Anybody not bothered by people who receive public assistance?

[justamouse]

 

As for not wanting to make more money b/c it leads to more taxes - I am sure there are those who feel like that. And that is their right and their choice. As for my family, we are eager to move up that income/tax chain! :D (Talking with my dad recently and he was talking about someone who was paying $XXXX in taxes. My dad was *laughing* and saying he *wished* he had an income that necessitated paying such high taxes. Dh, mil, and I all feel like my dad! :lol: So I don't think it would be a "dis"incentive for many. But I won't argue that it wouldn't be for some. And I don't fault them for that!)

 

 

just wait till you get to those brackets. Straddling 28 to 33 and straddling 33-35. Those are doozies. You do anything you can to not make the jump unless you can land in the middle of the pond.

[Slartibartfast]

In terms of fraud and cheating - of course it happens. Where doesn't it happen? :confused: I wonder about the hyper - focus on people cheating the gov't out of whatever the current amount of welfare is or whatever amount of foodstamps when corporations (CEOs) have robbed people blind - stolen life savings and retirements. What about all the scammers out there tricking the elderly out of their nominal income?

 

 

That is why I am always horrified when people talk about privatizing social security.

 

Did you not notice that Enron thing? How about the others?

 

Great, then we will have some really rich unethical people and horribly broke old people. AWESOME!

[Sonshine]

justamouse - I feel like crying. What a hard life you had. I admire people who continue in those circumstances to do the best they can for their children. My mother worked very hard too. She was a bit of an emotional mother (like me, but without support so it was more untempered) and I don't think I did or still do appreciate what she did to feed and clothe me (as meager as it was). I remember putting the milk out on the windowsill to keep it cold because the power had been shut off and so no refrigerator. Thank you for the sacrifices you made. I don't begrudge you any help you got, wherever it came from. Did whomever it was who shamed you help you out themselves? If you don't want to answer that question I understand.

[mamakven]

this whole thing just makes me so sad. WHERE is the concern for PEOPLE! and if we as a society are so "home of the free and the brave" and yet we have no compassion for others, are we really that fortunate?!?

 

The faith based system is a cool idea but its completely impractical and untenable. First of all- it would require GENEROSITY which, obviously is SORELY lacking in people in general, and secondly, could pretty much everyone afford to contribute an extra 20% or whatever, while still paying their whatever percent in taxes? not a chance! i think that the faith based system comes from people who have no qualms with throwing the poor their scraps.

 

i also agree that the highest wage earners are not by any stretch necessarily the hardest workers. Your income doesn't define your worth! until people GET THAT nothing whatsoever is going to improve. just my .02

[justamouse]

Did whomever it was who shamed you help you out themselves? If you don't want to answer that question I understand.

 

Yeah, you never really understand the decisions your parents make until you're faced with horrible decisions yourself.

 

Heh. Twisted story-no they didn't, and their own lack of getting help they needed ruined their lives.

[Sonshine]

Well, my mother was by herself with two children - one of whom was at times a smart aleck teenage daughter (not saying who that was). No wonder she was a little emotional. Thanks for helping me advance a little in my appreciation of her.

[anabelneri]

One part in this discussion has touched on concern that the taxation will become too top-heavy. I don't have any well-constructed arguments about this, just some experiences.

 

My family lives in Silicon Valley -- around here, Google, Yahoo, AOL, Ebay, PayPal, etc. are all places that you can drive to and walk around. It is truly a unique experience.

 

Before living here I've lived in NC, CO, and MN and have seen and lived what "normal" is in most of our country. And all I can say is that Silicon Valley is nothing like normal. These people are rich. My family is close to "normal" for our nation; if we lived anywhere else, we'd be that middle or upper-middle-class family with a good income. But here, we are "below the median income" and struggle to make ends meet. Get this -- the median income for a family here is over $100,000. These are people who buy new computers on a whim. The women at my knitting group who have iPhones outnumber those who don't 5 to 1. We have gotten hand-me-downs from friends that includes three computers (two are Macs, one of those a laptop), a fancy Ikea table (not a cheap one), Pottery Barn folding chairs, a big TV, and a high-end DVD player. And these are all hand-me-downs from families with only one income, and they aren't CEOs, doctors, or lawyers. Imagine what it's like when both parents work! And they do... when we go to the park during the week, there are more nannies with young children than parents.

 

Honestly, I think taxing these folks a little more isn't going to hurt them that badly. Maybe they'll have to save an extra month or two before buying that new gadget. And the amount that they pay -- so little compared to what they have -- could go so far for a family or individual in need.

 

So I know we're all going to still fall out on our different sides of what our country could or should do. And honestly, I tend to think that that's how it should be. But I wonder sometimes if everyone actually knows what "rich" and "poor" look like. My friends still have no idea how hard it is for us to make ends meet -- some of them complain about finances even as they take cross-country trips for fun on their vacations. At the same time my girls just lost their state-sponsored health insurance, which is going to impact our grocery and clothing budget. The work my husband does isn't worth less than the work they do -- he's just paid less.

 

It breaks my heart to think of the wonderful conservative families I've met who are barely making ends meet when I'm talking to conservatives here in CA, who are more concerned about protecting their wealth than they are our nation or the unborn. It seems like an unfortunate situation somehow.

 

With many prayers for our nation and it's people...

