Do people - adults - ever "really" change?

[LauraGB]

A minor bit of back story: A while back I posted about a friend of mine who confided that her marriage is predominantly a financial arrangement with kids. This information alone broke my heart for her. She also explained to me what ruined the relationship. They have been living under these circumstances for about 5 years. Presently her dh is feeling a bit...remorseful?...and has "committed" to changing things. She has asked my opinion, and honestly, I don't have good things to say about it. So, I haven't said anything at all. I just sighed a lot and listened. Thankfully the present conversation allowed for me to get away with just that. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to have warm jollies to pass onto her when the conversation resumes.

 

Help me out here.

 

If an adult has an issue, whether it's gambling, p*rn, drugs, alcohol, whatever, will they *ever* have the capacity to *completely* alter their lives? I know an abnormal amount of alcoholics (:001_huh:, but I do), and NONE of them have not fallen off the wagon. I know adult drug addicts (which is entirely different than teens dabbling), and NONE of them have been able to follow through with a permanent change. I know grown men who have chosen p*rn over their families, and no change. Adulterers, s*xual deviants, gamblers...my experience has always been that there is never a permanent change to the core character once it's been established and exercised for a number of years; somehow reality is skewed for these people during important growth periods.

 

So, this has me thinking. Am I wrong? Do people actually change? What does it take? How does it happen? I have to say something to this woman, and what I have to say is not positive. I'd love to see her happy and content, but...I'm not sure her dh *can* do that.

 

What say the all knowing, wise, thoughtful hive?

[Mrs Mungo]

I think people CAN change. I've seen people change and for good. However, it has to be a serious heart-change. It has to be something they've realized is extremely damaging to their life and they have to want to stop being destructive.

 

Sometimes, the change comes after some version of hitting rock-bottom, whether that rock-bottom is having their spouse leave them, losing a job, getting in a life-threatening accident or something worse.

 

I think counseling can help, but I don't think it's strictly necessary.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[Hedgehog]

Yes. But it takes time; also focus, patience and humility on both parts.

 

Please encourage your friend. One of a man's greatest needs is to be respected, and it's my belief that if he doesn't get that from his wife, he may struggle and look for it elsewhere. It's not her fault that he does this, just a way in which she can help out.

 

Saith Hedgehog, who speaks only from her limited experience ;)

[Amy loves Bud]

I don't know, but I can tell you that my dad had a major gambling problem that played a big part in the break up of his first marriage. He saw the light after some horrific things happened regarding the custody of their son. He lived about 55 more years and never gambled again.

 

He was also a smoker and one day said, "I'm done with these coffin nails," and placed his carton of cigarettes on top of the refrigerator. He never smoked another cigarette again, and lived about 35 years after quitting.

 

He was an extraordinarily willful individual :glare:, so I'm pretty sure it's not typical, but it can happen. He was a great father to his other six children and a loving husband to my mom. He worked hard to mend the damage he caused to his firstborn. It was never completely right between Dad and my brother, but when Dad died, they were on fairly good terms.

[jenL]

I think change is entirely possible, and I've seen people achieve and maintain it. However, this change came about once the person stepped out of his/her own DENIAL, accepted he/she needed to change, then chose to take the necessary steps to change through either counseling, turning to faith, removing dangerous/addictive items, allowing someone else to hold him/her accountable or an assortment of all of these.

 

This change does not come about lightly, and it often results in great loss initially. Also, the change may be something the person needs to work on for the rest of his/her life in order to maintain it.

 

People cannot be made to change, however; they need to want it for themselves.

[elegantlion]

I think people CAN change. I've seen people change and for good. However, it has to be a serious heart-change. It has to be something they've realized is extremely damaging to their life and they have to want to stop being destructive.

 

Sometimes, the change comes after some version of hitting rock-bottom., whether that rock-bottom is having their spouse leave them, losing a job, getting in a life-threatening accident or something worse.

 

I think counseling can help, but I don't think it's strictly necessary.

 

:iagree: Yes, people can change.

[*Inna*]

Yes, I have seen an incredible transformations in a few people's lives. Each and every one of them stay this way only by the grace of God.

