HAVES and HAVE-NOTS

[DawnM]

This is what I grew up with in Kenya. We had SO MUCH and many had beyond little.....they struggled to have maize or rice.

 

My dad always told me that the rich have choices, the poor have none. But he also impressed to me that we were blessed to be a blessing. He was a missionary surgeon (he is retired now) and my upbringing is a large part of why I chose to become a counselor in the inner-city for 16 years.

 

We certainly have more than 95% of the world here in the US. We are beyond privileged.

 

http://www.globalrichlist.com/ I think most of us will fall in the top 5% of the world's wealth.

 

Dawn

[KatieH]

Hmm. You know, we are poor, by American standards. I've always been working-class, I don't really think much about it most of the time. When I first started posting here, I saw someone make a comment about "typical lower class people." Which was that they are uneducated drug users who have too many children (which they, of course, neglect). Stings, but I try not to get bitter about things like that. I know that no matter how hard we might have it at times (and how other people judge us for it), we're living in extravagance compared to much of the world. I'm thankful for what we have, and it breaks my heart to think about how many people are hurting around the world, and we give as much as we're able to help those people. Anytime I feel down about our situation in life, I think of all the mothers around the world who watch their children suffer from disease, hunger, etc, and I feel ashamed and humbled. I have it SO good.

 

You can choose to feel guilty and embarrassed, or you can be thankful for your good fortune and use it to help as many others as possible.

 

I agree with this, totally! It sounds like you're already doing a pretty good job in that department.

[Tea Time]

According to one of dh's sociology classes, that isn't necessarily true here, either. Most of us tend to stay in the class we were born into... or descend.

 

Weird. According to the economics books I have been studying this is inaccurate. America is highly upwardly mobile with very few people remaining, indefinitely, in the class they were born into; moreover, the economics book explained how the other view can be read into the statistics but still be inaccurate. I won't attempt to explain it, however. It was enough for me just to follow it as I read it. :D

 

So which is it? That is not at all something that is subjective. We are either getting the facts or we are not. It certainly gives you a certain attitude about your country and your economy if you believe what the sociology prof is saying. But is is TRUE?

 

Not being snarky. I am neither an economist or a sociology prof, but I have read a lot from both disciplines and have far more respect for economics which is not concerned with the social and political implications and is empirically driven. That is JMHO.

[Vida Winter]

According to one of dh's sociology classes, that isn't necessarily true here, either. Most of us tend to stay in the class we were born into... or descend.

 

Some descend...others ascend. Some stay where they are. But in reality, depending on what phase of life one is in, you move around. Being a child, going to college, the earning years, the child-bearing years, retirement years -- things can change quite a bit, and usually do.

[kokotg]

Weird. According to the economics books I have been studying this is inaccurate. America is highly upwardly mobile with very few people remaining, indefinitely, in the class they were born into; moreover, the economics book explained how the other view can be read into the statistics but still be inaccurate. I won't attempt to explain it, however. It was enough for me just to follow it as I read it. :D

 

So which is it? That is not at all something that is subjective. We are either getting the facts or we are not. It certainly gives you a certain attitude about your country and your economy if you believe what the sociology prof is saying. But is is TRUE?

 

Not being snarky. I am neither an economist or a sociology prof, but I have read a lot from both disciplines and have far more respect for economics which is not concerned with the social and political implications and is empirically driven. That is JMHO.

 

Here's an article from The Economist on the decline of social mobility in America:

 

http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560

 

a small sample:

 

Take the study carried out by Thomas Hertz, an economist at American University in Washington, DC, who studied a representative sample of 6,273 American families (both black and white) over 32 years or two generations. He found that 42% of those born into the poorest fifth ended up where they started—at the bottom. Another 24% moved up slightly to the next-to-bottom group. Only 6% made it to the top fifth. Upward mobility was particularly low for black families. On the other hand, 37% of those born into the top fifth remained there, whereas barely 7% of those born into the top 20% ended up in the bottom fifth. A person born into the top fifth is over five times as likely to end up at the top as a person born into the bottom fifth.

[Tea Time]

Some descend...others ascend. Some stay where they are. But in reality, depending on what phase of life one is in, you move around. Being a child, going to college, the earning years, the child-bearing years, retirement years -- things can change quite a bit, and usually do.

Yes, this is a huge part of the issue.

 

Here's an article from The Economist on the decline of social mobility in America:

 

http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560

 

a small sample:

Take the study carried out by Thomas Hertz, an economist at American University in Washington, DC, who studied a representative sample of 6,273 American families (both black and white) over 32 years or two generations. He found that 42% of those born into the poorest fifth ended up where they started—at the bottom. Another 24% moved up slightly to the next-to-bottom group. Only 6% made it to the top fifth. Upward mobility was particularly low for black families. On the other hand, 37% of those born into the top fifth remained there, whereas barely 7% of those born into the top 20% ended up in the bottom fifth. A person born into the top fifth is over five times as likely to end up at the top as a person born into the bottom fifth.

 

Well, the problem is that the study is not given very much detail, and like I said, it can be reported to support an inaccurate view. It does not give any details as to how the groups are determined statistically, it does not represent how "families" are defined or how those definitions change over time. It also ignores the huge issue of "standard of living," meaning that the standard of living has increased across the board for all classes which suggests that as the rich get richer the poor often benefit, too. (We all ride the coattails of the successful to some extent.) Even though the groups can often be described as "the top 5th" this doesn't always mean what it sounds like it means when you look at it closer. Often the transfer of economic resources from the top to the bottom (through entitlements) are not even included in the statistical measures.

 

Upon closer inspection you just don't know what you are reading, sorry to say. Note this:

 

Not all social scientists accept the conclusion that mobility is declining. Gary Solon, of the University of Michigan, argues that there is no evidence of any change in social-mobility rates, down or up.

 

The article completely skips this viewpoint except to note it exists. Why doesn't every social scientist and statistician agree? The picture is not that clear, that is why, but it would take a book to explain why, not a sound bite. It is hard, boring, and difficult to follow statistics on this stuff, and the conclusions are complex so as to be very unsatisfying to those looking to draw simplistic answers. It doesn't foment class warfare and has little or no political juice to make it worth the effort.

 

It is not unreasonable to think that privileged people are more likely to remain privileged, the bigger question is whether or not these inequities require fixing by social justice methods or even if such proposed fixing has ever or will ever work to accomplished the promised goals. The article seems to me to support the notion that the farther we go along in our efforts to maintain social mobility by way of social programs (in the last decades) the worse the problems become compared to how it was early in our nations development when such programs did not exist. Are the purported "solutions" to class inequality working? Have they ever worked?

 

If social mobility is declining, I submit it has done so in equal measure to the growth of government and of government programs, especially programs designed to help the less privileged.

[MSNative]

Here's an article from The Economist on the decline of social mobility in America:

 

http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560

 

a small sample: Take the study carried out by Thomas Hertz, an economist at American University in Washington, DC, who studied a representative sample of 6,273 American families (both black and white) over 32 years or two generations. He found that 42% of those born into the poorest fifth ended up where they started—at the bottom. Another 24% moved up slightly to the next-to-bottom group. Only 6% made it to the top fifth. Upward mobility was particularly low for black families. On the other hand, 37% of those born into the top fifth remained there, whereas barely 7% of those born into the top 20% ended up in the bottom fifth. A person born into the top fifth is over five times as likely to end up at the top as a person born into the bottom fifth.

