jld Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Doesn't bother me at all; I'm really glad it's available. I really wish there were more available to help people and society in general. I wish we would go through another "Great Compression", with the rich paying much, much, much more in taxes, and average and low-income families getting to go to college much cheaper, getting libraries staffed at almost all hours of the day and night, truly effective environmental protection, research into how the lives of everyone could be made better, etc. I understand that some people are upset by those who abuse the system, by getting benefits and doing cash jobs, but really, is this a huge problem? As big as bankers nearly wrecking the economy, and then taking huge bonuses? Is there even any comparison? I think what's happening in Britain is absolutely frightening, just as frightening as what seems to be happening in America. And I think it's really unfortunate that people are blaming the wrong people for the shape we're in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audrey Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) I'm not at all bothered by it and am glad some of my tax money goes to help actual fellow human beings. :thumbup: Edited January 13, 2011 by Audrey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannah C. Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm not bothered by the mere fact of people receiving public assistance. Actually, I'm one of those people -- I'm on Medicaid for pregnant ladies. Without it I would be racking up a lot of credit card debt to pay for my medical bills...and praying very, very hard that I wouldn't have to go to a hospital for *anything*, because there's no way I could pay off the medical bills which would result. The idea of people cheating the system just because they can, however, bugs me, in a similar way to how the stories of "homeless" people making $300/day and then driving off to their fancy homes bugs me. I have yet to meet a person who fits either of those descriptions, and I am convinced that most people who are on various forms of public assistance do *NOT* fit those descriptions at all. Sadly, I am equally sure that such people do exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Florida. Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm not at all bothered, and am glad my taxes can help those in need. Sure it's annoying that some people abuse the system, but more often people receiving aid are just trying to make it. The abusers get publicity but that doesn't mean they're in the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I have to say that I do know people who abuse the system, including not reporting income and then claiming public assistance. Yes, it does bother me. I don't cheat on my income taxes - I work hard and pay taxes, some of which go to liars and cheats. Yes, these people have told me what they do - I am not just guessing. They are the family members of a friend of mine, so I will not report them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Better bread than guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I am bothered by the fact that there are generations of people on public assistance and it's hard to get out of that situation. But I am not bothered n the way that you mean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HRAAB Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 People receiving public assistance does not bother me. Of course, I am aware that there are those who cheat the system, but then there are people who will cheat wherever and whenever they can. I'm still glad that people who are in need can get help, and I wouldn't want to see truly needy people without that help because there are dishonest people using the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daisy Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 No, people receiving public assistance does not bother me. My BIL is on permanent disability. I'm glad we have services in place to help people in need. What does bother me though is when it is never enough. I live in CA and our taxes have gone up and up and up and our income hasn't. So I feel stress about our family's financial situation. But I'm glad those services are there because if CA keeps taxing us to death, our family will eventually need them. We can't afford to move and we can barely afford to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jld Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm thinking the problem is that people don't realize how short-changed the lower and middle classes have been in the last 30-40 years. They don't realize the impact of income inequality, no matter how many pieces the NYT does on it. And I myself hadn't heard of "The Great Compression" until a month or so ago. I think if there were more true education, true informing on the news, people could see how much better we all could be doing and not just the top tenth of one percent. And I am really sick of people blaming the victims (the poor, illegal immigrants, even the middle class experiencing unemployment, etc.). Most of us have been ripped off. By banding together, we really could change our country. By staying divided we can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWOB Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Not bothered at all. Dh and I were both in the Navy. We had a stable, liveable income. Then, I got out. At the time, we had one child, were living in San Diego, and I was attending school. We were very careful with our money, but it was difficult. So, after much prodding, I applied for WIC. It was amazing. I had the necessities covered, which allowed for extra money to purchase healthy food. Many of my Navy wife friends also qualified for and used WIC. I never saw abuse. In fact, many of these families felt very blessed to have that help. When we moved to a lower cost-of-living area, we no longer qualified. It was no longer need, but I