[Mama Geek]

I have seen faith based groups in this country work. I have been involved in them. I spent 2 years working with a group that worked on houses after a hurricane. I participated almost every other weekend. The leader was a member of my church and a good friend. He had a list of 150 people or so that he contacted every week about participating. There were times that it was 3 or 4 people and there were times that there were 30. His daughter set up the same type thing in another town. They did not initially know anything about the other doing it. There were many churches involved along the way. Some provided food to the workers, some provided shelter for people that traveled a long distance to volunteer.

 

Materials were donated by big corporations that so many here have major problems with.

 

These groups received no tax dollars to run but were classified as a non profit organization. Although I am no longer in area, years later the group still exists and they work on houses for the poor.

 

I have since come across churches that do a lot of stuff to help the poor in their communities. When we moved the last time we cleaned out and got rid of 75% of our stuff. The church came and picked it up and gave it to families that needed it. It wasn't sold, it wasn't given to abusers of the system, it was given to people that they knew needed help.

 

I do have compassion for those in need and I am willing to help any way that I can. I have seen faith based assistance work. That is why I can say I would rather the government not take my money and give it to others. I would rather choose who to give my time and money to.

 

And by the way my parents divorced when I was in middle school. My mom raised 2 of us without food stamps, wic or any of the other stuff. We didn't have expensive clothes, we didn't eat out hardly ever, we had a roof over our head and my grandparents helped her out. She worked multiple jobs while we were growing up.

[tex-mex]

I have seen faith based groups in this country work. I have been involved in them. I spent 2 years working with a group that worked on houses after a hurricane. I participated almost every other weekend. The leader was a member of my church and a good friend. He had a list of 150 people or so that he contacted every week about participating. There were times that it was 3 or 4 people and there were times that there were 30. His daughter set up the same type thing in another town. They did not initially know anything about the other doing it. There were many churches involved along the way. Some provided food to the workers, some provided shelter for people that traveled a long distance to volunteer.

 

Materials were donated by big corporations that so many here have major problems with.

 

These groups received no tax dollars to run but were classified as a non profit organization. Although I am no longer in area, years later the group still exists and they work on houses for the poor.

 

I have since come across churches that do a lot of stuff to help the poor in their communities. When we moved the last time we cleaned out and got rid of 75% of our stuff. The church came and picked it up and gave it to families that needed it. It wasn't sold, it wasn't given to abusers of the system, it was given to people that they knew needed help.

 

I do have compassion for those in need and I am willing to help any way that I can. I have seen faith based assistance work. That is why I can say I would rather the government not take my money and give it to others. I would rather choose who to give my time and money to.

 

And by the way my parents divorced when I was in middle school. My mom raised 2 of us without food stamps, wic or any of the other stuff. We didn't have expensive clothes, we didn't eat out hardly ever, we had a roof over our head and my grandparents helped her out. She worked multiple jobs while we were growing up.

I am happy to see somewhere churches are working effectively. That made my day! :)

[Mama Geek]

There are a lot of churches with a lot of problems. It takes dh and I a long time to find a church when we go to a new area, but we often find people that are willing to help others pretty quickly.

 

We've also come to the conclusion that even a lot of the dysfunctional churches have strong believers in their flock.

[Peela]

Yes, this. My one gripe being that Australia will not have us as permanant residents but is happy to let us live here forever on our "temporary" visa, pay taxes, raise kids who consider themselves Australian, but we are not covered by single mother or unemployment welfare systems. It rankles, a lot.

 

Thats interesting Sandra...I thought that Australia had a good agreement with New Zealand to reciprocate welfare payments. I am pretty sure they used to (back in the ol' days when I was on welfare).

[Bev in B'ville]

:rolleyes: Yes, it is so much better to keep people enslaved to the government than tell them to go and support themselves.

 

Many people fall on hard times and need help and it should be available through faith based programs- as it once was. But sooner or later you have to learn to fish for yourself and become a productive member of society.

 

Hold on while I get my flame retardant suit on...

 

I get so tired of hearing people use their socio-economic status to perpetuate their state of living. The whole 'woe is me, I was born poor...never had the opportunities that others had to go to college because no one would pay for it' just doesn't fly with me.

 

I call BS on that attitude. Both my dh and I were poor growing up. My dh was the oldest of three and was babysitting his siblings overnight when he was just six years old while his mother went to one of her three jobs. She was on welfare at some points in their lives. His mother made sure education was a priority in their lives, though. My dh worked hard in school, ended up the valedictorian and won a scholarship to college because he worked hard. He didn't sit back and wait for gov't or anyone else to hand him something.

 

I was in the same boat with my family. I chose the military option. I was in the reserve for eight years and they paid for my college while I was in the reserve. I worked full-time to pay my living expenses while going to college. At Christmas time I worked more than one job so I could have a bit more money (for things like textbooks). It took me longer than the standard four years to graduate because I couldn't always take a full load of classes, but I did it. Was it easy? Absolutely not.

 

Too many people in gov't programs expect someone else to get them out of it. They need to put on their big girl panties and do it themselves. Problem is, too often it involves hard work beyond what a person is willing to do.

 

And, as far as income equalization. I worked very, very hard to be where I am today as has my husband. I absolutely abhore the idea that someone would take my paycheck and give it to someone sitting on their a$$ at home because it's only "fair." When income equalization occurs what you'll see is that those who previously worked hard to earn their incomes and enjoy the benefits will simply stop working hard. Why should a person work hard when their neighbor gets the same amount of money for flipping burgers? Productivity and ingenuity will disintegrate.

