Money and Missionaries and Questions

[Homemama2]

Wow. I never realized (I guess I'm naive) that some missionaries lived like this. I go to a small church that supports 5 families right now and of those I know 4 of them personally. I've seen the pictures of their falling apart homes, run-down cars etc. They send us reports, pictures etc of what's going on. They work night and day to do God's work. I find these other "missionaries" very disturbing. I wonder what they will say when they are standing before the Lord some day trying to explain why they wasted His time and resources on themselves. There needs to be some accountability (although what really bothers me is that this is an issue at all.)

[RoughCollie]

I wonder what they will say when they are standing before the Lord some day trying to explain why they wasted His time and resources on themselves.

 

Wouldn't that be true of all of us?

 

There may be good reasons for some missionaries to live in abject poverty, reasons that further their mission, but if it isn't necessary, I see no reason why they should have to suffer in this life.

[Homemama2]

Wouldn't that be true of all of us?

 

 

Absolutely. I believe each of us will have to account for what we've done. And since "there is not one righteous, no not one" that would include all of us. I certainly hope not all missionaries live in poverty. If they have the funds coming in to support that lifestyle, that's wonderful. Let's just hope they are using their money wisely, not wastefully.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

Absolutely. I believe each of us will have to account for what we've done. And since "there is not one righteous, no not one" that would include all of us. I certainly hope not all missionaries live in poverty. If they have the funds coming in to support that lifestyle, that's wonderful. Let's just hope they are using their money wisely, not wastefully.

 

 

I agree completely. While there are a few missionaries I know who may not be handling things correctly, there are 10 times as many that are sacrificing each day to reach out to the people that they are called to minister to. Not only is there a financial sacrifice, but, they sacrifice not being near family and friends and in their own culture. There's a lot of things that we deal with on the mission field I wouldn't have expected or could have been prepared for.

 

I posted that I don't believe missionaries should live in poverty unless God has called them to do that--and I don't believe missionaries should live in extravagance unless God has led them in that direction (and I know some who have been led to minister to the upper crust here and have to maintain a lifestyle compatible with those people to whom they are ministering).

 

Bottom line--accountability. It's important to know who you are accountable to. Many of my missionary friends have high accountability for every dollar they spend. Dh and I are accountable to our director and our sending church. If there is a question, we can produce receipts and an accounting of where designated funds have gone.

 

Anyway, it's always good to know where donations go when you send them to a ministry, a missionary, or a non-profit.

[Jean in Newcastle]

All members of all cultures, all socio-economic groups and all races need the gospel.

 

I know a woman who used to be a high fashion model before being saved. She and her husband are missionaries - to that group of people and others associated with it. She has not flung out her haute couture for potato sacks because she is now a missionary. She does not mislead those who support them and tell them that their primary ministry is to pig farmers. She had considerable financial assets before becoming a missionary and she lives on much of those assets. But she does have legitimate needs for Bible study materials, AV materials etc. and her supporters gladly supply the means for those things as well as provide unstinting prayer support for them.

 

Some countries have a very wide disparity in the socio-economic levels of the people. In such a society you are going to have a wider disparity between those missionaries called to minister to the people in those socio-economic groups. God did not call us to only minister to the downtrodden, though of course we are called to do that. It may be difficult for the rich young ruler to come to the Lord but he needs to be evangelized as well. And it makes sense to live in the community of the people you are ministering to whether that is a poor outlying village or a higher class gated community.

 

Deceit and greed are wrong. If either of those things are going on, they need to be condemned. Open acknowledgment of who you are called to minister to is not wrong. Being called to minister to those with greater wealth is not wrong either.

 

I am actually more interested in if missionaries are giving a clear gospel devoid of extra legalistic strings attached or without being so watered down that it is no gospel at all. That is a much bigger and more spiritually devastating problem in missions.

[Anne in CA]

I have stayed out of this thread, but as it is nearing it's end, and I am the consumate "thread killer" I will say what is on my mind.

 

I just got back from spending two weeks with my cousin who is a missionary in Tanzania. She lives in a large beautiful home, drives a used four wheel drive, she and her husband share a car and her husband takes the crummy city buses everywhere, and sends her kids to an expensive school the quality of which she could never afford in the US. Most people who support her that I know could never afford the fancy school her kids go to, although it is not the international school and most of the other kids who go there are wealthy Tanzanians, making her kids almost the only white kids there, but that is another thread.

 

Now, here is the flip side. While we were there she worked about 65 hours a week, and her husband worked about 90 hours, he was only with his family to eat dinner. I am counting the time they were stuck in Dar es Salaam traffic or on the bus as time working, because they sure don't do it for fun. They ate a lot of rice and beans, even though they have a maid to cook for them. Both of them worked way too much to take an hour to cook dinner every day. On the day the maid has off they just eat hot dogs and popcorn, because they worked all day at church and are bone tired. Did I mention the power and water go out randomly?

