which you wheel into the bus/tram.

As far as shopping goes: if you don't have a car, you go more often. Not a problem. You carry shopping bags or a trolley or a backpack. My friend has five kids, she does her shopping by bicycle with a trailer. My grandmother did the shopping for our family of six; she just walked to the store every day.

The availability of public transit does not mean that everybody has to use it for every kind of errand. Just that it is one more option. Most people will still do a big weekly grocery shopping by car - but might take public transit at other times when they do not have to transport large loads.

[alpidarkomama]

Roundtrip adult bus fare here (Savannah) is $3 (or 3/4 gallon of gas). 3/4 gallon of gas can get me 15 miles. I RARELY go more than 15 miles in a day, so for us it's just not worth it.

 

DH takes the car to work Monday/Thursday/Friday (days we can walk to anything we need to do). We have the car Tuesday and Wednesday. He buses the other days. He's happy to bus all 5 days too, but he might as well take the car when we don't need it (slightly cheaper than bus fare + free parking).

 

We've been a one-car family for a long time, and rarely has it been an inconvenience. And even an inconvenience can usually be worked around. Worst case scenario, we would need to get a rental for a day. MUCH cheaper than buying and maintaining a second vehicle!

[Ravin]

We currently have no other option as our van is broken. We seldom do grocery shopping a bus ride away, though. We either shop at the grocery store 1/4 mile from our house, or I bring things home from work (a walmart 2.5 mi. from our house). We've been using the bike trailer/stroller for grocery trips. I also take up offers of rides to the store from friends.

 

Taking a stroller on the bus here is a hassle because you have to collapse it to take it on, so I've always preferred carrying the baby in a sling for bus trips.

 

Our city provides free bus passes for school-aged children, and under 6 ride free with an adult. A 1-day pass bought ahead (rather than on the bus) is just $3.50. Our system doesn't do transfers, so if you're going to have 2 buses to ride, either for a round trip or because you must transfer, a day pass is called for--but they're $5.25 if bought on the bus, so I buy them ahead of time at the library.

 

Even if we had a car, I'd use the bus/train for trips into downtown Phoenix. Don't have to worry about navigating downtown traffic, parking in a big parking garage, paying for parking, validating parking, etc. and the train is convenient to many museums.

 

Of course, the heat makes a car win out for those who have them 9 mo. of the year. The buses are air conditioned, but there's a lot of walking and waiting in the heat to consider!

 

Once I'm back to work, I may invest in a monthly pass, if I'm going to be riding often enough to justify the expense--you really have to use it often to make it cheaper than buying 1-day passes. My husband gets a subsidized pass for the school year as a college student. Even when our vehicle was working it was more practical for him to commute to campus on the bus. The parking situation there is insane.

[pfamilygal]

Okay, I could see using it for the park or museum or day trip. I always have the baby in a sling anyway.

 

Shopping is the one thing that baffled me. I shop in bulk at Costco, so I couldn't imagine wrestling a case of TP, 20 lb of cheese and 40 lb of meat onto a bus with 6 kids. I hate shopping, so I try to do it as little as possible.

[regentrude]

Taking a stroller on the bus here is a hassle because you have to collapse it to take it on, so I've always preferred carrying the baby in a sling for bus trips.

 

 

Yes, I noticed that when I lived in Eugene and had an infant and a 2 y/o.

It is stupid, and I have never encountered anything like this in Europe- there, you just roll your stroller onto the bus/tram and leave the kids in. Maybe this needs to change here, in order to make it easier for families.

(All I can think about: there must be some dumb liability reason... or they just use poorly designed vehicles.)

[emzhengjiu]

We live near Dallas, Texas. My 14 yo dd takes the Dart train weekly. It is saving us a huge amount over driving. I don't like the bus service in this area, though. It takes forever to get where you want to go.

