S/O Matriarchal society - who has the real power?

[Aunty Social]

If an alien landed here today and took a look around, who do you think he would say held the real power?

 

My dh and I have been discussing this lately. He holds the position that women have the real power. Men have one socially acceptable choice - grow up and get a job. They are expected to get married, have children, and spend the rest of their years working to provide for said wife and children. It is slowly becoming more accepted for them to be stay at home dads, but is still considered odd.

 

Women, on the other hand, have a huge amount of freedom. We don't have one expected role. We can go to college and have a career, we can stay at home, we can have children and work, or have children and stay home, we can get married or not, and it is all mainstream.

 

My dh's point is that society seems to be set up to provide women with complete freedom to do as they wish, and men are expected to provide the means for that to happen.

 

So, who has the real power? Those visible in the political and work arenas, or those behind the scenes?

 

I'm looking forward to all the different viewpoints!

[amy g.]

The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

[Catherine]

Power over the lives and choices of other unrelated human beings, men hold, for the most part. Power over children, family decisions, "micropower", women hold. Who is making most of the decisions within American society that trickle down to affect all of us-hiring and firing, foreclosure policy, bank leadership, lawmaking, justice? It's not all men, like it was 60 years ago, but it is still largely men.

 

Their wives decide how their salaries are spent and who their kids are raised. Which is real power? You tell me.

[mommaduck]

"The man is the head of the family...the woman is the neck that turns the head!" ;)

 

Yep, I agree...the hand that rocks the cradle rules the world. Men have their perks, but also their limits. Women are more limited by their choices than anything else, but their choices seem to be wider. We have a stronger influence many times than we even realise.

 

Ironically, even in the patriarchal movement, many families seem to lean that direction because the WIFE read about it and thought that that was what SHE wanted for her family and how she THINKS she wants her husband to be (many times due to the idealism).

[Parrothead]

.

 

Women, on the other hand, have a huge amount of freedom. We don't have one expected role. We can go to college and have a career, we can stay at home, we can have children and work, or have children and stay home, we can get married or not, and it is all mainstream.

 

 

What you have described does not happen all over the world. I don't have the statistics but off hand I'd say less than half of the female population. So, no, I do not think women have the power.

[smrtmama]

Men. It's nice to think we have the power, but you know what? Almost all our political figures and large business owners are male. Most of the money is in the hands of men. Most of the laws are made by men.

[cathmom]

What you describe is not power.

 

And while it may appear that women have all this freedom, I believe that in many ways our society is set up to force women to choose. Yes, you can choose a career, but you will have to sacrifice family life, or yes, you can choose to have a family, but you better not want to be taken seriously in a career.

[patchfire]

What you describe is not power.

 

And while it may appear that women have all this freedom, I believe that in many ways our society is set up to force women to choose. Yes, you can choose a career, but you will have to sacrifice family life, or yes, you can choose to have a family, but you better not want to be taken seriously in a career.

 

This. "Choice" does not mean freedom, nor power.

[Karis]

The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world.

 

 

We do!

 

But remember...

 

To whom much is given, MUCH is required. ;)

 

:001_huh: :glare: :001_smile:

[Peela]

I think women have always had the power, but we have spent a long time believing we didnt and acting as if we didnt- and then carrying on behind the scenes to control what we weren't allowed to help manage openly.

 

If we didnt make love with/marry men who didn't treat us with respect and honour, not to mention equality, we could have changed the world a long time ago. We have that power to a huge extent (bar rape). We have their babies. But in the past, we were their possessions. But women make up 50% of the human race, more or less....we always had the power. We just didnt use it.

 

 

Yes, I do think women have a lot more freedom nowadays than men, in many ways. But, times are changing and they will eventually change for men too. Many men are making different choices nowadays. It's just not "normal" yet.

[Mama Geek]

I think women have always had the power, but we have spent a long time believing we didnt and acting as if we didnt- and then carrying on behind the scenes to control what we weren't allowed to help manage openly.

 

If we didnt make love with/marry men who didn't treat us with respect and honour, not to mention equality, we could have changed the world a long time ago. We have that power to a huge extent (bar rape). We have their babies. But in the past, we were their possessions. But women make up 50% of the human race, more or less....we always had the power. We just didnt use it.

 

 

Yes, I do think women have a lot more freedom nowadays than men, in many ways. But, times are changing and they will eventually change for men too. Many men are making different choices nowadays. It's just not "normal" yet.

