For those who believe in Biblical submission with mutual respect...

[BMW]

Are there areas that you wont submit on?

 

I believe in the husband's headship of his home and the supporting role of a wife, but I also believe that as fellow Christians we are to have mutual submission... that listening goes both ways and that there is wisdom of a wife that should be considered...

 

Since I came out of an abusive first marriage, I am a bit... hmmm... strong in my stand when it comes to an area I feel that I am not being considered...

 

I'm not sure how to express it... but, for me, there are areas that I feel "submission" is set aside. For example, if the husband is asking something illegal or immoral... that's an easy one for us to agree on. But, what is he is being hurtful? What if he seems unreasonable? What if he is asking for very inconvenient things that do not take the wife's needs into consideration? When is it okay for a wife to say, "I hear what you are saying, but that is not respectful of me as a person and I need to go with plan B?"

 

Where are those lines drawn?

 

For me, I draw the line on drinking alcohol in excess, using distasteful obscenity type words in conversation (I would walk away and refuse to speak if dh spoke that way), and verbal abuse... not to mention any physical abuse, that seems like a no-brainer... and occasions where you feel something VERY strongly regarding the children...

 

If you draw a line on something, how do you handle it? Has it ever happened in your marriage? Did you respectfully tell your dh that you cannot agree to that?

[Mabeline]

The way I see it, submission comes with respect and love. The whole verse about submission applies. In each verse God commands the husband to love his wife. I don't think I would be obligated by God to submit to a man that didn't love me as God commands. JMHO

 

Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands.

Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish. In the same way husbands should love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church, because we are members of his body. “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.†This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church. However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

 

—Ephesians 5:22-33

 

Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives, and do not be harsh with them.

 

 

—Colossians 3:18-19

[mominbc]

I read the most amazing book about this subject that puts it in a very balanced way. The website for the book and ministry is http://www.loveandrespect.com/ but you can buy the book at all Christian book stores. It is a very balanced approach in my opinion and makes you feel like you are important and valued and have needs that need to be met at as well. HTH :)

[OnTheBrink]

Sin issues. I won't submit to lying, cheating, stealing, covering sin, or anything else contrary to Scripture, or personal conviction, such as drinking, etc.

[JudoMom]

Sin issues. I won't submit to lying, cheating, stealing, covering sin, or anything else contrary to Scripture, or personal conviction, such as drinking, etc.

 

:iagree:

[Julie in Austin]

Sin issues. I won't submit to lying, cheating, stealing, covering sin, or anything else contrary to Scripture, or personal conviction, such as drinking, etc.

 

What I find interesting about this is that you, then, are putting yourself in a role of judging a husband ("Is this thing a sin or not?"). And I think that is a really good thing: he takes on a leadership role, you take on a judging role, you both keep a check on each other's behavior as you help the family unit move closer to God.

[fhjmom]

I am going to be very transparent here because I feel God's voice in a very real and powerful way in my life on this very issue. I am typically a very stong, independent person and Biblical submission was an idea that I have always struggled with. After my DH and I were married, I realized that he had a problem with addiction and alcohol. I honestly was not aware of it before we were married, but I firmly believed that God brought us together and we were supposed to be married. I was not willing to leave the marriage and I prayed harder for my husband and my marriage to be redeemed from alcoholism. The entire time though, I tried to rule over my husband and *make* him change. I tried to control him, control where he went, who he was with and how he spent our money. It didn't work and our marriage and his alcoholism bwere spiralling out of control.

 

During this time I was involved in a ladies' Bible study where we were discussing the topic of Biblical submission. Yes, God's command was that both parties are to have an attitude of respect and care for the other, but there is no "if" in those verses. It does not call me as a wife to submit to my husband "if" he was loving me as Christ loved the church. The command was written with a period after instructions were given to the wife. Then a command was given to the husband, with his own period. Believe me I struggled with this because surely God did not intend for me to submit to an alcoholic husband, did He!?!? I was convicted that yes, He did. Even though DH had his back against the wall and was refusing to lead our family, it was not my job to take on that role; I was supposed to squeeze myself behind him and expect him to lead.

 

I submitted to my husband, I quit trying to control him and I turned our marriage and his addictions over to God and prayed like I had never prayed in my life. Within two months my husband had confessed his addictions to me and began seeking treatment. He has now been over 5 years since he has had a drink and we are growing in our marriage. It isn't perfect but we are committed to each other and our family. I firmly believe that I had to submit in order for him to be able to be in a place he could confess to me what was really going on in his life. Had I not followed God's will at that very difficult time, I do not know how long, if ever, it would have taken my DH to seek help.

 

Now I think the issue for most people is what Biblical submission looks like and how it is different that the modern definition of the term. During that time, I still set healthy boundaries for myself and my children. I did not "roll over" and just blindly do what ever my DH told me to do, nor did I simpy look the other way with our finances or other family issues. I don't think that is what it is supposed to be. It is hard for me to explain, but I know in my heart what God has called me to.