 

Ann

[Murmer]

We have FREE public transportation...and I have never used it. Mostly it is inconvenient to get to the places I want to go with 2 small children...especially one that is very very impulsive. I have been thinking lately maybe we will try it but looking at routes and times it is still really hard...things like getting the library for story hour 30 mins early but also having to wait 30 mins after for the bus and with a busy little girl that is recipe for disaster.

[LibraryLover]

I 've done it in NYC, DC, Boston with four children, including a baby. For subways, you just wheel the baby on, and for some buses here, you do have to take the baby out of the stroller, which is annoying. However, I used to take a bus to Cambridge from Boston, and was able to manage with a small umbrella stroller. I'd carry the whole thing up with baby in it, & stand in the aisle. People do it all the time.

 

Of course, other countries have actual platforms: a person with a buggy can stand on that, and get lifted right into the bus, leaving the baby peacefully sleeping in the pram. (And...nice prams have amazing storage opportuinies, including full footprint of stroller underneath.) I had a friend in Brookline who had a big prammy-type stroller. She would wear the baby on her back, or put the baby in a seat attachment on the handles, and fill the buggy with food from the market. People also use little carts on wheels. I've seen that quite a biit in Brookline: babies in Ergo baby carriers, with parent pullling the storage trolley.

 

As for Costco, did you ever see the Seinfiled episode where Kramer tried that in an apartment? lol (The one where he borrows a friend's horse & buggy to do carraige rides?) They are not common in cities, but I suppose one could rent a car once a month for that and go to the 'burbs.

Edited April 17, 2011 by LibraryLover

[Ravin]

Shopping is the one thing that baffled me. I shop in bulk at Costco, so I couldn't imagine wrestling a case of TP, 20 lb of cheese and 40 lb of meat onto a bus with 6 kids. I hate shopping, so I try to do it as little as possible.

 

Since I work at a store, I can just bring a few things at a time home on the bus/bike each day. Bulk shopping is where the aid of friends comes in--but I try not to do that too often, gas being what it is, unless I can chip in for gas.

[Crimson Wife]

I see no reason why a larger family should not be able to use public transit. Why would that be a problem?

 

I'm going to have to say that using public transit with only 2 kids is a whole lot easier than using it with more.

 

We have only one car and if DH needs it for some reason, then I'm stuck taking public transit. It was not too bad back when I only had 2 kids, but adding a 3rd into the mix made it a LOT more difficult.

 

With 2 kids, I could hold on to each one's hand. With 3, I have to trust my 8 y.o. to look after herself. Usually she can, but if she's tired or overstimulated, her judgment isn't always the best.

 

I cannot imagine trying to deal with public transit with 6 kids 10 and under like the OP.

[Cheryl in NM]

I know that when we visited DC it was cheaper for us to drive into the city and pay for parking than to take the Metro. There were only 4 of us, but we had to pay full price tickets. I also decided to take the boys to the library once, it was 3 miles from our house, but 45 minutes on the bus! It was ridiculous!

 

Here, near Albuquerque, we have the Railrunner. It is a train that runs about 75 miles and connects the Albuquerque metro area up to Santa Fe. With gas prices what they are now, it is slightly cheaper, but only Albuquerque has a bus system, the rest of the stops on the Railrunner don't have adequate bus connections.

[Snickerdoodle]

If you live in a big city and don't have a car, you think twice about what kinds of things you bring home from the grocery store.

 

If you live in the city, you probably don't have much storage space for bulk sized items. ;)

[ocelotmom]

I used to be dedicated to using mass transit, but it becomes a lot less cost-effective when you have to pay for each additional person, especially if there is no significant child discount.

[nmoira]

We're a two-child, one car family. DH takes the car on weekdays, and the girls and I take public transit almost everywhere. Youth trips cost $1.50 (receipt usually good for 2 or 3 hours reboarding), but a monthy youth pass is a good deal at $26. Since children under 7 are free, DD the Younger rides for free until July. I pay $2.05 per adult ticket (it's not cost effective for me to get an $88 monthly pass).