 

Here's another study about class mobility that presents an opposing view (though they use similar data - 42% stay in the lowest group, 58% move higher):

 

"A recent U.S. Treasury study of income tax returns from 1996 and 2005. The study tracks what happened to tax filers 25 years of age and up during this 10-year period. Controlling for inflation, nearly 58 percent of the poorest income group in 1996 moved to a higher income group by 2005. Twenty-six percent of them achieved middle or upper-middle class income, and over 5 percent made it into the highest income group. Over the decade, the inflation-adjusted median income of all tax filers rose by 24 percent"

 

As PP said, data can be presented and massaged to try to prove one side or the other. Neither of these studies tells us much about what causes the 58% to get out and the 42% to stay in the lowest group. Are there institutional barriers? Warped incentives? Societal barriers? Individual choices? Luck? If there are institutional barriers, we need to figure out what they are and why 58% of people can break through. If it is because of poor individual choices, then we can discuss what can be done, if anything, to encourage people to make better decisions. (And so on and so on with all the other possible reasons.)

 

Interestingly, the median income of all filers rose by 24% which I think is positive.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

 

Originally Posted by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

Heather-

 

Also, I tried to point out earlier, she is your employee. Let her have some pride in that rather than becoming your charity case as well. Doubling her salary to compensate for the loss of her husband's wages is just charity disguised as employment. Other local employees won't see the charity aspect. No. I doubled her salary when I doubled her work load. It seemed fair to me. And considering that a large number of expats get ahmas who do NOT do a good job or do the bare minimum, I am VERY grateful to have someone who not only does a good job but also LOVES my daughter like her own. I have several co-workers whose ahmas are mean to their kids or indifferent towards them. I appreciate really good help and I am willing to compensate accordingly to KEEP that good help.

 

I am not saying that other expats don't care about their house help. I never implied anything. You are reading things into my words. I am merely sharing MY heart for the situation I suddenly find myself in. Maybe I pay my ahma too much. I don't regret it. If the extra salary I give her helps her daughter go to school to get a better life then it is worth it. Yes, I said "better"... I have had long, personal conversations with my ahma and while she does a fabulous job she would much rather be something else than an ahma and so would most other ahmas...they just don't have a choice. Prima is in her fifties but it is not too late for her daughter to break the cycle of poverty. That does not make it a "charity" case.

 

To quote John Piper, "Money is given to you so that you would use money in a way that shows money is NOT your treasure...Christ is." That is what I am aiming for with this situation I have found myself in.

 

 

If this discussion has made you decide that you are happy with all you have done and are giving to those around you then fine-you are helping as you originally stated you wished.

 

But you have also repeatedly questioned the actions of those other expats around you. Current and former expats here have tried to explain from their personal experience what might be happening and how what seems like a positive situation could turn into a negative situation.

 

They are not necessarily hard hearted or cruel as your defenses above would make it seem them to be by comparison. It is wonderful that employment is helping you ahma improve life for her family. That is some of the good that employment with an expat family can bring. I am just saying that it is important to remember the difference between being an employer and running a charity. The two are not the same. You need to understand the impact that you as an employer have on the local economy.

 

I am not arguing against charity, charity is a wonderful act of kindness and can help others beyond measure. It is even, perhaps, a moral obligation of the more fortunate.

 

But, you wanted to know why expats behave the way they do and why they "were MAD at me" or wouldn't offer extra aid to their staff. Many here have tried to explain from the perspective of a variety of cultures around the world. You are still somewhat new in the world of the expat and some of the folks here have the years and variety of experience to be the experts. If you don't want to hear the answers don't ask the questions.

Edited February 4, 2011 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[laughing lioness]

As always, Heather, the threads that you start get me to thinking and I've been thinking a lot about this thread.

 

I've been looking at the book UnChristian by Gabe Lyons and the web-site Q and have been especially struck by this sentence: Christians aren't called to be relevant (I am so relieved!), they are called to be counter-cultural. Which is what you are doing/struggling with. Otherwise you would be doing what every other expat there is doing (and feeling fine with that).

 

If you stay comfortable will you be living the Gospel? If you do something radical (counter cultural) will you cause discomfort, upset and frustration?

[Lisa in Jax]

This thread has been very humbling...

 

Actually, I find the follow-ups (not Heather's OP), rather sad.

 

I was born in America because my great-grandparents and great-great-grandparents (one of whom was a foster child born to an unwed mother) worked hard to make enough money to buy a ticket for a 6-week trip from hell in steerage across the Atlantic 100-150 years ago.

 

I'm not naive to the realities of third-world poverty -- my son spent the first four years of his life in a slum in India. I've seen real, desperate poverty, and it saddens me. It does *not* make me feel guilty or make me believe that I am "lucky" to have been born in America. I'm here because my ancestors worked hard and made their lives (and their descendants' lives) better. It wasn't just "luck."

 

Lisa :: Donning flame retardant suit::

 

P.S. Please note that I am not implying that those who live in back-breaking poverty in third-world countries are not as hard working as my ancestors. I'm not saying that at all -- I'm only saying that I find it mildly offensive to read replies to Heather's post saying that Americans should feel guilty b/c they're "lucky" by birth. LUCK has little to do with it, in my opinion, and is a very simplistic explanation.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

As always, Heather, the threads that you start get me to thinking and I've been thinking a lot about this thread.

 

I've been looking at the book UnChristian by Gabe Lyons and the web-site Q and have been especially struck by this sentence: Christians aren't called to be relevant (I am so relieved!), they are called to be counter-cultural. Which is what you are doing/struggling with. Otherwise you would be doing what every other expat there is doing (and feeling fine with that).

 

If you stay comfortable will you be living the Gospel? If you do something radical (counter cultural) will you cause discomfort, upset and frustration?

 

Are you implying that the expats and former expats, myself included, who have been posting on this thread are somehow un-Christian because they pay a locally accepted salary to their household staff and other employees? What salary they pay bears no relation to other methods they may use to share their wealth and benefit with others less fortunate. For example--which is the more Christian act-to pay one employee double the going rate or to hire 2 people?

[laughing lioness]

Are you implying that the expats and former expats, myself included, who have been posting on this thread are somehow un-Christian because they pay a locally accepted salary to their household staff and other employees? What salary they pay bears no relation to other methods they may use to share their wealth and benefit with others less fortunate. For example--which is the more Christian act-to pay one employee double the going rate or to hire 2 people?

 

Not at all.

[Haiku]

I'm here because my ancestors worked hard and made their lives (and their descendants' lives) better. It wasn't just "luck."

 

 

It is luck that they happened to be your ancestors. You can't claim any credit for whatever hard work that these people that came before you may have done. It was handed to you through no effort whatsoever on your part. Basically, you just happened to be born in the right place at the right time. You didn't earn any of it. You needn't feel guilty about it if you don't want to, but do recognize that your good fortune to be born in America has NOTHING to do with you and your individual merits. It's simply chance.