 

Those who are willing to work hard and make sacrifices to get ahead shouldn't be punished for their effort. If a person is unhappy with their standard of living, then they should get off their a$$ and do something about it rather than waiting for someone to hand it to them on a silver platter.

 

Yes, I know...getting on my own flame retardant suit.

[Mama Geek]

It is very possible to work hard to get ahead. If you look at the number of legal immigrants who have come to this country with nothing including not being able to speak the language and have made a good life for themselves, that is easy to see. It is very rare that I hear of these folks spending any time on public assistance.

[keptwoman]

Thats interesting Sandra...I thought that Australia had a good agreement with New Zealand to reciprocate welfare payments. I am pretty sure they used to (back in the ol' days when I was on welfare).

They had issues with people coming over and sitting on the unemployment benefit, or people coming over and not working and getting citizenship, so then they tightened it up (understandably) so you had to go through the formal Permanant resident process before becoming a citizen. Which we planned to do, then they changed the job list and DH isn't eligible. We know a lot of other people in exactly the same position.

I understand why they did that too, but I feel like we have been caught in it. We could live here for the next 50 years and we will never have the priviledge of citizenship incl comprehensive social welfare, voting and full tertiary student benefits. We are eligible for carers/invalid benefit (should we need it) and superannuation and medicare. Our kids get partial tertiary benefits. I spent a month or so (after the job list change) really devastated, I've got used to thinking about it now without hyperventilating. Because we love this country and we want to be truely Australian. I'm still really angry about it, that we will never be "good enough" to be Australian. That when the PM says "All Australians" she isn't talking about us, because we can't be one. That we can't get social benefits even though we pay the same taxes. If you went the other way from Australia to NZ, you'd be eligible for full social welfare plus able to apply for citizenship after 5 years of residence. We are happy to be here and we love being here but we'd like things to be a bit more equitable.

Edited January 13, 2011 by keptwoman

[linders]

We live in a small Southern community filled with contrasts - very, very wealthy individuals who have huge mansions, elaborate horse stables, and polo ponies and very, very poor people who live in shacks with no heat who hope and pray to get a few hours working at Walmart. There are no jobs. No, they can't "just move." Where would they move to? Did the rich do something to "deserve" their wealth? Much of it is inherited wealth, some is people who were in the whole investments thing and got lucky. Our family is comfortably middle class and is acquainted with many in both groups.

 

Certainly, some people who receive public assistance are the classic "lazy bums." But the majority are people who are struggling, who can't afford college and can't get a living-wage job without a college degree, who are trapped in an area with a horrendous educational system. My heart breaks for them and we support them however we can.

[hsmom]

That is usually a really hot topic here, I have noticed.

 

Now I am one who is not bothered by it. The way I see it is why judge others? There is no reason for it. It is really a waste of my life worrying about what others do.

 

Now if I ever needed it and I have in the past I will use it. That is what it is there for.

[Bev in B'ville]

We live in a small Southern community filled with contrasts - very, very wealthy individuals who have huge mansions, elaborate horse stables, and polo ponies and very, very poor people who live in shacks with no heat who hope and pray to get a few hours working at Walmart. There are no jobs. No, they can't "just move." Where would they move to? Did the rich do something to "deserve" their wealth? Much of it is inherited wealth, some is people who were in the whole investments thing and got lucky. Our family is comfortably middle class and is acquainted with many in both groups.

 

Certainly, some people who receive public assistance are the classic "lazy bums." But the majority are people who are struggling, who can't afford college and can't get a living-wage job without a college degree, who are trapped in an area with a horrendous educational system. My heart breaks for them and we support them however we can.

 

Only .001% of people in the upper income class inheritied their wealth.

 

As to your second assertion that people just got "lucky" with their investments. First, they had to have worked to get the money to invest in the first place. Second, they didn't just haphazardly or blindly invest their money. They did their research. In other words, they spent time and energy looking into the investment and decided it was worth the risk.

 

As to your third point, that people can't afford college, both my dh and I were in that class of people. Without hard work on both our parts neither of us would have gone to college (see my reply above for more details on our backgrounds).

 

Both my dh and I give back to our community. However, I would very much prefer that the gov't not take my money and give it indiscriminantly to people. I would like to have a say so in how it's spent. That's one of the reasons I think private charity is a much better option. All communities do not have the same needs and only the people in the community know what they need and how best to help. I don't think one approach to all problems (i.e. giving money willy-nilly) is helpful in the least.

[SailorMom]

I believe there is a time and a place for assistance and am glad it is there as a safety net.

However, I do believe it is abused, and once on - can be hard to get off. For example - Medicaid. It is pretty decent insurance, but if you work full time or make more than a certain number of hours, you lose it. So - does one work more, and end up with less money and worse insurance?

I do think there could be a lot of reform, and it is never good to have anyone on long term assistance.

DS and I worked out hineys off to get where we are. DS worked 60 hour weeks and took 16 units at the same time to get his degree. I was working about 50 hours a wekk. Once we had kids, and I ended up staying home - we were dirt poor until he became a 1st LT. But we made it. Yes - we have student loans and some CC debt - but all in all - I'd say we did quite well for starting with nothing.