 

When we bought a house, we chose carefully and with transit in mind. We're a 10-minute bus ride from the MAX (light rail) and on a frequent service bus line. We're also close to downtown. There's a Whole Foods and a library branch three blocks away, and a large park and a school yard within walking distance.

 

There's a Zip Car parked three blocks away ($7.50 per hour, gas, insurance included in price; value plans available), and another five blocks away. I don't use them at present because I don't like lugging around a car seat; however, it's something I'll consider when DD the Younger turns 8 in 2012. We take a cab to OMSI in the winter (buses are available in summer) because there's no bus service to OMSI and it's a nasty walk in the rain from the closest stop. OMSI will be serviced by a street car by fall 2012. Yay!

 

Obviously, at some point, it's more cost effective to have a car or use a Zip Car (provided one with enough seats is conveniently located); my best guess would be four children aged 7 and over, 3 or more round-way trips per week. I wouldn't want to consider large grocery shopping trips while taking a bus, but friends use Zip cars or take cabs for large trips. One or two big trips a month is still much cheaper than owning a car. [We get groceries delivered, but the store is discontinuing this service as of the end of next week. :( ]

Edited April 17, 2011 by nmoira

[JennyD]

One thing to keep in mind is that kids who use public transportation all the time are accustomed to it. Not that I'm going to pack him off solo anytime soon, but my almost-6yo (who has been riding subways and buses his whole life) could easily navigate himself to our usual destinations, and probably to some new ones as well. In fact, at this point I'd say that he's actually a net benefit; he carries small packages, helps his little brother through the turnstiles, etc. Even my 3yo knows the drill pretty well. Dealing with twin toddlers or (oy) triplets would be daunting, for sure, but once the kids are out of strollers and walking well it's just not a big deal.

 

This is in sharp contrast to the car -- my kids are not nearly so used to taking the car and getting everyone in and out with the carseats, etc. is a major production, requiring numerous reminders about keeping one hand on the car in the parking garage, not unbuckling the seat, and so on. And my 8 mo just screams bloody murder pretty much the whole time in the car (this is a common issue with city kids, by the way, and his older brothers did the same thing for most of the first year). Sometimes we will actually take public transport instead of the car specifically to avoid the screaming.

 

I do agree that grocery shopping on foot or public transit is a massive hassle, and I try to avoid that as much as possible by doing the bulk of my shopping through a delivery service. (When nobody is shopping by car, a lot of stores offer delivery.) Also, around here there are no family passes, although kids under 44" tall ride free, so at some point it can actually be more cost effective to drive, even factoring in the enormous parking charges.

Edited April 17, 2011 by JennyD

[pfamilygal]

We're a two-child, one car family. DH takes the car on weekdays, and the girls and I take public transit almost everywhere. Youth trips cost $1.50 (receipt usually good for 2 or 3 hours reboarding), but a monthy youth pass is fantastic deal at $26. Since children under 7 are free, DD the Younger rides for free until July. I pay $2.05 per adult ticket (it's not cost effective for me to get an $88 monthly pass).

 

When we bought a house, we chose carefully and with transit in mind. We're a 10-minute bus ride from the MAX (light rail) and on a frequent service bus line. We're also close to downtown. There's a Whole Foods and a library branch three blocks away, and a large park and a school yard within walking distance.

 

There's a Zip Car parked three blocks away ($7.50 per hour, gas, insurance included in price; value plans available), and another five blocks away. I don't use them at present because I don't like lugging around a car seat; however, it's something I'll consider when DD the Younger turns 8 in 2012. We take a cab to OMSI in the winter (buses are available in summer) because there's no bus service to OMSI and it's a nasty walk in the rain from the closest stop. OMSI will be serviced by a street car by fall 2012. Yay!

