SOTW/ Evolution? or other "against conservative Christian Viewpoints?"

[SonshineLearner]

Hey there,

 

I have all 4 volumes. I have 3 sets of the cds. Please point me to the part where evolution and other spots where the books are in conflict with the Bible.

 

OR, pls just give me a link to the thread so I can view this.

 

We are doing a co-op here, and there have been some questions. I'd like to figure this out, before we set what we'll use for history.

 

At home, it's too late! We have them memorized :D

[Ravin]

Um...afaik it doesn't. It's more the other direction, treating the Bible as historical record, which is one of the reasons why we don't use it.

[mommymilkies]

Um...afaik it doesn't. It's more the other direction, treating the Bible as historical record, which is one of the reasons why we don't use it.

 

:iagree: We use it, but we talk about this.

[Mrs Mungo]

Someone who believes the earth is 6,000 years old is going to have a problem with almost any history book. The prevailing belief among scientists, historians *and* Christians (including SWB, who is married to a pastor, let us not forget) is that the earth is much older than that.

[SonshineLearner]

Ok, but I don't see that in the book... Is it SOTW I??

[katilac]

Ok, but I don't see that in the book... Is it SOTW I??

 

I don't think so. SOTW 1 starts with ancient history; I do not think pre-history is addressed at all.

 

I don't recall Darwin being covered at all, much less in any depth. Scanning the table of contents of the later volumes, I don't see his name.

 

Shouldn't the people who think SOTW is anti-biblical be able to point out what they're referrring to? ;)

[MamaSheep]

We've only used the first two books (so far), but I don't remember seeing any discussion of evolution in there, and I don't remember any hugely glaring inaccuracies in the bits about the Bible. We love the books. The complaints of that nature that I've heard from other people are:

 

1) The Bible stories are treated in much the same way in the text as the mythological stories and legends; basically it says that the culture being studied has a story about such and such a person doing such and such a thing, and the story comes from the Bible, or the Jataka tales or whatever source it comes from. Some people feel that the Bible stories should be declared in the text to be absolute fact, whereas the other stories need to be specifically labeled myths or else omitted entirely so children don't see the Bible as just another set of cultural myths.

 

2) Some of the Bible stories are edited to be more appropriate for young children rather than presented with all the gory details--for example, it mentions that Potiphar's wife told lies about Joseph and Potiphar believed his wife and threw Joseph in prison, but it doesn't say what those lies were about. Some people would prefer that their children get the full, uncensored versions of these stories.

 

3) Not enough of the Bible stories are included in the text. It only includes a few key Bible figures and stories, like Abraham, Joseph, and Christ. Some people would prefer that it put each of the prophets and events in the Bible in its historical context--when did King David and King Solomon live, exactly; which king threw Daniel in the lion's den; At what point did Jonah tell Nineveh to repent--that sort of thing. They feel it's a secular history that touches on Bible history here and there, but they prefer to have the Bible be the "spine" of the history program, and all other cultures and events presented in their relationship to the events in the Bible.

 

Hope that helps. :)

Edited March 6, 2011 by MamaSheep

[amey311]

I did a little looking.

 

I found this: http://www.listal.com/list/11-sl-readers-6 that says that SOTW "does not stick with the Bible’s revelation of events" from Biblical times.

 

http://heartofwisdom.com/blog/classical-education/ basically says that Classical education is not godly because it involve studying Greek mythology

 

and if you go here: http://raisingolives.com/2011/01/9779/ in the comments "Amy in Luzianna" asks for more information on why to avoid SOTW and the blog author links to several other places where SOTW has been discussed in the "comments" section of other blog posts.

 

You may not be able to convince others to use SOTW if they firmly believe that it's unbiblical.

[Farrar]

I don't think so. SOTW 1 starts with ancient history; I do not think pre-history is addressed at all.