What irks me is when our insurance through my DS's job is compared to a government handout. DS is active duty military, but we pay every year for our insurance (just because they say it is free- it isn't - we get a statement every year as to how much it cost us). It is a benefit as part of a pay package, and is run through a private, DoD contracted company. Just as any other pay package for a management position would be.

Anyway - off my soapbox.

[Erica in PA]

Doesn't bother me at all; I'm really glad it's available. I really wish there were more available to help people and society in general. I wish we would go through another "Great Compression", with the rich paying much, much, much more in taxes, and average and low-income families getting to go to college much cheaper, getting libraries staffed at almost all hours of the day and night, truly effective environmental protection, research into how the lives of everyone could be made better, etc.

 

I understand that some people are upset by those who abuse the system, by getting benefits and doing cash jobs, but really, is this a huge problem? As big as bankers nearly wrecking the economy, and then taking huge bonuses? Is there even any comparison?

 

I think what's happening in Britain is absolutely frightening, just as frightening as what seems to be happening in America. And I think it's really unfortunate that people are blaming the wrong people for the shape we're in.

 

It sounds as though you think the government is the answer to people's problems and the one to level out the various income levels, taking from the rich and distributing to the poor. I strongly disagree with that mindset. The government does not have the right to interfere in people's lives and finances that way. People are entitled to the money they earn, and the government should not take that from people in the form of higher taxes, in order to redistribute it to others the government thinks should have it instead.

 

As far the issue of public assistance goes, there are many, many more people receiving it than need it. In the town where I grew up, and where my family still lives, *most* people are on welfare. I have seen firsthand many of these people and for the most part they are able-bodied and minded people, who do not get jobs because they are more comfortable with getting money from the government. They often don't get married, because if they do, the gov. will know they also have their bf/gf's income in the household, so couples commit fraud by just living together so they can have both the income and the gov. money. They often have ipods, huge tvs, cable tv, extensive cell phone plans, and other extras that many working class families can't afford. They use their food stamps to buy expensive items like $50 birthday cakes at the bakery where my sister works. This is abuse of the system, and it is rampant. This is just in one small town-- extended over the entire country, this means millions of dollars a year in wasted money, so yes, this bothers me.

 

I am okay with government help for those who are in immediate financial need, but there are way too many who are abusing the system, and it should bother anyone who cares about our country and the well-being of our citizens, imo.

[SailorMom]

Yes, abuse is rampant. I feel like I can say this and not get flamed because I escaped a family in which most of my extended family (not my immediate family, however, my dad was a very hard worker) were such abusers.

It was disturbing the mindset behind it.

I would like to add that historically, wealth redistribution mandated or managed by the government has led to the decline of a civilization. Greece, Rome - both had huge issues with this.

[Elaine]

No flames intended... but as a former Assistant Pastor's wife, I know the 3 churches we served were more interested in their BUILDING project than truly helping the widows and orphans. I find that much of the American church in general is focused in new sanctuaries and raising funds for that. Many missionaries get turned down by churches also. I know when we were missionaries there were about 4-5 churches (out of 30) who told us they wanted to focus on their own projects like a new sanctuary.

 

 

For every one that you cite for doing that, there are at least that many not doing it. We go to a church of over 3,000 people and our pastor has been scaling back in staff and activities for years so that there is more money for those in need. Our church's main goal is outreach and we do not discriminate. Ever.

[NanceXToo]

Not at all. (And been there, done that). I avoid threads that bash these people because reading some of the nasty judgments just really ticks me off. (I'm not referring to here specifically, I'm referring to any message board I've ever been a part of in general).

[Elaine]

I get so tired of hearing people use their socio-economic status to perpetuate their state of living. The whole 'woe is me' date=' I was born poor...never had the opportunities that others had to go to college because no one would pay for it' just doesn't fly with me.

 

I call BS on that attitude. Both my dh and I were poor growing up. My dh was the oldest of three and was babysitting his siblings overnight when he was just six years old while his mother went to one of her three jobs. She was on welfare at some points in their lives. His mother made sure education was a priority in their lives, though. My dh worked hard in school, ended up the valedictorian and won a scholarship to college because he worked hard. He didn't sit back and wait for gov't or anyone else to hand him something.

 

I was in the same boat with my family. I chose the military option. I was in the reserve for eight years and they paid for my college while I was in the reserve. I worked full-time to pay my living expenses while going to college. At Christmas time I worked more than one job so I could have a bit more money (for things like textbooks). It took me longer than the standard four years to graduate because I couldn't always take a full load of classes, but I did it. Was it easy? Absolutely not.

 

Too many people in gov't programs expect someone else to get them out of it. They need to put on their big girl panties and do it themselves. Problem is, too often it involves hard work beyond what a person is willing to do.

 

And, as far as income equalization. I worked very, very hard to be where I am today as has my husband. I absolutely abhore the idea that someone would take my paycheck and give it to someone sitting on their a$$ at home because it's only "fair." When income equalization occurs what you'll see is that those who previously worked hard to earn their incomes and enjoy the benefits will simply stop working hard. Why should a person work hard when their neighbor gets the same amount of money for flipping burgers? Productivity and ingenuity will disintegrate.

 

Those who are willing to work hard and make sacrifices to get ahead shouldn't be punished for their effort. If a person is unhappy with their standard of living, then they should get off their a$$ and do something about it rather than waiting for someone to hand it to them on a silver platter.