will always be thankful for the help we recieved. As a child, my parents received food stamps. My dad worked in the oil industry during the mid-80s collapse. He could not find work. My mom worked at a fast-food restaurant to make ends meet. We needed that. Our family couldn't control the economy. We tried, failed, and graciously accepted help when needed. Dh and I are very blessed now in our income. I do not grudge one cent of our income that goes to these programs. Sometimes life sucks. SOmetimes things happen. Sometimes people need help getting on their feet. The vast majority of people who accept help need it. We only hear about the very small percentage of people who cheat the system. They are not in the majority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~cindy~ Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I consider it my responsibility to support a system that helps those who are less fortunate than myself. I do not begrudge anyone the right to welfare. I don't want to live in a country where those who can't or won't help themselves are not supported...Lucky I don't;):001_smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWOB Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm thinking the problem is that people don't realize how short-changed the lower and middle classes have been in the last 30-40 years. They don't realize the impact of income inequality, no matter how many pieces the NYT does on it. And I myself hadn't heard of "The Great Compression" until a month or so ago. I think if there were more true education, true informing on the news, people could see how much better we all could be doing and not just the top tenth of one percent. And I am really sick of people blaming the victims (the poor, illegal immigrants, even the middle class experiencing unemployment, etc.). Most of us have been ripped off. By banding together, we really could change our country. By staying divided we can't. :iagree: Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peela Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 In Australia our welfare system is very good. I am glad for it- having been a recipient myself in the past. It is humane to have decent welfare, and the "bludgers" are the minority. Over the years the system has been tightened up- its much harder to play the system than it used to be. But we don't have severe poverty- even those on welfare, or partial welfare can have a reasonable standard of living which is actually good for all of society. Single mothers in particular can live well and be good parents without having to go out and work full time. Even as a middle income family we receive a fortnightly family payment. I would be much more concerned about those wealthy bankers and CEOs, and military spending, than feeding amd clothing the unfortunate. It is to everyone's benefit that no one starve or be homeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BakersDozen Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I don't want to live in a country where those who can't or won't help themselves are not supported... It's right there that my support for those on public assistance waivers. I'm all for helping those who cannot help themselves. I'm all for assistance that enables people to move on from using public funds rather than set up camp. But for those who will not help themselves I have absolutely no sympathy. I'm incredibly thankful that public assistance is there for those who truly need it. I believe that the current system needs an overhaul, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elaine Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Doesn't bother me at all; I'm really glad it's available. I really wish there were more available to help people and society in general. I wish we would go through another "Great Compression", with the rich paying much, much, much more in taxes, and average and low-income families getting to go to college much cheaper, getting libraries staffed at almost all hours of the day and night, truly effective environmental protection, research into how the lives of everyone could be made better, etc. I understand that some people are upset by those who abuse the system, by getting benefits and doing cash jobs, but really, is this a huge problem? As big as bankers nearly wrecking the economy, and then taking huge bonuses? Is there even any comparison? I think what's happening in Britain is absolutely frightening, just as frightening as what seems to be happening in America. And I think it's really unfortunate that people are blaming the wrong people for the shape we're in. :rolleyes: Yes, it is so much better to keep people enslaved to the government than tell them to go and support themselves. Many people fall on hard times and need help and it should be available through faith based programs- as it once was. But sooner or later you have to learn to fish for yourself and become a productive member of society. Hold on while I get my flame retardant suit on... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blessedmom3 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 As an ex-communist citizen from Romania, I can say that I am afraid where US is going... seems to be more and more toward the socialism . It does not bother me that people in need receive help but I am concerned when you say the rich should be taxed more . I am not rich, the contrary I am on the poorer side of the middle class, living here in US, but I appreciated the freedom and the capitalism when I came here a few years ago. This is what make America so great , so special in the whole world ! I lived in a country where they take from the rich to give to the poor and I tell you that America will have a somber future if this will happen . I also lived in France for many years and I experienced how their socialist government take 50% of citizens salaries to pay immigrants and French who are lazy to get jobs . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slartibartfast Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) It doesn't bother me at all. I know some people abuse the system and I am sure there is some that slip through the cracks but what matter to me at the end of the day is that a child is being fed. If that child's parents cannot or will not work I don't give a &%$#. I want that child fed. Edited January 13, 2011 by Sis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) social democracy or the welfare state, partly because federal and state governments are so incompetent. I would favor greater social welfare if I felt our political class was capable of administering them with competency, but our public school systems and many other institutions that used to function no longer do so. Reform has failed time and again. We need to destroy the big blue monster. Edited January 13, 2011 by Stacy in NJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stacy in NJ Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 comparing Sioux City, South Dakota to New York City. The population of Australia is about 20 million; the USA's is 320 million. Because of our history, our culture is exponentially more complex and diverse. I don't intend this as a slight to Oz, but I really have a hard time believing that a non-American can fully appreciate the level of complexity that exists in modern America. Within our 50 state the social welfare benefits vary widely depending on the social mores of the locals. In Australia our welfare system is very good. I am glad for it- having been a recipient myself in the past. It is humane to have decent welfare, and the "bludgers" are the minority. Over the years the system has been tightened up- its much harder to play the system than it used to be. But we don't have severe poverty- even those on welfare, or partial welfare can have a reasonable standard of living which is actually good for all of society. Single mothers in particular can live well and be good parents without having to go out and work full time. Even as a middle income family we receive a fortnightly family payment. I would be much more concerned about those wealthy bankers and CEOs, and military spending, than feeding amd clothing the unfortunate. It is to everyone's benefit that no one starve or be homeless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prairiebird Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 :rolleyes: Yes, it is so much better to keep people enslaved to the government than tell them to go and support themselves. Many people fall on hard times and need help and it should be available through faith based programs- as it once was. But sooner or later you have to learn to fish for yourself and become a productive member of society. Hold on while I get my flame retardant suit on... This would only work if faith based programs didn't discriminate. I think public assistance is necessary because there are people that have accumulated generational wealth off the backs of mistreatment of minorities or others. It really hasn't been that long of a time to correct for this- has it been two or three generations since the Civil Rights Act? However, I support mandatory financial and life-skill education for families on public assistance. I say mandatory only because then someone who might otherwise be embarrassed to admit they don't even know about how to balance a checkbook or put together a budget or how to save for retirement might feel a bit more comfortable if everyone on aid had to do it. (And let's face it- 401k, 403B, Roth IRA-- that probably sounds like a foreign language for someone raised in these situations. Maybe even a simple budget does for someone never learning it from their parents or in school.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 In Australia our welfare system is very good. I am glad for it- having been a recipient myself in the past. It is humane to have decent welfare, and the "bludgers" are the minority. Over the years the system has been tightened up- its much harder to play the system than it used to be. But we don't have severe poverty- even those on welfare, or partial welfare can have a reasonable standard of living which is actually good for all of society. Single mothers in particular can live well and be good parents without having to go out and work full time. Even as a middle income family we receive a fortnightly family payment. I would be much more concerned about those wealthy bankers and CEOs, and military spending, than feeding amd clothing the unfortunate. It is to everyone's benefit that no one starve or be homeless. Yes, this. My one gripe being that Australia will not have us as permanant residents but is happy to let us live here forever on our "temporary" visa, pay taxes, raise kids who consider themselves Australian, but we are not covered by single mother or unemployment welfare systems. It rankles, a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Another big problem with faith-based programs is that fraud is equally rampant. I worked with my church food bank, we had people fill out forms, but was basically on the honor system. People were caught defrauding our tiny church food bank. At least the government can verify to *some* degree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm happy they're there. The disdain and lack of respect for people that need help is really worrisome. It's easy to point a finger when it's not you, but remember it rains on the just and unjust. Someday that might be you getting judged as lazy and unwilling to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 One of my problems with increased government spending in general and therefore increased taxes is the math. The higher the tax rate on my earnings, the less incentive I have to work, and the less taxes I pay. Someone has to generate the income for govt. assistance and other govt spending. This isn't theoretical - it is the situation I and many others are in. If the system becomes too top heavy, it