Ok, so I am finally absolutely convinced Americans are going to face VERY rough times

[Trish]

But then, few things sell gold like good old fear. :glare: Whenever I hear someone say to invest in gold in preparation for the collapse of civilization, I know they're a fan of Glenn Beck.

 

My brother has bought a lot of gold in preparation for the collapse of the financial system, hopefully not "civilization" per se. I guess I agree with him theoretically, but even gold would be no relief in case of a complete collapse.

 

Neither of us is a Beck fan.

 

Beck may accidentally be right, who knows, but my brother works in finance in NYC, and reads more "deep" financial sources, and of course has connections in the industry. But even there a lot of people are hoping the system can be saved, while a significant percentage seem to be preparing otherwise.

 

Usually Joe and Jane Flatscreen are the last to know, so maybe Beck is doing some people a service, if it causes them to be a teeny bit more prepared than they would otherwise.

 

We're putting in a garden, but I have no illusions about growing all my own food!

[kristavws]

economically and hyper-inflation is coming. We don't live on a farm(although we live on 10 wooded acres) have no animals and don't even have a garden. Could someone give me a resource to the most basic starting point help to prepare for extremely bad times?

 

I've read a little from old threads, but they're a bit overwhelming- would really like a simple resource. TIA

 

We have a farm, and try to be as self-sufficient as possible. I posted this list in a thread awhile back, but thought I would repost it for you here. Here are the books that I have on my bookshelf, and have found helpful over the years:

 

Livestock Books

Keeping a Family Cow

Treating Dairy Cows Naturally

Small Scale Pig Raising

Home Butchering and Meat Preservation

Storey's Guide to Raising Chickens

The Chicken Health Handbook

 

Gardening Books

Seed to Seed: Seed Saving and Growing Techniques for the Vegetable Garden

The Vegetable Gardeners Bible

The Complete Book of Herbs

The Organic Gardeners Handbook of Natural Insect and Disease Control

Companion Planting for Successful Gardening

Botanica's Organic Gardening

How to Make a Forest Garden

The Grape Grower

From Vines to Wines

I also have some region specifics books

 

Preservation Books

The Ball Book

Preserving Summer's Bounty

Root Cellaring

Home Cheese Making

I have a book on dehydrating food, but I can't find it!

 

Other Books

Basic Country Skills

The Crisis Preparedness Handbook

The Foxfire Book

 

My dh has a TON of books on solar and wind power (we do have solar panels, and at the ranch we owned before, he built a wind turbine, which he used to power his entire workshop and office (he worked from home), as well as books on building barns, sheds, and shelters. If anyone is interested in specific titles, let me know, and I will see if I can locate them. He's not good about putting books back on the sheves!

 

Krista

[In2why]

People like that do annoy me. We live in the smallest apartment known to man, buy everything used, keep everything forever unless it is literally dissolving into irretrievable pieces, and haven't paid for cable or internet (we use random floating wi-fi when it's available) in I don't know how long. And we still can't afford to buy food without help. *sigh*

 

I should find out where the local dump is- I could probably get quite a bit of good, easily-fixable stuff there. :D

 

 

I hope this isn't getting too personal, but through Cubscouts we work with a program called Angel Food ministries. I know they are all over, and maybe in your area? I know they are online so google them if you get a chance. It isn't an assistance program but is a coop food purchase. I believe they also take food stamps. The way it works is that you order ahead of time, and they have different boxes of food to order. It is good food and by buying in bulk you get the food at less than half price. You also know what you are getting, so it isn't the same as a foodbank. The scouts here help unload and pack the boxes.

 

I am always threatening my husband about bringing home anything from the dump, but he has brought back 3 bicycles with hardly anything wrong with them. We fix them and the cousins have bikes to ride when they come over. So go figure. We also rescued a wash machine that was on it's way to the dump. It was only a year old, and super capacity, unlike mine. DH spent 20 bucks on parts and I have a "new to me Wash machine" I used to roll my eyes at his need to "save" things but now I can admire it.

Edited February 19, 2011 by In2why

[lmkzbcb]

In this country, if a teen girl has a baby without benefit of marriage she qualifies for all sorts of government programs. My oldest 2, one in college and one just recently graduated, have told me they know a number of girls that have had a baby so they will qualify for free tuition, housing, and food stamps and subsidized child care, or did it to get away from home. Check out Star Parker's website www.urbancure.org. She is a former welfare mom of 2 who talks about how she received free everything, would drop her kids off at paid childcare and go to the beach. I saw her in an interview where she said she knew many more like her.

 

I'm not saying this is true for all teen moms, certainly. I did not intend to offend any who have found themselves in this position unintentionally, took responsibility and worked to better the lives of themselves and their child. Unfortunately, there are many who see a child as a ticket to a free ride, with no thought to the kind of life they are condemning that child to.

 

My SIL is a physical therapist for disabled children and sees several in a hospital setting. At one particular hospital, they had a new mother of 19 whose family broke out into a fist fight in her hospital room. During the fight, one of the grandmothers of new baby said she was going to have to raise that baby herself. The mother of baby said, "No one is taking that baby from me, that is MY CHECK."

Um, yeah, I would say that although not everyone has this mentality, it is definitely out there. Not only is it out there, but this girl saw nothing wrong with refering to her child as a check and didnt care if the whole hospital maternity floor heard. How do I know she didnt see anyting wrong with it? She repeated it to the nurse on duty as to the reason why she had a child.

Needless to say, it was all reported to the proper authorities.