 

 

SOTW 1 addresses pre-history in the most general terms in one chapter. Even if you believe that the earth is only 6,000 years old, this can just be the scant years before civilization started up - and how people lived in the years that early civilizations were beginning for people in other areas. Overall, the book does not use archaeological or anthropological evidence hardly at all, which is part of why the bible, which is part historical document, after all, is given such weight.

 

The book tells about religions other than Christianity, mostly in terms of respect and explanation. However, Jewish and Christian history is explored in much greater depth than other religions and cultures. Part of that means that some of the negative actions of the Christian church over the years are talked about - for example how the crusaders often sacked and destroyed Christian lands on their way to Jerusalem - but it's a book for young children, so it's not done in huge detail for the most part.

 

I'm not a young earth, creationist at all, so maybe it's hard for me to see how SOTW isn't in line with Christian thinking in that way, but I see it as needing more changes for secular families than for Christian ones - though I can understand if some Christian families want to add *more* to it about certain topics.

[Tutor]

The only objections I have heard have centered around the Activity Guide which references the Kingfisher Illustrated History book which does cover evolution in the first portion of the book. The activity guide never directs people to these pages (they are beyond the scope of SOTW), but some people apparently object to it being used as a suggested reference even though it's optional.

[FairProspects]

I know one of the complaints is that the chapter on Abraham mentions that he worshiped multiple gods before his encounter with God.

[Audrey]

Have they even READ the books?? I find a lot of people come here and complain about the SOTW books saying things that they don't. (Not referring to you, as you've obviously read them.)

 

We STILL disagree here on this forum as to the level of Christian slant there is in the series, but that's a matter of interpretation and preference. I, for one, found most of vol. 1 completely useless since, to me, it seemed to be treating bible stories like they were history (rather than the fiction I believe they are) and used bible references so often I had to wonder if it was published by Zondervan! I ended up skipping so many chapters in that thing!

 

Others here complain there isn't enough bible in it, so quite obviously YMMV. However, to say it is anti-Christian is just staggeringly ignorant of the content of the books.

[kalanamak]

I know one of the complaints is that the chapter on Abraham mentions that he worshiped multiple gods before his encounter with God.

 

My concern, coming from the opposite direction, is that all the people in ancient history were written about in one tone, but when we got to old Abe, his feelings and motives were discussed as if he had a true and factual autobiography. He was the first "person" vs. historical character in the book. To me, it was a definite change in tone, and I had read innocently up until that point, pleased with the stories thus far. I felt the author had different feelings about Abraham, and perhaps this is true. As if everything before was in darkness, and he stepped out of the shadows into the light. That's when I switched to Jewish and early Christian history via the Cartoon History of the Universe, which is not as silly as it sounds.:)

[Daisy]

I've never had a problem with what is in SOTW. It is what is missing. And I'll preface it with I find it completely understandable that is it missing because it wasn't intended to be a Christian curriculum.

 

I find it very lacking in biblical and church history. That's my only issue. That history is very important to our family, so we use Mystery of History as our spine and SOTW as a fun extra. Plenty of others just choose to supplement in that area.

 

When the kids were younger, we usually skipped pre-history sections of secular history books and started right at what we considered In the beginning.... As they've gotten older, I've occasionally chosen to read those sections and explain to the kids that people come to different conclusions about timeline and the whole idea that man slowly learned abilities like speech and writing based on their conclusions about evolution and earth age.

[PeterPan]

If SOTW is controversial in your mix of moms, why not chose something else? Not like there aren't plenty of options. VP, TOG, MOH, any of these would make fabulous spines and be less problematic for some people. Truthfully, it's just something some people are going to disagree on. You don't need to be in the position of convincing someone that xyz controversial option ISN'T a problem for them. Just move on to something that does work for everyone. The issues are there, and obviously they're a problem for some of the people in your group.

[SonshineLearner]

Good idea, although... everything causes problems for some, right? I happen to like SOTW and have all the materials :)

VP is too reformed for some. :) I've never used anything but the fronts of the cards.

MOH has cds, but I need the ones without the music :) (I've looked at the curriculum, and it's not as open and go as I'd like)

TOG is a serious buy in, right?