 

Obviously, at some point, it's more cost effective to have a car or use a Zip Car (provided one with enough seats is conveniently located); my best guess would be four children aged 7 and over, 3 or more round-way trips per week. I wouldn't want to consider large grocery shopping trips while taking a bus, but friends use Zip cars or take cabs for large trips. One or two big trips a month is still much cheaper than owning a car. [We get groceries delivered, but the store is discontinuing this service as of the end of next week. :( ]

 

 

Yeah, I have 5 in carseats. I can't even imagine.

[nmoira]

I am from Germany and everybody uses public transit. Many people do not have cars. Kids use public transit independently when they are 8.

you can buy family tickets which allow the whole family to ride together at a very low rate, so you do not pay for seven individual tickets.

I see no reason why a larger family should not be able to use public transit. Why would that be a problem?

You might have answered your own question. How substantial is the discount? And at what point does car ownership become more cost effective? I suspect the cross-over point is significantly higher in Europe in general than in the US, even when compared to cities like Portland that are relatively well served by transit.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

In theory public transit should give choices but it most places (in the US) it is just inadequate. Planners are just told not to expect families with children to ride, especially on buses. Most people right now will not ride a public bus even if it is available. There are many reasons for this but one of them is that the first experience most people have with buses (to and from school) is a bad one. I think electic streetcars and trolleys may have a brighter future but buses are going to be a problem. The new street cars are low enough for handicap access from the curb but they are rare. I expect the rise in gas prices to force more people away from the car but our local Tea Party is calling anything mass transit a communist. The best bet is to live in a neighborhood with a mix of residential and commercial (and churches and offices and recreation). That way pubic transit will not matter as much.

[....]

Yes! When we lived in Chicago, we used it all the time. In fact, there were months where I just parked my car and never drove anywhere.

 

We're also in Fort Worth and shocked that there's no train for my husband to take to work. :lol: (yes, we're weird)

[nmoira]

I think electic streetcars and trolleys may have a brighter future but buses are going to be a problem. The new street cars are low enough for handicap access from the curb but they are rare.

But you have to have a strong bus feeder system outside the core service area(s) for street cars and light rail to work. I'd be surprised if any US cities were dense enough to move to an all-streetcar model. FWIW, all the newer buses that I've seen kneel to curb level, requiring only a short ramp to extend for wheelchair or walker access (i.e. no lift required).

 

I expect the rise in gas prices to force more people away from the car but our local Tea Party is calling anything mass transit a communist. The best bet is to live in a neighborhood with a mix of residential and commercial (and churches and offices and recreation). That way pubic transit will not matter as much.

*sigh* :(

[Ravin]

I used to be dedicated to using mass transit, but it becomes a lot less cost-effective when you have to pay for each additional person, especially if there is no significant child discount.

 

Here, there are reduced fares for school-aged children, and it's free under 6. Plus, there's the free passes for school kids in my city--we got DD one even when not using the bus regularly, as it's valid for a year or so.

[Daisy]

We only have one car so there are times when I use public transportation. My kids love it. LOL. It costs us $3 for a full-day pass. We bring backpacks and all help carry something. If you ride the bus, you are not doing one a month type shopping. You buy a little here and a little there and only what you can carry.

 

I rode the bus to the mall with the kids this pass week to do our Easter clothes shopping. It was a lot easier and faster than trying to find a parking spot.

[AngelaNYC]

In NYC it is the best thing. No one really uses it for large grocery shopping - usually everything we need is in walking distance. My family uses it to get to and from work, school, homeschool classes, field trips, visiting friends, etc. Dh and the girls use it at least 5 days a week. Ds and I use it around 2-3 times a week. The city gives all the kids free Metrocards so dh and I only pay for ourselves. $2.25 a ride.

 

We still use a car for everything else, though.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

 

But you have to have a strong bus feeder system outside the core service area(s) for street cars and light rail to work.

 

 

 

If people will not ride buses than it does not matter as much if there is a feeder system. Maybe the street cars should just run from Central Business Districts to colleges or areas with big parking lots (like the elevated trams at Disney World. When streetcars were first used there was no bus system. Cities will have to stop providing free parking in the downtown areas for this to work. This will also allow cities to get more dense. Parking requirements are the biggest reason for low density development in down towns. I think something will have to change before to long.