 

I am NOT saying that all single mothers are like this. My sister was a teen mom and really struggled and the whole family helped her a lot. BUT that was our family culture; she was not looking at that child as a check. However, there are many that know how to work the system and do it on purpose.

[Joanne]

My SIL is a physical therapist for disabled children and sees several in a hospital setting. At one particular hospital, they had a new mother of 19 whose family broke out into a fist fight in her hospital room. During the fight, one of the grandmothers of new baby said she was going to have to raise that baby herself. The mother of baby said, "No one is taking that baby from me, that is MY CHECK."

Um, yeah, I would say that although not everyone has this mentality, it is definitely out there. Not only is it out there, but this girl saw nothing wrong with refering to her child as a check and didnt care if the whole hospital maternity floor heard. How do I know she didnt see anyting wrong with it? She repeated it to the nurse on duty as to the reason why she had a child.

Needless to say, it was all reported to the proper authorities.

 

I am NOT saying that all single mothers are like this. My sister was a teen mom and really struggled and the whole family helped her a lot. BUT that was our family culture; she was not looking at that child as a check. However, there are many that know how to work the system and do it on purpose.

 

Anecdotal stories aside, the monetary percentage represented by these social programs is not a significant part of our current financial crisis.

 

I will call your "abuse the system" stories and raise you by the dozen or so in person, hard working, employed or between jobs people I know who have accpeted help - without abuse or chronic use of the system.

[Snowfall]

So organizing a sick day call in at the students' expense is a tactic you condone?

 

YUP! That's how people strike. Teachers have a right to strike. What else do you expect them to do? Write letters? You're saying they don't have a right to strike because they're teachers. I disagree. If the governor's so worried about the children, he can fix the bill so that it deals with the unions instead of dismantling them. Clearly he and his state legislature aren't too worried about the poor students, because they're making no attempt to fix the bill so that it addresses budgetary problems without making it illegal for workers to collectively bargain. Does this mean ramming through legislation that includes union busting at the students' expense is a tactic you condone? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but I wanted to point out that it's amazing how it goes both ways. ;)

[lmkzbcb]

Anecdotal stories aside, the monetary percentage represented by these social programs is not a significant part of our current financial crisis.

 

I will call your "abuse the system" stories and raise you by the dozen or so in person, hard working, employed or between jobs people I know who have accpeted help - without abuse or chronic use of the system.

 

I gave a personal account story for both sides. The point being that different families have different internal cultures. Both sides of the spectrum exist, and I could not deny that.

I do not condone removing all social programs. However, there has got to be a way to stop people like the girl in the hospital; yet help those who are where they are by no fault of their own.

Moreover, concerning the national debt and expeditures, I think the US would do far better to stop giving other nations free money and start taxing imports at the same rate our goods are taxed into their country (among some other things, I've been toying with the idea of fair tax).

 

For anyone interested here is the link that gives the exact numbers for the $ we spend on social programs. Dont freak out at the number, although large it is only a fraction of our expenditures.

Here is what it said about the $ amount.

 

"According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census, in 2000 the two major categories of public cash benefit payments paid out about $50 billion. Family assistance payments (primarily AFDC/TANF, not including Medicaid) totaled $18.3 billion."

Read more: How Much Does the Nation Spend on Welfare? - Public Aid - Percent, Total, Programs, Billion, Medical, and Government http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/872/How-Much-Does-Nation-Spend-on-Welfare-PUBLIC-AID.html#ixzz1ENibOpGL

Part of me can't help but wonder what would happen if there wasn't any more money for the govt. to spend. At some point, nations may stop lending us money and then what?

 

 

[hillfarm]

I finally got time to read this whole thread!

 

We live on a small farm. As others have stated, it is not easy. The work is hard and relentless. The learning curve is steep. But we do love this lifestyle and will probably continue with it indefinitely, regardless of what the economy does.

 

I do have a few comments...

 

If you are planning to run for the hills in the event of urban chaos, don't come unless you are invited or you own a home here and have it well stocked. As we rural residents already know, life is tough here. It will be even tougher if you are trying to live as an unwelcome squatter in a makeshift shelter on someone else's land, with no or very little food and minimal survival skills. There is little employment, especially during hard economic times, and few social services. You will be on your own in a hostile environment. Nature does not favor the ill prepared.

 

If you know people who are currently prepared or getting that way, don't expect to run to them when times get tough. Don't put friends or family in the position of having to decide between you and your children and their own family. Again, if you are not invited, then you will not be welcome. Don't joke about this now - they won't find it funny. Don't kid yourself. They will not feed you. If you want to know you will be fed, then make preparations today to do it yourself.

 

If you have been invited and circumstances come to pass that you must relocate to someone else's home, come wearing work clothes, carrying farm tools, pulling a cart heavily laden with food and medical supplies behind you. Be prepared to work like a dog and to take orders gladly. This is what it will take to make a go of it.

 

Remember that the frugal, low tech, old fashioned lifestyle doesn't come easily. You will not be able to pick it up quickly. It requires a great deal of physical stamina, mental toughness, and an incredible number of learned skills. The best advice I can give is to identify your priorities and start learning how to address them today. Everything you can do or learn will improve your future situation, should these worst-case predictions come to pass. The goal of all these preparations is to be able to support your family while you are transitioning into a different, more self-sufficient lifestyle. Don't expect to stock up a lifetime supply of things, stock enough to give you time to find new, sustainable ways of doing things.

