I was just told by a math teacher

[creekland]

Programs like Everyday Math and TERC Investigations were intentionally designed to be *like* Asian math programs. And the group work is part of the package.

 

 

Everyday Math has just provided me with a whole room of Alg 2 Students that had to pull out calculators to multiply 4 * 2 and to take the square root of 25. BUT they trusted one member of their group to do it correctly! ;)

 

I'm NOT making this up. This is what they did, in class, today while working on arithmetic and geometric sequences.

 

They also WON'T do math without their calculators... and can't work with radical signs (like square roots). It's really, really frustrating. There are some bright kids in the class, but... I feel sorry for them!

[wapiti]

It's just many posts seem to lampoon the very notion that group problem solving exercises have any value. And I think that is a very wrong notion.

 

FWIW, I think you are correct. From what my friends told me years ago, group projects were a primary feature of business school, though I don't know whether the groups were actually problem-solving as opposed to delegating portions of projects. However, I think business school students may be a tad more mature than elementary school students, with better-developed problem-solving skills. (And when I was practicing law, we often had informal group "strategizing" meetings, which were often really helpful - but they were helpful at solving a particular problem, not learning, and the utility was based entirely on the already-learned expertise of the individuals present - the more experienced ones being the "teachers", if you will. Sure one could learn little things here and there, but learning how to tackle a problem from the start was more of a solitary activity.)

 

IMO, elementary school math is a poor venue for experiencing(?) group problem solving. Inefficient, and possibly ineffective, are words that come to mind, if the goal is learning math.

 

It might be interesting to dissect what the advantages are of group problem-solving in an elementary educational environment, and whether they are any greater than, say, a socratic method employed by the teacher, or other methods, if the goal is getting each and every student to use their brain. (hmmm, what are the goals, exactly...)

 

just thinking out loud...

Edited September 29, 2010 by wapiti

[Audrey]

Everyday Math has just provided me with a whole room of Alg 2 Students that had to pull out calculators to multiply 4 * 2 and to take the square root of 25. BUT they trusted one member of their group to do it correctly! ;)

 

I'm NOT making this up. This is what they did, in class, today while working on arithmetic and geometric sequences.

 

They also WON'T do math without their calculators... and can't work with radical signs (like square roots). It's really, really frustrating. There are some bright kids in the class, but... I feel sorry for them!

 

 

A similar thing happened at our local kids' curling club meeting recently (this is the junior curlers grades 4-8). One group member asked how much they'd have if they agreed to up the member fee by $5. There are 12 kids in the group. Ds says right away, "$60 more. Or $300 total" (previous fee was $20). The person asking said, "you can't tell without doing the math!" and proceeded to punch it into her calculator. Well, the $60 was right, but she couldn't figure out how he got the $300. She couldn't think through the problem enough to know what to punch into the calculator. Sadly enough, between 4 of the members, they still couldn't figure it out. My ds took a pencil and wrote it out on paper:

 

Fee now = $20 x 12 members = $240

Fee increase = $5 x 12 members = $60

$240 + $60 = $300

 

They STILL could not get how he came to that answer! He even wrote down that the new fee = $25 x 12 = $300 and they said that was not right! We adults are not supposed to step in and do the meeting for them. The other parent there was laughing. I thought that was rude and unhelpful, so I finally had to say that the answer was correct.

 

And, yes... our local school uses Everyday Math. So much for that "group math" they're supposed to be teaching them. :001_rolleyes:

Edited September 29, 2010 by Audrey

[ZooRho]

Everyday Math has just provided me with a whole room of Alg 2 Students that had to pull out calculators to multiply 4 * 2 and to take the square root of 25. BUT they trusted one member of their group to do it correctly! ;)

 

I'm NOT making this up. This is what they did, in class, today while working on arithmetic and geometric sequences.

 

They also WON'T do math without their calculators... and can't work with radical signs (like square roots). It's really, really frustrating. There are some bright kids in the class, but... I feel sorry for them!

I worked in a ps in the spring helping math students prepare for the State test. It was exactly this. Most children couldn't function without the calculators. and it really is taking them longer to do math because they can't see the workings of the numbers.

 

And I'm trying to remember the group activities. I do think it was mostly one or 2 kids doing the work and the rest sponging

[Supertechmom]

A similar thing happened at our local kids' curling club meeting recently (this is the junior curlers grades 4-8). One group member asked how much they'd have if they agreed to up the member fee by $5. There are 12 kids in the group. Ds says right away, "$60 more. Or $300 total" (previous fee was $20). The person asking said, "you can't tell without doing the math!" and proceeded to punch it into her calculator. Well, the $60 was right, but she couldn't figure out how he got the $300. She couldn't think through the problem enough to know what to punch into the calculator. Sadly enough, between 4 of the members, they still couldn't figure it out. My ds took a pencil and wrote it out on paper:

 

Fee now = $20 x 12 members = $240

Fee increase = $5 x 12 members = $60

$240 + $60 = $300

 

They STILL could not get how he came to that answer! He even wrote down that the new fee = $25 x 12 = $300 and they said that was not right! We adults are not supposed to step in and do the meeting for them. The other parent there was laughing. I thought that was rude and unhelpful, so I finally had to say that the answer was correct.

 

And, yes... our local school uses Everyday Math. So much for that "group math" they're supposed to be teaching them. :001_rolleyes:

 

 

I just gave this problem to my 9 year old always homeschooled - Singapore math (5a), Ray's arthimetic, Keys to fractions and Miqion math- can't seem to comprehend math boy.