 

They have hit the rock bottom in their life and addiction. Only then they realized that without Jesus they are done. They are committed to their relationship with the Lord.

 

I don't know if that's what you were expecting to hear...

[kalanamak]

 

What say the all knowing, wise, thoughtful hive?

 

People do change. People do mature (some go the other way:glare:). If his behavior was an affair, I consider this more "curable" than child porn or polysubstance abuse, partly because it is simply more "normal" and "natural" than polysubstance abuse, but also because, well, people do get older and hormones fade in many.

 

If he did this five years ago and has walked the walk for 5 years since, I'd be inclined to start some trust. Can't say I'd "fall in love again", but 5 years good behavior would win some friendliness from me. Depends on what he did, however.

 

She can't force her feelings. It is nice she has someone to talk to (you).

[kwickimom]

YES people can do AMAZING things. People can change. I have seen many people turn their lives around. It is hard and they need support, but they can do it.

[LauraGB]

Yes, I have seen an incredible transformations in a few people's lives. Each and every one of them stay this way only by the grace of God.

 

They have hit the rock bottom in their life and addiction. Only then they realized that without Jesus they are done. They are committed to their relationship with the Lord.

 

I don't know if that's what you were expecting to hear...

 

:) I completely understand what role faith can play in an individual's life. My friend, for instance, has relied upon her faith to get her through everything she's ever been through (and, holy cow - her life's story is a doozey - seriously.).

 

However, what if the individual who has to do the changing isn't all that...holy? Or looking for God? And that possibility(faith in a god) is not within the realm of his reality? As in, he'll need to work it all on his own, and the only faith she can have is in her dh? Because, in this particular case, I'm quite certain that's all she's ever going to get; faith in him to work it alone.

[Mallorie]

Might I suggest some books? It is with Christian content, but anyone would be able to apply the basic principles to their lives.

 

It's called "Boundaries" by Drs. Cloud and Townsend. There is a book by that name, and they also have other titles such as "Boundaries with Kids", "Boundaries in Marriage", etc. I think you'll find they have very high reviews, and I would strongly suggest your friend invest the time in reading it. Whether she decides to continue in the relationship or not, this will help her in a MAJOR way to establish what is healthy, what is not, and what is simply non-negotiable. He undoubtedly has some major changes to make, and this will teach her how to walk alongside him, without enabling him, or allowing him to do further damage to her.

 

My issues were with a particular family relationship, not my own marriage, but it is currently changing my life. HIGHLY recommend.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Mallorie

[Jennifer in MI]

I pray that they can. I have a brother who has been in rehab for 5 months now. I pray that he truly has changed. He says all the right things, but he always has.

 

He'll be here for Christmas. Please, God, let this Christmas go well . . .

[joannqn]

Yes, they can change but it is difficult and takes a lot of effort. My father has been a recovering alcoholic for...well, I don't know how many years...in the teens, at least. At this point, I actually believe he will not drink again.

 

I know another couple who's DH has been free of porn now for years.

 

I, personally, was a very negative, deeply depressed, completely co-dependent, seriously suicidal person up until 7 years ago. I've been on the depressed side at least since 5th-6th grade (I'm 36 now). I haven't been on anti-depressants for 6 years now. I'm no where near as negative. I'm usually pretty happy. I'm not co-dependent much. I don't even complain very much anymore. I think I've changed a lot; my friends certain think I have. I've been working on it for 8 years though.

[LauraGB]

People do change. People do mature (some go the other way:glare:). If his behavior was an affair, I consider this more "curable" than child porn or polysubstance abuse, partly because it is simply more "normal" and "natural" than polysubstance abuse, but also because, well, people do get older and hormones fade in many.

 

If he did this five years ago and has walked the walk for 5 years since, I'd be inclined to start some trust. Can't say I'd "fall in love again", but 5 years good behavior would win some friendliness from me. Depends on what he did, however.

 

 

 

From what I understand, these past 5 years have been his lying to her about his behaviors - not that he's been a good husband (or even a faithful one). He has issues with p*rn; on the one hand, I think possibly by his still lying about it (of which she has ample proof) that he's ashamed, on the other hand, his family hangs in the balance. She can just bite the money bit at any moment and call it a segment of her life and move on. And I have to wonder if this isn't where the recent "change of heart" came from.