will topple. Wanting to help others is noble, but the income has to come from somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawana Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I think public assistance is necessary because there are people that have accumulated generational wealth off the backs of mistreatment of minorities or others. It really hasn't been that long of a time to correct for this- has it been two or three generations since the Civil Rights Act? And then there are those that have, by no assistance from anyone, managed to crawl up from the destitution of a single parent, uneducated, abusive family, only to have their sweat and determination rewarded by being taxed more and more and more, while at the same time contributing voluntarily to those less fortunate. How much easier it would have been to just sit back and claim underprivilege. For all those that have compassion for those less fortunate than themselves, and think that compulsory contribution is the answer, do you have none for those that have managed, despite their circumstances, to rise above abject poverty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWOB Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Another big problem with faith-based programs is that fraud is equally rampant. I worked with my church food bank, we had people fill out forms, but was basically on the honor system. People were caught defrauding our tiny church food bank. At least the government can verify to *some* degree. I am currently experiencing this. Our church has a preschool. Our tuition is $35/month for 3yo 2-days and $50/month for 4-5yo 3-days. We are currently trying to inact a tuition-assistance program for families who truly cannot afford the tuition. Of course we are aware that people may take advantage of this. We have to be extra cautious since our collections have been reduced due to the current economic climate. How are we to waive tuition with less money AND feed people in need? Our own congregation is hurting and cannot give as much as before. When an economic recession happens, people give less. Faith-based groups simply cannot do it all, no matter how hard we try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWOB Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 One of my problems with increased government spending in general and therefore increased taxes is the math. The higher the tax rate on my earnings, the less incentive I have to work, and the less taxes I pay. Someone has to generate the income for govt. assistance and other govt spending. This isn't theoretical - it is the situation I and many others are in. If the system becomes too top heavy, it will topple. Wanting to help others is noble, but the income has to come from somewhere. I don't buy this for a second. We are right on the cusp of entering a higher tax bracket. You can bet your knickers I will NOT tell my husband to decline overtime hours JUST so we won't pay extra taxes. Perhaps that is just me and my sucker mentality talking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Well, I am not lying. I would work more if I brought home more of my original paycheck. Why is it so hard to believe that others may make a different choice than you in regards to this matter? You may argue with my opinion, but it is hard to argue with my personal reasons for a decision I make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I'm not at all bothered by it and am glad some of my tax money goes to help actual fellow human beings. :thumbup: :iagree::iagree::iagree: What bothers me more are those tv commentators or fat cat corporate folks sitting in their "ivory towers" lamenting all about us little people's troubles. Like they really give a rip. ;) We're either good for revenue or just another ratings ploy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KidsHappen Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Doesn't bother me at all; I'm really glad it's available. I really wish there were more available to help people and society in general. I have no problem with this at all. I am absolutely in favor of temporary respite (even a fairly long one) but I don't support cradle to grave care. I wish we would go through another "Great Compression", with the rich paying much, much, much more in taxes, and average and low-income families getting to go to college much cheaper, getting libraries staffed at almost all hours of the day and night, truly effective environmental protection, research into how the lives of everyone could be made better, etc. I have a major problems with this. I see no reason what-so-ever that the rich should pay substanitally higher taxes. As a matter of fact I would much prefer to see a fair or flat tax instead of what we have now. I think that what we really need to be doing is looking at cutting lots of other programs while putting limits on some of the ones left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Well, I am not lying. I would work more if I brought home more of my original paycheck. Why is it so hard to believe that others may make a different choice than you in regards to this matter? You may argue with my opinion, but it is hard to argue with my personal reasons for a decision I make. You don't work to the best of your ability because you have to pay taxes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWOB Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Well, I am not lying. I would work more if I brought home more of my original paycheck. Why is it so hard to believe that others may make a different choice than you in regards to this matter? You may argue with my opinion, but it is hard to argue with my personal reasons for a decision I make. Your opinions are indeed valid. I just find it a hard opinion to swallow, especially coming from someone who has strong feelings against people not working and getting assistance. Perhaps I am one of those people who has had to rely on assistance in the past who cannot