 

There is an amazing work of God in their church. People are giving up addictions, healed of cancer, they minister to 1200 street children every week. They help people with AIDS start businesses. They have an international church where God is worshipped in Chinese, Hindi, Swahili and English every week. They are where God wants them.

 

The ONE perk they have, is the wondeful education their children recieved. Their oldest child is on a half scholarship to a private university here in the states now. The other two will probably also get scholarships because of the education they are getting. You could never count their home as a perk, because they are never there to enjoy it. It is necessary for the safety of their children. You could not count their car as a perk because they are sick of the time they spend in it.

 

I do not believe that anyone who knows how hard my cousin works could begrudge her children the opportunity they have. They also do a mountain of school work to go with the "privilige" of their education and don't play expensive sports or take music lessons or other things that many people in the US have their children enjoy.

 

There are a LOT of sides to this issue.

[Laura Corin]

I do not believe that anyone who knows how hard my cousin works could begrudge her children the opportunity they have.

 

The discussion has been of missionaries who have extremely comfortable lifestyles and are not working hard.

 

Laura

[KingM]

To be fair, this is not just a Christian missionary issue. One problem with aid work in general is how much of the money is used to pay for overhead, fund-raising, etc. I'm guessing there are missions where almost every penny does what it is meant for and others where the money funds a lavish lifestyle for a few well-connected people. It is the job of individuals and congregations to do a little research so they donate their hard-earned money to the first kind of mission and not the second.

[KingM]

One other point. With any thread, you're only seeing the point of view of that poster. I'm sure in many cases, the other side of the issue would be illuminating. However, we don't have that viewpoint, so all we can do is trust the word of the person posting, barring obvious red flags, of course. The OP didn't raise any red flags, so far as I can see. Therefore, I will trust that she saw what she said she saw. Saying she didn't actually see that because it's hard to imagine kind of misses the point of the thread.

[Sophia]

Can someone explain it or give me an attitude adjustment? :confused:

 

In Footprints of a Pilgrim, Ruth Bell Graham shared a story wherein she donated her own lunch card at college, to a girl who could not afford one.

Ruth says she was often hungry at lunch but felt good about her sacrifice until she saw the recipient of her lunches wearing a beautiful coat that Ruth herself could never have afforded.

She wrestled with bitterness until God spoke to her and let her know that her sacrifice was to Him and about her relationship with Him. Ruth was not to concern herself with how else God chose to bless the other girl.

 

The tithing Christian is being taken on a faith journey that has nothing to do with what kind of house, car or education others receive.

 

You can look from your perspective and feel supporters are getting fleeced, but God's perspective is that through their sacrifice, many have learned that he is Jehovah Jireh~the God who provides.

 

Unless you have proof of blatant dishonesty or corruption, I'd not give those missionary's possessions another thought.

[Hillary in KS]

In Footprints of a Pilgrim, Ruth Bell Graham shared a story wherein she donated her own lunch card at college, to a girl who could not afford one.

Ruth says she was often hungry at lunch but felt good about her sacrifice until she saw the recipient of her lunches wearing a beautiful coat that Ruth herself could never have afforded.

She wrestled with bitterness until God spoke to her and let her know that her sacrifice was to Him and about her relationship with Him. Ruth was not to concern herself with how else God chose to bless the other girl.

 

The tithing Christian is being taken on a faith journey that has nothing to do with what kind of house, car or education others receive.

 

You can look from your perspective and feel supporters are getting fleeced, but God's perspective is that through their sacrifice, many have learned that he is Jehovah Jireh~the God who provides.

 

Unless you have proof of blatant dishonesty or corruption, I'd not give those missionary's possessions another thought.

:iagree:

 

:thumbup:

Yes. This.

[lionfamily1999]

I suppose we should all pray that God only blesses us as much as the world is willing to accept as proper.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I suppose we should all pray that God only blesses us as much as the world is willing to accept as proper.

 

:smilielol5:

[Hillary in KS]

I suppose we should all pray that God only blesses us as much as the world is willing to accept as proper.

 

:lol:

[jld]

It sounds like people will always try to justify what they are doing.

 

You are right to question these things, Heather. Reform starts with questioning. And don't be surprised that questioning is condemned as judgment. There are many people in every institution who have a vested interest in keeping things as they are. They protect their turf, and they come up with reasons for doing so.

 

From what I am reading here, the evangelical church has a distinct message, and they want that message spread. Christianity in general is not good enough; this distinct message is what is important. Evangelicals feel obligated to support the spreading of this distinct mesage, and many are just glad not to have to go abroad and do it themselves, so they really don't care how well those doing it are living (this is what I have understood from what has been written here). They don't want to see their friends "picked on", and so they cry judgment. They certainly don't want the validity of the message criticized; enough questioning could lead to the collapse of the whole institution they believe in.