 

Hmmmm...In certain cultures women are treated as possessions first to their fathers, then to their husbands. They don't have a choice in who they marry, nor do they have a choice to leave their husbands. There are horrible atrocities that happen to women who try to change this (rape, torture, murder.) Women have not always had power. Men are overall phycically stronger than women and therefore I don't think women have always had the power. Does that make any sense?

[Carol in Cal.]

I don't think that men are really required to provide the means for women to make those choices. Some men choose to do so, and others do not. There are not any real requirements on them.

[smrtmama]

Hmmmm...In certain cultures women are treated as possessions first to their fathers, then to their husbands. They don't have a choice in who they marry, nor do they have a choice to leave their husbands. There are horrible atrocities that happen to women who try to change this (rape, torture, murder.) Women have not always had power. Men are overall phycically stronger than women and therefore I don't think women have always had the power. Does that make any sense?

 

In certain segments of THIS culture, women are still treated like that.

[KidsHappen]

We do. Even my dds know that while dad is head of the family , mommma is the neck and whichever way I turn, is the way we go.

[Aunty Social]

Power over the lives and choices of other unrelated human beings, men hold, for the most part. Power over children, family decisions, "micropower", women hold. Who is making most of the decisions within American society that trickle down to affect all of us-hiring and firing, foreclosure policy, bank leadership, lawmaking, justice? It's not all men, like it was 60 years ago, but it is still largely men.

 

Their wives decide how their salaries are spent and who their kids are raised. Which is real power? You tell me.

 

Yes, this is what dh and I have come to conclude. I guess the real question is, what is "real power" and why do we argue over who has the better deal? Especially since in many families the men listen to their wife's opinion and take it into serious consideration when they are making their decisions - decisions that ultimately wind up affecting society as a whole, such as law and policy making. You can't tell me the First Lady doesn't have anything to say to the President about how she thinks things should be done.:lol:

 

What you have described does not happen all over the world. I don't have the statistics but off hand I'd say less than half of the female population.

 

Very true. I should clarify that we were talking about the very limited subsection that we are in - middle class, protestant Christian, westernized developed country. Worldwide - no, there are a lot of problems.

 

What you describe is not power.

 

And while it may appear that women have all this freedom, I believe that in many ways our society is set up to force women to choose. Yes, you can choose a career, but you will have to sacrifice family life, or yes, you can choose to have a family, but you better not want to be taken seriously in a career.

 

Yes, we do have to choose. So do men. If a man wants to get ahead in his job, particularly in corporate America, he has to put in long hours and sacrifice a lot of his already limited family time. Otherwise he is not taken seriously. If he takes time off to care for a sick child, or leaves work at 5 instead of 6 so he can catch his kid's game, then he is penalized at review and promotion time. It's not as overt, but it happens.

 

The point is, it's more acceptable for a woman to make some of those choices...we have more freedom to make them. IMO, freedom doesn't mean that you don't have to sacrifice or make hard choices/decisions. It means you have the ability to make them.

[Mejane]

I agree with others: it depends upon where the alien lands. In the US or Europe - maybe women. In Afghanistan or almost any African country, not so much.

[pqr]

I agree with others: it depends upon where the alien lands. In the US or Europe - maybe women. In Afghanistan or almost any African country, not so much.

 

you forgot almost the entire Middle East as a No.

[MamaSheep]

I think that "real" power only happens when men and women stop viewing each other competetively and start working cooperatively. And I think the greater the level of cooperation, the greater power can be "generated" (for lack of a better word). I think there's a synergy that happens when each "side" can frankly and gladly acknowledge the strengths of the other "side", as well as their own weaknesses, and can coordinate with each other to the degree that they're both pulling in the same direction, toward the same goals, with each "side" using thier strengths for the good of all. I don't think the question should be "who has the power, him or me," but rather, "how do WE best put OUR power to use". Unless we're working together, NOBODY has the "real" power, and humanity is less than it could be.

[Mejane]

you forgot almost the entire Middle East as a No.

 

Yes. I mentioned Afghanistan specifically as it is seen as the worst ME country for women by many watch groups.

[Aunty Social]

I think that "real" power only happens when men and women stop viewing each other competetively and start working cooperatively. And I think the greater the level of cooperation, the greater power can be "generated" (for lack of a better word). I think there's a synergy that happens when each "side" can frankly and gladly acknowledge the strengths of the other "side", as well as their own weaknesses, and can coordinate with each other to the degree that they're both pulling in the same direction, toward the same goals, with each "side" using thier strengths for the good of all. I don't think the question should be "who has the power, him or me," but rather, "how do WE best put OUR power to use". Unless we're working together, NOBODY has the "real" power, and humanity is less than it could be.