 

It amazies me how backward the communist critizism is because much of our current city planning practices comes right from socialist and communist like Le Corbusier and Oscar Niemeyer. They championed seperation of land uses, grade separation for streets and automobile dependence.

[Tap]

We have a pretty good system here and yes, a lot of families use it.

 

We are close to a largish city and I know some people who don't have a car or even a drivers license.

 

 

We planned to buy ds16 a car for him to drive this year. He got used to riding the bus before we bought the car, so when it came time to buy one, turned down the offer on the car. He likes riding the bus and loves how cheap it is compared to paying for gas. As a college student he gets a 3 mth, unlimited bus pas for $20. There is a bus stop about 1/2 a mile from the house, so he has to walk to the stop, but it goes about every 30 minutes so he doesn't have to wait too long.

 

 

His two best friends, his work, his church, his school and our house are all within a 10 minute walk to a bus stop. It works out great for him.

[TrixieB]

Yes, I noticed that when I lived in Eugene and had an infant and a 2 y/o.

It is stupid, and I have never encountered anything like this in Europe- there, you just roll your stroller onto the bus/tram and leave the kids in. Maybe this needs to change here, in order to make it easier for families.

(All I can think about: there must be some dumb liability reason... or they just use poorly designed vehicles.)

Some buses here "kneel" so you can roll the stroller right on. Others have stairs at the front door, and you might be able to convince the driver to lower the wheelchair lift, but I don't know if the driver is required to do so. You could park the stroller in one of the wheelchair areas but would have to move if a disabled rider needed the space for his/her chair.

 

Do buses in Europe have extra areas for strollers? Or are the buses designed for mostly standing passengers so the interior is floor space instead of seats?

[nmoira]

If people will not ride buses than it does not matter as much if there is a feeder system.

People ride buses here, even people in suits (at least during rush hour). :001_smile:

 

Maybe the street cars should just run from Central Business Districts to colleges or areas with big parking lots (like the elevated trams at Disney World. When streetcars were first used there was no bus system.

True, but we have to deal with things as they are now. We cannot structure transportation systems for how we'd like things to be decades from now or how they were decades in the past. We've seen this with Portland metro area with light rail: The most popular trains are those with the strongest feeder systems. Park-and-rides are effective to a certain degree for business commuters, but when park-and-rides are not conveniently located with respect to either foot for bus access, light rail routes are less effective (e.g. Tri-met's Clackamas line and the disastrous WES to Wilsonville).

 

Cities will have to stop providing free parking in the downtown areas for this to work. This will also allow cities to get more dense. Parking requirements are the biggest reason for low density development in down towns. I think something will have to change before to long.

But, I think it's a mistake to structure transportation system with solely business commuters in mind, especially if we pre-suppose they will drive a car for at least part of their trip. The age-old problem in large cities is that those who work in service industries can't afford to live close to the cores and must commute. They just don't have the kind of job security (and fewer do these days) to choose to live near work. Streetcars can't provide the type of flexibility, especially not the way we build them now (these are multi-year projects that take years to get funding straightened out, forget the engineering and feasibility studies, etc.).

 

We're not going to wave a magic wand and shrink existing lots sizes, move houses to the curb, and install sidewalks where none exist. Neither is there a magic wand to clear create walkable destinations in areas completely covered with residential building and commercial areas designated only where collector streets merge with more major streets.

 

I do agree about core parking, but think it's a mistake to start charging (or raising fees) for parking until alternatives exists. Core areas in medium sized cities are under enough pressure already without adding needlessly to their woes.

 

It amazies me how backward the communist critizism is because much of our current city planning practices comes right from socialist and communist like Le Corbusier and Oscar Niemeyer. They championed seperation of land uses, grade separation for streets and automobile dependence.

I think Robert Moses may have played a hand in creating this mess. ;) Edited April 17, 2011 by nmoira
clarity

[Murphy101]

I would love a reliable, clean transit option.

 

Here it is a joke and quite frankly I think it should be scraped and renamed, The Desperate Disabled Homeless transportation option.

 

Seriously. They are few and far between stops at stupid places about the city. For example, you have to drive your car to designated out of the way locations, then it will take you downtown. Thing is MOST people here do not live or work downtown. But the mayor wants to encourage business and traffic downtown, so that's where it goes. Stupid. Also it doesnt start oicking uo before 8 and never runs after 5pm. They are unreliable (the 5pm bus might be there at 4:45 or it might be there at 5:30) and rather expensive and a hassle. Our roads are also not built to handle transit. When the bus stops at the curb, all traffic behind it stops.

 

A transit system like Denver or even kansas city would be great and when we visited those places, we enjoyed using their transit systems and really bemoaned the lack in our comparably sized to them hometown.

 

Transit here will likely NEVER replace individual car ownership. Our cities here just aren't built for pedestrian or cycling options. You are seriously taking your life in your own hands to do that here, IMO. And communities haven't been built around that style. It would take me a good harrowing 2 mile walk to get get to the nearest grocery store for example. I actually wouldn't mind loading the littles into a stroller and making that walk. But no sidewalk and narrow busy streets is just a bit too hazardous for my taste. All it would take is tripping at the wrong moment and landing in the wrong direction to end up 40 mph wheels.

 

Also, kids might be reduced bus fare, but it is still more. I can't imagine bus fare for 10-11 would be cheaper here than gas for even my big van. Which brings the other issue. On crowded buses, can they even seat us all? Often restaurants can't, so I wonder if it would be an issue on some bus routes? Is that a dumb question? Idk.

[Crimson Wife]

Cities will have to stop providing free parking in the downtown areas for this to work.

 

What cities have free downtown parking? :confused: I've never lived in/near one that had reasonably-priced parking.

[Pretty in Pink]

I spent 12 years in Germany and yes, we used public transit. Extensively. If it were available in my city I would use it as much as possible. It would be just another thing that we did to lessen our 'carbon footprint'.

 

When I was a kid, I always thought that taking public transportation was a hoot!

[regentrude]

You might have answered your own question. How substantial is the discount? And at what point does car ownership become more cost effective? I suspect the cross-over point is significantly higher in Europe in general than in the US, even when compared to cities like Portland that are relatively well served by transit.

 

the main issue is that energy is much more expensive- with gas at $8 a gallon, people think a lot more carefully about whether they really need to take the car.

 

ETA: when I rode public transit in the US, children under six were free, too.

Edited April 17, 2011 by regentrude

[regentrude]

With 2 kids, I could hold on to each one's hand. With 3, I have to trust my 8 y.o. to look after herself. Usually she can, but if she's tired or overstimulated, her judgment isn't always the best.

 

 

The difference is being used to it or not. In my home country, an 8 y/o would use public transit by herself and would walk herself to and from school, to the library, to stores. So, she would be accustomed to being out on her own, be familiar with traffic safety since preschool and know how to negotiate the transit system. That would make a huge difference.

[nmoira]

 

the main issue is that energy is much more expensive- with gas at $8 a gallon, people think a lot more carefully about whether they really need to take the car.

:iagree: That's definitely a major part of the cost equation.

[Murphy101]

What cities have free downtown parking? :confused: I've never lived in/near one that had reasonably-priced parking.

 

I've never heard of that either. It costs me $5 just to park when I go to the theatre downtown on a Saturday afternoon here.

[regentrude]

Do buses in Europe have extra areas for strollers? Or are the buses designed for mostly standing passengers so the interior is floor space instead of seats?

 

Yes. On a typical city bus, there would be two areas, each of which large enough for 2 or 3 strollers, or people in a wheelchair, or a couple of bicycles.

If all the stroller areas are taken, you know that the next bus comes in ten minutes and you wait.

[Murphy101]

The difference is being used to it or not. In my home country, an 8 y/o would use public transit by herself and would walk herself to and from school, to the library, to stores. So, she would be accustomed to being out on her own, be familiar with traffic safety since preschool and know how to negotiate the transit system. That would make a huge difference.

 

If we had a better system, my kids would be like that too.

[regentrude]

If we had a better system, my kids would be like that too.

 

yes, I guess a LOT would change with a better system. It really is a vicious cycle: if public transit is infrequent and inconvenient, few people use it, so the company and city see less reason to improve the schedule, which in turn has few people use it, etc. It is a hen-egg problem.

 

I understand about the US being a large country, with many cities spread out, so it probably will only be feasible in larger cities. OTOH, there it would be great - if it was made convenient enough so that people used it, or if driving in the city was made inconvenient enough so that people stopped (which is what happens in a lot of European cities, to alleviate congestion. London is actually charging a fee to drive in the city. And many cities charge large fees for parking.)

 

Some cities subsidize public transit because it reduces pollution, congestion, need for parking space, gets people walking on the streets- which is good for local business and encourages people to patronize smaller stores instead of driving to the suburbs for all their shopping.

[Crimson Wife]

I've never heard of that either. It costs me $5 just to park when I go to the theatre downtown on a Saturday afternoon here.

 

$5 would be "reasonably-priced" to me considering that parking in downtown S.F. costs something like $3 for every 20 minutes up to a maximum of $25-$35 (depending on the garage). Boston was similar when we lived there.

[Crimson Wife]

regentrude- how many families in Germany have more than 2 kids? Isn't the German average fertility rate among the lowest in all of Western Europe?

[pfamilygal]

Is it easier to walk places in larger cities? Arlington is about 330K, but is all spread out like a suburb. No consistent sidewalks - even to go to the park or grocery store we'd have to cross a 6 lane road with no crosswalk or sidewalk. And it would be a couple mile walk. I would have to be pretty daring to attempt that with lots of littles.

 

We do drive somewhere in the van almost every day. But to get anywhere you really have to. There aren't legitimate options.

 

But if there were easily accessible and convenient public transport I would be willing to use it for some trips.

[Rosie_0801]

I live in Arlington, TX - the largest city in the US with absolutely no public transit.

 

:svengo: How can a city that size not have public transport? :svengo:

 

Do large families really use it? And how? I can't imagine taking 6 kids on a bus or train to the grocery store. How would you get your stuff home?

 

I can't comment on what large families do in the US, but here, no they wouldn't use pt except, perhaps, parents getting to work or kids getting to school. When you have a certain amount of people traveling, say for a family outing, it's cheaper to drive.

 

Aside from cost, it is no big deal to travel with kids if you take snacks to bribe the smaller ones who aren't yet able to sit nicely for the required time. (Like my 2 year old.) Most people are pretty forgiving as long as you are trying to keep them fairly quiet and won't let them put their sticky fingers on anyone. If the tots and preschoolers stand up and look over the back of the seats, most people will have a chat, or at least smile. Of course, if you had a large collection of small people, it would be more pleasant for everyone to avoid travelling in peak times.

 

Rosie

[Cheryl in NM]

What cities have free downtown parking? :confused: I've never lived in/near one that had reasonably-priced parking.

 

Washington DC on the weekend, street parking is free and garage parking is only $5/day.

[regentrude]

regentrude- how many families in Germany have more than 2 kids? Isn't the German average fertility rate among the lowest in all of Western Europe?

 

Yes, the averages are low. I don't know numbers.

OTOH, there ARE families with more children (my best friend has five, several others in our circle have three or four.) But on the topic of public transit: driving and owning a car is very expensive in Germany, so families with many children would actually be more likely to use public transit. It is hard to afford a vehicle that seats more than 5.)