 

I asked him if we had a group of 12 kids with 20 fee per kid, how much would we have if we raised the fee $5.00? Standing in front of me, he turned his head to the side, twisted his lips around a moment and then said $300.00 total, increase of 60.00 ( You have no idea the relief that he got it right!):D

 

 

Our district uses EM and the teenager at Mcdonalds had a power outage. He finally just told the customer to put his hand in the till and take out his change because HE could NOT figure out the change. My hubby nearly died when his customer told him !:svengo:

 

How are we supposed to produce engineers and scientists with this kind of math stupidity??

[Perry]

A similar thing happened at our local kids' curling club meeting recently (this is the junior curlers grades 4-8). One group member asked how much they'd have if they agreed to up the member fee by $5. There are 12 kids in the group. Ds says right away, "$60 more. Or $300 total" (previous fee was $20). The person asking said, "you can't tell without doing the math!" and proceeded to punch it into her calculator. Well, the $60 was right, but she couldn't figure out how he got the $300. She couldn't think through the problem enough to know what to punch into the calculator. Sadly enough, between 4 of the members, they still couldn't figure it out. My ds took a pencil and wrote it out on paper:

 

Fee now = $20 x 12 members = $240

Fee increase = $5 x 12 members = $60

$240 + $60 = $300

 

They STILL could not get how he came to that answer! He even wrote down that the new fee = $25 x 12 = $300 and they said that was not right! We adults are not supposed to step in and do the meeting for them. The other parent there was laughing. I thought that was rude and unhelpful, so I finally had to say that the answer was correct.

 

And, yes... our local school uses Everyday Math. So much for that "group math" they're supposed to be teaching them. :001_rolleyes:

I bought a pound of butter for 2.99 at my local market. I handed the cashier a 5 dollar bill, and she had to go get the calculator. How can you not figure that out in your head?!

 

She is a senior at our very highly regarded Iowa public high school. Our district uses Math Trailblazers for elementary, not EM. But they're very similar.

[Supertechmom]

A similar thing happened at our local kids' curling club meeting recently (this is the junior curlers grades 4-8). One group member asked how much they'd have if they agreed to up the member fee by $5. There are 12 kids in the group. Ds says right away, "$60 more. Or $300 total" (previous fee was $20). The person asking said, "you can't tell without doing the math!" and proceeded to punch it into her calculator. Well, the $60 was right, but she couldn't figure out how he got the $300. She couldn't think through the problem enough to know what to punch into the calculator. Sadly enough, between 4 of the members, they still couldn't figure it out. My ds took a pencil and wrote it out on paper:

 

Fee now = $20 x 12 members = $240

Fee increase = $5 x 12 members = $60

$240 + $60 = $300

 

They STILL could not get how he came to that answer! He even wrote down that the new fee = $25 x 12 = $300 and they said that was not right! We adults are not supposed to step in and do the meeting for them. The other parent there was laughing. I thought that was rude and unhelpful, so I finally had to say that the answer was correct.

 

And, yes... our local school uses Everyday Math. So much for that "group math" they're supposed to be teaching them. :001_rolleyes:

 

 

Another reason this bothers me is because only the strong personalities "win" the arguement over the "correct" answer. If you are correct and every one else wrong, that doesn't matter. It's the loudest person, strongest or most popular who wins, right or wrong. It's only over time, when you are always right that people begin to listen. ANd that's only if the rest care about the grade to side with you. Elementary kids follow the pecking order even in group assignments. How does that help teach them math???

 

Singpaore's method does do group activities. But it's typically with the entire class under the guidance and direction of the teacher who MONITORS the activity. Not little groups of 4 or 5 who are left to fend for themselves.

[creekland]

A similar thing happened at our local kids' curling club meeting recently (this is the junior curlers grades 4-8). One group member asked how much they'd have if they agreed to up the member fee by $5. There are 12 kids in the group. Ds says right away, "$60 more. Or $300 total" (previous fee was $20). The person asking said, "you can't tell without doing the math!" and proceeded to punch it into her calculator. Well, the $60 was right, but she couldn't figure out how he got the $300. She couldn't think through the problem enough to know what to punch into the calculator. Sadly enough, between 4 of the members, they still couldn't figure it out. My ds took a pencil and wrote it out on paper:

 

Fee now = $20 x 12 members = $240

Fee increase = $5 x 12 members = $60

$240 + $60 = $300

 

They STILL could not get how he came to that answer! He even wrote down that the new fee = $25 x 12 = $300 and they said that was not right! We adults are not supposed to step in and do the meeting for them. The other parent there was laughing. I thought that was rude and unhelpful, so I finally had to say that the answer was correct.

 

And, yes... our local school uses Everyday Math. So much for that "group math" they're supposed to be teaching them. :001_rolleyes:

 

If I had a class now I'd put that one on the board as a "warm up" and see if the kids could get it or not. I wouldn't want to put bets on it. However, I'm done for the day - last period Prep.

 

I wish they would ban calculators before Algebra... and only use them sparingly in Algebra. Instead, they start teaching kids to push buttons in 1st grade.

[wapiti]

Another reason this bothers me is because only the strong personalities "win" the arguement over the "correct" answer. If you are correct and every one else wrong, that doesn't matter. It's the loudest person, strongest or most popular who wins, right or wrong. It's only over time, when you are always right that people begin to listen. ANd that's only if the rest care about the grade to side with you. Elementary kids follow the pecking order even in group assignments. How does that help teach them math???

 

:iagree: This sort of thing always bothered me growing up, as an introverted person who was reluctant to speak up because doing so was often not fruitful. (it's unpleasant to imagine Lord of the Flies for learning math.)