fathom NOT working more to get ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I work less hours - I am a full time home school mom and part time worker. When I am working I do work to the best of my ability. I am speaking of the number of hours I work, not the quality of my work. What did I say that implies otherwise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawana Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 You don't work to the best of your ability because you have to pay taxes? You don't make a cost-benefit analysis with your resources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Of course I do. It benefits me less to work for a lower amount of money per hour, so I work less hours. I apologize if I am not understanding and answering the question correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 :rolleyes: Yes, it is so much better to keep people enslaved to the government than tell them to go and support themselves. Many people fall on hard times and need help and it should be available through faith based programs- as it once was. But sooner or later you have to learn to fish for yourself and become a productive member of society. Hold on while I get my flame retardant suit on... No flames intended... but as a former Assistant Pastor's wife, I know the 3 churches we served were more interested in their BUILDING project than truly helping the widows and orphans. I find that much of the American church in general is focused in new sanctuaries and raising funds for that. Many missionaries get turned down by churches also. I know when we were missionaries there were about 4-5 churches (out of 30) who told us they wanted to focus on their own projects like a new sanctuary. And Mrs. Mungo has a great point about abuse with food pantries in churches. One church I volunteered at had numerous abusers who were on the "honor system" for getting aid. I recall a handful of them driving off in a Jaguar or Mercedes Benz -- after giving me a sad story, walking off with groceries, and show up for Bible Study with designer duds, Rolex, and yapping about their nice vacation -- all back in the late 90's. The govt can do a better job of keeping tabs with if you are REALLY down and out or unemployed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 And then there are those that have, by no assistance from anyone, managed to crawl up from the destitution of a single parent, uneducated, abusive family, only to have their sweat and determination rewarded by being taxed more and more and more, while at the same time contributing voluntarily to those less fortunate. How much easier it would have been to just sit back and claim underprivilege. For all those that have compassion for those less fortunate than themselves, and think that compulsory contribution is the answer, do you have none for those that have managed, despite their circumstances, to rise above abject poverty? That would be me. Single mom, on food stamps and couch surfing. BUT--I was healthy. If I needed any medical care I would not be where I am now because I went YEARS without healthcare. One bad thing could have happened and it would all be over but the crying. And I can see not wanting to jump into a higher tax bracket. Because there's this gray area. You're in a higher bracket, you get taxed more and you're not making MUCH more than you were--just enough to push you into the new level. Unless you can make the jump and make it well enough to absorb those new taxes and not go backwards, some times it's safer just to idle while you plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 No flames intended... but as a former Assistant Pastor's wife, I know the 3 churches we served were more interested in their BUILDING project than truly helping the widows and orphans. I find that much of the American church in general is focused in new sanctuaries and raising funds for that. Many missionaries get turned down by churches also. I know when we were missionaries there were about 4-5 churches (out of 30) who told us they wanted to focus on their own projects like a new sanctuary. :iagree:The church I left was putting on million dollar additions and not helping the community in the least. It's why I left. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Not to be argumentative - I think we have just touched the surface of the many facets of this system and I am learning from everyone's posts. But to correct justamouse, I never said I had problems with the system helping people. I have problems with people lying, cheating and abusing the system. My single mom received food stamps and public assistance at times in my childhood. Mostly she worked very hard, but at times when she needed it she accepted govt. help. I myself went to college partially on govt. grants. But I am amazed when I don't see a realization that the money has to come from somewhere and that there isn't an endless supply of it. I love my children and want to help them. But I only have so much money. My point is that there has to be limits on how much the govt. system pays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lawana Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 That would be me. Single mom, on food stamps and couch surfing. BUT--I was healthy. If I needed any medical care I would not be where I am now because I went YEARS without healthcare. One bad thing could have happened and it would all be over but the crying. And I can see not wanting to jump into a higher tax bracket. Because there's this gray area. You're in a higher bracket, you get taxed more and you're not making MUCH more than you were--just enough to push you into the new level. Unless you can make the jump and make it well enough to absorb those new taxes and not go backwards, some times it's safer just to idle while you plan. But if you were on food stamps you were getting help.:confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) :iagree:The church I left was putting on million dollar