 

Yes, I know...getting on my own flame retardant suit.[/quote']

 

:iagree:

[Elaine]

It sounds as though you think the government is the answer to people's problems and the one to level out the various income levels, taking from the rich and distributing to the poor. I strongly disagree with that mindset. The government does not have the right to interfere in people's lives and finances that way. People are entitled to the money they earn, and the government should not take that from people in the form of higher taxes, in order to redistribute it to others the government thinks should have it instead.

 

As far the issue of public assistance goes, there are many, many more people receiving it than need it. In the town where I grew up, and where my family still lives, *most* people are on welfare. I have seen firsthand many of these people and for the most part they are able-bodied and minded people, who do not get jobs because they are more comfortable with getting money from the government. They often don't get married, because if they do, the gov. will know they also have their bf/gf's income in the household, so couples commit fraud by just living together so they can have both the income and the gov. money. They often have ipods, huge tvs, cable tv, extensive cell phone plans, and other extras that many working class families can't afford. They use their food stamps to buy expensive items like $50 birthday cakes at the bakery where my sister works. This is abuse of the system, and it is rampant. This is just in one small town-- extended over the entire country, this means millions of dollars a year in wasted money, so yes, this bothers me.

 

I am okay with government help for those who are in immediate financial need, but there are way too many who are abusing the system, and it should bother anyone who cares about our country and the well-being of our citizens, imo.

 

We see this kind of abuse here, too.

[Haiku]

Rich people abuse the system to a larger degree than poor people do, but poor people are the ones who get blamed for being lazy snakes in the grass. Tax evasion and wage fraud cost this country huge amounts more than welfare scamming does. But rich people are seen as some sort of holy grail who can do no wrong because they supposedly drive the economy, even though the economy would completely and totally collapse without low-wage workers.

 

Tara

[laundrycrisis]

I hate that public assistance and private charity are sometimes abused by those who don't really need it, could get by without it, or have other options. When I know of people who do this, I am very bothered by it. But for those who really need it and have no other options at this time, I am glad it is there and I don't mind contributing to support it.

 

BTW I just finished reading Nickel and Dimed. As an experiment, the author attempted to make ends meet in different parts of the country by working only the lowest-wage jobs. It was very interesting reading.

 

I grew up in a location where rents were very low and it would not be hard to keep an apartment and a car, working one full time job just above minimum wage, and I knew people who did it. But where I live now, even the cheapest apartments are quite expensive. Sometimes I really don't know how people get by here if they don't have at least one job that pays pretty well.

[Renee in NC]

just wait till you get to those brackets. Straddling 28 to 33 and straddling 33-35. Those are doozies. You do anything you can to not make the jump unless you can land in the middle of the pond.

 

An additional $10K per year into the next bracket would cost you an additional $3300 or $3500 - you still get to keep the other $6600 or so. It isn't as if ALL of your income is taxed at the higher rate - just the amount that goes into that bracket.

 

This argument just doesn't hold water with someone who is living on $24K per year.

 

I hope and pray that someday I will even be *analyzing* a decisions like that. The only way I wouldn't take a promotion is if I would net less money for the same amount of work (or if the circumstances would be more difficult.)

 

I am answering this as someone who has finally realized the only way to help my dc overcome their obstacles is by providing as much income as possible. This means working 60-70 hours a week and my dh becoming the primary parent (though he will work as well.) So, if my dh were able to provide a living on his own that would allow me to stay home and give the special needs dc the things that will mean the difference between succeeding or not, the LAST thing I would be doing is complaining about how much I pay in taxes. I would be so grateful I don't even know how to explain it. I would MUCH rather pay more in taxes and still net enough! I'll work the same 60-70 hours a week regardless.

 

My dh, when he makes 70 hour weeks, brings home less than $850 a week. And that isn't available year round.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Renee in FL

[Elaine]

Not at all. (And been there, done that). I avoid threads that bash these people because reading some of the nasty judgments just really ticks me off. (I'm not referring to here specifically, I'm referring to any message board I've ever been a part of in general).

 

Where are the "nasty judgments"? The original question was does it bother you that people receive public assistance? That question requires a yes or no answer, which some of us have answered in the negative.

 

I am not understanding what the purpose of your post was. Unless your goal was to point out that you think you are morally superior because you have no problem with people who receive public assistance.

[Bev in B'ville]

Rich people abuse the system to a larger degree than poor people do, but poor people are the ones who get blamed for being lazy snakes in the grass. Tax evasion and wage fraud cost this country huge amounts more than welfare scamming does. But rich people are seen as some sort of holy grail who can do no wrong because they supposedly drive the economy, even though the economy would completely and totally collapse without low-wage workers.

 

Tara

 

If you're worried about people cheating the tax system (and people of all income levels do this), then it's the tax system in this country that needs revamped, not income redistribution. The Fair Tax method, for example, would tax people only on what they spend with tax credits going towards people in certain groups. The wealthy, by definition, would end up being taxed more because they spend more.

 

Business people and entrepreneurs drive the economy because their businesses provide the jobs (duh!). If they don't have the income resources to support their businesses and/or expand (in order to hire more people), then they go out of business or move their businesses to a country that's more tax friendly to them. So, without those businesses there would be no jobs for low-wage workers. Watch Illinois this next year. Because of the tax hike implemented you will see businesses leaving that state to go to states that are more tax friendly and those jobs will also leave Illinois. It's going to be a perfect case-study of what happens when taxes are raised too high.