 

I would love it if none of this materialized, if we had a wonderful turn around and everything came up rainbows and pink ponies. But as a wife and mother, I consider it my responsibility to plan as if these troubles will come to pass. Then, if they do, we will be okay. If they don't, we will be okay and have the luxury and convenience of being well stocked.

Edited February 19, 2011 by hillfarm

[lmkzbcb]

My dh has a TON of books on solar and wind power (we do have solar panels, and at the ranch we owned before, he built a wind turbine, which he used to power his entire workshop and office (he worked from home), as well as books on building barns, sheds, and shelters. If anyone is interested in specific titles, let me know, and I will see if I can locate them. He's not good about putting books back on the sheves!

 

Krista

 

I would be interested.

 

Also please re post your list on this thread http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246042

 

It was a very good list. Thanks for the info!

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

If you are planning to run for the hills in the event of urban chaos, don't come unless you are invited or you own a home here and have it well stocked. As we rural residents already know, life is tough here. It will be even tougher if you are trying to live as an unwelcome squatter in a makeshift shelter on someone else's land, with no or very little food and minimal survival skills. There is little employment, especially during hard economic times, and few social services. You will be on your own in a hostile environment. Nature does not favor the ill prepared.

 

If you know people who are currently prepared or getting that way, don't expect to run to them when times get tough. Don't put friends or family in the position of having to decide between you and your children and their own family. Again, if you are not invited, then you will not be welcome. Don't joke about this now - they won't find it funny. Don't kid yourself. They will not feed you. If you want to know you will be fed, then make preparations today to do it yourself.

 

If you have been invited and circumstances come to pass that you must relocate to someone else's home, come wearing work clothes, carrying farm tools, pulling a cart heavily laden with food and medical supplies behind you. Be prepared to work like a dog and to take orders gladly. This is what it will take to make a go of it.

 

Remember that the frugal, low tech, old fashioned lifestyle doesn't come easily. You will not be able to pick it up quickly. It requires a great deal of physical stamina, mental toughness, and an incredible number of learned skills. The best advice I can give is to identify your priorities and start learning how to address them today. Everything you can do or learn will improve your future situation, should these worst-case predictions come to pass.

 

I would love it if none of this materialized, if we had a wonderful turn around and everything came up rainbows and pink ponies. But as a wife and mother, I consider it my responsibility to plan as if these troubles will come to pass. Then, if they do, we will be okay. If they don't, we will be okay and have the luxury and convenience of being well stocked.

 

I have been a habitue of homesteading and frugal forums for years and never once have I seen anyone say their emergency plan was to go to the country and live as a begging squatter or mooch off their relatives.

 

Who exactly are you talking to with this tone? Has someone in this thread said that they would have the slightest notion of behaving like this?

[Mergath]

I am NOT saying that all single mothers are like this. My sister was a teen mom and really struggled and the whole family helped her a lot. BUT that was our family culture; she was not looking at that child as a check. However, there are many that know how to work the system and do it on purpose.

 

This kind of mindset isn't exactly unique to the poor, either. I have an (ex) friend who intentionally hopped from one wealthy guy to the next. She's on her second kid with the current guy (the first child was an intentional "accident"). She wants nothing to do with the kids, and only sees them for a few hours a week, if even that. She only had them as her ticket to lifelong support from this poor sucker.

 

Some women are just lazy and self-centered. However, I don't think we should punish the whole for the errors of the few.

[Mergath]

Who exactly are you talking to with this tone? Has someone in this thread said that they would have the slightest notion of behaving like this?

 

Apparently, to all of us who aren't awesome enough to have fifty acres of farmland and a herd of cattle. Since it would seem we're all filthy squatters who need to be put in our place. :001_rolleyes:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Apparently, to all of us who aren't awesome enough to have fifty acres of farmland and a herd of cattle. Since it would seem we're all filthy squatters who need to be put in our place. :001_rolleyes:

 

Funny, I don't feel like a zombie or a ravening horde...

[Mergath]

Funny, I don't feel like a zombie or a ravening horde...

 

Me neither. At least, not after ten in the morning and my first pot of coffee.

[lmkzbcb]

This kind of mindset isn't exactly unique to the poor, either. I have an (ex) friend who intentionally hopped from one wealthy guy to the next. She's on her second kid with the current guy (the first child was an intentional "accident"). She wants nothing to do with the kids, and only sees them for a few hours a week, if even that. She only had them as her ticket to lifelong support from this poor sucker.

 

Some women are just lazy and self-centered. However, I don't think we should punish the whole for the errors of the few.

 

I have seen this too, unfortunately. And I agree about not punishing the whole for the errors of others. That is why I said this

 

I gave a personal account story for both sides. The point being that different families have different internal cultures. Both sides of the spectrum exist, and I could not deny that.

I do not condone removing all social programs. However, there has got to be a way to stop people like the girl in the hospital; yet help those who are where they are by no fault of their own.

Moreover, concerning the national debt and expeditures, I think the US would do far better to stop giving other nations free money and start taxing imports at the same rate our goods are taxed into their country (among some other things, I've been toying with the idea of fair tax).

 

For anyone interested here is the link that gives the exact numbers for the $ we spend on social programs. Dont freak out at the number, although large it is only a fraction of our expenditures.

Here is what it said about the $ amount.

 

"According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census, in 2000 the two major categories of public cash benefit payments paid out about $50 billion. Family assistance payments (primarily AFDC/TANF, not including Medicaid) totaled $18.3 billion."