 

I know this may not be a popular view and it is difficult to share in such a public forum as an online message board, but there may be someone reading this that is struggling in a similar situation and if my story can help, I willing to share it.

[Catwoman]

I know this may not be a popular view and it is difficult to share in such a public forum as an online message board, but there may be someone reading this that is struggling in a similar situation and if my story can help, I willing to share it.

 

While I may have handled things differently if I'd been in your situation, I admire and respect you for having demonstrated such faith and courage.

 

I've made no secret on this forum that I'm not a submissive wife, but I very much appreciate it that you have shared your story without casting judgement on anyone else, and without saying that your way is the only right way to do things. I'm so glad to hear that things worked out so well for you and your husband. He is truly lucky to have you as his wife.

 

Thank you for your very thoughtful post. :)

 

Cat

[Daisy]

My pastor talked on something similar today. Basically he offered up two filters for when and how spouses should submit to each others expectations.

 

1. Biblically revealed.

 

A spouse has the right to impose expectations that are Biblical revealed. That means a spouse has the reasonable expectation that their spouse will be faithful, honest, respectful, honoring, kind, etc. That means that swearing, drinking to excess, cheating, abuse, etc. are NEVER allowed within a marriage.

 

That also means everything else is negotiable. Who takes out the trash. Who balances the checkbook. Who takes care of the yard and who does the laundry. There is no biblical mandate for chores.

 

2. Expectations that have been mutually agreed upon and as necessary and attainable.

 

That means compromise. Plain and simple. It means the couple discusses and comes to an agreement on what is necessary and attainable. He wants a big breakfast made for him every single morning. She doesn't get up before he leaves for work. Obviously some negotiating needs to happen. Once agreed upon, each spouse needs to stick with their end of the bargain.

 

Now I suppose some families decide that the husband's expectations carry more weight than the wife's. I think that is crazy. I think mutually agreed upon works better because it requires sacrifice from both parties.

 

None of the above flies in the face of Paul's admonition that wives submit to their husbands and husbands love their wives. Paul spoke to the spouses based on the corner they were in. He knew wives would tend to camp out in the love corner but with disrespect (griping, nagging). Men would tend to camp out in a less emotional corner. So Paul said something like, "Men get out of your head-heavy corner and move towards love. Wives get out of your lovey-dovey corner and show your man some respect. You'll meet in the middle and have a great marriage."

Edited August 1, 2010 by Daisy

[Mynyel]

For me it depends. I will not be dictated to. I will not "submit" if told I have to do something just because he wants me to. Nope.

 

Fortunately my dh has never been like that and has never said no you can't do that (for anything). There is no submission on either of our parts. We discuss and come to an accord.

 

I also wouldn't "submit" if it was something harmful or stupid (like buying a big screen TV instead of paying rent type thing).

[Scarlett]

Are there areas that you wont submit on?

 

I believe in the husband's headship of his home and the supporting role of a wife, but I also believe that as fellow Christians we are to have mutual submission... that listening goes both ways and that there is wisdom of a wife that should be considered...

 

Since I came out of an abusive first marriage, I am a bit... hmmm... strong in my stand when it comes to an area I feel that I am not being considered...

 

I'm not sure how to express it... but, for me, there are areas that I feel "submission" is set aside. For example, if the husband is asking something illegal or immoral... that's an easy one for us to agree on. But, what is he is being hurtful? What if he seems unreasonable? What if he is asking for very inconvenient things that do not take the wife's needs into consideration? When is it okay for a wife to say, "I hear what you are saying, but that is not respectful of me as a person and I need to go with plan B?"

 

Where are those lines drawn?

 

For me, I draw the line on drinking alcohol in excess, using distasteful obscenity type words in conversation (I would walk away and refuse to speak if dh spoke that way), and verbal abuse... not to mention any physical abuse, that seems like a no-brainer... and occasions where you feel something VERY strongly regarding the children...

 

If you draw a line on something, how do you handle it? Has it ever happened in your marriage? Did you respectfully tell your dh that you cannot agree to that?

 

Men can't be perfect husbands and women can't be perfect wives. There are a couple of examples in the Bible that provide us with how God views the role of wife...one is when Abraham was told by God, 'Listen to her (Sarah's) voice.' And the other was when Abigail went against her 'good for nothing' husband and took provisions to David and his men. She stopped terrible bloodshed from ensuing .

 

So 'submissive' doesn't mean doormat. It is part of the big lie of the Headship arrangement.

[Catwoman]

I also wouldn't "submit" if it was something harmful or stupid (like buying a big screen TV instead of paying rent type thing).

 

But what if it was a really, really nice tv? ;) :tongue_smilie:

 

Cat

 

PS. My dh and I believe in compromise, but the whole submission thing doesn't appeal to either of us. If it works for others, I'm fine with it, but I am very uncomfortable when someone gets too preachy about it being the only way to have a successful marriage.

[i.love.lucy]

My pastor talked on something similar today. Basically he offered up two filters for when and how spouses should submit to each others expectations.