[Spy Car]

FWIW, I think you are correct. From what my friends told me years ago, group projects were a primary feature of business school, though I don't know whether the groups were actually problem-solving as opposed to delegating portions of projects. However, I think business school students may be a tad more mature than elementary school students, with better-developed problem-solving skills. (And when I was practicing law, we often had informal group "strategizing" meetings, which were often really helpful - but they were helpful at solving a particular problem, not learning, and the utility was based entirely on the already-learned expertise of the individuals present - the more experienced ones being the "teachers", if you will. Sure one could learn little things here and there, but learning how to tackle a problem from the start was more of a solitary activity.)

 

IMO, elementary school math is a poor venue for experiencing(?) group problem solving. Inefficient, and possibly ineffective, are words that come to mind, if the goal is learning math.

 

It might be interesting to dissect what the advantages are of group problem-solving in an elementary educational environment, and whether they are any greater than, say, a socratic method employed by the teacher, or other methods, if the goal is getting each and every student to use their brain. (hmmm, what are the goals, exactly...)

 

just thinking out loud...

 

It is very interesting to watch films of how the Japanese use group activities to incorporate learning activities that are roughly analogous to the "discovery based" learning one finds in Miquon math on and individual level.

 

These Japanese exercises don't involve one child using a calculator and the rest cribbing the answer, as I'm sure happens in poorly designed "group." they are designed for the children need to cooperate to find solutions, and use critical thinking skills.

 

There are many methods for effective teaching. What's dangerous is to have the sorts of wild swing in education where it all has to be "the fad of the moment" especially when the imitation of what "works" bears little or no resemblance to the supposed "model." Badly done group exercises (or any other badly done method) leads to back-lashes where the baby goes out with the bathwater.

 

Not so long ago we had a thread about how poorly children using an Israeli math program based around Cuisenaire Rods performed in their schools. So leading Israeli math experts (and parents) started condemning the use of C. rods and other manipulative, instead of looking at how those tools were used. That is the sort of thinking that occurs time and again, and to my mind it is quite a dangerous trend in education.

 

There are all sorts of methods that can be successful and all sorts of ways to take good ideas and good tools and make hash of them. Wisdom comes in knowing the difference.

 

Bill

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

A similar thing happened at our local kids' curling club meeting recently (this is the junior curlers grades 4-8). One group member asked how much they'd have if they agreed to up the member fee by $5. There are 12 kids in the group. Ds says right away, "$60 more. Or $300 total" (previous fee was $20). The person asking said, "you can't tell without doing the math!" and proceeded to punch it into her calculator. Well, the $60 was right, but she couldn't figure out how he got the $300. She couldn't think through the problem enough to know what to punch into the calculator. Sadly enough, between 4 of the members, they still couldn't figure it out. My ds took a pencil and wrote it out on paper:

 

Fee now = $20 x 12 members = $240

Fee increase = $5 x 12 members = $60

$240 + $60 = $300

 

They STILL could not get how he came to that answer! He even wrote down that the new fee = $25 x 12 = $300 and they said that was not right! We adults are not supposed to step in and do the meeting for them. The other parent there was laughing. I thought that was rude and unhelpful, so I finally had to say that the answer was correct.

 

And, yes... our local school uses Everyday Math. So much for that "group math" they're supposed to be teaching them. :001_rolleyes:

 

:svengo:

[mommaduck]

She was explicitly referring to Everyday Math.

So all of us adults that grew up before "Everyday Math" came out are incompetent in the workplace? Hurry, fire all of the Professors of Advanced Mathematics! They're no longer competent in today's society!

 

 

*snort, chuckle, snort...mutters the word idiotic*

[Spy Car]

Another reason this bothers me is because only the strong personalities "win" the arguement over the "correct" answer. If you are correct and every one else wrong, that doesn't matter. It's the loudest person, strongest or most popular who wins, right or wrong. It's only over time, when you are always right that people begin to listen. ANd that's only if the rest care about the grade to side with you. Elementary kids follow the pecking order even in group assignments. How does that help teach them math???

 

Singpaore's method does do group activities. But it's typically with the entire class under the guidance and direction of the teacher who MONITORS the activity. Not little groups of 4 or 5 who are left to fend for themselves.

 

I find it strangely serendipitous that I had a midnight conversation on these very points last night with a great teacher at our school (following a screening for teachers and parents) of the documentary "Waiting for Superman."

 

He (smart teacher) sets up the first group project for "failure" just so that group dynamics that favor personality over reason are shown up as potentially dysfunctional and counter productive. In the after-math of failure the kids need to ponder how to work in small groups, discuss it, and find the means to that sort of success. This man is a brilliant teacher and has been very successful in getting children to work in small groups. So, again, it is about how one uses tools and techniques. Any tool can be used badly. That doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad tool.

 

Bill

[Perry]

 

He (smart teacher) sets up the first group project for "failure" just so that group dynamics that favor personality over reason are shown up as potentially dysfunctional and counter productive. In the after-math of failure the kids need to ponder how to work in small groups, discuss it, and find the means to that sort of success.

 

Bill

As a student, I would have hated that, and it would not lead me to ponder how to work in small groups. Does he think he can change their personalities? :confused:

[Spy Car]

As a student, I would have hated that, and it would not lead me to ponder how to work in small groups. Does he think he can change their personalities? :confused:

 

I don't know that he believes he can change personalities, but I definitely think he believes he can change behaviors. He brings values based ideas into the classroom. Developing and understanding of personable responsibility and expectations for good behavior are cornerstones of his teaching method. And the results show in the classroom, where the enthusiasm is high, and where (in his words) he brings a bit of "home-school" to the public school.