 

 

 

 

Read more:

How Much Does the Nation Spend on Welfare? - Public Aid - Percent, Total, Programs, Billion, Medical, and Government http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/872/How-Much-Does-Nation-Spend-on-Welfare-PUBLIC-AID.html#ixzz1ENibOpGL

 

 

 

 

 

Part of me can't help but wonder what would happen if there wasn't any more money for the govt. to spend. At some point, nations may stop lending us money and then what?

 

 

 

 

 

Hey I just found out that I can quote myself! :lol:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Me neither. At least, not after ten in the morning and my first pot of coffee.

 

Oh, good point. Must make mental note to not descend upon hapless country folk until after morning coffee, at which time I'll have gone off the idea.

 

Maybe embroider that on a tea towel, to serve as a constant reminder in case of hard times?

[Mergath]

I have seen this too, unfortunately. And I agree about not punishing the whole for the errors of others. That is why I said this

 

True, but it's impossible to sort out who gets help and who doesn't based on their intentions. Yes, the people who actually break the rules should be punished, but you can't say, "Well, that one's a good mother, so we'll help her, but I just know that one's only having babies to get more food assistance." If we don't help everyone who qualifies, we end up playing god.

[Mergath]

Maybe embroider that on a tea towel, to serve as a constant reminder in case of hard times?

 

Sounds very nice. Once civilization has collapsed, I'll trade you a dead chicken and a candle stub for a tea towel like that.

[Once]

One thing you may want to do is check out chrismartenson.com. He's a PhD biochemist who got interested in the economy and put together a free set of videos called the "Crash Course" that is an excellent summary of some of the concerns that have been mentioned earlier in this thread. You can access these videos here - http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse or on youtube for free.

 

He also has a section about getting started with preparation here - http://www.chrismartenson.com/page/what-should-i-do. I would highly recommend looking through that as well.

 

 

This is talking a bit over my head but I am determined to try to understand it. Could you please tell me when this crash course was first presented.....is he explaining the housing bubble or did he predict it?

 

I do not think of myself as an alarmist but some of the information he presents is fairly alarming! Especially the numbers on federal debt.....I mean I knew it was bad but I did not think it was that bad! It seems to me that the combination of emergencies has the posibility of being incredibly disabling and can create a significant change in international power. Am I wrong?

 

 

ETA: Looking at the second link is so much more comforting and helpful.....perhaps I should have waited until I looked through all of it.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Once

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Sounds very nice. Once civilization has collapsed, I'll trade you a dead chicken and a candle stub for a tea towel like that.

 

*like*

[hillfarm]

I have been a habitue of homesteading and frugal forums for years and never once have I seen anyone say their emergency plan was to go to the country and live as a begging squatter or mooch off their relatives.

 

Who exactly are you talking to with this tone? Has someone in this thread said that they would have the slightest notion of behaving like this?

 

We must be reading different forums! I have on several occasions read posts from people on homesteading and preparedness forums who believe that they will be able to evacuate to the countryside and "make a living there". Of course, none of them plan to become begging squatters. They just haven't thought it through. They are so consumed with how to "get out of Dodge" that they haven't given much thought to what would happen once they reach the "wilderness". But it does happen. I have personally seen their rain-soaked, cast off mattresses and the remnants of their illegal homes along the edges of the thousands of acres of national forest near my home.

 

Regarding mooching off relatives, you're kidding, right? In my county, even now one of the biggest trends is for adult married children with children of their own to come back home and move in with dear old Mom and Dad because they have lost employment elsewhere. A teacher friend of mine told me that her school had already processed 17 new families since the beginning of 2011. And believe me, very few of these new adults in our community will find work. There just isn't any to be had. If they had pockets fully lined with savings, I don't belive they would have come back here and moved back in with their parents either.

 

Seriously, have you never seen the jokes on your frugal and homesteading forums where posters will say, tongue in cheek I assume, that they don't need to prep, they will just go take what they need from their Mormon neighbors? I have always found those comments to be in very poor taste, but they do surface occasionally. And have you not read the frequent laments by those who do prepare about how frustrated they get when a coworker or family member says, "I don't have to prepare, I'll just come to your place."? Believe me, my tone here is mild compared with the responses often bandied about in the preparedness community to such statements.

 

As to whom I am "talking to with this tone", I am addressing any misguided person who might be basing their emergency plans on these contingencies that are unlikely to pan out. Yes, in the previous 16 or so pages of this thread, I did see comments that made me suspect that some might have not have thought their "exit strategy" through completely. I chose not to name names so as not to embarrass anyone specifically.

 

I want us all to thrive and do well. I would hate for any of us to suffer. I commented in an attempt to provide a wake up call for any who might be relying on circumstances that may well not be realistic. Sorry if you find my tone offensive. It was intended as a jolt to help wake people up, not as an insult to them. I didn't say "you are lost", I said "you need to get a better plan". And I do have personal experience and first hand knowledge of the issues upon which I commented. You are fortunate if your experience is not quite so grim.

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

Lordy, I have had grim experiences. Just not of the same variety.

 

Don't forget to stock ammunition, now. Sounds like you'll probably need to do some shootin' when the SHTF.

[Mergath]

We must be reading different forums! I have on several occasions read posts from people on homesteading and preparedness forums who believe that they will be able to evacuate to the countryside and "make a living there".

 

I can't help wondering exactly what sort of doomsday scenario requires everyone to flee to the country with a basket of trowels. Alien attack, maybe? Zombie attack? Zombie aliens?