 

So my honest answer to her would be to run far and fast and consider the deal past. But I'm not sure that's the right advice.

[mcconnellboys]

I think that they *can* change, but that the longer the bad habits are in place the harder it will be for them to do it in a meaningful way....

[nono]

I've seen people change without having to hit rock bottom. One in particular that made quite an impression on me:

 

I've seen one half of a partnership say, "I know you, and I know what you do. I love you anyway, you rascal. I will do my best to live with this." The promise to love and hang in there from the other spouse instead of condemnation moved mountains. It taught me a lot to observe the relationship evolve over the years. Now, that relationship didn't involve an addiction, just abuse/overuse of something.

[LauraGB]

 

I, personally, was a very negative, deeply depressed, completely co-dependent, seriously suicidal person up until 7 years ago. I've been on the depressed side at least since 5th-6th grade (I'm 36 now). I haven't been on anti-depressants for 6 years now. I'm no where near as negative. I'm usually pretty happy. I'm not co-dependent much. I don't even complain very much anymore. I think I've changed a lot; my friends certain think I have. I've been working on it for 8 years though.

 

:grouphug: and :thumbup:. Good for you joannqn - you simply rock (even from the other side of the screen, my friend).

[joannqn]

That's a difficult addiction to change. If he is really repentant, he'll be willing to be completely open to her. He needs to have no passwords on his computer, never use the computer in private (ie. in the living room only), allow her to have some sort of snitch program on the computer, etc. By doing this, he is saying that he is willing to change and will do anything to keep himself away from it. He should also be in some sort of recovery program, like a 12 step group.

 

She, too, would benefit from a support group. Though this isn't alcohol, something like Al-Anon would still apply because she is the spouse of an addicted husband. The meetings would help her set boundaries and not enable him. She might also want to explore what led her to a man with these kinds of issues; was her family of origin dysfunctional? If so, ACA (adult children anonymous) would be appropriate as well.

[Perry]

I do think people can change, but more often they don't.

 

Many people with addictions also have a personality disorder. Even if they are able to stop the addictive behavior, the personality disorder is still there.

 

My alcoholic mother quit drinking when I was 10. Unfortunately, she was still an extremely challenging person, and she struggled in many other ways. Life with her was very, very difficult, even though she wasn't drinking.

[*Inna*]

I'm sorry about your friend's situation. :grouphug:

 

Lying is usually not a sign of a changed heart.

[kalanamak]

 

My alcoholic mother quit drinking when I was 10. Unfortunately, she was still an extremely challenging person, and she struggled in many other ways. Life with her was very, very difficult, even though she wasn't drinking.

 

This is why marriage sometimes fail when the alcoholic stops drinking. The rage is more common, or the sober half loses all hope that it will be *better* after the booze is gone.

 

On re-reading, it looks like hubby is just NOW thinking of cleaning up his act. It is typical for the cleaner-upper to say "and now I deserve to be treated as if nothing happened". Usually, if the reformed person is insincere, a mere "let's see how it goes for 6 months" will throw them into a rage or panic or blame-throwing ("if you were a decent person, you'd support me in my efforts", as if hopping into the sack is "support").

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

I do think people can change, but more often they don't.

 

 

 

:iagree::iagree:

[simka2]

I'm going to answer some things seperately. I can tell you really feel for your friend and that is admirable. Truthfully, all you can do is be a safe person for her to talk to. I wouldn't give her any advice, accept to find her own counselor.

 

:) I completely understand what role faith can play in an individual's life. My friend, for instance, has relied upon her faith to get her through everything she's ever been through (and, holy cow - her life's story is a doozey - seriously.). This is a telling statement. She may need to look at her past and what skills she has picked up that lend her towards unhealthy relationship choices. A proffessional would need to help her has that out.

 

However, what if the individual who has to do the changing isn't all that...holy? Or looking for God?