 

I don't know. I don't remember Jesus or his followers having a different lifestyle based on the people they were with. What I remember (and it has been a long time since I read the New Testament), is that if Paul was with rich people, he may have benefitted from their generosity, but that he didn't change his lifestyle based on who he was with. He seemed to be the same wherever he went. I don't recall Jesus saying he needed to be one way with rich people so as to have more influence on them, and another way with poor people, so as to have the maximum influence on them. He seemed to be the same way no matter who he was with. And I just can't see Jesus concerned with business models and maximum return on investment. But hey, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he was a businessman and I missed that. I thought he was a very kind, very empathetic, heart-moved-by-compassion-for-the-exploited kind of guy.

 

You know, everyone who is busy trying to justify all this could just take a minute and reflect on what Heather and others are saying. Try to learn from it. Be humble. Jesus seemed to be.

[Hillary in KS]

 

You are right to question these things, Heather. Reform starts with questioning.

 

I don't know that anyone is suggesting that Heather not question these things. I think posters are pointing out that what she is doing is not helpful or productive in any way.

 

If Heather were truly interested in questioning or "raising awareness" (Which apparently is a new and nicer-sounding term for gossip) she should be doing so with the people or mission organizations involved.

 

Gossiping about them on this forum solves nothing. It raises awareness to no one who is directly involved. At the end of the day, when this thread has ended, what has changed? Nothing. If Heather were truly concerned about this issue, she would have taken her concerns to the people and organizations involved. Not a homeschooling forum or her blog.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Hillary in KS

[lionfamily1999]

I don't know that anyone is suggesting that Heather not question these things. I think posters are pointing out that what she is doing is not helpful or productive in any way.

 

If Heather were truly interested in questioning or "raising awareness" (Which apparently is a new and nicer-sounding term for gossip) she should be doing so with the people or mission organizations involved.

 

Gossiping about them on this forum solves nothing. It raises awareness to no one who is directly involved. At the end of the day, when this thread has ended, what has changed? nothing. If Heather were truly concerned about this issue, she would have taken her concerns to the people and organizations involved. Not a homeschooling forum or her blog.

I agree, except that I think some things will have changed. Some people will feel stronger in their anti-Christian beliefs, some divisions will have become wider, some missionaries will lose their donations, and some Christians will find themselves questioning the religion of which they are a part.

 

Stumbling blocks, all over the place.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I don't know that anyone is suggesting that Heather not question these things.

 

Yes, we're saying that she's not asking the right questions from the right people. She's jumped right to the end - her conclusions without even knowing the facts beyond what she can see from the outside. Surely you would not want someone making conclusions about you and your life and your morals on only that much without even giving you the courtesy of finding out your side of things.

[Hillary in KS]

I agree, except that I think some things will have changed. Some people will feel stronger in their anti-Christian beliefs, some divisions will have become wider, some missionaries will lose their donations, and some Christians will find themselves questioning the religion of which they are a part.

 

Stumbling blocks, all over the place.

 

Well, yes. Absolutely.

 

But I meant that these things Heather is trying to "raise awareness" about will remain the same. Her postings do nothing to address the concerns she's raised.

[Hillary in KS]

Yes, we're saying that she's not asking the right questions from the right people. She's jumped right to the end - her conclusions without even knowing the facts beyond what she can see from the outside. Surely you would not want someone making conclusions about you and your life and your morals on only that much without even giving you the courtesy of finding out your side of things.

 

No, Jean, I am agreeing with you.

 

If Heather sees something she's concerned about OF COURSE she should question it... with those people directly involved. Not here. Not a public forum where all people can do is gossip and speculate.

 

You're absolutely right.

[Jean in Newcastle]

No, Jean, I am agreeing with you.

 

If Heather sees something she's concerned about OF COURSE she should question it... with those people directly involved. Not here. Not a public forum where all people can do is gossip and speculate.

 

You're absolutely right.

 

Oh dear - I'm agreeing with you too! I took your words and expanded from them. But somehow I forgot to point that out. . .:001_huh:

[Hillary in KS]

Oh dear - I'm agreeing with you too! I took your words and expanded from them. But somehow I forgot to point that out. . .:001_huh:

 

Oh! OK. Whew! :D

[Heather in Neverland]

I don't know that anyone is suggesting that Heather not question these things. I think posters are pointing out that what she is doing is not helpful or productive in any way.

 

If Heather were truly interested in questioning or "raising awareness" (Which apparently is a new and nicer-sounding term for gossip) she should be doing so with the people or mission organizations involved.

 

Gossiping about them on this forum solves nothing. It raises awareness to no one who is directly involved. At the end of the day, when this thread has ended, what has changed? Nothing. If Heather were truly concerned about this issue, she would have taken her concerns to the people and organizations involved. Not a homeschooling forum or her blog.

 

Now who is judging? People question ALL KINDS OF THINGS on this board. I am sorry if MY PARTICULAR question is one people don't want to face.

 

I am TRULY concerned (but thanks again for the judgment) or I wouldn't be bringing it up and for the record...I have a meeting with the school leadership team in 45 minutes and I am going to speak out for reform...