 

Everyone seems to think that, if things here collapse economically, the world as we know it will be completely obliterated. Phooey, I say. Things will certainly become much more difficult for some, but I find it highly unlikely that there will be killers roaming the streets and piles of famine victims in ditches. Much would probably continue on as it always has, because that benefits the producers and the consumers.

[hillfarm]

Lordy, I have had grim experiences. Just not of the same variety.

 

Don't forget to stock ammunition, now. Sounds like you'll probably need to do some shootin' when the SHTF.

 

Is there some reason you feel that my desire to caution people not to have unrealistic expectations deserves to be insulted? Because your experiences are different, does that make mine invalid and worthy of being mocked?

 

Do you think my comments were incorrect? Will families with minimal survival or wilderness experience be able to thrive with no house, no food, no resources? Do you think a family that has prepared to care for their 3 children will gladly open their doors to another family they were not expecting? I commented because I want people to see the truth, to expose the misconception that all will be well in the country if things get bad. It is getting bad out here right now. People need to know not to rely on us as their escape hatch.

 

You brought up shooting, not me. And I did find that offensive. We live a very rural lifestyle. We have guns for hunting and protecting our livestock from wolves, bears, and coyotes. We do not joke about shooting.

[Mergath]

Will families with minimal survival or wilderness experience be able to thrive with no house, no food, no resources?

 

Uh-oh... are the aliens going to take our houses?

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

hillfarm, I didn't set out to mock. I was truly shocked and offended on behalf of these intelligent reasonable people that you would set in with such a condescending and accusatory diatribe.

 

Then Mergath said what she said and it struck me funny so I joked a bit.

 

And I'm Appalachian on my Daddy's side, so I do sometimes joke about shooting. Part of those grim experiences of my own.

 

Anyway, I'm sorry for offending you. I was kind of rude, and I sincerely apologize.

 

I agree with Mergath that the threat is probably not as great as you fear, because people *that* ignorant and with such lazy intentions are probably too dumb and ill-equipped to even make it past the suburbs if things really fall apart.

[Mergath]

Okay, now I feel bad. I take back my comment about the aliens.

 

Seriously though, we're not going to go from the way things are now to utter desolation in a heartbeat. People will still have houses. We'll still have largescale farms producing food, though it will likely be a lot more expensive. The government will still exist, and if things got really bad, other countries would give aid until we got back on our feet. People will have to walk a lot, though that's probably a good thing for a lot of people.

 

Things could get harder, but they're not going to be post-apocalyptic.

[hillfarm]

Personally, I don't think it will get this bad either. I don't follow Glen Beck or others of that type so I'm not quite sure what is prompting threads like these. But since I have commented on other threads about things like canning, gardening, heating with wood, etc., I have received numerous PMs from people here who seem to feel a strong need to do something but don't often have any understanding of what it takes to live in a rural area. While I don't expect them to ever have to come, I don't know the future and I suppose the worst case scenario could happen and that they might actually come. If they do, I don't want them to be counting on circumstances that they have told me they expect.

 

I'm sorry you find this such a condescending and accusatory diatribe, so shocking and offensive. My comments were directed only at those who were planning to come if things got bad, and who had little idea of the realities of rural life. I made no assumption that everyone would come, nor that none of them had the crucial knowledge or connections.

 

I assume that most intelligent, reasonable people would be able to ride hard economic times out where they are. Where they have the support of friends and family and know the best way to survive in their environment.

 

I'm not expecting zombies or aliens. I don't have a 50 acre farm, nor a herd of cattle. I was surprised that you seem to think I do. I was trying to help people be realistic, but instead I felt like I got caught in a game of Kill the Messenger because my message isn't comforting.

 

The original post referred to "extremely bad times" and "facing VERY rough times", and implied that ability to produce one's own food was relevant. I was responding to that scenario, not indicating that I expect it is imminent. My comment about having no houses was about having no houses here in the country, waiting for them. (I assume everyone in more urban areas has a much fancier abode than my humble farm house.;))

 

My dh has finally returned home after helping a neighbor repair water lines that froze during the recent bad weather, so I will end for tonight. Good night.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mama Geek]

Just something interesting to add to this thread. We've been looking at houses (specifically foreclosures) over the last couple of weeks. There are a number of homes that have had the air conditioners stolen, and any copper pipes run on the outside of the house.

 

Dh talked to someone last night who bought a house in a development that was left unfinished a few years ago. He finished his house, has very few neighbors and said he can't leave his house for any extended length of time because things will get stolen from it. Oh by the way these are approx 2000 sf houses that haven't sold and are being advertised at about $50000.

 

We've come across a few large developments that are like this and we have only been seriously looking for a couple of weeks.

 

I think we are going to see more of this in "regular" neighborhoods as things get worse.

 

I don't blindly follow Beck, although I know there are lots of people who think Beck fans don't think for themselves. I have watched Glenn Beck who I know is not popular, but I also read a ton, both online and books by lots of different people. I can look at the national debt clock and see for myself the state of the national economy. I know most if not all of the states are in massive amounts of debt as well. The cost of food, gas, electric, etc are all going up. Private industry salaries are decreasing. The only jobs that I know of where pay in still increasing is government jobs. Yeah if you look at the CEO's of the largest corporations, their pay is going up as well, but they are closely tied to the federal government.

 

I usually get flamed when I post to these threads, so I might as well really go for it. If we cut our military, I believe we will find ourselves in a war that we can not win with China, Russia, or the middle east. If that happens this country will look very different. There are lots of people in other countries that would like to see the end of the US being a super power. There will be a country ready step up and take our place and it won't be pretty.