 

This is probly a good thing (and I say that as a christian) it will be easier for him to get to the bottom of why his shame drives him to porn, if religion isn't in the mix...at first. And that possibility(faith in a god) is not within the realm of his reality? As in, he'll need to work it all on his own, and the only faith she can have is in her dh?

 

She would be very unwise to put any faith in her dh. This has nothing to do with whether he "can" change his behaviors. It is an extreme sign of co-dependency. Because, in this particular case, I'm quite certain that's all she's ever going to get; faith in him to work it alone.

 

I would strongly encourage her to read Co-Dependent No More. There are many women who are successfully married to various addicts, but it takes a lot of support.

[simka2]

This is why marriage sometimes fail when the alcoholic stops drinking. The rage is more common, or the sober half loses all hope that it will be *better* after the booze is gone.

 

On re-reading, it looks like hubby is just NOW thinking of cleaning up his act. It is typical for the cleaner-upper to say "and now I deserve to be treated as if nothing happened". Usually, if the reformed person is insincere, a mere "let's see how it goes for 6 months" will throw them into a rage or panic or blame-throwing ("if you were a decent person, you'd support me in my efforts", as if hopping into the sack is "support").[/QUOTE]

 

:iagree:She will need to take steps to take care of herself, regardless of what he dh chooses.

[simka2]

That's a difficult addiction to change. If he is really repentant, he'll be willing to be completely open to her. He needs to have no passwords on his computer, never use the computer in private (ie. in the living room only), allow her to have some sort of snitch program on the computer, etc. By doing this, he is saying that he is willing to change and will do anything to keep himself away from it. He should also be in some sort of recovery program, like a 12 step group.

 

I agree and disagree with some of those things. Yes he should be "willing" to take those steps, but it will be very unhealthy for them both if she is "monitoring" his computer usage. they really need a wise 3rd party for that. Ever time she goes to check will "trigger" her.

 

She, too, would benefit from a support group. Though this isn't alcohol, something like Al-Anon would still apply because she is the spouse of an addicted husband. The meetings would help her set boundaries and not enable him. She might also want to explore what led her to a man with these kinds of issues; was her family of origin dysfunctional? If so, ACA (adult children anonymous) would be appropriate as well.

:iagree:and there are groups for this.

[Liz CA]

However, it has to be a serious heart-change. It has to be something they've realized is extremely damaging to their life and they have to want to stop being destructive.

 

 

 

Key thing. Right there.

 

"When the pain of continuing on the path is greater than the pain of change!" Dr. Henry Cloud

[simka2]

Yes. But it takes time; also focus, patience and humility on both parts.

 

Please encourage your friend. One of a man's greatest needs is to be respected, and it's my belief that if he doesn't get that from his wife, he may struggle and look for it elsewhere. It's not her fault that he does this, just a way in which she can help out.

 

Saith Hedgehog, who speaks only from her limited experience ;)

 

I do want to take a moment to address this...gently I hope:001_smile:. She could be the most beautiful, most respectful wife ever...and he would still be tempted.

 

She can find ways to show respect for his positive efforts, but it has to be authentic. If he is unworthy of respect right now...he just is.

 

I know you weren't blameing her in any way, but this "men need respect" issue causes a lot of problems in these types of situations.

 

In a healthy marriage...it can be a good concept.

[Mrs Mungo]

It is typical for the cleaner-upper to say "and now I deserve to be treated as if nothing happened".

 

I can't even tell you how often I've seen this sort of thing happen. :glare:

 

My dh usually gets to deal with the fallout once a spouse has been pushed over the edge after lots of gaslighting and episodes like the one above.

[simka2]

A minor bit of back story: A while back I posted about a friend of mine who confided that her marriage is predominantly a financial arrangement with kids. This information alone broke my heart for her. She also explained to me what ruined the relationship. They have been living under these circumstances for about 5 years. Presently her dh is feeling a bit...remorseful?...and has "committed" to changing things. She has asked my opinion, and honestly, I don't have good things to say about it. So, I haven't said anything at all. I just sighed a lot and listened. Thankfully the present conversation allowed for me to get away with just that. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to have warm jollies to pass onto her when the conversation resumes.

 

Help me out here.