[Renee in NC]

If you're worried about people cheating the tax system (and people of all income levels do this)' date=' then it's the tax system in this country that needs revamped, not income redistribution. The Fair Tax method, for example, would tax people only on what they spend with tax credits going towards people in certain groups. The wealthy, by definition, would end up being taxed more because they spend more.

 

Business people and entrepreneurs drive the economy because their businesses provide the jobs (duh!). If they don't have the income resources to support their businesses and/or expand (in order to hire more people), then they go out of business or move their businesses to a country that's more tax friendly to them. So, without those businesses there would be no jobs for low-wage workers. Watch Illinois this next year. Because of the tax hike implemented you will see businesses leaving that state to go to states that are more tax friendly and those jobs will also leave Illinois. It's going to be a perfect case-study of what happens when taxes are raised too high.[/quote']

 

I don't have a problem with fair tax or flat tax, at this low income or at a higher one.

[Haiku]

The Fair Tax method

 

I fully support the Fair Tax, but that was not the point of my post. The point was the people kvetch and whine about all the lazy good-for-nothings who steal their tax money by defrauding public assistance but, economically, those people are a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the ways the wealthy steal their taxes.

 

Oh, and thanks for the "duh." It never occurred to me that business owners provide jobs. :001_unsure: 'Course without those low wage workers, the jobs would mean nothing ...

 

Tara

Edited January 13, 2011 by TaraTheLiberator

[cathmom]

That is why I am always horrified when people talk about privatizing social security.

 

Did you not notice that Enron thing? How about the others?

 

Great, then we will have some really rich unethical people and horribly broke old people. AWESOME!

 

Yes, this idea horrifies me as well. My mother was laid off at the beginning of the economic crisis. She worked for a mortgage company. Since she is over 70, she has not been able to find another job. Instead she has been caring for her 90 yo sister and my sister, who was very ill for a year. Social Security, mainly based on my father's income (they are divorced), is her ONLY income, and this past year her property taxes topped what she is getting in SS (although she does get some sort of rebate). I don't really know how she is paying her bills.

[Bev in B'ville]

I fully support the Fair Tax, but that was not the point of my post. The point was the people kvetch and whine about all the lazy good-for-nothings who steal their tax money by defrauding public assistance but, economically, those people are a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the ways the wealthy steal their taxes.

 

Tara

 

 

You should take care not to label an entire group based on a few instances. My dh and I have never cheated on our taxes, ever. We don't know anyone who has cheated. Most pay their taxes.

[Haiku]

You should take care not to label an entire group based on a few instances.

 

Indeed. The same way that those on public assistance are painted with one broad stroke.

 

We don't know anyone who has cheated.

 

Would they tell you if they did?

 

I'm aware that not all wealthy people evade their taxes and commit wage fraud. However ... the economic impact of those who do is far greater than that of those who abuse the welfare system. I think I have stated that point plainly.

 

Tara

Edited January 13, 2011 by TaraTheLiberator

[susankenny]

I'm not bothered by public assistance, but I am bothered by people that abuse the system. It is there to assist & not debilitate.

 

 

Susan

[Quiver0f10]

I get so tired of hearing people use their socio-economic status to perpetuate their state of living. The whole 'woe is me' date=' I was born poor...never had the opportunities that others had to go to college because no one would pay for it' just doesn't fly with me.

 

I call BS on that attitude. Both my dh and I were poor growing up. My dh was the oldest of three and was babysitting his siblings overnight when he was just six years old while his mother went to one of her three jobs. She was on welfare at some points in their lives. His mother made sure education was a priority in their lives, though. My dh worked hard in school, ended up the valedictorian and won a scholarship to college because he worked hard. He didn't sit back and wait for gov't or anyone else to hand him something.

 

I was in the same boat with my family. I chose the military option. I was in the reserve for eight years and they paid for my college while I was in the reserve. I worked full-time to pay my living expenses while going to college. At Christmas time I worked more than one job so I could have a bit more money (for things like textbooks). It took me longer than the standard four years to graduate because I couldn't always take a full load of classes, but I did it. Was it easy? Absolutely not.

 

Too many people in gov't programs expect someone else to get them out of it. They need to put on their big girl panties and do it themselves. Problem is, too often it involves hard work beyond what a person is willing to do.

 

And, as far as income equalization. I worked very, very hard to be where I am today as has my husband. I absolutely abhore the idea that someone would take my paycheck and give it to someone sitting on their a$$ at home because it's only "fair." When income equalization occurs what you'll see is that those who previously worked hard to earn their incomes and enjoy the benefits will simply stop working hard. Why should a person work hard when their neighbor gets the same amount of money for flipping burgers? Productivity and ingenuity will disintegrate.

 

Those who are willing to work hard and make sacrifices to get ahead shouldn't be punished for their effort. If a person is unhappy with their standard of living, then they should get off their a$$ and do something about it rather than waiting for someone to hand it to them on a silver platter.

 

Yes, I know...getting on my own flame retardant suit.[/quote']

 

 

Well said!

[Kari C in SC]

I'm not at all bothered, and am glad my taxes can help those in need. Sure it's annoying that some people abuse the system, but more often people receiving aid are just trying to make it. The abusers get publicity but that doesn't mean they're in the majority.