 

Tara

[justamouse]

To quote John Piper, "Money is given to you so that you would use money in a way that shows money is NOT your treasure...Christ is." That is what I am aiming for with this situation I have found myself in.

 

Word. It's just a tool. And I know that sounds--snotty to say it that way, *just* a tool, but when you get to the point of understanding that as a truth, it shifts your paradigm and things around you start to change.

[Snowfall]

but, well, you are over-privileged. You might as well have been borne into their neighbourhood (but you weren't).

 

:iagree:

 

You did work hard and earn everything you have. BUT does that local person work any less hard? If you had been born there, would you have had the opportunities that you had as an American?

 

This idea we have of "earning" things really disturbs me. Few of us EARNED a good life. We were lucky enough to be born in a place where achieving that was possible.

 

I think a lot is just handed to us in this country and that isn't true elsewhere. Sure, you still need some skin in the game to have a middle class life style in the US, but it is possible for most people to ascend to the middle class. I don't believe that is true everywhere.

 

Yup. That's why I think it's funny that we in the developed world are so sure we've earned everything we have through our hard work. If hard work actually earned people things, then there'd be no need to feel the way you do, OP. A good life comes from a fabulous combination of luck and hard work. Sometimes the hard work isn't even necessary (hello, Paris Hilton), but luck is ALWAYS necessary.

[Tea Time]

Yup. That's why I think it's funny that we in the developed world are so sure we've earned everything we have through our hard work. If hard work actually earned people things, then there'd be no need to feel the way you do, OP. A good life comes from a fabulous combination of luck and hard work. Sometimes the hard work isn't even necessary (hello, Paris Hilton), but luck is ALWAYS necessary.

 

Maybe.

 

But then I teach my children that the real value in hard work, or anything else that is valuable for that matter, doesn't always manifest in "material wealth or success.'' It is the value stored up in heaven and earned in your heart and soul that matter.

 

And that never rests in only luck. You have the power to chose it ALWAYS.

 

So there are plenty of people all over the world who posses the truest forms of wealth, success, and joy apart from their economic realities. Now, these truths, when lived out fully by a civilization do, however, tend to lend themselves to material wealth and success over time and from generation to generation. That type of generational wealth should never be discouraged or disdained by anyone.

 

And I am afraid too much of this perspective that you are not tied up in the decisions and choices of your ancestors (and therefore, by implication, you do not have anything to do with future generations) has a poisonous side. It discourages people in there here and now from taking risks and making sacrifices or difficult decisions because they become disconnected from the ones who come before and after. Why bother to balance a budget NOW if it will make us suffer but make things better for those two or three generations out? After all, we have nothing to do with those that come before and after, at least this attitude seems to say. If we can feel no pride in our ancestors, if we cannot say that our good fortune is the result of their hard work and we deserve it because they intended us to have it, then we can also feel little concern for our descendants. This affects our incentives in the here and now. I think it is problematic.

 

So I think we must feel pride in our ancestor's good choices, and we must feel obligated to make good choices ourselves. We need to feel gratitude, not smugness, but also not indifference. But to feel nothing and to assign our good fortune to luck and then feel guilty about it is a dangerous business.

[tex-mex]

It is luck that they happened to be your ancestors. You can't claim any credit for whatever hard work that these people that came before you may have done. It was handed to you through no effort whatsoever on your part. Basically, you just happened to be born in the right place at the right time. You didn't earn any of it. You needn't feel guilty about it if you don't want to, but do recognize that your good fortune to be born in America has NOTHING to do with you and your individual merits. It's simply chance.

 

Tara

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

It is luck that they happened to be your ancestors. You can't claim any credit for whatever hard work that these people that came before you may have done. It was handed to you through no effort whatsoever on your part. Basically, you just happened to be born in the right place at the right time. You didn't earn any of it. You needn't feel guilty about it if you don't want to, but do recognize that your good fortune to be born in America has NOTHING to do with you and your individual merits. It's simply chance.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:

[Scarlett]

P.S. Please note that I am not implying that those who live in back-breaking poverty in third-world countries are not as hard working as my ancestors. I'm not saying that at all -- I'm only saying that I find it mildly offensive to read replies to Heather's post saying that Americans should feel guilty b/c they're "lucky" by birth. LUCK has little to do with it, in my opinion, and is a very simplistic explanation.

 

I don't believe anyone should feel 'guilty' b/c of the circumstances they were born into. However, it is still luck. If your ancestors had NOT worked hard and bought that ticket you would have been born elsewhere. You had nothing to do with that outworking.

 

Some of those people in third world counties will never get out of destitution and povery regardless of how hard they try.

[KathyBC]

Instead of luck then, how about 1 Chronicles 29:14?

[Heather in Neverland]

These conversations make my head spin b/c so much info is added after the original posts.

 

.

 

Well I didn't originally offer up every detail of my ahma's employment situation because I didn't realize this thread would end being so specifically about her. It wasn't supposed to be. It was really just the ramblings of a girl from a blue collar family who has never been better off or worse off than anyone else around her suddenly thrust into a situation where she is the HAVE and she is living with and loving people that are the HAVE-NOTS and that has made her both uncomfortable and motivated to do something at the same time.

 

What will she do with this crazy new life? Stay tuned....

[Heather in Neverland]

Word. It's just a tool. And I know that sounds--snotty to say it that way, *just* a tool, but when you get to the point of understanding that as a truth, it shifts your paradigm and things around you start to change.

 

Wow. Does it ever! My carefully stacked applecart is in shambles....

[pqr]

It wasn't supposed to be. It was really just the ramblings of a girl from a blue collar family who has never been better off or worse off than anyone else around her suddenly thrust into a situation where she is the HAVE and she is living with and loving people that are the HAVE-NOTS and that has made her both uncomfortable and motivated to do something at the same time.

...and this is understandable, the expatriate lifestyle is full of wonder, fun and sadness. There is both good and bad, anyone who has lived it knows this.

 

 

The problem arose when you made mistakes, were called on them by other expatriates, and then posted comments here that smacked of "look how kind I am when surrounded by other unfeeling wealthy expatriates. Look at me."

 

Ugh. I forgot about that one too... We actually pay her twice as much as most ahmas make and several people were MAD at us for it! Like if other ahmas find out what she makes then they will want more money too. I am serious... people were genuinely mad at us.

The fact is that the expatriate lifestyle is complex and takes a while to learn. If those who were angry at you have more time overseas then you, perhaps it is because they know that you were sowing discord.

 

The truth is that you are a novice when it comes to living the expatriate life, yet you came across as being both defensive and arrogant (I know that I too come across as arrogant, but I have 20+ years living in nations other than my own so perhaps one might excuse a touch of arrogance on this issue). Newcomers with big ideas do not always succeed.

 

Further, had you been my neighbor, I would have been angry, not only because you would have caused discord but because if you could pay double the wage to your "ahma" (amah or ayah are the more colloquial spellings) then you could have offered another person a job. What you did was deny another family an income...think about that for a second. In an attempt to, potentially, demonstrate your genuine kindness and your honest compassion you doubled the wages of one at the cost of a job for another.

[Heather in Neverland]

Wow. You really just cannot let this go, can you?