 

He had a particularly difficult teaching challenge in the past several years in taking on a 4th/5th Grade "split." Students "needed" to be able to work well in small groups for there to be class-room success. And he's found a number of methods to make that work.

 

There is certainly a central role for individual work, but being able to work effectively in teams is a life-skill that pays rewards in the real world as we are rarely islands unto ourselves and without disparaging individual achievement in any way there are times when collaboration in constructive partnership with others makes for a better result than working alone.

 

It is just a tool that can be used badly or well.

 

Bill

[stripe]

I bought a pound of butter for 2.99 at my local market. I handed the cashier a 5 dollar bill, and she had to go get the calculator. How can you not figure that out in your head?!

 

How about when you owe 10c and you hand the cashier a $1 bill, and she gives you back $1.10?

[mommaduck]

How about when you owe 10c and you hand the cashier a $1 bill, and she gives you back $1.10?

Well, after a few drawer counts, she won't have a job.

 

I've been a cashier and an obsessive one with my drawer counts. I only remember ONCE having my drawer come up short and I made darn sure I found my mistake. Good grief, what are they teaching nowadays?!

[FlockOfSillies]

{Scene from a real-world office, a la Everyday Math...}

 

Boss: OK, everyone, team math meeting!

{workers file into conference room}

Boss: So, let's go around the room. Everyone tell me your favorite number, and why it's your favorite number.

Worker #1: 42! It's the answer to everything.

Worker #2: 12! My daughter turns twelve tomorrow.

Worker #3: Is this meeting required by HR?

Boss: If you draw me a picture depicting your favorite number, you can leave early for lunch.

{papers rustling...}

[Barry Goldwater]

A similar thing happened at our local kids' curling club meeting recently (this is the junior curlers grades 4-8). One group member asked how much they'd have if they agreed to up the member fee by $5. There are 12 kids in the group. Ds says right away, "$60 more. Or $300 total" (previous fee was $20). The person asking said, "you can't tell without doing the math!" and proceeded to punch it into her calculator. Well, the $60 was right, but she couldn't figure out how he got the $300. She couldn't think through the problem enough to know what to punch into the calculator. Sadly enough, between 4 of the members, they still couldn't figure it out. My ds took a pencil and wrote it out on paper:

 

Fee now = $20 x 12 members = $240

Fee increase = $5 x 12 members = $60

$240 + $60 = $300

 

They STILL could not get how he came to that answer! He even wrote down that the new fee = $25 x 12 = $300 and they said that was not right! We adults are not supposed to step in and do the meeting for them. The other parent there was laughing. I thought that was rude and unhelpful, so I finally had to say that the answer was correct.

 

And, yes... our local school uses Everyday Math. So much for that "group math" they're supposed to be teaching them. :001_rolleyes:

 

So sad. I've had a nearly identical experience AS AN ADULT, AT WORK with MY BOSS who couldn't figure out how I did the math in my head w/o calculator, and faster than he could punch it in...a little awkward, as he was one of those who needed to be the 'smartest' in the room...I don't work there anymore :lol:.

[kalanamak]

 

But I'd still be loathe to suggest that all group problem solving exercise are worthless because some teacher made a stupid comment.

 

 

Well, having been subjected to many in my 7.5 years of undergrad study, I think it is very personality dependent, and while I literally spend my days solving problematic issues with a variety of groups*, it is not how I learned the basics, or even advanced topics (it is something I do with what I already know). I do not learn in groups, I am terrible at learning in groups, and find them very frustrating.

 

Groups come with such a wide variety of failures (make-busy-work groups, one person does it all groups, everyone else way ahead of you or way behind you groups, group has one person with a serious personality disorder groups, people in competition with at least a pair of back-stabbers groups) I am reminded of the famous Tolstoy line about how all happy families are alike and all unhappy ones are unhappy in their own way. The particulars necessary for good group work are so narrow, I've never seen them align, and my low tolerance for time wasting, window dressing, and BS makes me a poor candidate for educational group projects or problem solving. If you've learned this way, I laud your luck and style, but would not hope to hold out for such a situation for the average Joe.

 

:lol: Perhaps the rather tragic hikkomori (I shouldn't be laughing) of Japan has to do with math groups! I know I'd have a stomach ache.

 

 

*e.g. today I dealt with a nursing signout group who was trying to integrate a pair of new students with the ward, a regular ward group who is trying to cope with a trio of very new and very sick psychotics, a different ward group coping with a pair of patients who are having intolerable side effects to their psychiatrically effective medications, an other ward group needing ideas on persistent pedophilia and on the discharge of a patient whose diabetic care is going to have to have a radical change for placement, an over-lunch roundtable on the war going on between different buildings in the hospital as resources and staff are cut cut cut in wake of the budget cuts, and, via email, trying to plan a menu and insulin regime with a pharmacist and a pair of dieticians, because the recipes we were given for 1000 servings each, and will not be prepared by anyone with any formal background in cooking. All of the above was problem-solving: I cannot claim to have blanket disability when it comes to groups. I actually THRIVE with them....but real groups, with people who know each other, who work with experience and who are generally stable day to day, with one or two new members at a time transitioning in, not a ad hoc group tossed together because they are all enrolled in the same class.

[Nan in Mass]

I have a question for you, Spy Car - I think I learned to work in a group by playing with the neighborhood children after school. This was the group I and everyone else was stuck with and we learned to work things out. I keep reading that children are too busy with after school activities now for unsupervised neighborhood play. Do you think all this emphasis on group work in the schools is an attempt to make up for that? Or do you think it is caused by our society's ability and interest in Asia, just as the improvement in math and science was due to competition with the Russians? The media seems to grown and moan over both issues in relationship to US children.