 

:iagree:

[cathmom]

Indeed. The same way that those on public assistance are painted with one broad stroke.

 

 

 

Would they tell you if they did?

 

I'm aware that not all wealthy people evade their taxes and commit wage fraud. However ... the economic impact of those who do is far greater than that of those who abuse the welfare system. I think I have stated that point plainly.

 

Tara

 

:iagree:with the whole thing. I was just making your second point to my husband yesterday.

[pqr]

I get so tired of hearing people use their socio-economic status to perpetuate their state of living. The whole 'woe is me' date=' I was born poor...never had the opportunities that others had to go to college because no one would pay for it' just doesn't fly with me.

 

I call BS on that attitude. Both my dh and I were poor growing up. My dh was the oldest of three and was babysitting his siblings overnight when he was just six years old while his mother went to one of her three jobs. She was on welfare at some points in their lives. His mother made sure education was a priority in their lives, though. My dh worked hard in school, ended up the valedictorian and won a scholarship to college because he worked hard. He didn't sit back and wait for gov't or anyone else to hand him something.

 

I was in the same boat with my family. I chose the military option. I was in the reserve for eight years and they paid for my college while I was in the reserve. I worked full-time to pay my living expenses while going to college. At Christmas time I worked more than one job so I could have a bit more money (for things like textbooks). It took me longer than the standard four years to graduate because I couldn't always take a full load of classes, but I did it. Was it easy? Absolutely not.

 

Too many people in gov't programs expect someone else to get them out of it. They need to put on their big girl panties and do it themselves. Problem is, too often it involves hard work beyond what a person is willing to do.

 

And, as far as income equalization. I worked very, very hard to be where I am today as has my husband. I absolutely abhore the idea that someone would take my paycheck and give it to someone sitting on their a$$ at home because it's only "fair." When income equalization occurs what you'll see is that those who previously worked hard to earn their incomes and enjoy the benefits will simply stop working hard. Why should a person work hard when their neighbor gets the same amount of money for flipping burgers? Productivity and ingenuity will disintegrate.

 

Those who are willing to work hard and make sacrifices to get ahead shouldn't be punished for their effort. If a person is unhappy with their standard of living, then they should get off their a$$ and do something about it rather than waiting for someone to hand it to them on a silver platter.

 

Yes, I know...getting on my own flame retardant suit.[/quote']

 

The American Dream personified. It is people like you who made this nation great.

 

Alas, too many now have an expectation that someone else will do the work and GIVE then the results.

 

I believe in helping one's fellow man but what we have in this nstion is nuts.

[Bev in B'ville]

The bottom line in this whole discussion is accountability.

 

We raise our children (at least, most of us do) holding them accountable for their choices and actions.

 

Good choices/actions (e.g. an 'A' on a test) ---> Good consequences (e.g. more playtime or a special dessert, etc.)

 

Bad choices/actions (e.g. an 'F' on a test) ---> Bad consequences (e.g. less play time, no dessert, no video grames, etc.)

 

However, adults seem to get a pass on this and the logic fails. Adults make bad decisions, but they're not held accountable.

 

For example, people who bought homes they couldn't afford and then the gov't bailed them out. People who refuse to better themselves so they can get a decent job and be contributing members of society; gov't gives them money to live on. Where's the logic? Since when do we not hold adults accountable for their actions? Since when did we say "It's okay that you made bad choices in your life, here's some money."

 

I don't lament having public assistance. However, it should be temporary, it should have more oversight so that the people receiving it spend it wisely (not on flat screen TV's or iPhones, etc.) and continued assistance should be contingent on receiving job training of some sorts (college, tech school or OJT) not necessarily provided by the gov't.

[Barry Goldwater]

I don't lament having public assistance. However' date=' it should be temporary, it should have more oversight so that the people receiving it spend it wisely (not on flat screen TV's or iPhones, etc.) and continued assistance should be contingent on receiving job training of some sorts (college, tech school or OJT) not necessarily provided by the gov't.[/quote']

:iagree:

 

and I further lament a great Nation that now has such a large percentage of people who believe, as a default position, that the Federal Government should solve ALL their problems for them.

[Haiku]

However' date=' adults seem to get a pass on this and the logic fails. Adults make bad decisions, but they're not held accountable.

 

[/quote']

 

I agree with you there. I just don't like that one segment of society gets scapegoated and another does not.

 

Tara

[ColoradoMom]

I am not bothered by public assistance but I believe there should be very strict regulations as to who gets it and for how long.

 

 

 

1. I do not support giving any illegal alien public assistance - ever.
   
2. I do not support more than 2 consecutive years of public assistance for any one family unless they jump through a lot of hoops to convince state officials that it is required. The hoops should be HUGE.
   
3. I do not support rewarding single mothers for having more children to up their payments.
   
4. I would find very creative ways to punish fathers who walk out on children. Very creative, embarrassing, humiliating, and difficult ways.
   
5. I would make continuing education a requirement for any public assistance - basic skills, vocational, or college. Take your pick.
   

 

With that said - I DO believe in helping people when they are down. They need it. But there is a difference between being down for a period of time and never having been productive EVER.

 

Public assistance should always be viewed as a temporary solution to an insurmountable problem. Not a way of life and NOT a way to socially distribute other people's wealth.