And... I like Diana Waring, but haven't seen her full curricula, we use the cds for listening to "extra history" ;)

So, we haven't all met, just listened to concern. And.... well.... even "classical" is controversial. So, looking for input here ;) and then we'll just have to go full charge ahead and take who wants to come with us :)

[PeterPan]

Good idea, although... everything causes problems for some, right? I happen to like SOTW and have all the materials :)

VP is too reformed for some. :) I've never used anything but the fronts of the cards.

MOH has cds, but I need the ones without the music :) (I've looked at the curriculum, and it's not as open and go as I'd like)

TOG is a serious buy in, right?

And... I like Diana Waring, but haven't seen her full curricula, we use the cds for listening to "extra history" ;)

So, we haven't all met, just listened to concern. And.... well.... even "classical" is controversial. So, looking for input here ;) and then we'll just have to go full charge ahead and take who wants to come with us :)

 

Your takes don't make sense to me. You don't need the audio to implement MOH. The lessons are short, something you could read aloud in class, discuss, and then do activities with. It's VERY open and go. The reformed/whatever doesn't really show up in VP's elementary stuff. It's actually a great format for a co-op, because you have printable workshops and a way to get everyone on the same page for expectations. You can make one card, one worksheet, work for a wide range of ages. TOG costs money, but I've heard numerous people on the boards mention using it in co-ops. Diana Waring is the only one that's a stretch, and that only because it's sort of non-conventional and out of the box.

 

Who is going to teach the class? Obviously they'll have some opinion on this. It also matters what the target ages are, how much writing or homework they expect, etc.

 

Alternately, you could pick something less controversial to use as a spine and then flesh it out with readings and activities. The Abeka4, BJU8, etc. all would make nice spines.

[Stacy in NJ]

Ok, but I don't see that in the book... Is it SOTW I??

 

She simply doesn't address it.:D

[shanvan]

If SOTW is controversial in your mix of moms, why not chose something else? Not like there aren't plenty of options. VP, TOG, MOH, any of these would make fabulous spines and be less problematic for some people. Truthfully, it's just something some people are going to disagree on. You don't need to be in the position of convincing someone that xyz controversial option ISN'T a problem for them. Just move on to something that does work for everyone. The issues are there, and obviously they're a problem for some of the people in your group.

 

:iagree:Excellent advice! You can see just from this board that people have strong opinions no matter which way they see SOTW. Why open up a huge debate, especially with families you want to co-op with? As Elizabeth mentioned, I do think MOH would be much more adaptable for a co-op situation, and would probably be less controversial.

 

I'm one who decided not to use SOTW 1 after examining it quite a few years back. I remember thinking there was some subtle evolutionary thinking presented--don't ask me where, what wasn't included bothered me more, but you could certainly add to it. All the objections are actually very good learning oportunities even for families who don't agree with the way the material is presented--and they can be worked around. I had other reasons for not using it. I went with TOG for ancients. We do plan to use SOTW 2 alongside TOG next year though.

 

Shannon

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Hey there,

 

I have all 4 volumes. I have 3 sets of the cds. Please point me to the part where evolution and other spots where the books are in conflict with the Bible.

 

OR, pls just give me a link to the thread so I can view this.

 

We are doing a co-op here, and there have been some questions. I'd like to figure this out, before we set what we'll use for history.

 

At home, it's too late! We have them memorized :D

 

I remember someone linking to a really spiffy schedule that matched up each chapter of SOTW with readings in the Bible. Maybe that could be a bridge for families who want to be in the coop but are looking for a more Biblical focus.

 

I think this is the chart I was thinking of. It has event names and page numbers for Egermeier's story bible. But I think it is pretty easy to pencil in the pages for whatever story bible you have at home, or to look up Biblical references.

 

I think that one of the things you might consider is to bring your copies of SOTW and the activity guides, just so people can page through them. It is difficult to figure out from complaints or assurances online if something is within a family's tolerances or not. If they see it, they will be able to make a decision based on what is actually written, not someone else's reaction to it.