[Peela]

I usually get flamed when I post to these threads, so I might as well really go for it. If we cut our military, I believe we will find ourselves in a war that we can not win with China, Russia, or the middle east. If that happens this country will look very different. There are lots of people in other countries that would like to see the end of the US being a super power. There will be a country ready step up and take our place and it won't be pretty.

 

I suspect it is inevitable that the U.S.'s time as a superpower are over, or soon over.

[....]

If you are planning to run for the hills in the event of urban chaos, don't come unless you are invited or you own a home here and have it well stocked. As we rural residents already know, life is tough here. It will be even tougher if you are trying to live as an unwelcome squatter in a makeshift shelter on someone else's land, with no or very little food and minimal survival skills. There is little employment, especially during hard economic times, and few social services. You will be on your own in a hostile environment. Nature does not favor the ill prepared.

 

If you know people who are currently prepared or getting that way, don't expect to run to them when times get tough. Don't put friends or family in the position of having to decide between you and your children and their own family. Again, if you are not invited, then you will not be welcome. Don't joke about this now - they won't find it funny. Don't kid yourself. They will not feed you. If you want to know you will be fed, then make preparations today to do it yourself.

 

 

Sheesh, People. Seriously. I spent half my life on a farm and half my life in cities. Everybody's making it out to be more than it is.

 

And another thing, if you're "preparing for something", you're not supposed to be advertising it.

[In2why]

I have been a habitue of homesteading and frugal forums for years and never once have I seen anyone say their emergency plan was to go to the country and live as a begging squatter or mooch off their relatives.

 

Who exactly are you talking to with this tone? Has someone in this thread said that they would have the slightest notion of behaving like this?

 

 

I think in general she is correct. We live in hurricane land, and for most people their idea of planning is to empty Walmart of bread and batteries a couple of days ahead of a hurricane threat. My FIL and I get teased about having water and generators, until the power goes out for a week or more, and then everyone comes to our house. We live in the Bay surrounded by water, our comunity loses power often. I don't mind and plan for it to happen, and love our neighborhood and how they all come together when it happens. We have huge block parties and grill, get chain saws to remove debris from all the houses, and pull together. My favorite was forgetting instant coffee....and my neighbor bringing me some. (I now stock instant). And I had an extra manual can opener which one of our neighbors hadn't thought about getting. I would hope that in any disaster we would continue to help one another. But if something major happens and it become long term, some people will be prepared and some won't. Part of thinking long term is how to address that if it happened.

[In2why]

True, but it's impossible to sort out who gets help and who doesn't based on their intentions. Yes, the people who actually break the rules should be punished, but you can't say, "Well, that one's a good mother, so we'll help her, but I just know that one's only having babies to get more food assistance." If we don't help everyone who qualifies, we end up playing god.

 

 

True. And even when I am feeling the most selfish, I know that we HAVE to take care of our children and elderly as a nation. To do any less is barbaric.

[mirth]

So for the rough-times believer, are you trying to gain a lot of weight right now, or plan to? If so, when (ie what would be your trigger)? Bears store up fat for the winter. Physically fattening up would seem to be the way animals deal with VERY rough times.

[Jennifer3141]

I'm at the beginning of "living off the land." And I cannot believe the research I have to do to keep bees!! :001_smile:

I've got 15 heritage chickens coming in September and I hope I have enough time to read enough to be preapred for them...

 

The raised bed gardens are doing well and I think I'll just keep adding to them every year. We've got 3 so far and I hope to add 3 more as the year progresses. And then there's the orchard...

 

In the next year or two, I'd like to learn about cover crops and growing grain like wheat and oats.

 

My 10 acres could very well keep me busy for the rest of my life. My hat is off to anyone who farms on a large scale. Wow.

 

I would really be happier if Armageddon came in about 3 years... :001_huh:

By then, I should have milk goats.

[In2why]

This is talking a bit over my head but I am determined to try to understand it. Could you please tell me when this crash course was first presented.....is he explaining the housing bubble or did he predict it?

 

I do not think of myself as an alarmist but some of the information he presents is fairly alarming! Especially the numbers on federal debt.....I mean I knew it was bad but I did not think it was that bad! It seems to me that the combination of emergencies has the posibility of being incredibly disabling and can create a significant change in international power. Am I wrong?

 

 

ETA: Looking at the second link is so much more comforting and helpful.....perhaps I should have waited until I looked through all of it.

 

 

I haven't looked at these videos and I don't listen to Beck. But at the same time I do have an interest in History. All great nations fall. It is as simple as that. We are bankrupt and other countries have watched it happen, some have helped it happen, and others have cheered it happening. We are like frogs in a kettle on a slow boil.

[lmrich]

So if storing extra on my rear is preparing for the economic downfall a whole lot of people (including me) have been preparing for this. Finally the US obesity rate makes sense!:lol:

 

I think we can all prepare by learning new skills to be more self reliant. Learn a little bit each week on how to garden, sew, change the oil in your car. Hey! I firmly believe with hard work, we will survive. I have been re-reading Gone With the Wind. Even Scarlett learned how to pick cotton. We can all learn basic skills to provide for ourselves. It is just smart, no matter what the future brings. I personally hate to rely on others for something I can do myself. (not a good trait when I am on crutches again for the fifth time in two years) We all need to be more independent, just like our founding fathers wanted for us.

[FaithManor]

Mirth, that was a very snarky, completely uncalled for comment. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if you posted about something you believe is a potential problem and others made fun of you.