 

I am going to suggest that missionaries must PROVE they are missionaries and that they NEED the 50% discount we give them. Right now all they have to do is check a box. I think our discounts should go to people with financial hardship not just anyone who says they are a missionary.

 

AND I am contacting the headquarters of the mission organization that seems to have the most offenders is this area to voice my concerns.

 

I hope this satisifies all of you who think I have no right to even ask the question.

[Hillary in KS]

 

I am going to suggest that missionaries must PROVE they are missionaries and that they NEED the 50% discount we give them. Right now all they have to do is check a box. I think our discounts should go to people with financial hardship not just anyone who says they are a missionary.

 

AND I am contacting the headquarters of the mission organization that seems to have the most offenders is this area to voice my concerns.

 

 

Excellent. This is what you should have done in the first place. :thumbup:

 

And, AGAIN, no one is suggesting you shouldn't have asked the question. Only the forum and manner in which you originally chose to do so.

[lionfamily1999]

Well, yes. Absolutely.

 

But I meant that these things Heather is trying to "raise awareness" about will remain the same. Her postings do nothing to address the concerns she's raised...

 

No, Jean, I am agreeing with you.

 

If Heather sees something she's concerned about OF COURSE she should question it... with those people directly involved. Not here. Not a public forum where all people can do is gossip and speculate.

 

You're absolutely right.

:lol: We're all three in agreement.

[lionfamily1999]

Now who is judging?

 

I hope this satisifies all of you who think I have no right to even ask the question.

Christ wants us to have good judgment and to use the Spirit's discernment.

 

No one said you didn't have a right to ask. We questioned how you went about it.

[Sahamamama]

This is a very long thread, and I haven't read all of it... ;)

 

Probably no one will even read this post, but here are my two pesos:

 

Thought #1 -- Being Called to Go, Being Called to Give

Over the years I have had to step back from some of the appeals to give that are made by my church fellowship. When I was on every mailing list, :tongue_smilie:the appeals to donate never ceased. In church, I was raised with the motto that we are to "Pray! Give! Go!" -- and even two out of the three would suffice, if God hadn't called me to go. ;) We are all to pray without ceasing, so that is a given mandate. We are all, in a sense, called to "go," at least into our own domains. But are we all to always give without restraint, without ceasing? Is there ever any time when our needs, or the needs of those immediately around us, are pressing enough to warrant a change in our stewardship? I would say "yes," there are those times, times when we (personally) are exercising stewardship by holding back what is needed for either ourselves or those in our care. I don't believe that we are always supposed to give our last "widow's mite" (last dime, so to speak). I think there is a spiritual discernment that needs to take place to become a Spirit-led, Spirit-called supporter, just as there is a spiritual discernment on the part of those who state that they are called to go.

 

Thought #2 -- Being Wise As Serpents

Shorter thought, and rather self-explanatory, but... would it really be wise for a missionary to go overseas, into another country and culture and (possibly) language, without some preliminary research? No? Then why do we think it is wise for us to give without doing the same? Investigate your options. Ask questions, just like wise and prepared missionaries do. Then give with the peace of knowing that the Spirit has directed you, and your God-given brain has aided you in giving where these resources will truly be used to build God's kingdom, and not some other person's self-serving lifestyle.

 

Heather, I've served overseas (short-term, whole different ballgame). I've seen this, too. It disturbed me then, and it does now, only less so. Time does have a way of mellowing out things. I hope time helps you with this. Hang in there!

[freethinkermama]

I agree, except that I think some things will have changed. Some people will feel stronger in their anti-Christian beliefs, some divisions will have become wider, some missionaries will lose their donations, and some Christians will find themselves questioning the religion of which they are a part.

 

Stumbling blocks, all over the place.

 

You know what will happen if Heather brings this to her mission board?

 

Nothing. Nothing at all.

 

You know what it will do for anti-Christianity feeling? Nothing. People who are already non-Christian or "anti-Christian" are certainly willing to believe that Christians are only as noble or corrupt as anyone else. After all, "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven."

 

You know what will happen to Christians who find themselves questioning their religion? They'll probably keep questioning, because there are certainly more things to question the very real humanness of all people. Or, they'll question other things. They'll question because they're people, and even solid Christians question. That's ok. Or, maybe it isn't.

[lionfamily1999]

N/m

[Melissa in Australia]

I agree, except that I think some things will have changed. Some people will feel stronger in their anti-Christian beliefs, some divisions will have become wider, some missionaries will lose their donations, and some Christians will find themselves questioning the religion of which they are a part.

 

Stumbling blocks, all over the place.

Aren't these "stumbling blocks " good things? I am sure it says somewhere in the bible to question all things.

People need to look closely and question their religion.

Some missionaries might need to pull up their socks.

 

The divisions are already as wide as possible. isn't that the whole point?

Some missionaries are living a life that is a HUGE division from the locals, and the lifestyle they would have in their native country.

 

In fact I get the idea that some missionaries are thinking they are some kind of colonial power.