The problem arose when you made mistakes, were called on them by other expatriates, and then posted comments here that smacked of "look how kind I am when surrounded by other unfeeling wealthy expatriates. Look at me." Um, well, I guess we will just have to disagree because I don't think I made a mistake and if I had to do it over I would do it exactly the same way. And BTW, I was never denigrating any other expats. A question was asked of me... if I was paying my ahma a good wage and I responded. Me thinks you doth protest too much...

 

The truth is that you are a novice when it comes to living the expatriate life, Absolutely! yet you came across as being both defensive and arrogant (I know that I too come across as arrogant, yes you do in pretty much every post but I have 20+ years living in nations other than my own so perhaps one might excuse a touch of arrogance on this issue). Newcomers with big ideas do not always succeed. I'll try to remember that. Scary.

 

Further, had you been my neighbor, I would have been angry, not only because you would have caused discord but because if you could pay double the wage to your "ahma" (amah or ayah are the more colloquial spellings) then you could have offered another person a job. What you did was deny another family an income...think about that for a second. In an attempt to, potentially, demonstrate your genuine kindness and your honest compassion you doubled the wages of one at the cost of a job for another. Well I guess it just doesn't work out, you know, trying to be compassionate and what-not because if you are not perfect at it then someone is going to jump all over you about it. Here are few realities for you:

 

a. I am not required to employ any certain number of people so to say I "cost" someone a job is poor logic.

 

b. I will employ whom I want and I will pay them what I feel they deserve and what I pay them is NO ONE'S business. It's my money and I will do whatever I want with it. And if I want to give my entire paycheck to my ahma then it is no one's business but mine. I have never and would never ask another person what they pay their employees. It is rude. And I think it was rude that these other people asked me in the first place.

 

c. proper colloquial spellings? And I am the one who is arrogant? For YOUR information there are as many colloquial spellings for a variety of words in Malaysia as there are Malaysians. They can't even agree on how to spell the name of the city in which I live. I know exactly how to spell ahma.

 

d. I have been paying my AHMA this salary since we got our daughter over a year ago and guess what? Amazingly enough there have been NO village uprisings or beatings or ahma revolts! So either my ahma keeps quiet about her salary or perhaps...just perhaps...you are overstating your case...or perhaps things are just a bit more civil among Penang ahmas.

 

e. As to "proper" salary for an ahma here...I have discovered that it's relative. I have found in the last year that it is entirely dependent on the race of the employer and the race of the employee. Those here that told me I was paying her too much are of a different race than I am and so are their ahmas. Mystery solved. And both the employers and the employees know this which explains why certain races all have ahmas of a certain race and others likewise.

 

Now I realize there is not one thing that I can say to convince you that you may have overgeneralized and hyper-focused on one small aspect of what was originally a more broad topic. And I know that you know everything about expat lifestyle and I know nothing apparently, so you win. I am a terrible person who has denied some fictional family their income and totally upset the delicate economic balance with my thoughtless and cruel act of paying my ahma too much. My very own butterfly effect.

 

You win. Can you possibly let it go now? sheesh...

.

[pqr]

Of course I can let it go.

 

Nobody said you were a terrible person, in fact I stated that you are genuinely kind and honestly compassionate.

 

The point was that you raised an issue on a discussion board and seem outraged when someone (actually just about everyone who has lived as an expatriate) tells you that you are wrong.

 

Yes you may pay what you like, but do not expect others to agree with your mistakes nor to remain silent when you pontificate about how when you made payments that were out of balance and "several people were MAD at us for it!"...in other words "What is wrong with them?"....that is arrogance.

 

I wish you well and the longer you spend overseas the more likely it is that you will come to see that your friends and neighbors actually have a point.

Edited February 5, 2011 by pqr

[Elaine]

Of course I can let it go.

 

Nobody said you were a terrible person, in fact I stated that you are genuinely kind and honestly compassionate.

 

The point was that you raised an issue on a discussion board and seem outraged when someone (actually just about everyone who has lived as an expatriate) tells you that you are wrong.

 

Yes you may pay what you like, but do not expect others to agree with your mistakes nor to remain silent when you pontificate about how when you made payments that were out of balance and "several people were MAD at us for it!"...in other words "What is wrong with them?"....that is arrogance.

 

I wish you well and the longer you spend overseas the more likely it is that you will come to see that your friends and neighbors actually have a point.

 

:iagree: Having lived overseas for only 7 months, I heeded the same advice that many here have given.

[Laura Corin]

We paid our ayi in China at the top of the local pay scale but also sought culturally-sensitive ways of helping out. For example, we had already left the country when she got married, so we didn't give her the traditional cash present. When we went to visit later, she was pregnant and worrying about the cost of giving birth, so we gave her a large belated wedding present which covered the cost of the hospital and doctors.

 

Laura

Edited February 5, 2011 by Laura Corin

[Liz CA]

Good points here. Just wanted to say, you are seeing first hand - in front of your very eyes what real poverty is like. I also agree with Katemary that God would not want you to feel guilty because He chose for you to be born in a "rich" country, have access to education and therefore have a higher income potential. It was not your choice to be a "privileged" American, it was His. Now he is giving you a chance to help others for whom (for whatever reason) He chose a different set of circumstances.

 

Some poster have also pointed out that material goods are not always a sign of happiness. Your ahma invited you for Christmas to her house? Had she been ashamed of her place, she probably would not have. She may not even see as much of an issue here as you do.

 

If she wants to learn how to read, teach her! I cannot imagine a better gift than literacy!

[Nakia]

Heather,

Can I just say I love you? You can't seem to win on this board, and I do not get it. Hang in there. You a beautiful daughter of the King, and it's a wonderful thing to see what your family is doing in this world. :grouphug:

[tex-mex]

I don't believe anyone should feel 'guilty' b/c of the circumstances they were born into. However, it is still luck. If your ancestors had NOT worked hard and bought that ticket you would have been born elsewhere. You had nothing to do with that outworking.

 

Some of those people in third world counties will never get out of destitution and povery regardless of how hard they try.

 

I agree. Nicely stated.

 

I really don't think anyone here is disliking Heather at all. I think Heather is experiencing what most of us who lived overseas experienced. Our paradigm gets shifted, kwim? And for me, it opened up an awareness of how unjust and poor the rest of the world lives. It does question your background and "luck" (tho' I call it something else) in life. God many times does not make sense. Where is the justice? (But that is a whole different thread...)

 

The one point many have made as expatriates (as a nugget of wisdom) to Heather is quite valuable. How she decides to use that wisdom with the remaining time she has overseas is up to her. In time, she will look back on her experience and hopefully be able to help a new expatriate down the road. I don't quite agree with her attitude (but Heather usually comes across that way...) when some have offered advice. To call her arrogant? Hmmmm. No. But I know I come across that way in posts too. (I am very opinionated. ;)) Heck, I would not throw a stick with the proverbial log in my own eye. LOL :D Hang in there, Heather.