 

1. Biblically revealed.

 

A spouse has the right to impose expectations that are Biblical revealed. That means a spouse has the reasonable expectation that their spouse will be faithful, honest, respectful, honoring, kind, etc. That means that swearing, drinking to excess, cheating, abuse, etc. are NEVER allowed within a marriage.

 

That also means everything else is negotiable. Who takes out the trash. Who balances the checkbook. Who takes care of the yard and who does the laundry. There is no biblical mandate for chores.

 

2. Expectations that have been mutually agreed upon and as necessary and attainable.

 

That means compromise. Plain and simple. It means the couple discusses and comes to an agreement on what is necessary and attainable. He wants a big breakfast made for him every single morning. She doesn't get up before he leaves for work. Obviously some negotiating needs to happen. Once agreed upon, each spouse needs to stick with their end of the bargain.

 

Now I suppose some families decide that the husband's expectations carry more weight than the wife's. I think that is crazy. I think mutually agreed upon works better because it requires sacrifice from both parties.

 

None of the above flies in the face of Paul's admonition that wives submit to their husbands and husbands love their wives. Paul spoke to the spouses based on the corner they were in. He knew wives would tend to camp out in the love corner but with disrespect (griping, nagging). Men would tend to camp out in a less emotional corner. So Paul said something like, "Men get out of your head-heavy corner and move towards love. Wives get out of your lovey-dovey corner and show your man some respect. You'll meet in the middle and have a great marriage."

:iagree:Good post, Daisy. As usual!

[OnTheBrink]

What I find interesting about this is that you, then, are putting yourself in a role of judging a husband ("Is this thing a sin or not?"). And I think that is a really good thing: he takes on a leadership role, you take on a judging role, you both keep a check on each other's behavior as you help the family unit move closer to God.

 

Not so much judging him specifically, but keeping myself accountable to God first. If, for example, a husband lies on the taxes and expects the wife to sign the form, I think she should say no (if she knows he's lied). And, I know my pastor would support that. But, yes, I do think h's and w's should keep each other accountable to live by the standards to which they profess. If a wife submits to her husband and he's causing her to sin (and she knows it) she's accountable to God for that, even though the husband will be accountable to God for asking her to do it. Ultimately, we're responsible for our own actions.

[kmacnchs]

What I find interesting about this is that you, then, are putting yourself in a role of judging a husband ("Is this thing a sin or not?"). And I think that is a really good thing: he takes on a leadership role, you take on a judging role, you both keep a check on each other's behavior as you help the family unit move closer to God.

 

You are not judging your husband (if judging = deciding what is right/wrong), you are only upholding what God has judged to be ungodly or not. We are to submit to God first and foremost. If God says to not do something and your husband tells you to do it, it would be your job to submit to God first!

 

However, in many (if not most) instances, I realize there is a time to submit happily and a time to discuss things with dh. For example, dh wants to go out to eat but we do not have the $$ in the budget to do so. So, do I say, "we don't have the $$?" Some would say I should b/c I am trying to be a good steward of our $$, as God desires. However, this is not the time to "discuss" things, this is the time to submit. I used to "discuss" (not submit) at this time and dh would just say, "we are going out to eat" and if I continued, it turned into an argument. Or, do I say, "okay" happily? I used to do the first but now I do the later. There are many times to speak of the budget with my dh but in the moment, it is godly to submit to him and go out to eat. I know this seems trivial but, as we tell our children, it is just as important to submit in the little things as in the big things.

 

So, imo, my dh asking me to do something illegal or abusing me is ungodly and God would certainly not want me to continue living in sin with him or encouraging him to live in sin (though I am not condoning divorce). Other than that, I think it is godly to submit to our dhs, whether or not they take into consideration what is going on at the moment (how full our hands are, etc.). This is one way I show love to him and to God. Then, when the kids are asleep (for example), I could speak with him about how maybe he could try to see what I am doing before he asks me to drop everything to come look at something neat on the computer (for example). It is dh's desire to show me love as well but sometimes men don't know how - we have to give them suggestions sometimes (at appropriate times) as many are naturally oblivious to our desires :)

[Daisy]

 

However, in many (if not most) instances, I realize there is a time to submit happily and a time to discuss things with dh. For example, dh wants to go out to eat but we do not have the $$ in the budget to do so. So, do I say, "we don't have the $$?" Some would say I should b/c I am trying to be a good steward of our $$, as God desires. However, this is not the time to "discuss" things, this is the time to submit. I used to "discuss" (not submit) at this time and dh would just say, "we are going out to eat" and if I continued, it turned into an argument. Or, do I say, "okay" happily? I used to do the first but now I do the later. There are many times to speak of the budget with my dh but in the moment, it is godly to submit to him and go out to eat. I know this seems trivial but, as we tell our children, it is just as important to submit in the little things as in the big things.

 

 

 

This is foreign to me. If the two of you have decided that you will be handling the finances then, it seems you have the responsibility to say something.