 

Love this!

[justamouse]

Their wives decide how their salaries are spent and who their kids are raised. Which is real power? You tell me.

 

eeeehhhhhh....I'm thinking no. Yes, women buy food, health and beauty, clothing, and perhaps make larger purchases (houses, cars, boats, insurances, TVs, ) with input from their husbands--if not just their husbands.

 

Make decisions on how kids are raised? How many women on this board alone started homeschooling or wanted to homeschool and the fathers were completely against it?

 

A family living in Harlem doesn't have the purchase power a family living in Westchester does (there are probably more people in Harlem). A woman in Harlem may not have ANY choices-food or starve, Rent or be homeless. Most of America is lower middle class/lower class. Those women do not have much power, they're just trying to survive and hoping to God they can give their kids better than they have.

[Catherine]

What I'm referring to in my post is the definition of power. Since well before women's suffrage in the USA, powerful men have told women they are actually the powerful ones, because they are "the hand that rocks the cradle."

 

It's a red herring ladies!! The hand that signs the laws holds the power! Women in the USA who had no right to own property of their own, who could not legally divorce abusive or philandering husbands, or if they did, lost custody of their children, who could not vote, were convinced by these red herrings for generations.

 

It wasn't until women gained those rights that we immediately realized what we had been missing.

 

Could anyone in this day and age, conservative or liberal, seriously try to legislate away our rights to vote and own property?? People would be in the streets-and thank goodness they would!

 

I don't think women, even very conservative women of our time acknowledge the debt they owe to early feminists. We totally take for granted our social standing and rights. But men did not willingly give us those rights. We must remember that! Politically powerful men had no problem at all with forbidding women the right to own property and vote. Think about that!!

 

Women do not wield power nationally and internationally similar to men. And deciding how one's kids are going to be educated does not equate to legislating, administering justice to strangers, and making decisions about banking policy that affect all of us daily.

[Mrs Mungo]

Gilded cage.

[justamouse]

Gilded cage.

 

Yup. She has such a way with words, Mrs. Mungo does. :D

[justamouse]

Women do not wield power nationally and internationally similar to men. And deciding how one's kids are going to be educated does not equate to legislating, administering justice to strangers, and making decisions about banking policy that affect all of us daily.

 

Then we agree. :001_smile:

[HRAAB]

I don't believe women have more power, or that men have more power, at the domestic level, generally speaking. My dh works hard to support us (currently unemployed but due to his hard work and wise decisions we're getting by). I'm sure there were many days he wished he could say 'forget it' and not go to work, but he didn't. I don't call that a lack of power, but rather using his power to accept his responsibilities. At the same time, there were many days I wanted to get in the car and go to work. But then I would remember the extremely stressful days at work when all I wanted was to stay at home. In the end, I did the responsible thing. As long as we have the freedom to choose to do the right thing, I consider that a power.

[HRAAB]

I think that "real" power only happens when men and women stop viewing each other competetively and start working cooperatively. And I think the greater the level of cooperation, the greater power can be "generated" (for lack of a better word). I think there's a synergy that happens when each "side" can frankly and gladly acknowledge the strengths of the other "side", as well as their own weaknesses, and can coordinate with each other to the degree that they're both pulling in the same direction, toward the same goals, with each "side" using thier strengths for the good of all. I don't think the question should be "who has the power, him or me," but rather, "how do WE best put OUR power to use". Unless we're working together, NOBODY has the "real" power, and humanity is less than it could be.

 

:iagree::iagree: Amen!

[Rosie_0801]

Hmmmm...In certain cultures women are treated as possessions first to their fathers, then to their husbands. They don't have a choice in who they marry, nor do they have a choice to leave their husbands. There are horrible atrocities that happen to women who try to change this (rape, torture, murder.) Women have not always had power. Men are overall phycically stronger than women and therefore I don't think women have always had the power. Does that make any sense?

 

There are ways and means :) I heard about an African group where if a man was behaving badly, beating his wife, not allowing her to farm properly or other major sins, all the women would gather and stand outside his house and sing belittling songs, day and night until he gave up and promised to behave. Apparently these chaps couldn't hold out longer than two days ;)

 

An individual woman might not have much power, but a collective as I've described does.

 

If aliens dropped down here and worked out a simple answer to this question, they'd be wrong.