additions and not helping the community in the least. It's why I left. :lol::lol::lol: LOL... My last straw with churches in general (some of you know we now attend a homechurch after many years of not attending ANY church -- we grew disillusioned.) was when my ds was in 5th grade. Hubs by then was burnt out on churches and stepped away from ministry. We did not attend anywhere. I finally thought it would be good for ds to attend a local youth group (he is an only child and has Aspergers/etc.) but I did not want to drive a long distance. So I chose a new church in the area -- just down the street from our yuppie neighborhood. Looked just like all of the other megachurches in town. (I'm in TX. There are churches literally on every corner. LOL Bible belt? ;)) I brought him to the Sunday service and was surprised to see the interior of the church -- they had a full size STARBUCKS barista bar near the front enterance with a long line of parishoners. Gourmet coffee for a donation like $1-2. OK. The kids church was impressive. The Junior High area had a full size stage with theater lights and room large enough for a climbing rock wall and cafeteria. Whoa doggie. Son was in hog heaven. I went to the Sunday sermon and was shocked to see a fully decorated stage like a TV (a la TBN) show with more colorful lights and a full band. 2 Huge mega-screens were on each side of the stage. It was LOUD during the worship and more like a rock concert. Hoo boy. I was wishing at that time to sneak back to the coffeehouse and hide somewhere with a book. Every Sunday I attended the Pastor would start his sermon with an outlandish ploy like driving up on stage on a Harley, then next week a Lamborghini, and the week after that a Mazerati. His sermons were more about wealth (or his next building project). I couldn't take it anymore and then tried to skip the sermons and volunteer with the youth on Sundays. Every Sunday I would be assigned a lesson plan to teach. But found out once there the leader would be unorganized or unprepared with her main sermon duties and then decide to do something different. She liked to get the kids riled up with lots of candy and wanted them to like her by being "cool". I began to understand why there were FEW volunteers with the youth. LOL At one lock-in event, the Pastor's kids were so disobedient and out-of-control it was miserable. My youth group leader had no control over anyone and the night was crazy. I turned in my books and told my leader what I thought of her teaching skills -- politely. And told her I had enough of church life in general. Plus my son was not learning anything spiritually. And left. Edited January 13, 2011 by tex-mex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Not to be argumentative - I think we have just touched the surface of the many facets of this system and I am learning from everyone's posts. But to correct justamouse, I never said I had problems with the system helping people. I have problems with people lying, cheating and abusing the system. My single mom received food stamps and public assistance at times in my childhood. Mostly she worked very hard, but at times when she needed it she accepted govt. help. I myself went to college partially on govt. grants. But I am amazed when I don't see a realization that the money has to come from somewhere and that there isn't an endless supply of it. I love my children and want to help them. But I only have so much money. My point is that there has to be limits on how much the govt. system pays out. I can't see where I quoted you? I looked back in the thread, but I'm tired and I might have missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonshine Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 tex-mex - how discouraging. I'm sorry about your experience with the megachurch. I know people who left a church after arriving and being told it was cheerleader Sunday (and that was many years ago). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LibraryLover Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Dickens so often comes to mind when I read these sorts of threads. `Are there no prisons?' asked Scrooge. `Plenty of prisons,' said the gentleman, laying down the pen again. `And the Union workhouses?' demanded Scrooge. `Are they still in operation?' `They are. Still,' returned the gentleman, `I wish I could say they were not.' `The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?' said Scrooge. `Both very busy, sir.' `Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course,' said Scrooge. `I'm very glad to hear it.' `Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude,' returned the gentleman, `a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink. and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?' `Nothing!' Scrooge replied. `You wish to be anonymous?' `I wish to be left alone,' said Scrooge. `Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned -- they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there.' `Many can't go there; and many would rather die.' `If they would rather die,' said Scrooge, `they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 :lol::lol::lol: LOL... My last straw with churches in general (some of you know we now attend a homechurch after many years of not attending ANY church -- we grew disillusioned.) was when my ds was in 5th grade. Hubs by then was burnt out on churches and stepped away from ministry. We did not attend anywhere. I finally thought it would be good for ds to attend a local youth group (he is an only child and has Aspergers/etc.) but I did not want to drive a long distance. So I chose a new church in the area -- just down the street from our yuppie neighborhood. Looked just like all of the other megachurches in town. (I'm in TX. There are churches literally on every corner. LOL Bible belt? ;)) I brought him to the Sunday service and was surprised to see the interior of the church -- they had a full size STARBUCKS barista bar near the front