 

In my house that looks like this..."I didn't set aside any cash for eating out today. Do you still want to go? I have some money set aside at home for "x" and we could use that, or we can go home and I'll make you [insert something I know he likes]". He can still decide but I've given him the information necessary to make an informed decision. He isn't going to appreciate later our going into debt because I didn't tell him we were using Monopoly money to satisfy his burger craving.

 

He would extend me the same courtesy when I'm deciding something (curriculum comes to mind).

 

Hubby and I talk/discuss stuff all the time and in front of the kids. My children are learning that marriage is a two-way street where pros and cons are discussed and compromises are made in order to ensure the best health of the family. Discussion and information doesn't have to lead to an argument.

[katemary63]

Are we talking about in the context of a Christian marriage where husband and wife are both Christians? Is this really an issue? Do your Christian husbands expect you to "submit?" I believe wholeheartedly in the verses quoted by a previous poster, and in the idea of the husband being the head and leader of the family. But in my opinion, this should just never come up unless there is some hugely important matter in which a DH feels compelled by God to lead his family in a direction that his wife doesn't align with at which point he says with the greatest humility imaginable, "I'm so sorry that we haven't come to an agreement on this, but I have prayed about it and feel with all my heart that this is what God would have me do and I'm asking for your support." Anything other then this is just selfish dictatorship. I honestly can't figure out what kind of context the issue of submission actually comes up in a Christian marriage other then mentioned above. My DH and I are a team and afford each other mutual respect. We discuss things, compromise and come to some agreement before we act or make a decision. If it weren't that way, we'd be in Christian counseling until we were. I would never put up with a "Christian" husband who lorded his "Bilbical authority" over me.

[Daisy]

Are we talking about in the context of a Christian marriage where husband and wife are both Christians? Is this really an issue? Do your Christian husbands expect you to "submit?" I believe wholeheartedly in the verses quoted by a previous poster, and in the idea of the husband being the head and leader of the family. But in my opinion, this should just never come up unless there is some hugely important matter in which a DH feels compelled by God to lead his family in a direction that his wife doesn't align with at which point he says with the greatest humility imaginable, "I'm so sorry that we haven't come to an agreement on this, but I have prayed about it and feel with all my heart that this is what God would have me do and I'm asking for your support." Anything other then this is just selfish dictatorship. I honestly can't figure out what kind of context the issue of submission actually comes up in a Christian marriage other then mentioned above. My DH and I are a team and afford each other mutual respect. We discuss things, compromise and come to some agreement before we act or make a decision. If it weren't that way, we'd be in Christian counseling until we were. I would never put up with a "Christian" husband who lorded his "Bilbical authority" over me.

 

:iagree::iagree: Only one time have I ever "submitted" because we were unable to come to an agreement. That was when we moved to @#$% California and honestly, he was just as miserable as I was about it, which made me feel a little better. LOL.

[Scarlett]

Are we talking about in the context of a Christian marriage where husband and wife are both Christians? Is this really an issue? Do your Christian husbands expect you to "submit?" I believe wholeheartedly in the verses quoted by a previous poster, and in the idea of the husband being the head and leader of the family. But in my opinion, this should just never come up unless there is some hugely important matter in which a DH feels compelled by God to lead his family in a direction that his wife doesn't align with at which point he says with the greatest humility imaginable, "I'm so sorry that we haven't come to an agreement on this, but I have prayed about it and feel with all my heart that this is what God would have me do and I'm asking for your support." Anything other then this is just selfish dictatorship. I honestly can't figure out what kind of context the issue of submission actually comes up in a Christian marriage other then mentioned above. My DH and I are a team and afford each other mutual respect. We discuss things, compromise and come to some agreement before we act or make a decision. If it weren't that way, we'd be in Christian counseling until we were. I would never put up with a "Christian" husband who lorded his "Bilbical authority" over me.

 

I'll take one of those husbands!

[Scarlett]

:iagree::iagree: Only one time have I ever "submitted" because we were unable to come to an agreement. That was when we moved to @#$% California and honestly, he was just as miserable as I was about it, which made me feel a little better. LOL.

 

LOL....did you manage to choke back the words 'I told you so!'?

[Renee in NC]

LOL....did you manage to choke back the words 'I told you so!'?

 

I never told my dh "I told you so!" about moving to FL. I did not want to come here, did not want to leave my ds behind, did not want anything to do with the idea! At first I wasn't going to move at all - I was going to stay in NC and have him come see us. My oldest said that was stupid and that I needed to go. So I did.

 

My dh hates it here.;)

[katemary63]

However, in many (if not most) instances, I realize there is a time to submit happily and a time to discuss things with dh. For example, dh wants to go out to eat but we do not have the $$ in the budget to do so. So, do I say, "we don't have the $$?" Some would say I should b/c I am trying to be a good steward of our $$, as God desires. However, this is not the time to "discuss" things, this is the time to submit. I used to "discuss" (not submit) at this time and dh would just say, "we are going out to eat" and if I continued, it turned into an argument. Or, do I say, "okay" happily? I used to do the first but now I do the later. There are many times to speak of the budget with my dh but in the moment, it is godly to submit to him and go out to eat. I know this seems trivial but, as we tell our children, it is just as important to submit in the little things as in the big things.