 

Rosie

[Mama Geek]

I read an article this morning discussing a Chinese woman that was 8 months pregnant with her 2nd child and forced to have an abortion. This wasn't something that the father wanted either. There are many women in China forced into abortions that they don't want and I don't think they would be able to collectively change that.

[Peela]

There are ways and means :) I heard about an African group where if a man was behaving badly, beating his wife, not allowing her to farm properly or other major sins, all the women would gather and stand outside his house and sing belittling songs, day and night until he gave up and promised to behave. Apparently these chaps couldn't hold out longer than two days ;)

 

An individual woman might not have much power, but a collective as I've described does.

 

 

 

Love it. Yes, I agree- collectively women have plenty of power- but as long as we are brought up to believe we don't, we don't access it.

I love stories like you just wrote, Rosie. THe concept was instroduced to me by someone who said...if all the women in the world refused to marry/have babies with bad men...we would have no more bad men- they wouldnt reproduce- or they would have to change. We DO have power. But we just havent woken up to it completely yet.

[nova mama]

Women, on the other hand, have a huge amount of freedom. We don't have one expected role. We can go to college and have a career, we can stay at home, we can have children and work, or have children and stay home, we can get married or not, and it is all mainstream.

 

My dh's point is that society seems to be set up to provide women with complete freedom to do as they wish, and men are expected to provide the means for that to happen.

 

 

MAYBE, but if the family cannot afford to live on Dad's income alone, Mom has no choice but to work. Or, if Mom can't find a job that pays enough after childcare, commuting, etc. to be worth the trouble, Mom has to stay home.

 

So while modern American society may accept the different roles a woman might choose, her actual choices are determined more by her earning potential, family's means, etc.

Edited October 23, 2010 by nova mama

[ThatCyndiGirl]

Hmmmm...In certain cultures women are treated as possessions first to their fathers, then to their husbands. They don't have a choice in who they marry, nor do they have a choice to leave their husbands. There are horrible atrocities that happen to women who try to change this (rape, torture, murder.) Women have not always had power. Men are overall phycically stronger than women and therefore I don't think women have always had the power. Does that make any sense?

 

We still do this in American culture with the whole "asking the father for the daughter's hand in marraige". :001_huh: I would have turned tail and walked away from dh forever if he had asked my father if we could get married. Purely MY decision and dh's!! I don't have to ask anyone's permission nor did dh. It is insulting and assumes that the daughter/bride is property. Gross!

[Rosie_0801]

I read an article this morning discussing a Chinese woman that was 8 months pregnant with her 2nd child and forced to have an abortion. This wasn't something that the father wanted either. There are many women in China forced into abortions that they don't want and I don't think they would be able to collectively change that.

 

You've never heard of s.x strikes? It's amazing what the wives of powerful men can accomplish if they choose to. I agree a bunch of average women couldn't change the policy you describe, but the wives of those in power possibly could if they wanted to. Of course sisterhood solidarity is rarely a given. Perhaps most upper class Chinese women agree with the policy. Who knows. I am not saying these things are simple or that they are always possible.

 

Rosie

[annandatje]

Men hold the economic power in the developed world, and, unfortunately, that is about the only power that is relevant in industrialized societies.

 

In hunter gatherer socieites, I would posit that men also held the power since their size and physical strength exceeded that of females.

[MamaSheep]

You know, I was thinking about this the other day, in relation to a conversation I had with my mom. Mom "stayed home" and raised 7 kids. Dad had a career in which he became fairly well known in his field and helped to make policy in certain areas on a regional and even national level. Dad retired a few years ago. In our conversation, Mom was telling me that Dad had been feeling a little discouraged lately because all the policies he worked so hard for have been rewritten, his work has been taken up by someone else, most of the people that work in his old department are people who never even knew him, and he feels like he put in all that effort over all those years, and now it's as if he never even existed there. On the other hand, all those years he was working Dad almost never got to decide what to have for dinner, or how most of his paycheck would be spent. He worked hard, and handed all his earnings over to Mom. Dad was at our school functions and present at home as much as he could be, he was a good Dad, but just because of logistics it was Mom who was there at the crossroads for the kids. Our education, not just in academics, but in morals and in our view of how society "should be" come largely, if not almost entirely from Mom. She said it sometimes felt small and limited at the time, but now that she is "retired" she is seeing her influence expanding, rather than contracting as Dad's is. Her values are being played out in her children's professional decisions as well as their family decisions. Her values, concerns, and priorities are influencing the structure of public buildings in one state, the legal system in another, the medical profession in another still...it goes on. And they are being passed on to yet another generation as well, who will be able to go out in the world and influence it. It's perhaps a more subtle kind of "power" than than weilded by Dad in his career, but can be just as long-lasting, and maybe even more so in some ways. It tends to affect a society from the roots up, rather than from the top down, but it's not an illusion, it's a real form of power. And it's one of the reasons that I really believe that the "true" power comes in working together. When we have respect for both the "top down" kind of power and the "roots up" kind of power, and channel them both in the same direction we can accomplish all sorts of things we won't be able to as long as we're still bickering about which kind of power is "better" and who should control each.