 

The board has been really nasty and snarky lately people need to chill. If you don't believe what someone else believes. Fine...you don't have to be mean to others.

 

Faith -

[mirth]

I'm not being mean. I'm sorry you think so. Gaining weight, or having fat stores, is a way to deal with hard times. Some people are talking about having stores in the home lasting over a year. I am asking about stores on the body. It hadn't been mentioned. It has to be something that survivalists have considered as an obvious defense or have discounted. (I don't read a lot of survivalist lit)

 

What works for animals should have a chance of working for humans. Is this really so far-fetched, or offensive a notion?

 

In fact, denying it makes for a sort of luxurious disconnect. I think 99% of the people I know would feel like they were in survival mode if the power went off for _______ days. Nevermind months, or indefinitely. No natural disaster. No wars. Just no power. Animals deal with this all time and somehow have adapted their lives to it. Could humans not try this first or consider trying it, without bringing out the arms and barricades?

Edited February 19, 2011 by mirth

[creekland]

I'm not being mean. I'm sorry you think so. Gaining weight, or having fat stores, is a way to deal with hard times. Some people are talking about having stores in the home lasting over a year. I am asking about stores on the body. It hadn't been mentioned. It has to be something that survivalists have considered as an obvious defense or have discounted. (I don't read a lot of survivalist lit)

 

If it means anything, I found it as humorous, not at all mean. I thought it was funny.

 

AND, I live on a farm where we have the ability to get a lot of our own food when/if we need it. We garden already and know our neighbors, etc.

 

Considering the level of debt our country is already in and the fact that is is growing, I just consider living somewhere where one can get their own food to be a good safety net.

 

I actually remember my dad telling my sister and I (back in the early 70's), "Always live somewhere where you can grow your own food. It something major ever happens many things won't be worth anything anymore, but having your own food can keep you alive." I don't remember a whole lot that my dad taught me, but that nugget has stayed with me all these years. (Dad was telling us this when we were out working in the garden.)

 

We're not stockpiling, but we do have a generator as well as general supplies. I have never seen Glenn Beck.

[Julie in AZ]

What do you do when you have nothing to begin with? I see this looming up in the future, and besides reading lots of books on self-sufficiency from the library and learning to sew, I do not see anything else I can do. I couldn't even grow seeds in a window box, because we are living out of a room in my parents' house.

 

If you can buy one extra item a week that is on sale, you could start to stockpile. You can store extra water and food items under your bed. Having extra food and water on hand may give you more peace of mind. :grouphug:

 

Here's a homeschool mom in a suburb who has some good ideas about how to start.

[In2why]

I can't help wondering exactly what sort of doomsday scenario requires everyone to flee to the country with a basket of trowels. Alien attack, maybe? Zombie attack? Zombie aliens?

 

Everyone seems to think that, if things here collapse economically, the world as we know it will be completely obliterated. Phooey, I say. Things will certainly become much more difficult for some, but I find it highly unlikely that there will be killers roaming the streets and piles of famine victims in ditches. Much would probably continue on as it always has, because that benefits the producers and the consumers.

 

There are a few very simple scenarios. Lets say the Flu pandemic of 1918 hits again. Most people say it isn't if it is when. History is full of them. Now we are world travelers in a way that people were in the early 1900's so instead of pockets of the flu it will be even more widespread, and at the same time instead of crossing the world in waves.

 

Bodies will pile up and overwhelm both our hospitals and our morgues. Our police, doctors, nurses, and military personel will suffer the same casualties as others and perhaps more because they will be on the front lines. There will be an initial run on food so the stores will be out of non-perishable food. Will we want to go to the bank to get cash, and will there be cash for the people who live paycheck to paycheck? Of course we know price gouging will be in effect because we have seen it in our nations natural disasters. There will also be an element of our society who decide to use this time to loot. People in Katrina were carrying away Flat screen TV's in 4 feet of water even though they didn't have electricity. But instead of being a small contained area like New Orleans it will be nationwide since the same thing is going on all over the country and all over the world. Luckily some people will survive the new flu and have an immunity to it and can help restore order. But that will take awhile. That is just one scenario....I don't stay up at night freaking out, but a simple reading of history, makes a person realize that it isn't zombies we need to worry about.

[Brilliant]

I'm not being mean. I'm sorry you think so. Gaining weight, or having fat stores, is a way to deal with hard times. Some people are talking about having stores in the home lasting over a year. I am asking about stores on the body. It hadn't been mentioned. It has to be something that survivalists have considered as an obvious defense or have discounted. (I don't read a lot of survivalist lit)

 

What works for animals should have a chance of working for humans. Is this really so far-fetched, or offensive a notion?

 

In fact, denying it makes for a sort of luxurious disconnect. I think 99% of the people I know would feel like they were in survival mode if the power went off for _______ days. Nevermind months, or indefinitely. No natural disaster. No wars. Just no power. Animals deal with this all time and somehow have adapted their lives to it. Could humans not try this first or consider trying it, without bringing out the arms and barricades?

 

This is why women have historically fared better in times of famine than men - we have more fat.

 

But the problem with this approach (intentionally gaining weight) is that you are betting your life that there WILL be a famine. If the famine starts next year and you have intentionally put on an extra 40 pounds in that year - great - you are better off than your skinny neighbor. But if the hoped-for event (famine) doesn't come for many years, and you have been accumulating and carrying around a lot of extra weight during that time - then your skinny neighbor comes out ahead because you are dead from heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc. Famine is the least of your worries.