 

This may sound harsh, but....I do not think this is a picture of Biblical submission at all. This is not an example of a Christian relationship, it is tiptoeing on eggshells. If you can't talk about weather or not to splurge on dinner out without it turning into an argument, then there is a problem. If my DH and I are thinking about eating out even though we don't have the money, we'll discuss it and see if we both want to go ahead and splurge. If either one of us thinks it's best not to, then we don't. Only if we both agreed would we go ahead. What is there to argue about? That's called mutual submission and THAT'S what the Bible teaches. A relationship like this where a wife is afraid to speak her mind for fear of turning a discussion into an argument is exactly what I was talking about in my first post. Saying nothing and calling it submission is just a rational for avoiding a confrontation. I would insist on Christian counseling.

 

One more point. Comparing YOUR submission to your husband to a CHILD'S submission to a parent is....um....just doesn't sit well with me at all. The two are not the same and I'm sad that you think so.

[katemary63]

Hubby and I talk/discuss stuff all the time and in front of the kids. My children are learning that marriage is a two-way street where pros and cons are discussed and compromises are made in order to ensure the best health of the family. Discussion and information doesn't have to lead to an argument.

 

:iagree:Absolutely!

[Rosie_0801]

If you don't mind that I believe in the style of relationship you're talking about, without having God telling me so...

 

When is it okay for a wife to say, "I hear what you are saying, but that is not respectful of me as a person and I need to go with plan B?"

 

Where are those lines drawn?

 

 

That line is drawn when I find myself telling dh not to be the sort of person I feel the need to protect my kids from. That's only happened a few times. He didn't like being told that, but once he came down off his high horse we were able to finish conversing in a more productive fashion.

 

Rosie

[simka2]

Are we talking about in the context of a Christian marriage where husband and wife are both Christians? Is this really an issue? Do your Christian husbands expect you to "submit?" I believe wholeheartedly in the verses quoted by a previous poster, and in the idea of the husband being the head and leader of the family. But in my opinion, this should just never come up unless there is some hugely important matter in which a DH feels compelled by God to lead his family in a direction that his wife doesn't align with at which point he says with the greatest humility imaginable, "I'm so sorry that we haven't come to an agreement on this, but I have prayed about it and feel with all my heart that this is what God would have me do and I'm asking for your support." Anything other then this is just selfish dictatorship. I honestly can't figure out what kind of context the issue of submission actually comes up in a Christian marriage other then mentioned above. My DH and I are a team and afford each other mutual respect. We discuss things, compromise and come to some agreement before we act or make a decision. If it weren't that way, we'd be in Christian counseling until we were. I would never put up with a "Christian" husband who lorded his "Bilbical authority" over me.

 

I couldn't have said this better!!!!

[Heatherwith4]

I am fortunate not to have a lot of trouble in this area. My DH is very thoughtful by nature. Of course, he's not perfect, but when he doesn't think of me in a situation, I can usually let him know with no problem.

There are areas where we have disagreed. Homeschooling used to be one of them. However, we both prayed about it, and God worked it out.

 

Anyway, I'm rambling a bit here :) Obviously, there are situations where submission is not going to be a good idea. If you/dc are in physical danger, if there are legal issues involved. Other than that, I think it's something a wife would have to pray about very seriously before deciding.

Guys don't necessarily have it easy either; they are supposed to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Basically, that's going to be impossible.

I also found this:

1 Peter 3:7-"Husbands, in the same way, show consideration for your wives in your life together, paying honor to the woman as the weaker sex, since they too are also heirs of the gracious gift of life--so that nothing may hinder your prayers."

The Greek work translated as "weaker sex" here is actually "vessel", a physical container. Husbands are specifically reminded to honor women in the context of them being weaker physically. If they do not honor their wives, their prayers will be hindered. In others words, a husband physically dishonoring a wife interferes with the husband's relationship to God.

[Heatherwith4]

Are we talking about in the context of a Christian marriage where husband and wife are both Christians? Is this really an issue? Do your Christian husbands expect you to "submit?" I believe wholeheartedly in the verses quoted by a previous poster, and in the idea of the husband being the head and leader of the family. But in my opinion, this should just never come up unless there is some hugely important matter in which a DH feels compelled by God to lead his family in a direction that his wife doesn't align with at which point he says with the greatest humility imaginable, "I'm so sorry that we haven't come to an agreement on this, but I have prayed about it and feel with all my heart that this is what God would have me do and I'm asking for your support." Anything other then this is just selfish dictatorship. I honestly can't figure out what kind of context the issue of submission actually comes up in a Christian marriage other then mentioned above. My DH and I are a team and afford each other mutual respect. We discuss things, compromise and come to some agreement before we act or make a decision. If it weren't that way, we'd be in Christian counseling until we were. I would never put up with a "Christian" husband who lorded his "Bilbical authority" over me.