[Deb in NZ]

Many here have tried to explain from the perspective of a variety of cultures around the world. You are still somewhat new in the world of the expat and some of the folks here have the years and variety of experience to be the experts. QUOTE]

 

I've found it interesting in this thread to read that all posters who have lived as ex-pats are saying the same thing. I only have 7 year experience in only two 3rd world countries (I'm not counting the 14 years spent living in NZ as this is dh's home country & I am not an ex-pat as I have moved here), but my dh lived 26 years in many 3rd world countries. When I told him about this thread he echoed what others with ex-pat experience have said.

 

It's hard to see poverty first hand that most Americans only see on TV or in movies. Before you get upset, ask youself "How does it make me feel when I pass a bus stop in NC on a wet, winter evening & see people waiting for the bus home?" Do you feel guilty that you are driving home, warm & dry in your car? Do you feel moved to make a difference in their lives? Do you even see them? It's easy to see the poverty when we are outside our home culture, but not in our own backyards. I grew up in a middle class family in Vermont. We didn't have a lot of extras, but we did have enough. My first teaching job after university took me to the Northeast Kingdom of Vermont. I was confronted with poverty for the first time in my life. I was very embarrassed to realize that for 22 years I had no idea that people still lived in VT without electricity, that kids went to school dirty & without breakfast or lunch (this school did not have a meal program for some reason), that some families did not have the money to get their kids winter jackets, that there were illiterate adults in VT who were not immigrants. This was in the late 80s, so it wasn't that long ago. By reading your posts, it sounds like you are not looking at living permantly overseas as an ex-pat. It would be a good time to begin thinking about how you plan to use what the Lord is teaching you now when you return home. Will you continue to write checks to support the needy in 3rd world countries? Will you look at how you can use what you've learned for people who live in 3rd world conditions in your own backyard?

[Sophia]

"I've found it interesting in this thread to read that all posters who have lived as ex-pats are saying the same thing. I only have 7 year experience in only two 3rd world countries (I'm not counting the 14 years spent living in NZ as this is dh's home country & I am not an ex-pat as I have moved here), but my dh lived 26 years in many 3rd world countries. When I told him about this thread he echoed what others with ex-pat experience have said."

 

It seems we have experienced ex-pats in agreement on certain customs, while the newbie ex-pat is defensive and convinced she's doing the right thing.

Didn't we just also have a thread where experienced homeschoolers with older dc cautioned a newer homeschooler against judging other homeschooler's methods?

It's just human nature, I guess, for the inexperienced to chafe against wisdom.

 

It's hard to see poverty first hand that most Americans only see on TV or in movies. Before you get upset, ask youself "How does it make me feel when I pass a bus stop in NC on a wet, winter evening & see people waiting for the bus home?" Do you feel guilty that you are driving home, warm & dry in your car? Do you feel moved to make a difference in their lives? Do you even see them? It's easy to see the poverty when we are outside our home culture, but not in our own backyards.

 

Excellent point! Good reminder for all of us!

 

uh-oh...quotes from Deb in NZ

[Heather in Neverland]

Heather,

Can I just say I love you? You can't seem to win on this board, and I do not get it. Hang in there. You a beautiful daughter of the King, and it's a wonderful thing to see what your family is doing in this world. :grouphug:

 

Awww, Nakia. I love you too. No worries. I have very thick skin and I learned a long time ago that this is all just pretend. It's not real life. I don't lose sleep over posts on this board.

 

There were so many great replies to this thread by people who actually got the point of it and it has given me lots to think about and others too. It's funny to me that I get lambasted for not "heeding advice" when I never actually asked anyone on here "what do you all think I should pay my ahma?" And yet I receive all kinds of unsolicited opinions on it and then I am arrogant for not following those unsolicited opinions. :lol: Ah, such is life on the boards. The point of the thread was so much larger than that one tiny issue and so I just sift through it all and take the pearls with me and leave the rest.

 

Yes I am opinonated and I do a lot of things people say "can't" be done or "shouldn't" be done that way and I will continue to do what God shows me is the right thing to do even if it upsets some people. I only have to answer for my own actions and I can live with that. ;)

 

But Nakia if you EVER get a chance to come to Malaysia will you PLEASE photograph my children? Your pics are amazing. In fact, I think you could do a whole collection of "faces" photography here. There are so many interesting faces...so diverse. But I suppose that's another topic....

[Nakia]

Awww, Nakia. I love you too. No worries. I have very thick skin and I learned a long time ago that this is all just pretend. It's not real life. I don't lose sleep over posts on this board.

 

There were so many great replies to this thread by people who actually got the point of it and it has given me lots to think about and others too. It's funny to me that I get lambasted for not "heeding advice" when I never actually asked anyone on here "what do you all think I should pay my ahma?" And yet I receive all kinds of unsolicited opinions on it and then I am arrogant for not following those unsolicited opinions. :lol: Ah, such is life on the boards. The point of the thread was so much larger than that one tiny issue and so I just sift through it all and take the pearls with me and leave the rest.

 

Yes I am opinonated and I do a lot of things people say "can't" be done or "shouldn't" be done that way and I will continue to do what God shows me is the right thing to do even if it upsets some people. I only have to answer for my own actions and I can live with that. ;)

 

But Nakia if you EVER get a chance to come to Malaysia will you PLEASE photograph my children? Your pics are amazing. In fact, I think you could do a whole collection of "faces" photography here. There are so many interesting faces...so diverse. But I suppose that's another topic....

 

I want to have a thick skin when I grow u, lol! I'm proud of you. And I keep thinking to myself that just because something has always been done a certain way doesn't mean it has to stay that way. Does that make sense? You are making a difference in your ahma's family. A difference that could change generations. What a blessing for you and her!!! Just imagine: "Well done, good and faithful servant!"

 

I would love to come to Malaysia and photograph your children!!! I doubt it will happen, but I can dream. I would love to hang out at the school and do pics all day. Wow...

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Awww, Nakia. I love you too. No worries. I have very thick skin and I learned a long time ago that this is all just pretend. It's not real life. I don't lose sleep over posts on this board.

 

There were so many great replies to this thread by people who actually got the point of it and it has given me lots to think about and others too. It's funny to me that I get lambasted for not "heeding advice" when I never actually asked anyone on here "what do you all think I should pay my ahma?" And yet I receive all kinds of unsolicited opinions on it and then I am arrogant for not following those unsolicited opinions. :lol: Ah, such is life on the boards. The point of the thread was so much larger than that one tiny issue and so I just sift through it all and take the pearls with me and leave the rest.

 

Yes I am opinonated and I do a lot of things people say "can't" be done or "shouldn't" be done that way and I will continue to do what God shows me is the right thing to do even if it upsets some people. I only have to answer for my own actions and I can live with that. ;)

 

 

 

Funny-your OP was chuck full of questions. The advice you received was derived from your own posts about your life there. Plenty of those current/former expats who have been posting here have been discussing what they have learned through their collective experience of how the expat can affect the local economy and how employment and charity are not the same thing. You act as though the expats here and those you live with there are cruel, hard hearted, unfeeling people who are blinded to their own prosperity and too greedy to care about those around them. When the truth is that many who have posted here are involved in charitable activities both in the US and abroad. Do you think everyone here is just blind to the advantages we have in the US and the plight of those less fortunate than ourselves that we are surrounded by? I think not. We're just not singing the praises of our own generosity. Our hearts have also been broken by what we have witnessed. We are trying to help you adjust to the life of relative privilege that you claim not to know how to handle in the OP. Sharing the benefit of our life experience isn't being done to humiliate you it is being done to help-as you seemed to request. So if finding the "pearls" means hearing what you want to hear and recieving support for being so generous fine-then continue considering the rest of the "swine" who are missing the point as you seem to imply. So much for our good deed of trying to help you adjust--as you requested.