 

If an adult has an issue, whether it's gambling, p*rn, drugs, alcohol, whatever, will they *ever* have the capacity to *completely* alter their lives? I know an abnormal amount of alcoholics (:001_huh:, but I do), and NONE of them have not fallen off the wagon. I know adult drug addicts (which is entirely different than teens dabbling), and NONE of them have been able to follow through with a permanent change. I know grown men who have chosen p*rn over their families, and no change. Adulterers, s*xual deviants, gamblers...my experience has always been that there is never a permanent change to the core character once it's been established and exercised for a number of years; somehow reality is skewed for these people during important growth periods.

 

So, this has me thinking. Am I wrong? Do people actually change? What does it take? How does it happen? I have to say something to this woman, and what I have to say is not positive. I'd love to see her happy and content, but...I'm not sure her dh *can* do that.

 

What say the all knowing, wise, thoughtful hive?

 

 

Yes, people can change...no doubt!

 

That doesn't mean she doesn't take steps to find her own healing and move on with her life. There are ton of factors a wife will have to weigh. One of the first is "am I safe?" Is she being exposed to std's, and things like that.

 

You can pm me for resources :001_smile:

Take care and encourage her to take care of herself!!!!

[Truscifi]

:) I completely understand what role faith can play in an individual's life. My friend, for instance, has relied upon her faith to get her through everything she's ever been through (and, holy cow - her life's story is a doozey - seriously.).

 

However, what if the individual who has to do the changing isn't all that...holy? Or looking for God? And that possibility(faith in a god) is not within the realm of his reality? As in, he'll need to work it all on his own, and the only faith she can have is in her dh? Because, in this particular case, I'm quite certain that's all she's ever going to get; faith in him to work it alone.

 

Depends on the individual and what needs to be changed. Dh is a recovering alcoholic. His drinking and the things he did while drunk (some of which he didn't even remember doing) nearly ruined our marriage. He has been sober almost 3 years now. It is possible he could fall off the wagon, but he works hard not to. If he does I will try to keep in mind how hard he has worked and help him through it. He's not at all religious or spiritual.

 

My father is also a recovering alcoholic, sober 2 years now (yes, I see the pattern). Sort of vaguely spiritual.

 

A good friend is a recovering drug addict (heroin was her drug of choice), sober 16 years. Goes to church every week, but doesn't credit religion with her sobriety, though she believes it helps to be involved with people who lead a different type of life.

 

However, I have never known or heard of a pedophile or sex addict making a real change.

[LauraGB]

She could be the most beautiful, most respectful wife ever...and he would still be tempted.

 

She can find ways to show respect for his positive efforts, but it has to be authentic. If he is unworthy of respect right now...he just is.

 

I know you weren't blameing her in any way, but this "men need respect" issue causes a lot of problems in these types of situations.

 

In a healthy marriage...it can be a good concept.

 

And this is what throws me off. Not just in her situation, but in these sorts of situations in general. An adult who has troubles counts on those around him/her. If this individual finds that even without support in degrees from the people in his life that "reality" is just too hard, they often will revert to what they know; somehow, regardless, it is easier for them. And thus, they leave all those supporters in the mud. So then, when the mood strikes them (or they feel it's time to alter the behavior), they call on those supporters again. And then again. And then again. Which is why I sincerely question the adult ability to really shake it, whatever "it" may be.

[simka2]

Depends on the individual and what needs to be changed. Dh is a recovering alcoholic. His drinking and the things he did while drunk (some of which he didn't even remember doing) nearly ruined our marriage. He has been sober almost 3 years now. It is possible he could fall off the wagon, but he works hard not to. If he does I will try to keep in mind how hard he has worked and help him through it. He's not at all religious or spiritual.

 

My father is also a recovering alcoholic, sober 2 years now (yes, I see the pattern). Sort of vaguely spiritual.

 

A good friend is a recovering drug addict (heroin was her drug of choice), sober 16 years. Goes to church every week, but doesn't credit religion with her sobriety, though she believes it helps to be involved with people who lead a different type of life.

 

However, I have never known or heard of a pedophile or sex addict making a real change.

 

It's the same as an alcoholic. They will always be an alcoholic, sex addict, you name it, but they can be a recovering/non-practicing_______.

 

Truthfully, I have no experience with pedophiles that's on the opposite end of the spectrum from my comfort level :001_smile:

[catalinakel]

I pray that they can. I have a brother who has been in rehab for 5 months now. I pray that he truly has changed. He says all the right things, but he always has.

 

He'll be here for Christmas. Please, God, let this Christmas go well . . .

 

:grouphug:

[simka2]

And this is what throws me off. Not just in her situation, but in these sorts of situations in general. An adult who has troubles counts on those around him/her. If this individual finds that even without support in degrees from the people in his life that "reality" is just too hard, they often will revert to what they know; somehow, regardless, it is easier for them. And thus, they leave all those supporters in the mud. So then, when the mood strikes them (or they feel it's time to alter the behavior), they call on those supporters again. And then again. And then again. Which is why I sincerely question the adult ability to really shake it, whatever "it" may be.

 

I wrote you a huge response an it got lost :glare:. Counseling will deal with both the why, support, and healthy copeing skills issues.

 

Otherwise, I'm not quite following your logic. Sorry, it's not quite coming thru cyberspace ;).

[texasmama]

Change is possible but very difficult - or more people would make changes.

[simka2]

And this is what throws me off. Not just in her situation, but in these sorts of situations in general. An adult who has troubles counts on those around him/her. If this individual finds that even without support in degrees from the people in his life that "reality" is just too hard, they often will revert to what they know; somehow, regardless, it is easier for them. And thus, they leave all those supporters in the mud. So then, when the mood strikes them (or they feel it's time to alter the behavior), they call on those supporters again. And then again. And then again. Which is why I sincerely question the adult ability to really shake it, whatever "it" may be.

 

 

I do want to say...there are no absolutes. My mom has been sober 7yrs, her sponsor has been sober 50 years.

 

I know she takes it a day at a time and tries not to "future trip."

[LauraGB]

I wrote you a huge response an it got lost :glare:. Counseling will deal with both the why, support, and healthy copeing skills issues.

 

Otherwise, I'm not quite following your logic. Sorry, it's not quite coming thru cyberspace ;).

 

Sorry - I have trouble getting what makes sense in my head out of my mouth (or fingers, as it may be :)).

 

I guess what I meant was that she has been supportive in the past. He inevitably found that dealing with real life vs his view of real life was too difficult and reverted back to his original, comfortable behavior (no matter how skewed it may have been), leaving her to fend for herself (because she was intricately entwined in his "change"). After something like that happens, the supporter becomes a bit...jaded?...about that person's recovery attempts. So, from the supporter's perspective, we are left with something like "what's the point?" but maybe still a little hope. From the addict's perspective, I would think it would be easier to go back to what they have known for so long; tripping and falling is hard, so why not go back to that which you already know?

 

It all seems so typically expected to me. And yes, I am jaded, which is why I'm not sure what to tell her.

 

Does that make more sense?

[Peela]

I agree that people can change...but more often than not they dont, or it is a very rough ride with many times going back to the old pattern.

 

However...I dont think the picture is so sad because either way....the woman needs to do the same thing. She needs to take care of herself and do her OWN therapy (whether with a professional, or just a deep honesty to do the work herself) because these relationships are always a pattern of 2- the woman needs to move out of the victim role. She heals her side of the equation- she gets real, cleans up her own co dependence, stops being the enabler and gets healthy psychologically, values herself deeply...and either he changes too or he doesn't. Either way...she is ok. If she realises it is healthier for her to leave...she will be strong enough to and to move on to better things. If he is changing, they can truly help each other.

 

Focusing on him is not the answer. You cant change other people. Either he changes or he doesnt. She needs to focus on what she can change- her own self respect, her valuing herself, and her ability to stand on her own feet and act on her own behalf.

[Mrs Mungo]

I guess, ultimately? I see it like this: she has to decide what sort of marriage she wants and deserves.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[Abigail4476]

People can definitely change, although there are some people I may not trust even if they did [appear to] make a change. It would depend on what their problem was and how dangerous it was to other people.