[OnTheBrink]

How is it that everyone here seems to know missionaries that live lavish lifestyles, yet I am a missionary, currently in the missions field, who knows Lots of missionaries, yet I've never met one?

 

I've never met a missionary who lives a lavish life-style. Every one our church supports lives as the people they serve live.

[lionfamily1999]

Aren't these "stumbling blocks " good things? I am sure it says somewhere in the bible to question all things.

People need to look closely and question their religion.

Some missionaries might need to pull up their socks.

 

The divisions are already as wide as possible. isn't that the whole point?

Some missionaries are living a life that is a HUGE division from the locals, and the lifestyle they would have in their native country.

 

In fact I get the idea that some missionaries are thinking they are some kind of colonial power.

In Corinthians we are warned against becoming stumbling blocks, throughout the NT we are warned against causing division. We are also warned against going to "the world" for advice on matters of Christianity because the world is not Christian.

[Starr]

Why would we question school teachers, neighbors, church members in churches that are named, government and on and on and on and not be able to talk about missionaries on this board? Many of these people could be tracked down via blogs and postings. No one has to agree but this is nuts. Yes it would be a total drag to have to show every receipt and never get a fun cup of coffee but I highly doubt that Heather would find that a good thing either. She loves her coffee. :D Do you really think she can't tell the difference between comfortable and over the top?

[Melissa in Australia]

In Corinthians we are warned against becoming stumbling blocks, throughout the NT we are warned against causing division. We are also warned against going to "the world" for advice on matters of Christianity because the world is not Christian.

I have already been completely stumbled by "Christians" way before finding this Forum.

Lucky for me I am no longer a Christian. So I can talk about the world as I see it.:D

[jld]

I don't think Heather has been gossiping about anyone. I think gossip is speaking unkindly of someone not present with no other purpose than to be unkind. Heather had a concern, and voiced in a place she felt safe. She has now decided to take her concern to a more effective place.

 

You start somewhere, learn, and move on. I think Christianity, or any religion, could benefit from more sincere people like Heather.

 

And I, for one, have certainly learned a lot from this thread.

[Mimm]

Wow, I think it's really hypocritical to be griping that she is "gossiping" on a public forum when so many people here have brought up questions and concerns about people in their lives. Heather hasn't named names of specific missionaries or outed anyone who is living in a dangerous area. And God forbid we have people asking questions about their faith. :blink:

[Kate CA]

Can someone explain it or give me an attitude adjustment? :confused:

 

There have been many people who have made the effort to explain why some things might be the way you see them--might not be what you think they are. But did you want to hear that or did you just want a place to come and vent about people you feel are living above where you think they ought to live and still call themselves missionaries? I am asking this honestly. Perhaps they *are* living inappropriately and perhaps they are misusing mission funds, but THIS board will not solve any of those problems. People raised concerns about the safety of the missionaries being exposed in this very public way and you brushed that off.

 

You don't think you are exposing people because you say it is free and open in Malaysia, but back in January you were here asking for prayer for your safety because of the church attacks. http://www.persecution.net/my-2010-01-14.htm

 

Heather, no one said you didn't have the right to ask the question - indeed, you should certainly be asking, but asking where it matters and where someone can do something about it. I am glad you are going to do that, but there are many here who think that biblically you should have gone there first.

 

Now who is judging? People question ALL KINDS OF THINGS on this board. I am sorry if MY PARTICULAR question is one people don't want to face.

 

I am TRULY concerned (but thanks again for the judgment) or I wouldn't be bringing it up and for the record...I have a meeting with the school leadership team in 45 minutes and I am going to speak out for reform...

 

I am going to suggest that missionaries must PROVE they are missionaries and that they NEED the 50% discount we give them. Right now all they have to do is check a box. I think our discounts should go to people with financial hardship not just anyone who says they are a missionary.

 

AND I am contacting the headquarters of the mission organization that seems to have the most offenders is this area to voice my concerns.

 

I hope this satisifies all of you who think I have no right to even ask the question.

[catalinakel]

Heather should report what she has witnessed. It is bothering her conscience and she is seeing things that are for her and the country in which she lives, red flags of the abuse of goodwill and charitable funds. I agree with her that women who are supposed to be there "doing good", hanging out at the mall and having their nails done or whatever, is WRONG! If it costs the school $10,000.00 a year to educate a kid, then the US supporters need to provide that or I guess, those missionaries need to subject their kids to the crappy government schools or come home to the States or Europe or wherever they are from...the school should not suffer for scholarships it can not afford to give. Those that are in the country earning a living that would allow them to pay for full tuition should be paying full tuition..applying for an unneeded scholarship that the school can ill afford to offer, is WRONG!!! Please Heather, write some letters, make some phone calls, talk turkey to some people, and blow the whistle. This is best for all involved!