[In2why]

I'm not being mean. I'm sorry you think so. Gaining weight, or having fat stores, is a way to deal with hard times. Some people are talking about having stores in the home lasting over a year. I am asking about stores on the body. It hadn't been mentioned. It has to be something that survivalists have considered as an obvious defense or have discounted. (I don't read a lot of survivalist lit)

 

What works for animals should have a chance of working for humans. Is this really so far-fetched, or offensive a notion?

 

In fact, denying it makes for a sort of luxurious disconnect. I think 99% of the people I know would feel like they were in survival mode if the power went off for _______ days. Nevermind months, or indefinitely. No natural disaster. No wars. Just no power. Animals deal with this all time and somehow have adapted their lives to it. Could humans not try this first or consider trying it, without bringing out the arms and barricades?

 

 

Well considering that during hibernation animals also don't eat, urinate or poop for months on end, I don't think hibernation is an option for me. :D

[mirth]

This is why women have historically fared better in times of famine than men - we have more fat.

 

But the problem with this approach (intentionally gaining weight) is that you are betting your life that there WILL be a famine. If the famine starts next year and you have intentionally put on an extra 40 pounds in that year - great - you are better off than your skinny neighbor. But if the hoped-for event (famine) doesn't come for many years, and you have been accumulating and carrying around a lot of extra weight during that time - then your skinny neighbor comes out ahead because you are dead from heart disease, diabetes, cancer, etc. Famine is the least of your worries.

 

Right, which was why I was curious about personal triggers. When would a survival minded person resort to this, what set of things would have to happen?

[Audrey]

I have been a habitue of homesteading and frugal forums for years and never once have I seen anyone say their emergency plan was to go to the country and live as a begging squatter or mooch off their relatives.

 

Who exactly are you talking to with this tone? Has someone in this thread said that they would have the slightest notion of behaving like this?

 

 

KateMary is justified in what she said. Several people in this thread alone (and there are many other threads similar to this just here on this board) said things akin to "can I come live with you?" to posters on farms.

 

I agree with KateMary that it's really not funny, clever or cute. It makes us feel uncomfortable because we're wondering how far our polite, "no" is going to be pushed. No one wants a nasty confrontation, but just because someone has land and the means to be self-sufficient doesn't mean that they're willing or able to support anyone else.

 

What she's saying is that some people are assuming a heck of a lot in regard to being able to "get some land and be self sufficient." I completely agree that if you aren't invited, back the heck off.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

FWIW, those who I've already invited (you know who you are already) are still invited to the commune.

Edited February 19, 2011 by Audrey

[Gooblink]

Good grief. For all of you who need a place when the world goes to hell, you can follow me to my place in the north country. We'll figure it out together.

 

If Ma and Pa Ingalls can load up a covered wagon and scrape a living off the prairie then, for heaven's sake, why can't we? We've got brains, tools and more colorfully illustrated books than they had.

 

The day it comes down to my-life-or-yours to survive, I'll gladly let you have it.

 

:001_smile:

[Jane in NC]

Good grief. For all of you who need a place when the world goes to hell, you can follow me to my place in the north country. We'll figure it out together.

 

If Ma and Pa Ingalls can load up a covered wagon and scrape a living off the prairie then, for heaven's sake, why can't we? We've got brains, tools and more colorfully illustrated books than they had.

 

The day it comes down to my-life-or-yours to survive, I'll gladly let you have it.

 

:001_smile:

 

Precisely.

 

Sharon Astyk, author of Depletion and Abundance: Life on the New Home Front, has a list of categories that she suggests readers consider to improve life in the days ahead. No matter what future scenario you embrace (well, for many future scenarios), the list is sound.

 

Domestic Infrastructure - these are the realities of home life, including making your home work better with less, getting organized, dealing with domestic life, etc…

 

Household Economy: Financial goals, making ends meet, saving, barter etc…

 

Resource Consumption : in which we use less of stuff, and strive to live in a way that has an actual future.

 

Cottage Industry and Subsistence:: The things we do that prevent us from needing to buy things, and the things we produce that go out into the world and provide for others. Not everyone will do both, but it is worth encouraging.

 

Family and Community: Pretty much what it sounds like. How do we enable those to take the place of collapsing infrastructure?

 

Outside Work: Finding a balance, doing good work, serving the larger community as much as we can, within our need to make a living.

 

Time and Happiness: Those things without which there’s really no point.

 

Note the last one. :001_smile:

[....]

Good grief. For all of you who need a place when the world goes to hell, you can follow me to my place in the north country. We'll figure it out together.

 

If Ma and Pa Ingalls can load up a covered wagon and scrape a living off the prairie then, for heaven's sake, why can't we? We've got brains, tools and more colorfully illustrated books than they had.

 

The day it comes down to my-life-or-yours to survive, I'll gladly let you have it.

 

:001_smile:

 

 

 

:cheers2:

 

I don't need to come and live with you, but I like your attitude! :D

[....]

What she's saying is that some people are assuming a heck of a lot in regard to being able to "get some land and be self sufficient." I completely agree that if you aren't invited, back the heck off.

 

I didn't think you needed an invitation to purchase acreage. Honestly, a lot of it's for sale and not selling here.

 

Also, most of the people who carved communities out of the wilderness in America weren't backwoodsmen and farmers. They were librarians, bankers, teachers, surveyors, doctors, cooks, dentists, etc. Don't underestimate the importance of community.

 

Having acreage isn't going to make you self-sufficient. You're still very dependent on community.