The same goes for our ahma. She is here 5 days a week. She knows everything about our family and has a pretty good idea of our finances. She invited us over for christmas eve and I was so humbled by it. She lives in this tiny little ghetto apartment with her husband, mother and two teenage daughters. And I find myself wondering what she thinks of us?

 

WHY do I feel this way? I have worked hard, gone to college. I have three degrees. I have worked my way up the ladder. Dh can say the same. I have earned everything that I have. Nothing has EVER been handed to me.

 

So why am I embarassed of my success?

 

Why does it embarass me to have so much when others I know and care about have so little?

 

Why do I worry so much that these people must think us expats are all just... over privileged?

 

Why does my heart hurt so much?

Edited February 6, 2011 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[In2why]

I am interested to read the responses you get because this can be a real can of worms.

 

But for myself I think it can be summed up almost like survival guilt.

 

Right now a lot of people are being layed off and some are losing everything. For those that still have their jobs and feel security either based on good luck or planning it can feel almost bad to see others who aren't as fortunate. I know DH actually became physically ill a few years ago when some of his friends were layed off and he wasn't. Yet at the same time he was of course glad it wasn't him, and then felt bad for feeling that way. A bad cycle to be in emotionally. There can also be hurt feelings. One of the wives made a comment to me that we were lucky that DH was a black man because he got to keep his job. Never mind the fact that at the time he had worked there for 23 years, had 2 degrees, and the company had recently spent thousands of dollars sending him to Europe to learn a new machine so that he could teach others and didn't want to lose that investment....it must be affirmative action. :001_huh: I being less than gracious wanted to ask her if maybe it had more to do with her husband having way to much to drink at the company Christmas party in front of management, but I bit my tongue knowing that she was hurting.

 

But anyways....there isn't anything wrong with enjoying your accomplishments. There have always been "have's and have not's". It has existed since the beginning of time, and will exist at the end of time. One thing that has helped me on all levels is to imagine everyone on a super highway instead of a ladder. Often we think of life as a ladder with some people above us and some people below. (not just financially, but in other ways too) But if you think of everyone on a highway instead you realize that sometimes people get to use the fast lane and others get caught up in traffic, but where people are on the highway can change at anytime. You might slow up, or they might surge ahead but we are all going to end up the same place. Other days you might be on a highway of joy where others are miles ahead and you are at a complete stop, and other days it might be the other way around. Another nice thing about thinking this way is that you realize there are many different highways and many ways to measure life. It might even surprise you to discover that some of the people who make much less money than your family feel sorry for you because you lack something they have in abundance. Sometimes we can be arrogant and believe that what we find most valuable is what others might as well.

[Heather in Neverland]

Funny-your OP was chuck full of questions. .

 

Yes it was...big, universal type questions...questions that are helping me form my new worldview... not silly "how much should I pay my ahma?" questions. And the "pearls" I took with me are those who answered the big universal questions about life and poverty, etc with big picture answers... answers that touched my heart and really made me think... not those who chose to focus on how much my ahma makes in a week.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Yes it was...big, universal type questions...questions that are helping me form my new worldview... not silly "how much should I pay my ahma?" questions. And the "pearls" I took with me are those who answered the big universal questions about life and poverty, etc with big picture answers... answers that touched my heart and really made me think... not those who chose to focus on how much my ahma makes in a week.

 

Focusing on your employee's pay scale was your choice when you chose to share that information along with your confusion about why other expats were angry with what you did. That serves as one example of how an expat can affect the finances of a local community. There are many others but that is the one you brought up.

 

Many people on this board chose to answer your big universal questions with how they handled the same situations YOU brought up when they were faced with the same dilemmas. They chose to share their experiences as expats in order to help you deal with the realities of daily life as an expat.

 

Somewhere in all your details of the discussion the fact that you only wanted philosophical answers to a philosophical question about the guilt of being more fortunate got lost. Instead you were given advice about real world coping skills to deal with that sort of emotion.

 

Rather than getting mad at all those who chose to share their experiences and getting so defensive perhaps you could have mentioned at some point that this was a "meaning of life" discussion rather than a "coping with life" discussion. In the meantime you've been awfully busy publicly lambasting those who are trying to keep you from recreating the real world mistakes they have made or seen made as you find a way of putting your philosophy into practical action. After all, if you can witness all that is around you and take no action then there is no point to the "big universal question" unless it is to assuage your own guilt. There are no answers to the "big question" that fit everyone but there are some answers about putting into practice the types of feelings you've been having and that is what many of us have been trying to help with. Sorry for skipping the philosophy to head straight to real life.

[simka2]

I am really really struggling with something lately. And I apologize in advance if this ends up incoherent.

 

 

So why am I embarassed of my success?

 

Why does it embarass me to have so much when others I know and care about have so little?

 

Why do I worry so much that these people must think us expats are all just... over privileged?

 

Why does my heart hurt so much?[/QUOTE]

When I read your original post I could "hear" the questioning...the confusion.

 

Focusing on your employee's pay scale was your choice when you chose to share that information along with your confusion about why other expats were angry with what you did. That serves as one example of how an expat can affect the finances of a local community. There are many others but that is the one you brought up.

 

Many people on this board chose to answer your big universal questions with how they handled the same situations YOU brought up when they were faced with the same dilemmas. They chose to share their experiences as expats in order to help you deal with the realities of daily life as an expat.

 

Somewhere in all your details of the discussion the fact that you only wanted philosophical answers to a philosophical question about the guilt of being more fortunate got lost. Instead you were given advice about real world coping skills to deal with that sort of emotion.

 

Rather than getting mad at all those who chose to share their experiences and getting so defensive perhaps you could have mentioned at some point that this was a "meaning of life" discussion rather than a "coping with life" discussion. In the meantime you've been awfully busy publicly lambasting those who are trying to keep you from recreating the real world mistakes they have made or seen made as you find a way of putting your philosophy into practical action. After all, if you can witness all that is around you and take no action then there is no point to the "big universal question" unless it is to assuage your own guilt. There are no answers to the "big question" that fit everyone but there are some answers about putting into practice the types of feelings you've been having and that is what many of us have been trying to help with. Sorry for skipping the philosophy to head straight to real life.

 

Wisdom has many faces. Your advice is sound and born out of experience. But there is also wisdom in understanding what someone is really asking and ready to hear. Sometimes just the "way" something is presented makes all the difference. From the very beginning this was a post about a woman's culture shock(1st), and then thru that lens... what she possibly could do to help(2nd). The decisions she had made regarding her Ahma were already done. Potential mistakes were already made.

 

It's my personal opinion that you and the other expats wisdom will be invaluable in the long run, but there also needs to be graciousness and the space for the individual to work it out. I do thank you for what you have shared. I have learned a lot.