-Nan

[Angie in VA]

Oh, no! My hubby balances our checkbook by himself. Is that illegal? I'd better tell him to stop that asap and do it at work w/ his co-workers!

 

Puh-leez!

 

And LOL at Daisy's comment, "How many mathematicians does it take to solve a math problem?" Good one!

[Claire in NM]

I know because I used to be a math teacher, and this is especially true at the end of the school year.

 

All the math teachers in our high school celebrate the end of the year by going out to lunch at a local restaurant (This is the group part).

 

And then, we make sure the waiter or waitress writes our orders separately. And, being conscientious customers, we each figure out our own tip (usually 15% - because the service is good). But sometimes, a couple of teachers decide to split a combination plate because it has too much food for just one person. Then those two math teachers have to figure out the tip (usually 15% - again, because the service is good) and the two math teachers divide the tip by 2, because neither wants to pay the entire tip (This is the math part).

 

True story...

 

Claire in NM

[LaissezFaire]

I don't recall ever doing math in a group in PS.

[mcconnellboys]

When, in the real world, does one every do "group" math, unless perhaps one is an engineer, architect, etc. working on a group project? Most people never do "group" math, unless you count receiving your change from cashiers, waiters, etc. and counting it to make sure it's correct as a "group" endeavor (because presumably both sides have counted the change).....

[Spy Car]

When, in the real world, does one every do "group" math, unless perhaps one is an engineer, architect, etc. working on a group project? Most people never do "group" math, unless you count receiving your change from cashiers, waiters, etc. and counting it to make sure it's correct as a "group" endeavor (because presumably both sides have counted the change).....

 

The best group math activities don't involve one child solving an equation while the others watch, instead they work on encouraging problem solving though cooperative means. Group problem solving is something most people face in the work-force and in community organizations of every sort. It is an essential skill.

 

One ought to be able to function both individually and as part of a team.

 

Bill

[lovemyboys]

Oh, well that makes a difference. It took me 2 YEARS to catch my youngest up in math after he was introduced to that fiasco in our elementary school. I pulled him out after 4th grade...

 

Ugh. What a pain for all of you!

 

My neighbors whose kids were in a "great" ps regularly stood around the neighborhood comparing notes, either trying to figure out some of the EM curric. (as in, why it was so convoluted) or lamenting the stupidity of it.

[lovemyboys]

How hard was it not to burst out laughing?

 

I'm not a great mathlete(which means I'm not mathy;)), but when I was working on a hard problem in school I didn't want anyone bothering me, much less a group setting.

 

I get math but I don't love it...especially compared with a college roommate who would figure out statistics of things for fun.

 

But I remember the joy of figuring something out....like how to set up a computer program or tackle something complex.

 

 

Like someone mentioned about cheating....it probably would be a situation where one or two do most of the actual work and the others just write it down.

[Photo Ninja]

Another reason this bothers me is because only the strong personalities "win" the arguement over the "correct" answer. If you are correct and every one else wrong, that doesn't matter. It's the loudest person, strongest or most popular who wins, right or wrong... Elementary kids follow the pecking order even in group assignments. How does that help teach them math???

 

 

This is so true!

 

My dd's friend had horrible experiences while doing group math in 2nd grade. Her mother had taught her math at home because she was not convinced that the teacher was teaching well and she didn't want her dd to be weak on basic math skills. Her class did lots of group math. Each group had 4 students, and they each had to have a job. One person was the leader, one the recorder (wrote down the steps), one was the presenter (told the answer the group arrived at to the class) and one more that I don't remember. Anyway, they were given word problems to solve and they had to figure out for themselves a process to get the answer because the curriculum held the philosophy that students will learn better by discovering mathematical methods and processes for themselves instead of being taught how to do the math problem.

 

There was a long division problem and the students in the group couldn't figure out how to do it. Dd's friend knew how to solve the problem and showed them. The others said that she couldn't be right and proposed a different method and got a different answer. She wouldn't agree and told them their answer was wrong. When it was time to present, the 'presenter' said that 3 of them said the answer was x, but dd's friend wouldn't agree and said the answer was Y. It turns out that dd's friend was correct, and none of the groups got the correct answer. But she did. She received an F for math that day, even though her answer was right. She came home crying because of it, so her mother talked to the teacher. The teacher said she received an F because she didn't cooperate with the other 3 students in her group because they were supposed to all agree with one answer and she refused to cooperate. The other students received As for that day's math because they worked together and agreed on an answer. The teacher said that it didn't matter if their answer was correct. They were supposed to work together and agree with an answer, and dd's friend refused to go along with them. My friend was furious and told the teacher that her dd didn't agree with the group because the group was wrong. The teacher insisted that the answer didn't matter because the other students would eventually learn how to do that kind of math, but it was more important that her dd learn to cooperate with others.

 

My friend ended up pulling her dd out of school and hsing her because this happened a couple more times and her dd was upset that the only way to get an A was to go along with what she knew was wrong.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Photo Ninja
fixed typo

[Allearia]

This is so true!

 

My dd's friend had horrible experiences while doing group math in 2nd grade. Her mother had taught her math at home because she was not convinced that the teacher was teaching well and she didn't want her dd to be weak on basic math skills. Her class did lots of group math. Each group had 4 students, and they each had to have a job. One person was the leader, one the recorder (wrote down the steps), one was the presenter (told the answer the group arrived at to the class) and one more that I don't remember. Anyway, they were given word problems to solve and they had to figure out for themselves a process to get the answer because the curriculum held the philosophy that students will learn better by discovering mathematical methods and processes for themselves instead of being taught how to do the math problem.