 

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree: You said this way better than I tried to...I feel like I should just go erase my post. :lol:

[Joanne]

Are there areas that you wont submit on?

 

I believe in the husband's headship of his home and the supporting role of a wife, but I also believe that as fellow Christians we are to have mutual submission... that listening goes both ways and that there is wisdom of a wife that should be considered...

 

Since I came out of an abusive first marriage, I am a bit... hmmm... strong in my stand when it comes to an area I feel that I am not being considered...

 

I'm not sure how to express it... but, for me, there are areas that I feel "submission" is set aside. For example, if the husband is asking something illegal or immoral... that's an easy one for us to agree on. But, what is he is being hurtful? What if he seems unreasonable? What if he is asking for very inconvenient things that do not take the wife's needs into consideration? When is it okay for a wife to say, "I hear what you are saying, but that is not respectful of me as a person and I need to go with plan B?"

 

Where are those lines drawn?

 

For me, I draw the line on drinking alcohol in excess, using distasteful obscenity type words in conversation (I would walk away and refuse to speak if dh spoke that way), and verbal abuse... not to mention any physical abuse, that seems like a no-brainer... and occasions where you feel something VERY strongly regarding the children...

 

If you draw a line on something, how do you handle it? Has it ever happened in your marriage? Did you respectfully tell your dh that you cannot agree to that?

 

 

I'll be completely honest with you. These should not be *lines* in any relationship. They should be flat out standards of behavior. "Submission" shouldn't figure in at all. There should not be "submission" except.........{insert clearly out of line behavior}.

 

I worry when a woman who has emerged from an abusive dynamic adopts a "wifely" or "wife only" submission Christian culture.

[Rosy]

Sin issues. I won't submit to lying, cheating, stealing, covering sin, or anything else contrary to Scripture, or personal conviction, such as drinking, etc.

 

For me it depends. I will not be dictated to. I will not "submit" if told I have to do something just because he wants me to. Nope.

 

Fortunately my dh has never been like that and has never said no you can't do that (for anything). There is no submission on either of our parts. We discuss and come to an accord.

 

I also wouldn't "submit" if it was something harmful or stupid (like buying a big screen TV instead of paying rent type thing).

 

Are we talking about in the context of a Christian marriage where husband and wife are both Christians? Is this really an issue? Do your Christian husbands expect you to "submit?" I believe wholeheartedly in the verses quoted by a previous poster, and in the idea of the husband being the head and leader of the family. But in my opinion, this should just never come up unless there is some hugely important matter in which a DH feels compelled by God to lead his family in a direction that his wife doesn't align with at which point he says with the greatest humility imaginable, "I'm so sorry that we haven't come to an agreement on this, but I have prayed about it and feel with all my heart that this is what God would have me do and I'm asking for your support." Anything other then this is just selfish dictatorship. I honestly can't figure out what kind of context the issue of submission actually comes up in a Christian marriage other then mentioned above. My DH and I are a team and afford each other mutual respect. We discuss things, compromise and come to some agreement before we act or make a decision. If it weren't that way, we'd be in Christian counseling until we were. I would never put up with a "Christian" husband who lorded his "Bilbical authority" over me.

:iagree::iagree::iagree: All of the above. This is how I understand Biblical submission.

 

I also will walk out if a conversation turns ugly. That rarely happens anymore. I would also not hesitate to begin the process of church discipline if my husband was walking in unrepentant sin--approaching him with a respected friend, then going to the pastors. I also don't think it's wrong in *extreme* circumstances to separate in order to save the marriage, or to divorce if there was abuse or adultery.

 

Submission isn't unqualified or absolute, and instruction about a Christian marriage relationship is always in the context of our relationship as believers. A Christian husband should be following the "one another" rules in the Bible, as well as the instruction specific to husbands. (and vice versa)

[BMW]

Joanne, I was hoping that you would chime in here, knowing a bit of your story...

 

I don't really live out a "wifely submission" role in our home and at times that does frustrate my dh because he wants to play the card "I am the head of the house!" And I just toss that card in the trash, so to speak... I do my best to be respectful of him in all the areas he has earned respect. To me, respect is earned... and honoring someone for their headship is fine, but that doesn't mean, to me, that he and he alone is to be the one calling the shots... I believe that both partners should be striving to honor God, respecting each other and caring about each other's needs...

[Retired]

Are we talking about in the context of a Christian marriage where husband and wife are both Christians? Is this really an issue? Do your Christian husbands expect you to "submit?" I believe wholeheartedly in the verses quoted by a previous poster, and in the idea of the husband being the head and leader of the family. But in my opinion, this should just never come up unless there is some hugely important matter in which a DH feels compelled by God to lead his family in a direction that his wife doesn't align with at which point he says with the greatest humility imaginable, "I'm so sorry that we haven't come to an agreement on this, but I have prayed about it and feel with all my heart that this is what God would have me do and I'm asking for your support." Anything other then this is just selfish dictatorship. I honestly can't figure out what kind of context the issue of submission actually comes up in a Christian marriage other then mentioned above. My DH and I are a team and afford each other mutual respect. We discuss things, compromise and come to some agreement before we act or make a decision. If it weren't that way, we'd be in Christian counseling until we were. I would never put up with a "Christian" husband who lorded his "Bilbical authority" over me.