 

I know people personally who have turned their lives around after being addicted to alcohol and drugs, and also a person who used to be physically abusive. Being a Christian, I believe that God can help people with that, but ultimately even He is a gentleman, and people have to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Unless the person in question dislikes the way they are and wants to change, it will never happen.

 

From your story, I would think it plausible that your friend and her husband could turn a business arrangement into a love affair, but then that's my romantic side showing itself. :) Love isn't just a feeling; it's an act, and a committed one at that. Sometimes putting love into practice gives birth to feelings and emotions at a later date.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Abigail4476

[OrganicAnn]

People change every day. Whether it is the change that is desired is a different matter. Often it needs 1) desire to change 2) strategies to help change 3) supportive people to support the change. Like anything hard it often doesn't happen in one effort and yes supporters often feel used when the person backslides.

[simka2]

I agree that people can change...but more often than not they dont, or it is a very rough ride with many times going back to the old pattern.

 

However...I dont think the picture is so sad because either way....the woman needs to do the same thing. She needs to take care of herself and do her OWN therapy (whether with a professional, or just a deep honesty to do the work herself) because these relationships are always a pattern of 2- the woman needs to move out of the victim role. She heals her side of the equation- she gets real, cleans up her own co dependence, stops being the enabler and gets healthy psychologically, values herself deeply...and either he changes too or he doesn't. Either way...she is ok. If she realises it is healthier for her to leave...she will be strong enough to and to move on to better things. If he is changing, they can truly help each other.

 

Focusing on him is not the answer. You cant change other people. Either he changes or he doesnt. She needs to focus on what she can change- her own self respect, her valuing herself, and her ability to stand on her own feet and act on her own behalf.

 

Yup!!!!

[Abigail4476]

...Focusing on him is not the answer. You cant change other people. Either he changes or he doesnt. She needs to focus on what she can change- her own self respect, her valuing herself, and her ability to stand on her own feet and act on her own behalf.

:iagree:

[simka2]

Sorry - I have trouble getting what makes sense in my head out of my mouth (or fingers, as it may be :)).

 

I guess what I meant was that she has been supportive in the past. He inevitably found that dealing with real life vs his view of real life was too difficult and reverted back to his original, comfortable behavior (no matter how skewed it may have been), leaving her to fend for herself (because she was intricately entwined in his "change"). After something like that happens, the supporter becomes a bit...jaded?...about that person's recovery attempts. So, from the supporter's perspective, we are left with something like "what's the point?" but maybe still a little hope. From the addict's perspective, I would think it would be easier to go back to what they have known for so long; tripping and falling is hard, so why not go back to that which you already know?

 

It all seems so typically expected to me. And yes, I am jaded, which is why I'm not sure what to tell her.

 

Does that make more sense?

 

Ah, I think I see a bit more of what you are saying. Remember when I said it wouldn't be healthy for her to be the "computer" monitor...same concept here.

 

I would venture to say, that she was "too" involved in his recovery. That's the point...it's HIS! She needs to find her own.

[Susan in KY]

I think so. I was talking last night with a man who has made an amazing transformation. However, I have never seen transformation happen outside the context of a committed relationship with Jesus Christ.

[Rosie_0801]

From what I understand, these past 5 years have been his lying to her about his behaviors - not that he's been a good husband (or even a faithful one). He has issues with p*rn; on the one hand, I think possibly by his still lying about it (of which she has ample proof) that he's ashamed, on the other hand, his family hangs in the balance. She can just bite the money bit at any moment and call it a segment of her life and move on. And I have to wonder if this isn't where the recent "change of heart" came from.

 

 

I've been reading some stuff about brain chemistry recently and apparently low dopamine levels in men can manifest in these sorts of ways. Biochemistry makes my brain glaze over so I've only been reading it at pop-science level but I thought I'd mention it. Willpower and desire to change isn't enough combat biology, if that's causing some of the trouble and maybe looking into this will make your friend and her hubby feel like there is something, I dunno, real (for the want of a better word) they can do. We've only got so much willpower and we need it to cover a lot of actions, if we can reduce the amount of willpower needed by getting a diet change, exercise or sleeping pattern change to do some of that work, all the better.