 

(FWIW, for me, I didn't find anywhere that was in conflict with the Bible, though there are many Bible stories not included. But there are any number of Christian press fiction works that I have greater issue with.)

[Melissa in Australia]

I know one of the complaints is that the chapter on Abraham mentions that he worshiped multiple gods before his encounter with God.

This is written plainly in the Bible.

[DarlaS]

My concern, coming from the opposite direction, is that all the people in ancient history were written about in one tone, but when we got to old Abe, his feelings and motives were discussed as if he had a true and factual autobiography. He was the first "person" vs. historical character in the book. To me, it was a definite change in tone, and I had read innocently up until that point, pleased with the stories thus far. I felt the author had different feelings about Abraham, and perhaps this is true. As if everything before was in darkness, and he stepped out of the shadows into the light. That's when I switched to Jewish and early Christian history via the Cartoon History of the Universe, which is not as silly as it sounds.:)

 

I love those books! Thank you for reminding me I own them (I bought them a few years back for my eldest ds.)!

[shanvan]

This is written plainly in the Bible.

 

:lol: I was thinking the same thing!

[DarlaS]

Good idea, although... everything causes problems for some, right? I happen to like SOTW and have all the materials :)

VP is too reformed for some. :) I've never used anything but the fronts of the cards.

MOH has cds, but I need the ones without the music :) (I've looked at the curriculum, and it's not as open and go as I'd like)

TOG is a serious buy in, right?

And... I like Diana Waring, but haven't seen her full curricula, we use the cds for listening to "extra history" ;)

So, we haven't all met, just listened to concern. And.... well.... even "classical" is controversial. So, looking for input here ;) and then we'll just have to go full charge ahead and take who wants to come with us :)

 

Sounds like you're on the right track. You really can't please everyone.

 

I wish you lived closer to me! I love the idea of what you're doing. I think you're very brave for starting something like this. :001_smile: I hope you get lots of great families!

[LizzyBee]

I know one of the complaints is that the chapter on Abraham mentions that he worshiped multiple gods before his encounter with God.

 

:iagree: And yet Bible commentaries say the same thing. I've heard other complaints about that chapter, but after comparing it to my dh's conservative commentaries, I decided it was much ado about nothing. :tongue_smilie:

Edited March 6, 2011 by LizzyBee

[Hikin' Mama]

and I don't know if this answers your question. But I am a conservative Christian who believes in a literal 6-day creation and I LOVE SOTW. We're on our second read through of these books (currently Volume 3). I find nothing objectionable in them. I also believe that evolutionary processes exist, but that God placed them within His creation. For what it's worth, I've also used a secular science text and other secular science resources when I felt they were the best for my student(s).

 

I use SOTW because it was exactly what I was looking for when I began homeschooling. When I read on the old board that SWB was creating it, I was eager to try it. When we began using it, I was hooked. I've learned so much from it, and my kids enjoyed it. I hope my grandkids will let me read it to them!

[Slartibartfast]

This affirms my decision to not do co-ops. :lol:

 

I think I would be worn out by controversy. I like SOTW, we use it. :)

[SonshineLearner]

I like a good thought provoking, with no hurt feelings, discussion :) I also like being in a co-op that I'm at least in co-charge of.... I like teaching what I believe is the truth, not having to have a "higher up" level... etc...

 

I'm EXCITED about this upcoming year... hopefully being someone who can help our collective families raise the bar for our children and provide support and a good atmosphere for family learning!!!

 

:)

[Melissa in Australia]

:iagree: And yet Bible commentaries say the same thing. I've heard other complaints about that chapter, but after comparing it to my dh's conservative commentaries, I decided it was much ado about nothing. :tongue_smilie:

It isn't bible commentaries saying the same, it is the BIBLE saying it.

[yellowperch]

kalanamak, I just ordered the first three cartoon history books--I found them used on Amazon. Thanks for mentioning them--my kids love this kind of thing!