[Sophia]

... if you can witness all that is around you and take no action then there is no point to the "big universal question" unless it is to assuage your own guilt. There are no answers to the "big question" that fit everyone but there are some answers about putting into practice the types of feelings you've been having and that is what many of us have been trying to help with. Sorry for skipping the philosophy to head straight to real life.

 

Words of wisdom here.

Wish more people would do the bolded part ;)

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

I am really really struggling with something lately. And I apologize in advance if this ends up incoherent.

 

 

So why am I embarassed of my success?

 

Why does it embarass me to have so much when others I know and care about have so little?

 

Why do I worry so much that these people must think us expats are all just... over privileged?

 

Why does my heart hurt so much?[/QUOTE]

When I read your original post I could "hear" the questioning...the confusion.

 

 

 

Wisdom has many faces. Your advice is sound and born out of experience. But there is also wisdom in understanding what someone is really asking and ready to hear. Sometimes just the "way" something is presented makes all the difference. From the very beginning this was a post about a woman's culture shock(1st), and then thru that lens... what she possibly could do to help(2nd). The decisions she had made regarding her Ahma were already done. Potential mistakes were already made.

 

It's my personal opinion that you and the other expats wisdom will be invaluable in the long run, but there also needs to be graciousness and the space for the individual to work it out. I do thank you for what you have shared. I have learned a lot.

 

 

For those of us who have been through this sort of experience we know that culture shock has many stages (much like those of grieving) and that to survive, enjoy life and be able to share your good fortune you need to get out of the cycle of questioning and get on with real life as soon as possible. Those who don't tend to suffer the most. Perhaps that is why a post such as this is read differently by those with expat experience. We cannot always answer the "big questions" to each-others' satisfaction but we can help others understand the realities of expat life.

Edited February 6, 2011 by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

[Deb in NZ]

I am really really struggling with something lately. And I apologize in advance if this ends up incoherent.

 

 

So why am I embarassed of my success?

Why does it embarass me to have so much when others I know and care about have so little? In America people are brought up to believe in equality & to many that means having the same quality of life. To be seen as being "better" than another person is embarassing to most Americans.

 

Why do I worry so much that these people must think us expats are all just... over privileged? You may be surprised to find that "these people" feel sorry for you, having to leave your extended family behind to move around the world to work. In many 3rd world countries family is everything, thus extended families living together. Gaining many fancy belongings (clothing, cars, fancy houses, things, etc.) is most likely not important to them. Having too many posessions creates problems. Think about the movement towards simple living in the States. If your ahma invited you to her home, she is not embarrassed about how she lives. She was wanting to share "her life" with you. Take it as a complement & accept her & her life as she is. What is "enough" varies from culture to culture, from person to person. There is no set list of things in the Bible or anywhere else of what a person has a right to expect out of life.

 

Why does my heart hurt so much?

We get physical pains when we physically grow quickly & we get emotional pains when our worldview is challenged in the way yours has been.

 

You are nearing the end of your first year overseas? In the first year many ex-pats are overwhelmed by the differences between the culure they are working/living in & their home culture. As you spend more time outside your home culture you will begin to see the similarities more & more. When this happens it will become more clear how & where you can make the changes you dream of.

 

Blessings,

[Heather in Neverland]

Focusing on your employee's pay scale was your choice when you chose to share that information along with your confusion about why other expats were angry with what you did. I shared the info only when it was asked of me. And what I was most confused about in regards to other expats anger is why it was any of their business in the first place and what right did they have to ask me?

 

Many people on this board chose to answer your big universal questions with how they handled the same situations YOU brought up when they were faced with the same dilemmas. They chose to share their experiences as expats in order to help you deal with the realities of daily life as an expat. I appreciate that they shared THEIR life experiences. That doesn't mean I have to do exactly what THEY did nor does it mean I am insensitive, arrogant, naive and a host of other things I was accused of for not doing exactly as they did. I just choose to handle the situation differently.

 

Somewhere in all your details of the discussion the fact that you only wanted philosophical answers to a philosophical question about the guilt of being more fortunate got lost. That is an understatment! My whole point to this thread as expressed in the OP (and in others since then) was the bigger picture... the BIG things I am learning about and learning to deal with as a result of this new life experience.

 

Instead you were given advice about real world coping skills to deal with that sort of emotion. But those aren't the ONLY ways of coping. I was given one set of advice about one specific thing that was not even the point and because I choose to not follow that advice I have been accused of all sorts of things. That is like a brand new homeschool mom asking about how to cope with the overwhelming feeling of ...say... "pressure" she feels as a new homeschool mom and then a bunch of people coming on and saying "well the cure for that is to use all A Beka products." Then if she chooses to NOT use A Beka she is accused of being naive, arrogant and refusing to follow the advice of veterans when really she just wanted some bigger picture encouragement to deal with the pressure.

 

Rather than getting mad at all those who chose to share their experiences and getting so defensive perhaps you could have mentioned at some point that this was a "meaning of life" discussion rather than a "coping with life" discussion. I did. In the meantime you've been awfully busy publicly lambasting those who are trying to keep you from recreating the real world mistakes they have made or seen made as you find a way of putting your philosophy into practical action. No I am irritated with those who are trying to force their opinions down my throat and calling me arrogant and naive for not taking their opinion. Especially when I NEVER asked how much to pay my ahma. After all, if you can witness all that is around you and take no action then there is no point to the "big universal question" unless it is to assuage your own guilt. There are no answers to the "big question" that fit everyone EXACTLY my point. but there are some answers about putting into practice the types of feelings you've been having and that is what many of us have been trying to help with. Well help doesn't typically involve name-calling. Sorry for skipping the philosophy to head straight to real life. Well, as a newbie expat, I need the philosophical foundation before heading straight to real-life tactics otherwise the "real-life" tactics are nothing but tactics and I am looking more towards a change in my heart that results in a change in my actions.

.

[Heather in Neverland]

We get physical pains when we physically grow quickly & we get emotional pains when our worldview is challenged in the way yours has been.

 

You are nearing the end of your first year overseas? In the first year many ex-pats are overwhelmed by the differences between the culure they are working/living in & their home culture. As you spend more time outside your home culture you will begin to see the similarities more & more. When this happens it will become more clear how & where you can make the changes you dream of.

 

Blessings,

 

You are so right. The first year was a blur of activity. Now half-way through my second year I am starting to really "see" things around me and it is challenging me in so many ways and it is difficult and exciting and heart-breaking and exhilirating all at the same time. I wouldn't trade this experience for the world and I know that I will grow and be a better person because of what I am learning here.

[JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst]

Originally Posted by JumpedIntoTheDeepEndFirst

Focusing on your employee's pay scale was your choice when you chose to share that information along with your confusion about why other expats were angry with what you did. I shared the info only when it was asked of me. And what I was most confused about in regards to other expats anger is why it was any of their business in the first place and what right did they have to ask me?

 

Many people on this board chose to answer your big universal questions with how they handled the same situations YOU brought up when they were faced with the same dilemmas. They chose to share their experiences as expats in order to help you deal with the realities of daily life as an expat. I appreciate that they shared THEIR life experiences. That doesn't mean I have to do exactly what THEY did nor does it mean I am insensitive, arrogant, naive and a host of other things I was accused of for not doing exactly as they did. I just choose to handle the situation differently.