 

As for homeschooling, this is one reason that Dh rejected the job in Kuala Lumpur. We couldn't quite afford, on his salary from the private sector job he was offered, to have a home for five in a decent neighborhood, and decent medical coverage (another killer was also the lack of expert pediatric cardiac care available and ds must have access to this should his condition worsen), and some household help for me so that I could volunteer for the relief group we wanted to work with, and $15,000.00 per year tuition to Heather's school for three children. We came pretty close to a budget that would have gotten us in the ball park, but tooooooo close for comfort. No wiggle room. Homeschooling is severely restricted in Malaysia though many do it illegally. There is a very, very limited set of circumstances under which a person can gain approval for homeschooling from the government. You must have government approval, applications take 6-12 months to be processed and that's if they aren't lost to begin with. We researched this heavily as an option to not paying tuition for the school and this is what we found out. Thailand did not regulate homeschooling amongst expats and the quality of pediatric care in the capitol city was much better which is why he considered that Oracle DBA job and there was a relief agency that we would have really liked to work with. Once the guerilla wars began in the city. we decided that we'd stay put.

 

Abuse happens; Look at what happened at United Way several years ago - this is a secular organization so Christians aren't the only ones with these kinds of woes. It needs to be dealt with....I am however, very concerned that in this thread the general attitude is that all individuals who go with a religious organization to another country to try to help the poor, sick, etc. are at best, merely bad parents, and at worst, money sucking leeches whose work is of no value.

 

So that those who feel that religious missionaries are evil, I will relate to you a true story of a family who did what most of you think is "appropriate" for charitable aid workers and the consequences thereof.

 

The American young couple found out they were expecting their first child. The country - Haiti. Mid-way through the pregnancy, the mom got into a health crisis and the medical clinic on the mission compound, operated by independent doctors from the US, felt she should come home. They didn't have the means to deal with her issues effectively and were very worried for the health of the baby. The mission's board said, "No, you must experience pregnancy and childbirth in the village in the same way as the women to whom you minister. This will strengthen their trust in you." She stayed...the baby was born premature and though she survived, was severely brain damaged because of the lack of neo-natal care...the clinic doctors did not have an intubation kit small enough for the baby. The little girl is now ten years old and functions at about a six month level. As for quitting and coming home, they didn't have a credit card (had to be surrendered so that they would not be able to live "above" the villargers" in order to book their own tickets and the mission's organization took in all of their money from supporters and then parted it out monthly. They didn't have enough to purchase the tickets. They were stuck. Of course, when their term was up...three months after the birth of their now irreparably damaged daughter, they told the mission's organization where to go and when to get there. They live stateside and are very hard hearted about relief work. Literally, as far as they are concerned, no one should lift a d*mn finger to help any one in another country because you are d*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't.

 

So, for you all that believe that missionaries should live in the same conditions as the people they seek to help, you can be happy to know that we personally know and have tried to help a couple who did exactly that and their US supporters can be gratified that they suffered exactly what the families of the village face every day the death or near death of their infants and irreparable damage from lack of access to appropriate medical care - except now those villagers face worse because this couple brought serious agricultural expertise as well as built single home water purifiers for the residents of the village - now they are without that help.

 

Gone is the huge community garden that their knowledge helped the villagers maintain for both food and the sale of produce which brought in vital income. Water purifiers that need repair aren't being repaired and new ones aren't being built...the rates of disease and parasitical infections has skyrocketed again. The orchard, in a fledgeling state, did not survive once they left the country. And a little girl will suffer terribly for what short life she has left. Does everyone who is bitter against Christian relief workers feel warm fuzzies now? Exactly what has been suggested multiple, multiple, multiple, times in this thread happened. They subjected themselves to the exact same conditions as the people they sought to help. So obviously, under this "logic", the outcome is acceptable if not welcome. Right??? Heather, I am not suggesting in any way, that you personally feel that Christian relief workers should live in poverty and not have access to adequate medical care or that it is right for their children to suffer. What you are seeing is very, very different from that and on the other extreme of the pendulum's swing.

 

Personally, the same Jesus who did ask his men to forsake all and follow him also said, "Suffer not the little children to come unto me" and suggested that anyone who would deliberately harm a child should consider tying a mill stone (ever seen one of these things....THEY ARE HUGE) around his neck and throw himself in the sea! I have to say, I don't think He'd be pleased by the few missionaries abusing charitable giving and I am very certain he isn't pleased by the other extreme either.

 

Faith, who is heart broken by this whole discussion and should really just get off the boards and go teach an unhappy child his algebra lesson.

 

This issue goes way beyond what Heather brought up. And, yes, to be honest, Heather, I think you are just sort of in need of a good whine right about now, and that your school needs to better scrutinize the situations of those who wish their children to study under the missionary discount.