 

There was a long division problem and the students in the group couldn't figure out how to do it. Dd's friend knew how to solve the problem and showed them. The others said that she couldn't be right and proposed a different method and got a different answer. She wouldn't agree and told them their answer was wrong. When it was time to present, the 'presenter' said that 3 of them said the answer was x, but dd's friend wouldn't agree and said the answer was Y. It turns out that dd's friend was correct, and none of the groups got the correct answer. But she did. She received an F for math that day, even though her answer was right. She came home crying because of it, so her mother talked to the teacher. The teacher said she received an F because she didn't cooperate with the other 3 students in her group because they were supposed to all agree with one answer and she refused to cooperate. The other students received As for that day's math because they worked together and agreed on an answer. The teacher said that it didn't matter if their answer was correct. They were supposed to work together and agree with an answer, and dd's friend refused to go along with them. My friend was furious and told the teacher that her dd didn't agree with the group because the group was wrong. The teacher insisted that the answer didn't matter because the other students would eventually learn how to do that kind of math, but it was more important that her dd learn to cooperate with others.

 

My friend ended up pulling her dd out of school and hsing her because this happened a couple more times and her dd was upset that the only way to get an A was to go along with what she knew was wrong.

 

That is one of the craziest stories I have ever heard. What a horrible experience for that child. A terrible message, that as long as everyone agrees it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong?

[mcconnellboys]

Having worked for many years and having been involved with community work since moving here, I'm aware of the group dynamic involved in those endeavors, thank you. I somehow managed to do it, like many my age, without ever having done "group math" while growing up - which was my point....

Edited October 3, 2010 by mcconnellboys

[Imprimis]

That is one of the craziest stories I have ever heard. What a horrible experience for that child. A terrible message, that as long as everyone agrees it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong?

 

:iagree: This illustrates what a fine line there is between group cooperation and pack mentality.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

That is one of the craziest stories I have ever heard. What a horrible experience for that child. A terrible message, that as long as everyone agrees it doesn't matter if it is right or wrong?

 

:iagree: C.R.A.Z.Y. for sure!

 

It reminds me of a test I saw once about how peer pressure influences adults as well as children. The subjects were put in groups where everyone else was in on it and all of them were shown a group of items of different length. Then everyone was supposed to say what the longest item was. So, all the planted people gave the same wrong answer and it is patently obvious that it was not the longest. The vast majority of the time, the subjects went along with the majority because that's what everyone else said.

 

Is this the kind of world we want to live in?! I think not! I would have taken that F to the media. Seriously. That is outrageous!

[kalanamak]

The vast majority of the time, the subjects went along with the majority because that's what everyone else said.

 

 

 

This is one of my favorite studies. I loved the black and white photo of the crew-cutted "subject" who was so anxious about it, he fell off the chair.

 

I recall the "go along with it" rate is 75%, with both the agreers and non-agreers often suffering internal turmoil.

[Joker]

:iagree: C.R.A.Z.Y. for sure!

 

It reminds me of a test I saw once about how peer pressure influences adults as well as children. The subjects were put in groups where everyone else was in on it and all of them were shown a group of items of different length. Then everyone was supposed to say what the longest item was. So, all the planted people gave the same wrong answer and it is patently obvious that it was not the longest. The vast majority of the time, the subjects went along with the majority because that's what everyone else said.

 

Is this the kind of world we want to live in?! I think not! I would have taken that F to the media. Seriously. That is outrageous!

 

Isn't that the Asch experiment? I remember reading about it in Sociology in college. It was very disturbing to know so many just followed the crowd.

 

To the OP - my dh was a math major in college and uses it everyday in his job but it is not a group effort. There may be a group project but they don't work in a group. I think its something you can pick up quick if you need to.

[Spy Car]

The vast majority of the time, the subjects went along with the majority because that's what everyone else said.

 

 

Which is exactly the reason to have people be experienced in using critical thinking in group settings to arrive at correct answers and good solutions rather than being cowed into agreeing with nonsense that is partially a result of inexperience with collaborative problem solving.

 

We educate in part to overcome bad tendencies and personal disinclinations to work in collaboration with others exactly because bad decision making can result when those skill are absent. People (children) should have the experience of successfully working with others to find solutions to problems.

 

Bill

[CAMom]

He (smart teacher) sets up the first group project for "failure" just so that group dynamics that favor personality over reason are shown up as potentially dysfunctional and counter productive. In the after-math of failure the kids need to ponder how to work in small groups, discuss it, and find the means to that sort of success. This man is a brilliant teacher and has been very successful in getting children to work in small groups. So, again, it is about how one uses tools and techniques. Any tool can be used badly. That doesn't necessarily mean it is a bad tool.

 

Bill

 

Before I started homeschooling my oldest (who will be 18 4 weeks from tomorrow!:)), he attended a private Christian school.

 

During the first few weeks of 2nd grade, the teacher gave a group project that was set up for failure. My son has Tourette Syndrome. His tics had been almost completely under control for about two months. When I picked him up from school that day his tics were going crazy! When I asked him what was going on he told me all about the project that the teacher had given and he was beyond upset that it was an impossibility. It took a few weeks to get his tics back to where they were before the incident.

 

Group projects are not always in the best interest of everyone involved.;)

 

BTW, he still remembers the incident very vividly.:)

[Joker]

double post

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Which is exactly the reason to have people be experienced in using critical thinking in group settings to arrive at correct answers and good solutions rather than being cowed into agreeing with nonsense that is partially a result of inexperience with collaborative problem solving.