 

This is my marriage except about the part of him praying. My dh is not a christian but we have this marriage. Its funny he doesn't pray or seek Gods will about stuff but he respects that I do. He will feel sttrongly about a move and then ask me have I prayed about it will I support the move:D

[kmacnchs]

Daisy, I have decided that...

 

I am SOO not good at getting my point across on the 'puter and yet, I keep trying :) I do not think that your example is being un-submissive b/c you are saying it respectfully and because you are still giving him the final say...no one's dh is perfect (sadly, neither are we wives) and this is the ONE area ($$$) where my dh and I do not see everything the same way. I am not "in charge" of the $$ - I am just more aware of $$ than he is. He was raised that there will always be $$ so do whatever you want with it whereas I was raised to penny-pinch b/c you never know...(fwiw, we are not in debt except for mortgage, however, we do not have anything in savings either) not sure how to get my point across without going into everything too deeply except to say this -

 

if we only "submit" when we agree, is it really submission? I could say the same about children obeying your parents...I know others say that is a horrible comparison b/c they are not the same (and I am not saying that) but they are similar (esp. with teenagers - as their "obedience" is more of a "submission out of love").

 

If my will was the same as his, I would not be submitting, I would be agreeing. When I submit, I am putting myself under his leadership (willingly). Most of the time in our marriage, I agree. Sometimes, I submit. Sadly, sometimes, I argue :( If I do not agree (and it is not something unbiblical he is asking me to do), I will (hopefully) choose to submit and if it becomes unsettling in my mind, I will talk to him about it later but if I say, "no, I'm not going to do it b/c ...", that is not submitting...just saying - trying to keep with the definition of submission...

 

As far as having adult conversations in front of my children - I think we don't do it b/c ours are so little. We wait to have a lot of our conversations when they are in another room so there are less interruptions (ours are 4, 2.5, and 1).

 

I hope I explained better?

[kmacnchs]

That's called mutual submission and THAT'S what the Bible teaches.

 

Where on EARTH does the Bible talk about MUTUAL submission? I have never read such a thing! I am truly wondering!

 

As I already posted: my fault for being a bad 'computer discusser' - I am NOT afraid to speak to my dh. I grew up being afraid of my dad and I am so delighted and thankful every minute that that is not my relationship with my dh at all!

 

I think I sorta addressed your other points in my previous post...

[Mrs Mungo]

Where on EARTH does the Bible talk about MUTUAL submission? I have never read such a thing! I am truly wondering!

 

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:21

 

5:26-33

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.” This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Mrs Mungo

[Joanne]

Joanne, I was hoping that you would chime in here, knowing a bit of your story...

 

I don't really live out a "wifely submission" role in our home and at times that does frustrate my dh because he wants to play the card "I am the head of the house!" And I just toss that card in the trash, so to speak... I do my best to be respectful of him in all the areas he has earned respect. To me, respect is earned... and honoring someone for their headship is fine, but that doesn't mean, to me, that he and he alone is to be the one calling the shots... I believe that both partners should be striving to honor God, respecting each other and caring about each other's needs...

 

Bee, when you left your former situation, did you do any mental health "work" on the nature and dynamic of abusive situations?

 

I'm concerned for you because your questions in the OP aren't about "submission". They show both a skewed understanding of submission (if you believe in wife only submission, which I don't) and a skewed idea of baseling-acceptable and the functioning of the spousal relationship.

 

Those who practice a healthy as it can be wife only submission will tell you that it's not about being passive, unequal or having to find "lines" where they might have to take a stand.

 

I'd have to know more about the context of when your DH wants to play the "Head of Household" card.

[kmacnchs]

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:21

 

This verse (as I understand it) is part of a large section about the church being one, working as one, etc. and this verse is speaking of fellow church members, submitting to one another in brotherly love.

 

Ephesians 5:22 is part of a new section, and says, "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord". PLEASE tell me there are no Christians who think there is MUTUAL submission between them and the Lord!

 

5:26-33

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.†This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

 

My submitting to my dh does not take away from his loving me as Christ loved the church! I was speaking of MY role and what I do, because that is what the OP was speaking about. Our pastor says all the time that if a husband loves his wife as he should (what you quoted above), she will LOVE to submit to him! It is still a struggle to submit to my dh all of the time but it is not b/c he does not love me as he should. It is because of my sinful nature and (not to blame too much on my parents) how I was raised (encouraged to talk back to teachers, coaches, etc. and NEVER submit to ANYONE).