enterance with a long line of parishoners. Gourmet coffee for a donation like $1-2. OK. The kids church was impressive. The Junior High area had a full size stage with theater lights and room large enough for a climbing rock wall and cafeteria. Whoa doggie. Son was in hog heaven. I went to the Sunday sermon and was shocked to see a fully decorated stage like a TV (a la TBN) show with more colorful lights and a full band. 2 Huge mega-screens were on each side of the stage. It was LOUD during the worship and more like a rock concert. Hoo boy. I was wishing at that time to sneak back to the coffeehouse and hide somewhere with a book. Every Sunday I attended the Pastor would start his sermon with an outlandish ploy like driving up on stage on a Harley, then next week a Lamborghini, and the week after that a Mazerati. His sermons were more about wealth (or his next building project). I couldn't take it anymore and then tried to skip the sermons and volunteer with the youth on Sundays. Every Sunday I would be assigned a lesson plan to teach. But found out once there the leader would be unorganized or unprepared with her main sermon duties and then decide to do something different. She liked to get the kids riled up with lots of candy and wanted them to like her by being "cool". I began to understand why there were FEW volunteers with the youth. LOL At one lock-in event, the Pastor's kids were so disobedient and out-of-control it was miserable. My youth group leader had no control over anyone and the night was crazy. I turned in my books and told my leader what I thought of her teaching skills -- politely. And told her I had enough of church life in general. Plus my son was not learning anything spiritually. And left. OK, I have to admit, THAT --I can't even comprehend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cindergretta Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 In terms of the OP - I am grateful public assistance is available. I am grateful it is there for the vulnerable, the marginalized, the needy. In terms of fraud and cheating - of course it happens. Where doesn't it happen? :confused: I wonder about the hyper - focus on people cheating the gov't out of whatever the current amount of welfare is or whatever amount of foodstamps when corporations (CEOs) have robbed people blind - stolen life savings and retirements. What about all the scammers out there tricking the elderly out of their nominal income? IOW, while there is fraud in the system (and privatizing it and making it faith based will not eliminate that aspect but can make it more costly for small churches while making rooting out the cheaters near impossible) the bigger issues of fraud and cheating and scamming are NOT the people on assistance. It is a few *very* greedy people at the top of the food chain. :glare: It is "easy" to decry generational welfare and so forth, but someone mentioned being "enslaved" to the gov't. And as much as I am grateful for the assistance being available, it truly can be a trap. :( And innocent people get stuck in a trap where they just can't get ahead. I don't begrudge them their assistance and I don't fault them for being trapped. I do wish the gov't made it more logical to move off of assistance, kwim? As for not wanting to make more money b/c it leads to more taxes - I am sure there are those who feel like that. And that is their right and their choice. As for my family, we are eager to move up that income/tax chain! :D (Talking with my dad recently and he was talking about someone who was paying $XXXX in taxes. My dad was *laughing* and saying he *wished* he had an income that necessitated paying such high taxes. Dh, mil, and I all feel like my dad! :lol: So I don't think it would be a "dis"incentive for many. But I won't argue that it wouldn't be for some. And I don't fault them for that!) (Can I just say that it is a fallacy that those who work hard make more money while those who are lazy are destined to be destitute? Some of the hardest workers in the country are minimum wage earners. ;) Shift workers who spend *long* hours doing labour - intensive work. I say, let's not confuse the issue! After all, my dentist - late 30s - works 28 hours a week! And he owns a lovely home and a boat and takes awesome vacations. I know this b/c he brags about it while charging me a minor fortune for a cleaning! :lol: I hardly think that qualifies as the hardest working among us! ;) Oh, and he closes down for a week here and a couple of weeks there for office vacations.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex-mex Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) OK, I have to admit, THAT --I can't even comprehend. B-I-Z-A-R-R-E is more like it. ;) And I say this as a AG/Foursquare/Non-demoninational holy roller. LOL Wow. Edited January 13, 2011 by tex-mex Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 LL, I wish I had a like button. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 (edited) But if you were on food stamps you were getting help.:confused: Yup, I got help. And then I was made to feel very ashamed and stopped-even though I worked. I was too young to know I still needed the help very much-and my son moreso than me. We had been on our own since he was one to the time he was 4. So I left my son all over the place while I worked, and had no food and no apartment. Those years were fractured. No stability at all. I did have a hard work ethic though and we made it, but at a serious cost. I rememebr being pulled over in the wee hours of the morning with the baby in the backseat. I had worked overtime-double shift-and he asked me if the babay was mine. Yup. Where was I going? To a friends. Am I getting a ticket? No. Can I go? I have to be back at work in 6 hours. I basically made enough to pay the babysitter and that was it. Obviously now it's much different. Edited January 13, 2011 by justamouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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