 

Somewhere in all your details of the discussion the fact that you only wanted philosophical answers to a philosophical question about the guilt of being more fortunate got lost. That is an understatment! My whole point to this thread as expressed in the OP (and in others since then) was the bigger picture... the BIG things I am learning about and learning to deal with as a result of this new life experience.

 

Instead you were given advice about real world coping skills to deal with that sort of emotion. But those aren't the ONLY ways of coping. I was given one set of advice about one specific thing that was not even the point and because I choose to not follow that advice I have been accused of all sorts of things. That is like a brand new homeschool mom asking about how to cope with the overwhelming feeling of ...say... "pressure" she feels as a new homeschool mom and then a bunch of people coming on and saying "well the cure for that is to use all A Beka products." Then if she chooses to NOT use A Beka she is accused of being naive, arrogant and refusing to follow the advice of veterans when really she just wanted some bigger picture encouragement to deal with the pressure.

 

Rather than getting mad at all those who chose to share their experiences and getting so defensive perhaps you could have mentioned at some point that this was a "meaning of life" discussion rather than a "coping with life" discussion. I did. In the meantime you've been awfully busy publicly lambasting those who are trying to keep you from recreating the real world mistakes they have made or seen made as you find a way of putting your philosophy into practical action. No I am irritated with those who are trying to force their opinions down my throat and calling me arrogant and naive for not taking their opinion. Especially when I NEVER asked how much to pay my ahma. After all, if you can witness all that is around you and take no action then there is no point to the "big universal question" unless it is to assuage your own guilt. There are no answers to the "big question" that fit everyone EXACTLY my point. but there are some answers about putting into practice the types of feelings you've been having and that is what many of us have been trying to help with. Well help doesn't typically involve name-calling. Sorry for skipping the philosophy to head straight to real life. Well, as a newbie expat, I need the philosophical foundation before heading straight to real-life tactics otherwise the "real-life" tactics are nothing but tactics and I am looking more towards a change in my heart that results in a change in my actions.

.

 

Heather I give up--I'm beginning to think you haven't actually read my posts. I don't think I've called you any names other than to say you are "new" at being an expat. You seemed to want to know how to help people and seemed to want to understand the reactions of those around you. I tried to explain from my experience what may have been happening. It hasn't been my intent to "force my ideas down your throat" nor does it seem to be the intent of the majority of expats who have posted. I was just trying to help you understand expat life in relation to employees and charity. If you don't want advice from those who have been in your shoes, fine. I don't need the constant criticism for trying to help. Good luck.

[simka2]

 

 

For those of us who have been through this sort of experience we know that culture shock has many stages (much like those of grieving) and that to survive, enjoy life and be able to share your good fortune you need to get out of the cycle of questioning and get on with real life as soon as possible. Those who don't tend to suffer the most. Perhaps that is why a post such as this is read differently by those with expat experience. We cannot always answer the "big questions" to each-others' satisfaction but we can help others understand the realities of expat life.

 

This is well said, and makes sense. I'm just thinking (and I could be wrong) that Heather is hitting the "overwhelmed with advice point." I would be in her shoes. My emotions would not have had time to catch up with my logical side. That could be a matter of hours, but until I could take a deep breathe and let it sink in...I would just be staying in "overwhelmed mode."

 

Again, you have obviously gained great wisdom from your experience. I know I just have to let these things sit for a bit...especially when my previous views or thought are being challenged.

 

Peace, peace to all ;).

[KJB]

In America, we don't like the concept of class. Our country was founded on a desire to eliminate special people who earned their specialness merely by their parentage.

 

We continue to strive for blurred class lines. In fact, the American dream is built upon the ideal that anyone can climb the ladder. We are not stuck in the class we are born in if we do not choose to be stuck. Regardless of statistics about upward mobility, any individual *can* climb out of his class if his own determination drives him to do so.

 

But, ironically, Americans *are* special because of our parentage.

 

I live in a country (Turkey) which has a deeply felt class structure. People are imprisoned or not based upon who they know when crimes happen. People of higher class are actually given lower prices at local stores just to encourage the upper class to return which makes a shop look profitable. People of higher class here are treated remarkably different with often a VIP status.

 

And, like you, coming from the US (although I've been out of the CONUS for coming up on 8 years) I sometimes feel badly about my special treatment. However, I try to not look at the culture I am living in through the lens of an American. I realize my American public school upbringing, which stressed how we are all created equal and sought to accommodate my peers with handicaps and learning disabilities, is not the standard by which my current home should be judged. Where I live people are tough. People don't get accommodated.

 

I have learned to let go of my expectation that life should be fair. It's just not. It never was.

 

And as far as local people (I have a gardner and a housekeeper), they are thankful for the jobs that Americans provide here. The class system is their system. I am not here to liberate them. I am not here to stir up the vanguard of the proletariat. I'm here with my husband who is working and as a by-product creating many jobs. I'm raising my kids with some sense of the greater world around them. I'm shopping local, having clothes made at local tailors, buying rugs, helping fuel this close to my present home economy. And I feel good about that.

 

And my local friends and employees don't resent my VIP card. They know we're spoiled or lucky or choose your adjective. They've known it for a long time. They still maintain a sense of superiority (right or wrong) about other things relative to Americans. And they understand how their system works. If they want it changed, they are capable. Look at Egypt and Tunisia now and then all of history....

 

You're not saying "Let them eat cake". You're participating in the way life is for the people around you. They are happy you are there to support their economy.

 

Don't feel guilty for coming from a country that happens to be economically and globally advantaged. Someone is going to fill that role. If the US feels too guilty about being in that role, then another country (perhaps an even less compassionate one) will gladly step in.

 

IMO, Americans are some of the most giving people in the world. We do step in and help where we can. Sometimes we are misguided, sometimes we are driven by self-interest, sometime we are cultural idiots and make huge mistakes, but I believe as a world power our hearts are mostly in the right place. Feel good about that. Do what you can for those around you. Respect the culture you are in enough to not feel sorry for the people that surround you.

[Miss Sherry]

:iagree: Having lived overseas for only 7 months, I heeded the same advice that many here have given.

Unfortunately, instead of listening to counsel from others with more experience, there are those who will only learn ( or not learn) by making their own mistakes for years and years.

 

22 Plans fail for lack of counsel,

but with many advisers they succeed. Proverbs 15:22

[Heather in Neverland]

 

Heather I give up--I'm beginning to think you haven't actually read my posts. I don't think I've called you any names other than to say you are "new" at being an expat. Well, then maybe I wasn't talking about you specifically. .

.

[Heather in Neverland]

 

This is well said, and makes sense. I'm just thinking (and I could be wrong) that Heather is hitting the "overwhelmed with advice point." I would be in her shoes. My emotions would not have had time to catch up with my logical side. That could be a matter of hours, but until I could take a deep breathe and let it sink in...I would just be staying in "overwhelmed mode."

 

.

 

Overwhelmed and exhausted from being told all the ways in which my attempts at compassion are failures. I am moving on to happier pastures... :tongue_smilie: