Need discipline idea/help/encouragement...whatever

[CAMom]

I promise not to be overly sensitive. You can all give it to me straight!;)

 

My 5 yo is naughty. He talks back, is stubborn, refuses to obey, etc. He's always been strong willed and that will tends to lead him towards the naughty side. He's just a completely different animal than my older two kids.

 

We have not found any methods of "discipline" (and I'm not using that word punitively...I'm using it more in the sense of discipling) that works with him. We did use spanking judiciously with our older two. In other words, they got an occasional spanking for a major infraction...usually lying or blatant disrespect. That was years ago.

 

Spanking does not work for this guy. I'm convinced it just makes things worse. Instead of encouraging compliance, I think it just makes him more stubborn.

 

I'm not attached to spanking at all. I'm also not completely opposed to it as evidenced by the fact that we used it sparingly as an effective tool with our older kids. But, I think it's ridiculous to continue to use it when it is obviously not working.;)

 

So, I'm looking for alternative, creative ways to encourage (and demand) better behavior for this 5 year old. Like I said, he is very strong willed. I just haven't figured out how to crack the case of the stubborn little guy.

 

He fun. He's funny. He's loving. He's affectionate. He's smart. He's just naughty, too. I'm old and it's exhausting me!:lol:

 

I'm all :bigear: and totally open minded!:)

[CAMom]

Please? I'm desperate...:lol:

[fairfarmhand]

read up in some of Kevin Leman's books. He has lots of practical suggestions for "pulling the rug out from under" a kid.

[Home'scool]

Sounds like my youngest daughter (who is now 14 and still shows some traits like that. It is just part of their personality.)

 

When she was young though, boy oh boy could she pitch a fit. And stubborn as the day was long. She would take me on in a heartbeat.

 

The thing that finally had us turning a corner with all of that was this: one time, after a particularly defiant stand against me was finally squashed (she was about 4 at the time) I said to her "You need to understand something. I will go toe to toe with you anytime, anywhere, and for as long as you want. I WILL outlast you. And I will win every single time."

 

I could actually see this concept dawn on her. The defiance did not go away overnight to be sure, but she was better. And we worked from there.

 

I am sure a lot of child experts would tell me that was a terrible thing to say. Something about her self esteem and independence blah blah blah. All I knew was that she was turning into a unpleasant child to be around. How was that going to help her self esteem?

 

Just be consistent. And make it count. When they see that they will not win no matter how tired or how public of a place or how long they go, they will alter their behavior

[fairfarmhand]

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/parenting/effective_biblical_discipline/4_secrets_to_successfully_handling_behavior_problems.aspx

 

http://www.focusonthefamily.com/parenting/effective_biblical_discipline/why_kids_misbehave/the_wonders_of_reality_discipline.aspx

 

Here are two articles that might give you some ideas....

[fairytalemama]

I'm in the same boat with my dd who is nearly 6. :grouphug:

 

I found the Love and Logic book to be helpful. Unfortunately, we end up doing a lot of time outs. What really is most effective for improving behavior is spending more time doing fun activities with her. If I read her a book or color with her or do an art project and at the same time keep my demeanor even (I find that yelling is the kiss of death discipline wise---it has absolutely no effect), then her behavior stays good.

 

The last two days have been awful here. Then this morning I was ill. We just hung out and read books. I gave them a bath. It was the best behavior I've had from them all week. Now I need to go take a nap...;)

[Parrothead]

You have to find what motivates him. If he doesn't mind being in his room, sending him there, away from the family, won't work much. If he doesn't mind a pop or two on the butt, spanking won't work. Does he have a passion about anything? Something you can take away? Or alternatively something he can do if he follows the rules?

 

Don't argue with him. That puts him in charge. What happens when you model expected behavior? Do you have the patience to wait him out?

 

What do you do now if he doesn't obey?

 

What do yo do now if he argues with you?

[celticmom]

I have a dd6 that tends to be very stubborn. In her case longer term consequences than are generally reccomended at that age seem to work better. I started putting her on restriction for a week at a time for serious infractions. Restriction for her means no television, no computer, and no sweets. These are all high value things for her that taking them away from her does her no harm whatsoever. In my dd's case her reactions and ability to think ahead and long term (short term consequences did not phase her because she knew they would be over relatively quickly) were mature for her age so I went with consequences appropriate for her maturity level in that respect.

[*Lulu*]

Sounds like my youngest daughter (who is now 14 and still shows some traits like that. It is just part of their personality.)

 

When she was young though' date=' boy oh boy could she pitch a fit. And stubborn as the day was long. She would take me on in a heartbeat.

 

The thing that finally had us turning a corner with all of that was this: one time, after a particularly defiant stand against me was finally squashed (she was about 4 at the time) I said to her "You need to understand something. [b']I will go toe to toe with you anytime, anywhere[/b], and for as long as you want. I WILL outlast you. And I will win every single time."

 

I could actually see this concept dawn on her. The defiance did not go away overnight to be sure, but she was better. And we worked from there.

 

I am sure a lot of child experts would tell me that was a terrible thing to say. Something about her self esteem and independence blah blah blah. All I knew was that she was turning into a unpleasant child to be around. How was that going to help her self esteem?

 

Just be consistent. And make it count. When they see that they will not win no matter how tired or how public of a place or how long they go, they will alter their behavior

 

 

The bold is almost word for word what I said to DS#1 when he was about 4 or 5. :lol:

 

He is almost 9, and is still *complicated*, but does not feel the need to take it to the wall as frequently. Part of it is he is older and more clearly understands the whys of some of the rules, part of it is because he has a little more autonomy now, (this is important to him), and part of it is because he knows that some lines, once crossed, will result in a battle he CANNOT win.

 

According to DH, DS didn't get his stubborn nature from a cracker-jack box. :glare: (DH thinks he's a funny man.) Once I learned to tap into my own reservoir of resolve I found it much easier to hold my ground with DS.

[Joanne]

What actual situations do you need help with?

[sarawatsonim]

I have a dd6 that tends to be very stubborn. In her case longer term consequences than are generally reccomended at that age seem to work better. I started putting her on restriction for a week at a time for serious infractions. Restriction for her means no television, no computer, and no sweets. These are all high value things for her that taking them away from her does her no harm whatsoever. In my dd's case her reactions and ability to think ahead and long term (short term consequences did not phase her because she knew they would be over relatively quickly) were mature for her age so I went with consequences appropriate for her maturity level in that respect.

 

My dd6 is VERY stubborn as well. I have tried this technique to see if it would work because she loves her tv and computer time. When I tell her she has lost ________ privilege for x amount of days she walks to the calendar and says "so, uh...that means I'll be allowed on the computer next Wednesday?" Then she will mark it on the calendar.:glare: Also I have tried the donating toys to charity. After I have asked multiple times for them to be put away I will say that any left out will be packed and donated to charity no exceptions. Last time she went and got the bag and helped me fill it.:001_huh: Seriously, how do you deal with a child like this?

[speedmom4]

I really found the book Shepherding a Child's Heart to be very helpful in dealing with my stubborn child. I also have used spanking before but found it wasn't effective in the long run with heart issues for her.

 

God Bless,

Elise in NC

[DianeW88]

Find out what his "currency" is, so to speak. If he hates being away from the family, then time alone with nothing around to entertain him is what happens when he's disobedient. Is it a favorite toy? Legos? Computer? Video games? Then they go. Is it a fun activity? Outside time? Riding a bike? Is it playing with friends? Special treats? You get the idea.

 

I've also found it worked to be sure and reward GOOD behavior and obedience. One of my favorite books when my kids were younger was this one:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Playful-Parenting-Denise-Champman-Weston/dp/0874777348/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1301519289&sr=8-2

 

There is another by the same title, but I don't have experience with that one. At any rate, my two oldest kiddos are 20 and 18 and are now well adjusted, happy and productive. Hang in there.

[CAMom]

What actual situations do you need help with?

 

Well, they are too numerous to name but I'll give a few recent examples:

 

He was running around the house this morning bumping into me on purpose. I asked him to stop running into me and respect my personal space and he just says, "no" and continues on.

 

He was shooting his sister (14) yesterday with his nerf gun. She asked him to stop and he just kept doing it. I told him that I was going to take the gun away and he said, "Well, I'll just find it and get it back." Yes, I took it away and put it where he couldn't reach it.

 

I tell him to put away his legos and he says, "no." I tell him that I will take them away for a certain amount of time (usually 2 or 3 days) and he says he will find them and take them back out.

 

I take him out in public and he decides he's bored and starts acting out. He lays down on the ground. I tell him to get up and he won't. I try to pick him up and he makes himself limp and heavy to where I can hardly move him. (He's about 51 lbs.)

 

Virtually every time I ask him to do something he says "no." If I repeat myself, he will scream like a girl.

 

If I put him in a time out, he just gets up.

 

He has to have the last word on everything! He argues with virtually everything I say!

 

I'm exhausted and just plain out of brain power to think of anything to do. I haven't found his "currency.":confused:

[KJsMom]

This will probably be hugely unpopular, but it's what I did with my disrespectful dd. I took everything out of her room. Toys, bed frame, everything. I took pictures and her bulletin board off the walls and left her with only her dresser and mattress on the floor. She had books, because I couldn't bring myself to take those. ;) She came out of her room for school, meals, and bathroom breaks. I told her that she was not entitled to her things and that if she didn't deserve them she couldn't have them. I told her I was only legally obligated to provide food, clothing, and shelter and she had that if nothing else. I'm not going to lie, it was tough. And it didn't immediately work. She thought it was cool to be able to jump on the mattress and she had a lot more room to play. After a few days it began to sink in. It helped us, but I wouldn't say it's for everyone.

[fairfarmhand]

Well, they are too numerous to name but I'll give a few recent examples:

 

He was running around the house this morning bumping into me on purpose. I asked him to stop running into me and respect my personal space and he just says, "no" and continues on.

 

He was shooting his sister (14) yesterday with his nerf gun. She asked him to stop and he just kept doing it. I told him that I was going to take the gun away and he said, "Well, I'll just find it and get it back." Yes, I took it away and put it where he couldn't reach it.

 

I tell him to put away his legos and he says, "no." I tell him that I will take them away for a certain amount of time (usually 2 or 3 days) and he says he will find them and take them back out.

 

I take him out in public and he decides he's bored and starts acting out. He lays down on the ground. I tell him to get up and he won't. I try to pick him up and he makes himself limp and heavy to where I can hardly move him. (He's about 51 lbs.)

 

Virtually every time I ask him to do something he says "no." If I repeat myself, he will scream like a girl.

 

If I put him in a time out, he just gets up.

 

He has to have the last word on everything! He argues with virtually everything I say!

 

I'm exhausted and just plain out of brain power to think of anything to do. I haven't found his "currency.":confused:

 

After the mouthiness about taking possessions away, I'd be donating them to Goodwill. One at a time.

 

Remember, it takes 2 to argue.

 

Read Kevin Lemans "how to make your children mind, without losing yours."

[Carol in Cal.]

He was running around the house this morning bumping into me on purpose. I asked him to stop running into me and respect my personal space and he just says, "no" and continues on.

 

He was shooting his sister (14) yesterday with his nerf gun. She asked him to stop and he just kept doing it. I told him that I was going to take the gun away and he said, "Well, I'll just find it and get it back." Yes, I took it away and put it where he couldn't reach it.

For these, I would not ask him to stop. I would tell him, "People are special. We don't hurt people. We HUG people instead." I would then follow through and hug him. (I'd also make sure that I hugged him a lot, randomly, and told him how much I love him. It has to be kind of normal to be the alternative to suggest.) If he did the first thing again right away, I would say, "If you do this, you can't be in the room with me until you can stop yourself." And I would put him into a time out and tell him that he can come back when he can stop himself from bumping me. For the second case, I would not have told him I would take it. I would have just taken it. I would have said the same thing, and then I would have said, "I'm going to keep this for a while to help you to remember that we don't hurt people with it."

 

I tell him to put away his legos and he says, "no." I tell him that I will take them away for a certain amount of time (usually 2 or 3 days) and he says he will find them and take them back out.

 

Again, don't threaten. Take them and put them away. Tell him that he can have them back the next morning after breakfast. Stick to it. If he finds them and takes them out again, tell him that he can have them a day later.

 

I take him out in public and he decides he's bored and starts acting out. He lays down on the ground. I tell him to get up and he won't. I try to pick him up and he makes himself limp and heavy to where I can hardly move him. (He's about 51 lbs.)

 

I would be inclined to ignore this. I would leave him on the ground and not ask him to get up. When it was time to go, I would say, "We are leaving now." I'd give his hand a tug, and smile, and go. Most kids will follow eventually. (I wouldn't do this around traffic, but I would in a store or at someone's house.) Later when he is older I would talk with him in advance about how I want him to behave, framing it positively, and I would also make sure starting now that when we go out in public he is well-fed and not tired.

 

Virtually every time I ask him to do something he says "no." If I repeat myself, he will scream like a girl.

 

I would try to frame requests as choices between two options I can live with. Example: Do you want to pick the blue or the green shirt? If he yells 'no', then calmly say, "Use your inside voice. Blue or green?" If he still doesn't pick, say, "OK, I pick today. You will wear the green one." Again, calm, cheerful tone and follow through. At that point if he says, No, I want the blue one, you can either agree or say, "Tomorrow you may pick." and just keep on going.

 

If I put him in a time out, he just gets up.

 

I'd be pretty judicious on this one. I would figure out a way to win that didn't involve me sitting there the whole time, or I would sit there the whole time. But I WOULD NOT LOSE this one. Once I say there is a time out, or a banishment to a specific room, it would happen. A timer would be involved, and coming away without hearing the timer would cause a restart.

 

He has to have the last word on everything! He argues with virtually everything I say!

 

This is sort of paradoxical, but it would be a really really good idea to talk with him about the things he does right, in a complimentary tone, pretty often. Sometimes you have to hunt hard to find one :001_smile:. It sounds like he argues somewhat out of habit, and he will feel pretty silly if you tell him he did something really well and he then argues. He will like it if you give him positive feedback, although he might not show it right away. Try not to mix positive and negative feedback into the same paragraph for a while. It's easy to get into the mom-habit (been there, done that) of only being positive as a prelude to being negative. That makes them brace themselves after a while.

Bottom line: Stay calm. Pick your battles. And win each and every one.

It's difficult, but it will pay off.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Carol in Cal.

[bookfiend]

John Rosemond (http://www.rosemond.com/) - get your authority back. He was a speaker at the SouthEast Conference, and I read his column in our local paper.

 

Then you can move to Clay Clarkson (http://www.wholeheart.org/) - Heartfelt Discipline, relationship/discipleship based parenting.

[Joanne]

Well, they are too numerous to name but I'll give a few recent examples:

 

He was running around the house this morning bumping into me on purpose. I asked him to stop running into me and respect my personal space and he just says, "no" and continues on.

 

I do not allow anyone to be obnoxious and rude when it comes to my body boundaries.

 

Do you allow running in the house?

 

In this case, I would:

 

1) He can stay in his room until he's ready to be body respectful.

2) Leave so that he knows I will not be a toy for him.

3) Make sure he has play options providing *appropriate* ways for him to have similar sensations.

4) Take away the next "fun" thing on his list for the day.

 

 

He was shooting his sister (14) yesterday with his nerf gun. She asked him to stop and he just kept doing it. I told him that I was going to take the gun away and he said, "Well, I'll just find it and get it back." Yes, I took it away and put it where he couldn't reach it.

 

Too much talking. Here is how it would go in my home:

 

Son shoots sister.

Sister stays stop.

Son shoots again.

Mom takes away play weapons for a long time until he's developed appropriate impulse control and maturity.

 

 

 

I tell him to put away his legos and he says, "no." I tell him that I will take them away for a certain amount of time (usually 2 or 3 days) and he says he will find them and take them back out.

 

 

Mom: It's time to put away legos.

Son: No.

Mom (no words, no battle): Picks up legos and they disappear.

 

 

 

I take him out in public and he decides he's bored and starts acting out. He lays down on the ground. I tell him to get up and he won't. I try to pick him up and he makes himself limp and heavy to where I can hardly move him. (He's about 51 lbs.)

 

The *moment* he acts out, we leave. In fact, I'd plan some outings with just him (so siblings don't suffer). However, if that is not possible, I'd still leave the *moment* he acts out and I would not block the sibling fall out/consequences (I'd make sure that the siblings were respectful but they could have their say).

 

 

 

 

Virtually every time I ask him to do something he says "no." If I repeat myself, he will scream like a girl.

 

Stop repeating. Say it once. If he doesn't comply, act.

 

 

If I put him in a time out, he just gets up.

 

I'm not a fan of tiime out unless it is related to the issue at hand. I would not use time out for a child like this because it becomes yet another struggle.

 

 

He has to have the last word on everything! He argues with virtually everything I say!

 

 

Don't engage. Really. Don't offer reasons, explanations, a please (makes it optional) or any fodder for argument.

 

I'm exhausted and just plain out of brain power to think of anything to do. I haven't found his "currency.":confused:

 

I'm not a fan of the "currency" idea. (Dr. Phil popularized this one). However, it's probably better than under parenting.

[kathkath]

I'm right there with you with my 4yo.

 

Check this out

http://www.amazon.com/Transforming-Difficult-Child-Nurtured-Approach/dp/0967050707/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1301525138&sr=8-1

[Kirch]

Joanne's advice is great, as usual. I just wanted to echo the, "don't engage" thing. I have a similar ds who has to have the last word, and I've learned to pretty much just follow through and ignore. It still goes against the grain--I still have that overwhelming influence to "prove who's the boss" when he responds like that, but I finally realized that by just following through and putting up the toy and ignoring the "I'll get it back out" retorts, I *am* showing him who's in charge. He's just expressing his dislike of that fact!

 

With my guy, acting quickly without lots of warnings and threats helps a lot, as does dealing with him in as matter-of-fact a manner as possible--NO EMOTION. Being very clear on choices leading to consequences ("Choosing to keep bumping into me means that you'll be choosing the consequence of going to your room") has helped.

 

Something else that I stumbled upon that's made a big difference is giving him space to make the right choice. I realized that if it was a tug-of-war of wills, he'd keep tugging as long as I did. But if I laid it out for him, told him what the consequences would be if he didn't obey, gave him a time frame to make his choice and then walked off, *most* of the time he'd end up making the right choice. It wasn't so much that he didn't want to do the right thing, he just didn't want to let me MAKE him do it, kwim?

[unsinkable]

Well, they are too numerous to name but I'll give a few recent examples:

 

He was running around the house this morning bumping into me on purpose. I asked him to stop running into me and respect my personal space and he just says, "no" and continues on.

 

He was shooting his sister (14) yesterday with his nerf gun. She asked him to stop and he just kept doing it. I told him that I was going to take the gun away and he said, "Well, I'll just find it and get it back." Yes, I took it away and put it where he couldn't reach it.

 

I tell him to put away his legos and he says, "no." I tell him that I will take them away for a certain amount of time (usually 2 or 3 days) and he says he will find them and take them back out.

 

I take him out in public and he decides he's bored and starts acting out. He lays down on the ground. I tell him to get up and he won't. I try to pick him up and he makes himself limp and heavy to where I can hardly move him. (He's about 51 lbs.)

 

Virtually every time I ask him to do something he says "no." If I repeat myself, he will scream like a girl.

 

If I put him in a time out, he just gets up.

 

He has to have the last word on everything! He argues with virtually everything I say!

 

I'm exhausted and just plain out of brain power to think of anything to do. I haven't found his "currency.":confused:

 

This won't help but our 25 lb. dog does this when we want him out of our bed. We call it slugging because it seems like he makes himself as limp and boneless as a slug. We bribe him with a piece of cheese if we don't feel like dealing with the slugging.

[CAMom]

I do not allow anyone to be obnoxious and rude when it comes to my body boundaries.

 

Do you allow running in the house?

 

No, actually, I do not allow running in the house but he defies this rule pretty much every single day.

 

In this case, I would:

 

1) He can stay in his room until he's ready to be body respectful.

2) Leave so that he knows I will not be a toy for him.

3) Make sure he has play options providing *appropriate* ways for him to have similar sensations.

4) Take away the next "fun" thing on his list for the day.

 

 

 

One problem is that he doesn't have his own space. His stuff is in his sister's room and he sleeps in his brother's room. At any rate, if I put him in one of the bedrooms, he just walks right on out. Any suggestions on getting him to stay in there? I'm open!:)

 

Alternative appropriate sensations? That's a good idea. I'm not sure if it's the actual sensation or if he's just trying to bug me :glare: but I can definitely try that!

 

 

 

 

Too much talking. Here is how it would go in my home:

 

Yes, you are likely right! That's something I had not considered. I'll work on being more immediate and no word battles.

 

 

 

The *moment* he acts out, we leave. In fact, I'd plan some outings with just him (so siblings don't suffer). However, if that is not possible, I'd still leave the *moment* he acts out and I would not block the sibling fall out/consequences (I'd make sure that the siblings were respectful but they could have their say).

 

Practice outings are a great idea. I'm not overly concerned about the siblings. They are 14 and 18. They would have complete understanding of what was going on.

 

 

Stop repeating. Say it once. If he doesn't comply, act.

 

Yes, I can definitely be guilty of repeating.

 

 

I'm not a fan of tiime out unless it is related to the issue at hand. I would not use time out for a child like this because it becomes yet another struggle.

 

That's a good point.

 

I'm not a fan of the "currency" idea. (Dr. Phil popularized this one). However, it's probably better than under parenting.

 

So, am I "under parenting?" I can honestly say that no one has ever said that about me.;)

 

Frankly, I used to think I was a brilliant parent.:001_huh: My older two kids were generally compliant. They used to get compliments from random strangers and free desserts from servers when we were out. They weren't perfect but I never had to deal with this all encompassing energy suck.:tongue_smilie: Fortunately, I never expressed my thoughts on my perfect parenting outloud.

 

The little guy did say today, "Will someone please take me outside to burn off some energy! I'm going to keeping bugging you until you do. I have energy to burn!" Insightful I suppose. Big brother took him out for an hour and walked him to the neighborhood park and then I took him out for a two mile bike ride as soon as they got home. Unfortunately he still seems to have energy to burn and I can't spend my entire day outside.;)

 

I'm appreciating all of the insight and taking it all to heart.

[CAMom]

This won't help but our 25 lb. dog does this when we want him out of our bed. We call it slugging because it seems like he makes himself as limp and boneless as a slug. We bribe him with a piece of cheese if we don't feel like dealing with the slugging.

 

Bribe him with cheese! There's a brilliant thought.:D

 

Slugging is the perfect word!

[CAMom]

 

For these, I would not ask him to stop. I would tell him, "People are special. We don't hurt people. We HUG people instead." I would then follow through and hug him. (I'd also make sure that I hugged him a lot, randomly, and told him how much I love him. It has to be kind of normal to be the alternative to suggest.) If he did the first thing again right away, I would say, "If you do this, you can't be in the room with me until you can stop yourself." And I would put him into a time out and tell him that he can come back when he can stop himself from bumping me. For the second case, I would not have told him I would take it. I would have just taken it. I would have said the same thing, and then I would have said, "I'm going to keep this for a while to help you to remember that we don't hurt people with it."

 

Good ideas. I'm 100% sure he would say, "Nerf guns don't hurt!";) I know. That's not the point.:)

 

Again, don't threaten. Take them and put them away. Tell him that he can have them back the next morning after breakfast. Stick to it. If he finds them and takes them out again, tell him that he can have them a day later.

 

Sounds good!

 

 

I would be inclined to ignore this. I would leave him on the ground and not ask him to get up. When it was time to go, I would say, "We are leaving now." I'd give his hand a tug, and smile, and go. Most kids will follow eventually. (I wouldn't do this around traffic, but I would in a store or at someone's house.) Later when he is older I would talk with him in advance about how I want him to behave, framing it positively, and I would also make sure starting now that when we go out in public he is well-fed and not tired.

 

He knows exactly how to behave and I've actually tried this one. He will not come with me.:)

 

 

I would try to frame requests as choices between two options I can live with. Example: Do you want to pick the blue or the green shirt? If he yells 'no', then calmly say, "Use your inside voice. Blue or green?" If he still doesn't pick, say, "OK, I pick today. You will wear the green one." Again, calm, cheerful tone and follow through. At that point if he says, No, I want the blue one, you can either agree or say, "Tomorrow you may pick." and just keep on going.

 

I give him choices all the time. He says, "I don't want you to give me choices. I just want what I want. I will not choose." If I say, "Fine. I will choose for you." the struggle begins.

 

 

I'd be pretty judicious on this one. I would figure out a way to win that didn't involve me sitting there the whole time, or I would sit there the whole time. But I WOULD NOT LOSE this one. Once I say there is a time out, or a banishment to a specific room, it would happen. A timer would be involved, and coming away without hearing the timer would cause a restart.

 

Yep! I'm with you on this. He is stubborn enough that a 5 minute time out can last an hour or more because of restarts.

 

This is sort of paradoxical, but it would be a really really good idea to talk with him about the things he does right, in a complimentary tone, pretty often. Sometimes you have to hunt hard to find one . It sounds like he argues somewhat out of habit, and he will feel pretty silly if you tell him he did something really well and he then argues. He will like it if you give him positive feedback, although he might not show it right away. Try not to mix positive and negative feedback into the same paragraph for a while. It's easy to get into the mom-habit (been there, done that) of only being positive as a prelude to being negative. That makes them brace themselves after a while.

 

Great idea! I will work on that. It does get hard on days when he's fighting me on everything but I will definitely make the effort!

 

Bottom line: Stay calm. Pick your battles. And win each and every one.

It's difficult, but it will pay off.

 

I know you're right! It's just so tiring!;)

 

Thank you so much!!

[Entropymama]

This will probably be hugely unpopular, but it's what I did with my disrespectful dd. I took everything out of her room. Toys, bed frame, everything. I took pictures and her bulletin board off the walls and left her with only her dresser and mattress on the floor. She had books, because I couldn't bring myself to take those. ;) She came out of her room for school, meals, and bathroom breaks. I told her that she was not entitled to her things and that if she didn't deserve them she couldn't have them. I told her I was only legally obligated to provide food, clothing, and shelter and she had that if nothing else. I'm not going to lie, it was tough. And it didn't immediately work. She thought it was cool to be able to jump on the mattress and she had a lot more room to play. After a few days it began to sink in. It helped us, but I wouldn't say it's for everyone.

 

John Rosemond (http://www.rosemond.com/) - get your authority back. He was a

speaker at the SouthEast Conference, and I read his column in our local paper.

 

Then you can move to Clay Clarkson (http://www.wholeheart.org/) - Heartfelt Discipline, relationship/discipleship based parenting.

 

The first quote sounds like a John Rosemond idea, then somebody beat me to it. He wrote a books called The Well Behaved Child which is a bit harsh in tone but has great ideas. One practical suggestion is to deal with one issue at a time. Decide which one or two behaviors are particularly bad and ignore the rest for the time being to help keep from being overwhelmed.

 

If you want to tackle back talk, for example, I'd sit him down and tell him he's not going to speak disrespectfully to mommy any more, and if he does there will be 'X' punishment. But also have a reward system in place. I have two jars, one with marbles in it. I'd tell him that for each hour that passes without his saying anything disrespectful, he can put a marble in the 'good' jar. When the jar is full there is a reward. Or someone like that.

[Remudamom]

Are you Christian? Address his heart. (sorry if this is a repeat, haven't read all responses.)

[CAMom]

Are you Christian? Address his heart. (sorry if this is a repeat, haven't read all responses.)

 

Oh yes...definitely a Christian. I've been trying to address his heart. He doesn't respond to whatever I'm doing. Any ideas on what that would look like practically for an insanely stubborn kid?;)

 

My grandma used to say that I should have gotten a clue that I was in for it when he got kicked out of the newborn nursery in the hospital.:001_huh: That's right. I sent him to the nursery when my dh went home so that I could get some sleep between feedings. The nurse brought him back about 10 minutes later saying that I had to keep him because he was disturbing all of the other babies in the nursery. Apparently they could find his currency either.:lol:

[Rosie_0801]

This technique may not be your style, but Mum used to threated to bite my brother's butt if he didn't behave. One day he got too sassy so she did. Everyone behaved for a long time after that.

 

:lol:

Rosie

[Kirch]

No, actually, I do not allow running in the house but he defies this rule pretty much every single day.

 

 

 

One problem is that he doesn't have his own space. His stuff is in his sister's room and he sleeps in his brother's room. At any rate, if I put him in one of the bedrooms, he just walks right on out. Any suggestions on getting him to stay in there? I'm open!:)

 

 

This may not be a super popular answer, but I had to stand there and hold the door to keep him in the room. I finally had to bite the bullet and accept the fact that dealing with him was going to take an investment of time and hands-on, active parenting, even if other things fell by the wayside for a while. So I kept a book near his room, held the door and read until he gave up and stayed in on his own. After a few times of that, he started to realize that I meant what I said and that I wasn't going to back down. Like one PP said, you have to convince him that if you end up having to go toe-to-toe, you ARE going to outlast him. The only way to convince him of that is to do it a few times.

 

In other instances with my ds, EVERYTHING stopped for him until he chose to obey. No playing, no TV/computer, no soccer practice, and we made it clear that life went on around him--I even let him know that if he ever persevered over a meal time that he'd get a plain peanut butter sandwich in his room instead of whatever we were having. It's a pain, it's exhausting, and it's frustrating, but you've got to lay that groundwork. We still have issues from time to time, but perseverance has definitely paid off at our house. Ds isn't perfect, but he's light-years better than he was a year ago.

[unsinkable]

Bribe him with cheese! There's a brilliant thought.:D

 

Slugging is the perfect word!

 

:grouphug: You're a sweetheart, Ronette!

 

I hope some of the real advice you received helps you!

[speedmom4]

I have read the other posts and haven't seen this mentioned.

 

Could it be that he is a very bright boy and very bored and needing attention? I have a child that needs to be mentally or physically stimulated or she gets into mischief and acts out. I usually find that if I spend some one on one time with my children that fixes a lot of discipline problems.

 

HTH,

Elise in NC

[ReneTL]

Redirecting Children's Behavior has lots of good advice.

 

Good Luck.

 

Peace,

Rene

[Greenmama2]

I have read the other posts and haven't seen this mentioned.

 

Could it be that he is a very bright boy and very bored and needing attention? I have a child that needs to be mentally or physically stimulated or she gets into mischief and acts out. I usually find that if I spend some one on one time with my children that fixes a lot of discipline problems.

 

HTH,

Elise in NC

:iagree: My almost five year old is a nightmare unless I feed her brain.

[tiffanieh]

I just wanted to give you a big cyber :grouphug: first.

 

Secondly, I totally 100% agree that you are "talking" too much to him. He KNOWS the rules so there is no reason to tell him the consequences. If you ask him to do something and he gives you even one iota of backtalk, don't tell him what you are going to do if he doesn't comply, JUST DO IT! If it makes you feel better, sit him down with a very brief, but concise list, of the rules of the home and what the consequences are if he breaks them. Have him sign his name at the bottom that he understands.

 

I tell my children all the time that they are in control of their rewards and punishments, completely UP TO THEM. If they do as they are told, their life will be full of blessings, but on the flip side, if they chose selfish behaviors then there are consequences to those choices. It all boils down to choices.

 

These are absolutely heart issues. Sure, you could sit on him all day long and eventually get him to "obey" your commands, but at the end of the day, or when he's older and new issues arise, if you haven't captured his heart, then it's all for not. We are to capture their hearts in obedience so that eventually when God calls them they are equipped to respond in obedience to Him.

 

This will require constant prayer first, then all day everyday conversations. I would challenge you to scripture memorization with him, and then talking thru those scriptures and what they mean, how they apply to his life.

 

Obedience brings blessing in a child's life, not just for the parents. And that doesn't mean toys, or financial rewards for the child. My children understand that PEACE in the home is as big a blessing as the newest toy would be. That doesn't mean they are perfect, FAR from it, but the conversation of peace as a blessing is discussed, and is mutually agreed upon, that it is a HUGE blessing when we find ourselves living in a peaceful home.

 

Lay down the law for him, do less talking and more immediate acting. Write scripture throughout your home, talk about it daily, allow the holy spirit to work on your child at the same time, AND DO NOT GIVE UP!

 

Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Galations 6:9

 

[CAMom]

I have read the other posts and haven't seen this mentioned.

 

Could it be that he is a very bright boy and very bored and needing attention? I have a child that needs to be mentally or physically stimulated or she gets into mischief and acts out. I usually find that if I spend some one on one time with my children that fixes a lot of discipline problems.

 

HTH,

Elise in NC

 

Yes, I do think this is definitely an issue. I try to make sure he has enough mental stimulation every day but I'll step back and evaluate how well I've been doing that as of late.

 

Things have been wild around here lately with college planning for my 18yo and speech and debate season for the older two. It's very possible that I've been neglecting that part.

 

I just wanted to give you a big cyber :grouphug: first.

 

Secondly, I totally 100% agree that you are "talking" too much to him.

 

This will require constant prayer first, then all day everyday conversations. I would challenge you to scripture memorization with him, and then talking thru those scriptures and what they mean, how they apply to his life.

 

Lay down the law for him, do less talking and more immediate acting. Write scripture throughout your home, talk about it daily, allow the holy spirit to work on your child at the same time, AND DO NOT GIVE UP![/b]

 

The too much talking seems to be a common theme.:D I think maybe I've gotten so used to talking and rationalizing with the older two-which is entirely appropriate based on their age-that I forget I'm dealing with a 5 year old.;)

 

He and I do memorize Scripture together. He's a stinker, though. He'll flat out tell me that he's not prepared to live by a certain passage on a certain day.;) Obviously, I'll keep at it but...he's a piece of work.:lol:

 

Like I said, he's smart. He's funny. He's fun. He's loving. He's affectionate.

 

Uh oh...here he comes. He's up for the day. ;)

[mytwomonkeys]

i like the book, "123 Magic". the name is dumb, but the book works well with my son (he sounds a lot like your child). i also like "how to talk so kids will listen & listen so kids will talk". it's by adele faber

[meggie]

I haven't read all the replies because we're headed out the door soon, but wanted to let you know what we did with our 5 year old. This may not work for you, bc my 5 yo is generally pretty well behaved, but he does have his naughty/whiny/arguing moments that were just escalating because I had started arguing with him. Arguing with a child....well it just doesn't work, they're perfectly content to go on and on.

 

What I did was explain to him the difference between obedience and disobedience. I explained that mommy wasn't just making him do everything I wanted just for the fun of it, he had to learn obedience to keep him safe. And I explained that he can choose to be disobedient any time he wants, but he WILL get disciplined for it. In our house discipline is 1) Time out. If that doesn't work to change his attitude we go to 2) Upstairs on his bed. This may not work for everyone, because lots of kids see it as an escape where they don't have to do anything, but my kid absolutely hates it. If that still doesn't work 3)spanking. We rarely get to step 3 anymore.

 

So when he starts getting whiny/arguing, whatever, I just stop him and say, "are you going to choose to be obedient or choose to be disobedient?" Usually before I've even fiinished the sentence he says "obedient". And I say, "then go and do it NOW" (if he doesn't do it now, it's considered disobedience). He's actually never chosen to be disobedient (like I said, usually a pretty mellow kid). But it keeps me from arguing with him and keeps him from thinking that I'm being unfair because he knows the choice lies with him.

 

I had heard someone on this board say that their kids get 3 strikes a day and if they get to 3, they lose a privilege. They also have chances to get a strike erased by being extra good or whatever. So I modified it for us. My son loves to use the computer and he loves to stay up later than his brother. So the rule is if he gets three strikes, he doesn't get to stay up late to use the computer or play a game with me. This was just an obvious motivation for us, you might have a harder time finding something.

 

Oh and I have noticed that his behavior is usually worse when he's needing extra attention/love. So I try to hug him lots first and read to him and sing with him and be silly with him. He definitely wants someone to notice and appreciate his silliness.

 

Sorry it's so long, it's just what's worked with us lately, hopefully something in there can be of use for you. :grouphug:

[Random]

I totally agree with talking less. not arguing, and acting more.