 

We educate in part to overcome bad tendencies and personal disinclinations to work in collaboration with others exactly because bad decision making can result when those skill are absent. People (children) should have the experience of successfully working with others to find solutions to problems.

 

Bill

 

If the majority of teachers could so eloquently express this positive and rational intent of groupwork and then succeed in making it so, we might have something. But, alas...

 

Obviously, there can be benefits to working in groups, even doing math in groups. I think the point a lot of people are trying to make (including me in a point buried on page 2 or so) is that the way group work is typically done in this country is not benefiting many kids. As you said, your ds attends a great school with great teachers. I bet he has great group work, supervised and productive, where the kids who don't do their part get low grades rather than the minority who have the nerve to disagree with incorrect answers. :tongue_smilie: For most of us, this was not our experience. In most schools across this country (as you know from reading and re-reading Ma), the kids are not getting great group math experiences. I remember saying something about the blind leading the blind. Does that mean no kid should get any group math experience ever? Of course not. But it's the reason for the raw reactions of most posting in this thread. I was one who was always group leader. For my group math experiences, the term group leader meant the person who did all the work, got the right answer and then was irritated and powerless as everyone else in the group was awarded my grade even though I was the only one with a work ethic or, even more importantly, an understanding of the material! How did that meet anyone's needs? It made me mad and it made them none the wiser!

 

Yes, there is beneficial group work. I would love to know the ratio of beneficial to BS.

 

If Liping Ma could come teach my dc in the school down the street, I'd be all about the group work. But here? It isn't happening. I promise. That's what it is here in the-middle-of-nowhere-TX. In that case, for the children's sake, I would just as soon like them to stick to the text. :tongue_smilie:

Edited October 3, 2010 by Alte Veste Academy

[sagira]

Group problem solving which includes an adult (per group) would be beneficial. But not isolated. I think math could have situations where groups could solve a few step by step problems.

 

However, I think especially science lends itself to this group problem-solving ability nicely. BFSU explains it well in the forechapter.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

I recall the "go along with it" rate is 75%, with both the agreers and non-agreers often suffering internal turmoil.

 

Thanks! I didn't remember the percentage. I just remember being stunned! I am so not a person who goes along. I remember watching it with DH and he was laughing at me because I was so outraged that anyone would go along with something so patently ridiculous. :lol:

 

Isn't that the Asch experiment? I remember reading about it in Sociology in college. It was very disturbing to know so many just followed the crowd.

 

Yes, very disturbing. I think I saw a replication of the experiment (pretty sure it was on Dateline or some other show like that :tongue_smilie:). That's especially sad since I was a Social Worker in a former life and probably read about the first study.

[Spy Car]

If the majority of teachers could so eloquently express this positive and rational intent of groupwork and then succeed in making it so, we might have something. But, alas...

 

Obviously, there can be benefits to working in groups, even doing math in groups. I think the point a lot of people are trying to make (including me in a point buried on page 2 or so) is that the way group work is typically done in this country is not benefiting many kids. As you said, your ds attends a great school with great teachers. I bet he has great group work, supervised and productive, where the kids who don't do their part get low grades rather than the minority who have the nerve to disagree with incorrect answers. :tongue_smilie: For most of us, this was not our experience. In most schools across this country (as you know from reading and re-reading Ma), the kids are not getting great group math experiences. I remember saying something about the blind leading the blind. Does that mean no kid should get any group math experience ever? Of course not. But it's the reason for the raw reactions of most posting in this thread. I was one who was always group leader. For my group math experiences, the term group leader meant the person who did all the work, got the right answer and then was irritated and powerless as everyone else in the group was awarded my grade even though I was the only one with a work ethic or, even more importantly, an understanding of the material! How did that meet anyone's needs? It made me mad and it made them none the wiser!

 

Yes, there is beneficial group work. I would love to know the ratio of beneficial to BS.

 

If Liping Ma could come teach my dc in the school down the street, I'd be all about the group work. But here? It isn't happening. I promise. That's what it is here in the-middle-of-nowhere-TX. In that case, for the children's sake, I would just as soon like them to stick to the text. :tongue_smilie:

 

Would it help if I conceded the point that much of the group work in schools in this country is probably BS?

 

I know that there are lot of dumb ways to teach things. And I'm sure I'd be as annoyed as the OP if someone said something a stupid to me about my child as was said about theirs.

 

It just does not eliminate the fact that group problem solving (done well) can be a very useful tool in education. Does that mean it is always (or even usually) done well? Clearly no.

 

I'd just rather see teachers learn to use these sort of tools effectively rather than striking them from the tool-box. It is to our national detriment to have children move though our schools without learning how to effectively problem solve in groups.

 

Bill

[kalanamak]

 

There is certainly a central role for individual work, but being able to work effectively in teams is a life-skill that pays rewards in the real world as we are rarely islands unto ourselves and without disparaging individual achievement in any way there are times when collaboration in constructive partnership with others makes for a better result than working alone.

 

 

I often "hear music" when I see certain people, or read certain posters. I'm going to admit it Bill: I hear Lennon singing Imagine every post of yours. I've never admitted this possibly odd trait to anyone else but a very nice social work who always made a tape of The Girl From Ipanema run through my brain. Other people-songs I hear include Alley Cat, Baby Elephant Walk, The Blue Danube, Green Onions, Moscow Nights, Quiet Village and Brother Can You Spare A Dime. There! I've said it.