 

Very large families are rare. One reason is that most people live in apartments and it is not as common for a family to own a whole house as it is in the US. So, having a big family means you probably have to live in really cramped conditions.

One other reason for the absence of very large families is that the typical variants of religion in Germany do not put a large emphasis on being fruitful and multiplying. So, families who object to birth control for religious reasons are not common. I grew up in the Lutheran Church, and I have never come across this aspect.

[Wayfaring Stranger]

 

People ride buses here, even people in suits (at least during rush hour). :001_smile:

 

 

 

Portland is a great example for what can be done. There is a culture there that allows people in suits to ride buses but most of the country is not there yet.

 

I am still working through a lot of this stuff in my head but I think we have to start designing cities for people again and not just for cars. We have to start to plan cities the way they were planned for thousands of years not just how they were planned in the last 80 years.

 

Many smaller cities (under 100,000 people) do not charge for parking at all.

[DawnM]

Dh takes the only train in our city to work. However, he has to drive 13 miles to get to the train station.

 

There is a bus system of sorts but we live out so the nearest bus station is over 5 miles away.

[LibraryLover]

:iagree:

Washington DC on the weekend, street parking is free and garage parking is only $5/day.

[Barb_]

I see no reason why a larger family should not be able to use public transit. Why would that be a problem? Unless you have sextuplets which are all babies at the same time, there will be some kids who can walk and maybe some who are in a stroller which you wheel into the bus/tram.

 

**snerk**

 

Obviously this is not something you have ever attempted to do. Dh lived and worked in San Francisco for about 4 months last fall. We visited for 3 weeks. I didn't want to deal with parallel parking my van so the 7 of us (without dh who was working) went everywhere on the bus or on foot. This is how it went:

 

Leash up the 5yo, put the 2yo in the stroller.

Each big kid takes a younger kid by the hand.

We troop down the road with me in front, oldest in back single file for 2-4 blocks.

I yell, "Hold up for crossing!" like a drill sergeant before all crossroads. Then, "okay, let's go, let's go!" to get them across before the light change.

I work out which bus stop on which side of the road we need (no easy feat).

We break down the stroller and I put 2yo in the sling.

Oldest grabs the 5yo, I carry the 2yo and 14yo grabs the stroller.

I enter the front of the bus, pay for all of us, ask for transfers, and find seating in the old people section.

Kids enter back of the bus and attempt to stay together but usually they are separated. Good luck means a kindly mom type or Korean grandma hangs on to the smallest ones and feeds them crackers or fruit snacks. Bad luck means they attempt to stand or a creepy guy strikes up conversation.

I call the older children by cell phone when our stop is coming up. No way to communicate in the crowded bus. If I can't get through I just yell, "Lastname stop, up next!"

Kids know to grab one another and exit quickly or be left behind on the bus.

Unfold stroller, insert irritated and whining toddler, and continue walking to destination.

By the time we get there, everyone is tired and ready to go home.

 

No, it would definitely been easier with two.

Edited April 18, 2011 by Barb F. PA in AZ

[Farmgirl70]

While I agree that it would be no picnic taking a large family on public transit while in San Francisco for three weeks (we live there), I would say that kids who are used to taking public transit know the drill and that does make things LOTS easier.

 

I try to limit taking the car--do many things in one trip and plan shopping well. Our neighborhood is very walkable, so we can do lots on foot. The kids are teens now and for many of their activities either walk, bike or take public transit. It is not unusual at all for kids to wait to get drivers' licenses here until they are 18 or so. We told ours that they needed to be fully competent on taking public transit by themselves before they could begin to get their license. I use the car for groceries, going out of town or getting all of us across town. At this point, that's about three times a week. I'm trying to be even more careful about it, though.

 

Taking public transit is like many new things...it takes a while to learn the system, but once you do it is easier than you thought (maybe not as convenient as a car). Lots of families I know take transit all the time and are very used to factoring the time it takes. We're always experimenting with the blend.