 

It should be entered into with a tangible way out in mind and every TAKER should end up being a GIVER at the end of their public assistance period whether that be through community service or a small extra tax on their paycheck for the same number of months they were on public assistance.

[Haiku]

and I further lament a great Nation that now has such a large percentage of people who believe, as a default position, that the Federal Government should solve ALL their problems for them.

 

I have NEVER encountered someone who believes this. Perhaps you are using some hyperbole, though, and just making the point that some people have different ideas than you do about the legitimate functions of government.

 

I have never met someone who called in the government to help when they woke up one morning to find that they were out of coffee, even though that IS a SERIOUS problem. :D

 

Tara

[Barry Goldwater]

I have NEVER encountered someone who believes this. Perhaps you are using some hyperbole, though, and just making the point that some people have different ideas than you do about the legitimate functions of government.

 

I have never met someone who called in the government to help when they woke up one morning to find that they were out of coffee, even though that IS a SERIOUS problem. :D

 

Tara

 

Have you ever met someone that has uttered in frustration, "THERE OUGHT TO BE A LAW AGAINST <fill in>..."?

 

BTW, completely agree re: the coffee...that is extremely serious:D:D

[Jackie in AR]

I get so tired of hearing people use their socio-economic status to perpetuate their state of living. The whole 'woe is me' date=' I was born poor...never had the opportunities that others had to go to college because no one would pay for it' just doesn't fly with me.

 

I call BS on that attitude. Both my dh and I were poor growing up. My dh was the oldest of three and was babysitting his siblings overnight when he was just six years old while his mother went to one of her three jobs. She was on welfare at some points in their lives. His mother made sure education was a priority in their lives, though. My dh worked hard in school, ended up the valedictorian and won a scholarship to college because he worked hard. He didn't sit back and wait for gov't or anyone else to hand him something.

 

I was in the same boat with my family. I chose the military option. I was in the reserve for eight years and they paid for my college while I was in the reserve. I worked full-time to pay my living expenses while going to college. At Christmas time I worked more than one job so I could have a bit more money (for things like textbooks). It took me longer than the standard four years to graduate because I couldn't always take a full load of classes, but I did it. Was it easy? Absolutely not.

 

Too many people in gov't programs expect someone else to get them out of it. They need to put on their big girl panties and do it themselves. Problem is, too often it involves hard work beyond what a person is willing to do.

 

And, as far as income equalization. I worked very, very hard to be where I am today as has my husband. I absolutely abhore the idea that someone would take my paycheck and give it to someone sitting on their a$$ at home because it's only "fair." When income equalization occurs what you'll see is that those who previously worked hard to earn their incomes and enjoy the benefits will simply stop working hard. Why should a person work hard when their neighbor gets the same amount of money for flipping burgers? Productivity and ingenuity will disintegrate.

 

Those who are willing to work hard and make sacrifices to get ahead shouldn't be punished for their effort. If a person is unhappy with their standard of living, then they should get off their a$$ and do something about it rather than waiting for someone to hand it to them on a silver platter.

 

Yes, I know...getting on my own flame retardant suit.[/quote']

 

Very nicely stated, Bev!

 

ETA: And to answer the OP, no, I am not bothered by people who really need public assistance being on it for a time. I'm not good with cradle to grave for those who feel entitled.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Jackie in AR

[Bev in B'ville]

I have NEVER encountered someone who believes this. Perhaps you are using some hyperbole, though, and just making the point that some people have different ideas than you do about the legitimate functions of government.

 

I have never met someone who called in the government to help when they woke up one morning to find that they were out of coffee, even though that IS a SERIOUS problem. :D

 

Tara

 

There were citizens of our great country who, after Obama was elected, stated that they could now quit their jobs because Obama and the gov't would take care of them. :001_huh:

 

Out of coffee! National crisis for sure (at least in my house). :lol:

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

As an ex-communist citizen from Romania, I can say that I am afraid where US is going... seems to be more and more toward the socialism .

 

It does not bother me that people in need receive help but I am concerned when you say the rich should be taxed more . I am not rich, the contrary I am on the poorer side of the middle class, living here in US, but I appreciated the freedom and the capitalism when I came here a few years ago. This is what make America so great , so special in the whole world !

 

I lived in a country where they take from the rich to give to the poor and I tell you that America will have a somber future if this will happen .

 

I also lived in France for many years and I experienced how their socialist government take 50% of citizens salaries to pay immigrants and French who are lazy to get jobs .

 

I don't like or condone communism at all. Our country and its capitalism has thrived on much higher tax rates in the past though. In the 1960sand 1970s the tax rate for the upper incomes was 70 to 90%. MY grandfather paid those higher rates and he thrived and created several hundred jobs. Currently we have historically very low tax rates and I see no problem with increasing the upper income tax rates by a paltry 4% to the tax rates under President Clinton. Reasonable higher taxes does not equal communism at all.

 

My 2 cents:)

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

There were citizens of our great country who' date=' after Obama was elected, stated that they could now quit their jobs because Obama and the gov't would take care of them. :001_huh:

 

Out of coffee! National crisis for sure (at least in my house). :lol:[/quote']

 

I never met any of these people. I am sure moochers will take advantage no matter who is in office and I don't think they are the majority at all.

[Mejane]

If people need assistance, they should have it. That said, the system is broken imo, and that's all I'm gonna say about that.