[jld]

Another vote for men. Especially men with money.

[nova mama]

You know, I was thinking about this the other day, in relation to a conversation I had with my mom. Mom "stayed home" and raised 7 kids. Dad had a career in which he became fairly well known in his field and helped to make policy in certain areas on a regional and even national level. Dad retired a few years ago. In our conversation, Mom was telling me that Dad had been feeling a little discouraged lately because all the policies he worked so hard for have been rewritten, his work has been taken up by someone else, most of the people that work in his old department are people who never even knew him, and he feels like he put in all that effort over all those years, and now it's as if he never even existed there. On the other hand, all those years he was working Dad almost never got to decide what to have for dinner, or how most of his paycheck would be spent. He worked hard, and handed all his earnings over to Mom. Dad was at our school functions and present at home as much as he could be, he was a good Dad, but just because of logistics it was Mom who was there at the crossroads for the kids. Our education, not just in academics, but in morals and in our view of how society "should be" come largely, if not almost entirely from Mom. She said it sometimes felt small and limited at the time, but now that she is "retired" she is seeing her influence expanding, rather than contracting as Dad's is. Her values are being played out in her children's professional decisions as well as their family decisions. Her values, concerns, and priorities are influencing the structure of public buildings in one state, the legal system in another, the medical profession in another still...it goes on. And they are being passed on to yet another generation as well, who will be able to go out in the world and influence it. It's perhaps a more subtle kind of "power" than than weilded by Dad in his career, but can be just as long-lasting, and maybe even more so in some ways. It tends to affect a society from the roots up, rather than from the top down, but it's not an illusion, it's a real form of power. And it's one of the reasons that I really believe that the "true" power comes in working together. When we have respect for both the "top down" kind of power and the "roots up" kind of power, and channel them both in the same direction we can accomplish all sorts of things we won't be able to as long as we're still bickering about which kind of power is "better" and who should control each.

 

How beautiful about Mom and a little sad about Dad. But working together, they were able to accomplish great things through their children. Thanks for sharing.

[justamouse]

In our conversation, Mom was telling me that Dad had been feeling a little discouraged lately because all the policies he worked so hard for have been rewritten, his work has been taken up by someone else, most of the people that work in his old department are people who never even knew him, and he feels like he put in all that effort over all those years, and now it's as if he never even existed there. On the other hand, all those years he was working Dad almost never got to decide what to have for dinner, or how most of his paycheck would be spent.

 

 

But don't you see, that's how most women's lives are? And that's just his perception, that's not the truth because had he not written those policies in the first place, there would be nothing to rewrite. Policies can be living things that grow and change, he built the foundation.

 

How much do you know about the mothers in Darfur, struggling to raise their children and who will die, unknown to most of the world, whose lives are completely controlled by the militia who are raping and killing as they go? Is their power expanding as their lives go on?

 

 

 

Rosie:Lysistrata, right? The sex strike?

[jld]

But don't you see, that's how most women's lives are? And that's just his perception, that's not the truth because had he not written those policies in the first place, there would be nothing to rewrite. Policies can be living things that grow and change, he built the foundation.

 

How much do you know about the mothers in Darfur, struggling to raise their children and who will die, unknown to most of the world, whose lives are completely controlled by the militia who are raping and killing as they go? Is their power expanding as their lives go on?

 

 

 

:iagree:

[MamaSheep]

I'm not saying the world is perfect. I'm just saying I think it's a matter that's frequently oversimplified. And a discussion that too often focuses on the wrong things.

 

Even in Darfur not all men are brutes and not all women are helpless victims.

[jld]

You're right, Amy. It's not a simple issue. If all men respected women, I doubt there would have been a feminist movement. If all people with money and power used those resources only for the betterment of everyone, I doubt we'd have wars or maybe even political parties.

 

And I agree with you that cooperation is definitely the way to go, if at all possible.