 

One of my sons was like this, and this is what we did at age 5 (or so).

 

If he shoots a person with the nerf gun, it is gone for the rest of the day. There is no discussion, and if he whines or screams, he has to leave my presence until he has himself under control. If he continues to use the gun inappropriately, it is gone. Either in the trash or to another home.

 

If he does not clean up his toys before bed, I gather them up to be thrown away. If he doesn't care the first time, he will certainly care by the last time.

 

I found some free studies at http://christianadhd.com/index.php that we worked through. They are wonderful studies, even if you are not ADHD or ADD. This was also a nice time for just the two of us. Giving him more one-on-one time seemed to help.

 

I made a point to go into his room or to his bed at night and just pray over him. Sometimes he was awake, and sometimes not.

 

Every morning, he starts the day with 4 Popsicle sticks. He can lose one without consequence. If he looses two, he gets a heart instead of a smile on a little chart I printed. If he loses all four, he has to go to bed as soon as Daddy gets home (this is a HUGE deal for him...he idolizes his dad!). If he gets seven smiles in a row (one week of good behavior) he gets a prize. If he ever makes it to a month of smiles on his chart, he will earn a computer game. I already have these prizes in my closet, so he knows I'm going to follow through.

 

When he was 3 (I think) he threw a tantrum in public. I walked over him and left him there. I walked to my car, after telling him calmly and lovingly that I was leaving. He did not care. I started the car and started to back away, and he still stayed put. All that to say, I know what you mean about being strong willed. He could have cared less if I left him there, and he was quite sure he would be just fine on his own at age 3. :lol: He was strong willed from the womb.

 

Best wishes, friend. Just remember, you can only do your best. There is no guarantee that our kids will do what we say. We can just be consistent and make it uncomfortable for them to disobey. The son I described above is still very strong willed (age 9) and we still use the Popsicle sticks and we still have days of tears and frustration. Little by little, it is getting slightly better.

:grouphug:

[Carol in Cal.]

There's another thing I did at that age and younger. I used counting to three, but differently than others do. I would say to do something, and then I would say, do you want me to count to three to help you get ready? Then I would count, and on the count of three there would be some kind of enforcement. So the children knew that this was inevitable, and they had a chance to catch their breaths and get used to the idea that they were going to have to comply, and they could comply before I got to the point of making them, and then it would be partially their own choice. That made them feel more buy in, maybe a little more respected or something.

 

The other thing is I had lists for a few things. I don't know why, but for some reason appealing to a list, even if it is just a series of 5 little pictures of what to do first thing in the morning, is a lot easier than telling them what to do. These lists were hokey and informal, but very effective. And, again, I didn't ever argue about this. 'Chart!' I would say, smiling.

[SweetBean]

To the OP, it certainly sounds like you have an uber spirited child. I have 2 of them. I really thought I would loose my very mind when my oldest DD was preschool age. She seemed to spend her days plotting ways to get my blood to boil. I'm so sorry you are going through this. It's tough! We aren't just talking stubborn, we're talking entrenched warfare. I've got to tell you that you just need to hold to the course. Get a good night sleep every night, lift weights if you have to, but you need to be more rested and stronger than he is. Because sometimes you are just going to have to pick him up and carry him to the car. Clear and consistent discipline. Continue to give him simple choices, and make the choice for him if he won't do it. The most important thing is that you not let him see that he is wearing you down, or getting you riled. Try to remove yourself from the equation and make this about your son learning self discipline.

After the mouthiness about taking possessions away, I'd be donating them to Goodwill. One at a time.

 

Remember, it takes 2 to argue.

 

Read Kevin Leman's "how to make your children mind, without losing yours."

Yes! This book has been a life saver. Spanking did not work with my DD either. Honestly, she was so naughty that I would have been spanking her all day. People looked at me like I was a bad parent. My own mother said, "4 children and 9 grand children (she has 10 now), and none were like that one (my DD)." I felt like a horrible parent. Please read Leman's book. I think it will be a great help to you. It is really about helping your kids learn self discipline by allowing them to experience the logical and natural consequences for their actions. DD is 16 now, and she is a joy to be with. That spirited nature is a real plus when it is turned in the right direction. She is a kind, considerate, and loving daughter. She loves the Lord, and isn't easily swayed. I thank God for her. I pray that you will one day be glad for your son's spiritedness as well.

 

As I said earlier, I have two spirited children. My youngest child is 2.5 yrs. old, and reminds so much of his big sis. DD has even said, "Mom, if I did that, please forgive me." LOL It is so fun to watch her deal with his behavior sometimes. This time around I feel much more confident that it will be all right.

 

P.S.

I also find it very helpful to go back into my child's room, and peek at them, after they have fallen asleep, especially if we have had a very hard day.

[SweetBean]

I have read the other posts and haven't seen this mentioned.

 

Could it be that he is a very bright boy and very bored and needing attention? I have a child that needs to be mentally or physically stimulated or she gets into mischief and acts out. I usually find that if I spend some one on one time with my children that fixes a lot of discipline problems.

 

HTH,

Elise in NC

Yes! Both of my spirited children have been very smart. I taught DD to learn to read at age 3, and it was the best thing I could do for her. She became obsessed with books, instead of me! DS started trying to sound out words before age 2, and we are working on reading now as well. Give him something else to think about.