 

There is so much I want to talk about, but my brain is slow tonight. Bottom Line here? JUDGE NOT, LEST YOU BE JUDGED. Who am I to say anything? One who lived in Honduras for a year in a downtown boarding house where cockroaches lived in the fridge, while teaching Honduran children at a bilingual school. One who was upset when I learned at Bible College that, no, I could not just become a missionary, that there would first be a huge battery of tests done on me. One who has always supported missionaries. One who in my zealot youthful days believed that the 'best' Christians are missionaries, and that the 'best' Christians would not be caught dead living luxuriously. And one who knows first hand the evil in her own heart...the greed, the envy, the false humility, the self righteousness. I have never met a missionary who lived in luxury, but I have known a few whose hearts were quite messed up, and who lived in ways not honoring to Christ. God knows. He sees. Unless we are willing to do the hard work of looking deeply into each situation which seems wrong, we ought not assume anything.

 

On another note, Elizabeth Elliot wrote a very interesting fictional novel about a young missionaries disillusionment which I found quite compelling. Can't recall the title, but it would be worth looking into.

[catalinakel]

In Footprints of a Pilgrim, Ruth Bell Graham shared a story wherein she donated her own lunch card at college, to a girl who could not afford one.

Ruth says she was often hungry at lunch but felt good about her sacrifice until she saw the recipient of her lunches wearing a beautiful coat that Ruth herself could never have afforded.

She wrestled with bitterness until God spoke to her and let her know that her sacrifice was to Him and about her relationship with Him. Ruth was not to concern herself with how else God chose to bless the other girl.

 

The tithing Christian is being taken on a faith journey that has nothing to do with what kind of house, car or education others receive.

 

You can look from your perspective and feel supporters are getting fleeced, but God's perspective is that through their sacrifice, many have learned that he is Jehovah Jireh~the God who provides.

 

Unless you have proof of blatant dishonesty or corruption, I'd not give those missionary's possessions another thought.

 

This is wisdom.

[Michelle in MO]

There have been many people who have made the effort to explain why some things might be the way you see them--might not be what you think they are. But did you want to hear that or did you just want a place to come and vent about people you feel are living above where you think they ought to live and still call themselves missionaries? I am asking this honestly. Perhaps they *are* living inappropriately and perhaps they are misusing mission funds, but THIS board will not solve any of those problems. People raised concerns about the safety of the missionaries being exposed in this very public way and you brushed that off.

 

You don't think you are exposing people because you say it is free and open in Malaysia, but back in January you were here asking for prayer for your safety because of the church attacks. http://www.persecution.net/my-2010-01-14.htm

 

Heather, no one said you didn't have the right to ask the question - indeed, you should certainly be asking, but asking where it matters and where someone can do something about it. I am glad you are going to do that, but there are many here who think that biblically you should have gone there first.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

 

 

This is wisdom as well.

[KingM]

I don't think it's wrong to question where one's donations are going and if they are being used wisely. In fact, I think it is an obligation. Lack of accountability leads to abuse in religion as much as in government. Also, the people who are abusing the system give a bad name to all those people who are careful stewards of the widows mite and harm the overall effort as a result.

[Heather in Neverland]

You know what? You are right. I came here asking if I needed an attitude adjustment. Do you know why? Because I have been fundraising for missions and giving to missions my whole life and I have friends who are missionaries and I had NO IDEA that abuses like this existed and I REALLY AND TRULY HOPED that I was wrong about what I was seeing.

 

Well I did some digging today and I now I am almost sorry I did. I found out that not only are my worst fears true...it is worse than my own my worst fears. The abuses are nauseating. I cannot give details because that WOULD "out" people but let's just say that I got an attitude adjustment all right...and now my attitude is worse.

 

I am so disillusioned right now I could cry. Call me judgmental, or a gossip, or whatever you want... but I cared enough to question it, to look into and now I know the truth.

 

Maybe ignorance is bliss after all.

[mommaduck]

You know what? You are right. I came here asking if I needed an attitude adjustment. Do you know why? Because I have been fundraising for missions and giving to missions my whole life and I have friends who are missionaries and I had NO IDEA that abuses like this existed and I REALLY AND TRULY HOPED that I was wrong about what I was seeing.

 

Well I did some digging today and I now I am almost sorry I did. I found out that not only are my worst fears true...it is worse than my own my worst fears. The abuses are nauseating. I cannot give details because that WOULD "out" people but let's just say that I got an attitude adjustment all right...and now my attitude is worse.

 

I am so disillusioned right now I could cry. Call me judgmental, or a gossip, or whatever you want... but I cared enough to question it, to look into and now I know the truth.

 

Maybe ignorance is bliss after all.

:grouphug:

 

Unfortunately, the worst abuses take place under the restrictions of "don't talk about it, it's gossip" or "only speak to the group it involves". Because if it never goes anywhere else, then no one knows and the abuses can keep happening (yeah, I've seen too much happen in certain types of churches). You may definitely question...only thing is, that is when we generally will see just how ugly something can be. Hugs and prayers, hon. Hopefully the school will be willing to work something out that will benefit those truly in need, including the teachers.

Edited November 15, 2010 by mommaduck

[Laura Corin]

Laura

[unsinkable]

You know what? You are right. I came here asking if I needed an attitude adjustment. Do you know why? Because I have been fundraising for missions and giving to missions my whole life and I have friends who are missionaries and I had NO IDEA that abuses like this existed and I REALLY AND TRULY HOPED that I was wrong about what I was seeing.