 

Rosie

Edited December 19, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[kalanamak]

I guess, ultimately? I see it like this: she has to decide what sort of marriage she wants and deserves.

 

Or what she can afford, or what is best for the kids....

[kalanamak]

I think so. I was talking last night with a man who has made an amazing transformation. However, I have never seen transformation happen outside the context of a committed relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

As part of my professional training, I chose to do "90 in 90" (90 AA meetings in 90 days, a common tact taken by someone really trying to quit), doing an early morning group and going to have breakfast with whomever was willing afterwards. I met many people who has such a damaged relationship with Christianity (childhood), they considered jettisoning it fundamental to their recovery.

 

I've been close to non-believers (as one) throughout my life, and the common AA feeling for a non-religious person is to view the "higher power" as the power of the group. It is not hopeless if the flawed person does not turn to Christianity.

[Catwoman]

I would suspect that your friend isn't going to leave this guy, no matter what you tell her. I also suspect that she would have to be a gullible fool to believe that he's going to change, just because he says he is. (I assume he has made all sorts of similar promises in the past, and never lived up to them.)

 

Additionally, by staying with him and accepting his lies (or trying to "help" him change,) she's enabling him to continue to treat her poorly. After all these years, he figures she'll never leave, no matter what he does, and an occasional empty promise followed by a short period of "good behavior" is all it will take to keep her in her place.

 

My biggest concern for her is that she may have caught any number of awful diseases from this guy. I hope she has been tested for them, to be sure she is healthy.

 

Of course, people can change. But from what you've said, it doesn't really sound like this guy particularly wants to change. His past behavior indicates that he's telling her what she wants to hear, and that he'll soon be back to his old ways (if he ever really stopped them.)

 

If I had to give the woman a few pieces of advice, I'd tell her that if she wants to stick around and see how it plays out, that's fine and I truly hope it works out for her, but in the meantime, she should be sure she is doing everything possible to ensure her own financial security in case things go south again. She should consult an attorney to learn her legal rights and how she can protect her assets, should the need arise. She should be sure she is well-educated and employable. And if she's an emotional wreck, she should get herself some counseling. Above all, she should put herself and her needs first, and not get so caught up in "helping" her husband that she loses herself in the process.

 

Sorry if I sound cynical. I hope I'm wrong about this guy, but in case I'm not, I hope the wife is looking out for her own interests.

 

Cat

[LauraGB]

I would suspect that your friend isn't going to leave this guy, no matter what you tell her. I also suspect that she would have to be a gullible fool to believe that he's going to change, just because he says he is. (I assume he has made all sorts of similar promises in the past, and never lived up to them.)

 

Additionally, by staying with him and accepting his lies (or trying to "help" him change,) she's enabling him to continue to treat her poorly. After all these years, he figures she'll never leave, no matter what he does, and an occasional empty promise followed by a short period of "good behavior" is all it will take to keep her in her place.

 

My biggest concern for her is that she may have caught any number of awful diseases from this guy. I hope she has been tested for them, to be sure she is healthy.

 

Of course, people can change. But from what you've said, it doesn't really sound like this guy particularly wants to change. His past behavior indicates that he's telling her what she wants to hear, and that he'll soon be back to his old ways (if he ever really stopped them.)

 

If I had to give the woman a few pieces of advice, I'd tell her that if she wants to stick around and see how it plays out, that's fine and I truly hope it works out for her, but in the meantime, she should be sure she is doing everything possible to ensure her own financial security in case things go south again. She should consult an attorney to learn her legal rights and how she can protect her assets, should the need arise. She should be sure she is well-educated and employable. And if she's an emotional wreck, she should get herself some counseling. Above all, she should put herself and her needs first, and not get so caught up in "helping" her husband that she loses herself in the process.

 

Sorry if I sound cynical. I hope I'm wrong about this guy, but in case I'm not, I hope the wife is looking out for her own interests.

 

Cat

 

No need to be sorry - that pretty much sums up what I was thinking as I was speaking to her this evening. I just don't want to tell her that... I guess I don't want to feel bad about telling her that...