[Spy Car]

I often "hear music" when I see certain people, or read certain posters. I'm going to admit it Bill: I hear Lennon singing Imagine every post of yours. I've never admitted this possibly odd trait to anyone else but a very nice social work who always made a tape of The Girl From Ipanema run through my brain. Other people-songs I hear include Alley Cat, Baby Elephant Walk, The Blue Danube, Green Onions, Moscow Nights, Quiet Village and Brother Can You Spare A Dime. There! I've said it.

 

I can live with that :D

 

Bill

[swimmermom3]

I often "hear music" when I see certain people, or read certain posters. I'm going to admit it Bill: I hear Lennon singing Imagine every post of yours. I've never admitted this possibly odd trait to anyone else but a very nice social work who always made a tape of The Girl From Ipanema run through my brain. Other people-songs I hear include Alley Cat, Baby Elephant Walk, The Blue Danube, Green Onions, Moscow Nights, Quiet Village and Brother Can You Spare A Dime. There! I've said it.

 

Now you have done it. I'll be humming that tune for the rest of the evening. What a perfect song to link Bill to.:D

[creekland]

 

There was a long division problem and the students in the group couldn't figure out how to do it. Dd's friend knew how to solve the problem and showed them. The others said that she couldn't be right and proposed a different method and got a different answer. She wouldn't agree and told them their answer was wrong. When it was time to present, the 'presenter' said that 3 of them said the answer was x, but dd's friend wouldn't agree and said the answer was Y. It turns out that dd's friend was correct, and none of the groups got the correct answer. But she did. She received an F for math that day, even though her answer was right. She came home crying because of it, so her mother talked to the teacher. The teacher said she received an F because she didn't cooperate with the other 3 students in her group because they were supposed to all agree with one answer and she refused to cooperate. The other students received As for that day's math because they worked together and agreed on an answer. The teacher said that it didn't matter if their answer was correct. They were supposed to work together and agree with an answer, and dd's friend refused to go along with them. My friend was furious and told the teacher that her dd didn't agree with the group because the group was wrong. The teacher insisted that the answer didn't matter because the other students would eventually learn how to do that kind of math, but it was more important that her dd learn to cooperate with others.

 

 

 

Yes, this is the type of math that is horrid in my mind. It reminds me so much of several of the bad points in history - like Nazi Germany, for instance - when so many of the people later said they were just doing "what they were told" instead of thinking about what was right.

 

I'm sorry, but I'm all for adults working in groups to solve a problem - maybe even teens - but not for LEARNING how to do the math involved. I've heard many teachers talk about how positive it is, but then I see the results and the two aren't equal.

[LG Gone Wild]

Would it help if I conceded the point that much of the group work in schools in this country is probably BS?

I know that there are lot of dumb ways to teach things. And I'm sure I'd be as annoyed as the OP if someone said something a stupid to me about my child as was said about theirs.

 

It just does not eliminate the fact that group problem solving (done well) can be a very useful tool in education. Does that mean it is always (or even usually) done well? Clearly no.

 

I'd just rather see teachers learn to use these sort of tools effectively rather than striking them from the tool-box. It is to our national detriment to have children move though our schools without learning how to effectively problem solve in groups.

 

Bill

 

 

Yes. :tongue_smilie:

[kalanamak]

 

I'd just rather see teachers learn to use these sort of tools effectively rather than striking them from the tool-box. It is to our national detriment to have children move though our schools without learning how to effectively problem solve in groups.

 

I really see the vast majority of math as individual effort. Use group-solve for things that are geared towards groups. In real life, where groups are common and commonly done badly (inefficiently), individuals with VARYing skills and knowledge come together. The IT person inputs what is possible IT wise, the communications person inputs what the new machines can do, the nurses input what they need at their end, pharmacy inputs the snags at their end, etc. To have a clutch of kids, all of the same ilk, trying to learn MATH at the same time as GROUPING, is something I'm glad homeschooling will make my son avoid.

 

Learn one thing at a time, and use "group skills class" on something the kids are already comfortable with. It would be like teaching typing and math at the same time: here is our new math problem...type out your answer. For me, as a child, and for my little guy, I would see nothing but tears and frustration, and then loathing of math and school.

 

For young children, I would think groups that are active, rather than cerebral, would be better: treasure hunts or physically building something.

[Spy Car]

I really see the vast majority of math as individual effort.

 

But if one studies something like the Manhatten Project one discovers that many breakthroughs in the atomic project came as a result of collaborative problem solving. And it is not all about "math." In the working world and in our community organizations people need to effectively collaborate, or they suffer the consequences.

 

Groups that can't effectily work in collaboration are disfunctional. Effective collaboration is something that can be learned. Many people are not comfortable working in groups and I'd say learning to overcome personality issues or preferences that make us less effective in life than we might otherwise be is an important part of ones education.

 

Most people in their working lives do not work in isolation. The study show that many people will go along with the wrong answer in groups is ****ing because it shows a lack of critical thinking. If people can't think critically in groups we are in trouble as a society.

 

For young children, I would think groups that are active, rather than cerebral, would be better: treasure hunts or physically building something.

 

I agree.

 

Bill

[kalanamak]

T

Yes, very disturbing. I think I saw a replication of the experiment (pretty sure it was on Dateline or some other show like that :tongue_smilie:). That's especially sad since I was a Social Worker in a former life and probably read about the first study.

 

I recall a thread about some people believing the study of psychology was bad for children (for religious reasons). A good grounding in our foibles, Bacon's Errors of the Tribe, is important. Remember Kitty Genovese? The Bystander Effect? Because I have studied this, I immediately call for help when a group of people are witnessing something. I ASSUME everyone else has assumed someone else has called.