 

Well I did some digging today and I now I am almost sorry I did. I found out that not only are my worst fears true...it is worse than my own my worst fears. The abuses are nauseating. I cannot give details because that WOULD "out" people but let's just say that I got an attitude adjustment all right...and now my attitude is worse.

 

I am so disillusioned right now I could cry. Call me judgmental, or a gossip, or whatever you want... but I cared enough to question it, to look into and now I know the truth.

 

Maybe ignorance is bliss after all.

 

Heather,

 

:grouphug: I know we are worlds apart in many things (literally and figuratively!) but I am sorry for your pain.

[jld]

:grouphug:

 

Unfortunately, the worst abuses take place under the restrictions of "don't talk about it, it's gossip" or "only speak to the group it involves". Because if it never goes anywhere else, then no one knows and the abuses can keep happening (yeah, I've seen too much happen in certain types of churches). You may definitely question...only thing is, that is when we generally will see just how ugly something can be. Hugs and prayers, hon. Hopefully the school will be willing to work something out that will benefit those truly in need, including the teachers.

 

As another poster mentioned, secrets are not healthy (maybe that was in another thread, can't remember). There should be no reason you can't be open and honest about your concerns. And I hope there are other sincere people who aren't content to let corruption continue.

 

If it's any comfort, remember that it was other religious people who pressed to have Jesus persecuted. They didn't want their institution questioned, and certainly not criticized.

[Tammyla]

:grouphug:

 

You know what? You are right. I came here asking if I needed an attitude adjustment. Do you know why? Because I have been fundraising for missions and giving to missions my whole life and I have friends who are missionaries and I had NO IDEA that abuses like this existed and I REALLY AND TRULY HOPED that I was wrong about what I was seeing.

 

Well I did some digging today and I now I am almost sorry I did. I found out that not only are my worst fears true...it is worse than my own my worst fears. The abuses are nauseating. I cannot give details because that WOULD "out" people but let's just say that I got an attitude adjustment all right...and now my attitude is worse.

 

I am so disillusioned right now I could cry. Call me judgmental, or a gossip, or whatever you want... but I cared enough to question it, to look into and now I know the truth.

 

Maybe ignorance is bliss after all.

[Jean in Newcastle]

You know what? You are right. I came here asking if I needed an attitude adjustment. Do you know why? Because I have been fundraising for missions and giving to missions my whole life and I have friends who are missionaries and I had NO IDEA that abuses like this existed and I REALLY AND TRULY HOPED that I was wrong about what I was seeing.

 

Well I did some digging today and I now I am almost sorry I did. I found out that not only are my worst fears true...it is worse than my own my worst fears. The abuses are nauseating. I cannot give details because that WOULD "out" people but let's just say that I got an attitude adjustment all right...and now my attitude is worse.

 

I am so disillusioned right now I could cry. Call me judgmental, or a gossip, or whatever you want... but I cared enough to question it, to look into and now I know the truth.

 

Maybe ignorance is bliss after all.

 

No, knowledge is power that allows you to act in an appropriate way. All you can do know is to take things to those people who do have some oversight and to make appropriate decisions for those things that you have oversight over. That there are abuses in Christian work is no secret - look at the money and sex scandals that hit the newspapers. If your influence is limited, you do what you can and you leave the rest to the Lord. These people are accountable to God and it's not like He doesn't know what is going on. But since you don't have God's omniscience, you needed to do that digging and perhaps need to do even more.

Edited November 15, 2010 by Jean in Newcastle

[PineFarmMom]

Heather, no one said you didn't have the right to ask the question - indeed, you should certainly be asking, but asking where it matters and where someone can do something about it. I am glad you are going to do that, but there are many here who think that biblically you should have gone there first.

 

 

:iagree:

[Sahamamama]

You know what? You are right. I came here asking if I needed an attitude adjustment. Do you know why? Because I have been fundraising for missions and giving to missions my whole life and I have friends who are missionaries and I had NO IDEA that abuses like this existed and I REALLY AND TRULY HOPED that I was wrong about what I was seeing.

 

Well I did some digging today and I now I am almost sorry I did. I found out that not only are my worst fears true...it is worse than my own my worst fears. The abuses are nauseating. I cannot give details because that WOULD "out" people but let's just say that I got an attitude adjustment all right...and now my attitude is worse.

 

I am so disillusioned right now I could cry. Call me judgmental, or a gossip, or whatever you want... but I cared enough to question it, to look into and now I know the truth.

 

Maybe ignorance is bliss after all.

 

:grouphug: Heather, I am sorry you are feeling this way now. I do hope that things work out for you over there. FWIW, I don't think it was wrong for you to simply ask a "would this bug you?" type of question, asking for (hopefully) mature, adult input. People do that all the time here, and don't usually get pounced on for it. I don't really understand why you weren't "supposed" to ask. Sorry you went through all that.