[Mrs Mungo]

My submitting to my dh does not take away from his loving me as Christ loved the church! I was speaking of MY role and what I do, because that is what the OP was speaking about. Our pastor says all the time that if a husband loves his wife as he should (what you quoted above), she will LOVE to submit to him! It is still a struggle to submit to my dh all of the time but it is not b/c he does not love me as he should. It is because of my sinful nature and (not to blame too much on my parents) how I was raised (encouraged to talk back to teachers, coaches, etc. and NEVER submit to ANYONE).

 

I didn't speak to any of that, I was just answering your question, there are Biblical commands on both sides, that was the point.

[OnTheBrink]

Joanne, I was hoping that you would chime in here, knowing a bit of your story...

 

I don't really live out a "wifely submission" role in our home and at times that does frustrate my dh because he wants to play the card "I am the head of the house!" And I just toss that card in the trash, so to speak... I do my best to be respectful of him in all the areas he has earned respect. To me, respect is earned... and honoring someone for their headship is fine, but that doesn't mean, to me, that he and he alone is to be the one calling the shots... I believe that both partners should be striving to honor God, respecting each other and caring about each other's needs...

 

If he's pulling the "I'm the head of the house!" card, then HE'S not loving you as Christ loved the church. He's behaving like a bully (note: I'm not saying he IS a bully, but if he's lording his position over you, he's sure ACTING like one).

[katemary63]

My submitting to my dh does not take away from his loving me as Christ loved the church! I was speaking of MY role and what I do, because that is what the OP was speaking about. Our pastor says all the time that if a husband loves his wife as he should (what you quoted above), she will LOVE to submit to him! It is still a struggle to submit to my dh all of the time but it is not b/c he does not love me as he should. It is because of my sinful nature and (not to blame too much on my parents) how I was raised (encouraged to talk back to teachers, coaches, etc. and NEVER submit to ANYONE).

 

The point is that Christ loved the Church by submitting to her's needs, by giving His very life for Her. He served the Church. He washed the feet of his disciples to symbolize his humility and service to the Church. He didn't rise up and shout, "I am King, do as I say!". Instead, He laid down and died, giving all He had to give for Her sake." If that's not submission, I don't know what is. Since husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the Church, they are to submit to their wives. What that means is to put their own wants and desires aside (lie down and die to themselves) and do what is best for their wives and their relationship with their wives. THAT is what husbands are supposed to do. It has nothing to do with being the "boss" and making all the decisions just because he is the "boss". It's a LOVE act of service (picture your husband washing your feet) and it would NEVER act bossy or authoritatively towards it's loved one. NEVER. I think your problem is the idea in your mind of what submission means. The Bible doesn't say, "Husbands submit to your wifes," because what it asks of them is a step even further then that. They are to die to themselves in service of their wifes. I would propose to you that husbands are called to "submit" much more then wives are. But not the kind you are thinking of. A loving, Biblical husband, when reminded that there wasn't enough money to eat out tonight, would respecfully and gratefully say, "Oh, well if you don't think we have the money, then lets go home and make pizza!" His own desires would be "submitted" to his families needs and his marital relationship in a Christlike way.

Edited August 3, 2010 by katemary63

[Blessed]

whatever answer you desire if you come to these boards for an answer. If you want God's answer, the only one that matters, ask Him, in Jesus' name, fasting if necessary and wait for His answer, and He will reveal it to you because He does not want you to be in the dark concerning His will. Don't worry about how others will "vote" on what God the Father speaks to you. Just seek the Lord. He loves you more than any of us, more than your husband, more than you know.

 

"For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly." Psalm 84:11

[simka2]

Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ. Ephesians 5:21

 

5:26-33

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— for we are members of his body. “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.†This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

 

Just wanted to add that these are not seperate sections. The chapters and verses were added long after the scriptures were originally written, and this one of the examples of how those breaks can really jack with interpretation!!!!!!

 

These were meant to flow together...

[kmacnchs]

ETA: this is in response to KateMary63 - sorry, I forgot to clarify previously...

 

submitting means to put yourself under one's authority. Christ was a servant, yes, but he never put himself under anyone's authority, except God's.

 

as I said before, telling how I submit to dh is just that...I am not saying that husbands do not have their own commands from God...I thought the OP was talking about wives submitting to their husbands and our opinions on that - which is what I was giving.

 

Mentioning something to your husband could or could not be argumentative (depends on the situation, tone, your heart, etc.) but I have learned in my few years of marriage that not EVERYTHING needs to be a discussion (hard for us women to hear) and 'ok' with a smile is sufficient sometimes.

Edited August 3, 2010 by kmacnchs

[Alenee]

I haven't had to really 'draw lines' for the most part. Dh and I are best friends and after 5 years of a horrible marriage, we have found a ton of mutual respect.

 

I did however have to strongly put my two cents in recently. It had to do with one of our kids and her emotional issues. Dh hasn't ever really wanted to address it. I was finally able to word my opinion well enough for him to 'get it'. After a few days of watching her, he came to me and agreed that we needed to seek some help for her. This is the first time in 10 years that we've had any issues and I believe that because we are both submissive to God, it worked out for the best.